The New Order : Last Days of Europe Development

Hippie Spiro Agnew 01-Feb-21 06:45 AM

I claim this chat for Russia

Hippie Spiro Agnew I claim this chat for Russia

Fedacking 03-Feb-21 06:33 PM

pay your taxes

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Oveja 03-Feb-21 06:39 PM

not being able to work on RFK is giving me an aneurysm

6

Fetti (Lil Break) 04-Feb-21 08:41 AM

can i implement tt on warlords that don't know how to count yet

Fedacking 04-Feb-21 11:53 AM

@UnbetrayedSolanum whenever I am given git Access, I have a package of changes for TT: 1: Make Income Tax proportional to GDP 2: Remove the Other income 5% of gdp 3: Remove the cost of private healthcare 4: Tooltip for detailing income tax calculations 5: Tooltip for detailing business tax calculations 6: Show that socdev changes business tax 7: Poverty effects tooltip

Fetti (Lil Break) can i implement tt on warlords that don't know how to count yet

the 04-Feb-21 01:20 PM

it's better to coordinate Russia TT integration with Thunder

Fetti (Lil Break) 04-Feb-21 01:21 PM

Yeah I'm coordinating with him, just waiting the storm to pass and the git to be available

Fedacking 05-Feb-21 08:13 PM

@UnbetrayedSolanum Poverty has no effects right now

want me to transform the old socdev into an dynamic modifier?

based on this

4

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 07:28 AM

can confirm poverty rate doesnt work, i have 4% poverty rate rn and the socdev is still on 25%-50%

4

iberian welfare ftw

Fetti (Lil Break) 06-Feb-21 09:54 AM

Just don't be poor

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:05 AM

i think i reached 0% poverty rate

1

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:11 AM

don't be poor achieved

who? (break) i think i reached 0% poverty rate

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:11 AM

Income tax screenshot pls

the revenue part

Fetti (Lil Break) 06-Feb-21 10:21 AM

Did some small cleaning on the leftovers of Britanny but I can't clean these cause idk what to do

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:23 AM

@Fedacking later

its 1 am

not sure if its like accurate since like

i set it to another value i forgot after the whole -150% tax rate

1

Fetti (Lil Break) Did some small cleaning on the leftovers of Britanny but I can't clean these cause idk what to do

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:30 AM

if = { limit = { BRT = { has_completed_focus = BRT_shut_down_the_black_market } }

in the komi tree

in that line it says

the game is asking if brittany has completed a focus that doesn't exists

what should be done there is remove this if = limit and make it always fire the effect (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 06-Feb-21 10:35 AM

Done

pushing

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:48 AM

@moyme should effects that depend lorewise on BRT having a blackmarket default to yes or no?

NIK_natsoc_a_contest_for_bretagne

in particular

the 06-Feb-21 10:48 AM

depending on what's about I think it's better to just remove the effect

the depending on what's about I think it's better to just remove the effect

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:49 AM

this is a focus for fascist komi

Oveja 06-Feb-21 06:50 PM

By the way

How do I calculate/get the correct GDP for Mexico in 1962?

Considering for inflation and all that

Oveja How do I calculate/get the correct GDP for Mexico in 1962?

OPAsian 06-Feb-21 06:51 PM

I just use the statistic Google provides me and go from there tbh

The "Calculated in 1960 Dollars" is something i just ignore for the life of me

Way too much effort

Oveja 06-Feb-21 06:54 PM

15,2 billion dollars

Oveja 15,2 billion dollars

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 07:03 PM

inflation calculator

also take in account if major sources of wealth or for any reason in this tl GDP should be lower

and in general the gdp of the entire world is lower

usa lost quite a chunk

if it's 15.2 billion dollars in 1962 it would be 14.9 billion in 1960

Oveja 06-Feb-21 07:05 PM

Alright, thank you

Mexico would actually have a higher GDP

Oveja Mexico would actually have a higher GDP

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 07:05 PM

what's the reasoning? not familiar with mexico history

Oveja 06-Feb-21 07:05 PM

Slightly but still noticeable

Fedacking what's the reasoning? not familiar with mexico history

Oveja 06-Feb-21 07:06 PM

Trade with Japan and early american oil dependency on Mexico during WW2

Mexico is in a slightly better position overall and can exploit its central position and neutral stance to foster trade

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 08:34 PM

does business tax rate get modified in any nation

who? (break) does business tax rate get modified in any nation

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 08:34 PM

no afaik

let me check

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 08:35 PM

taxation law should also probably modify business tax rate

who? (break) taxation law should also probably modify business tax rate

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 08:35 PM

ireland, England and usa have effects relating to it

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 08:35 PM

cool

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 08:36 PM

also oops

subtract_from_variable = { income_tax_rate = 1.5 } subtract_from_variable = { business_tax_rate = 1.5 }

time to fix this

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 08:36 PM

obligatory TT economy post

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 08:36 PM

@Internetismean see above (edited)

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 08:36 PM

free market capitalism works

Oveja 06-Feb-21 08:42 PM

Debnt

Mexico after the player dumps the entire federal budget into the Olympics

Battlefrog 06-Feb-21 09:27 PM

Anyone have the link to the TT reference doc?

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 09:42 PM

@Fedacking

who? (break) @Fedacking

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 09:49 PM

when income tax revenue is 2 times your gdp

bottom text

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 09:49 PM

well tax rate is not really accurate

Battlefrog Anyone have the link to the TT reference doc?

the 06-Feb-21 09:49 PM

this? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M2zlfq4sJ0f_50rsH2_oP8B29TPVjGE5Nm19HIj59xo/edit?usp=sharing

Toolbox Theory Reference

Policy Effectiveness Overview Policy Effectiveness represents precisely what one may assume it represents - the effectiveness of a given law. For example, a low-effectiveness racial integration mechanic represents widespread institutional racism despite de jure integration. Support for a policy ...

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 09:50 PM

@Fedacking tomorrow you can give me the iberia starting tax rate and see how much it really is

Battlefrog 06-Feb-21 09:55 PM

yuh thx @the

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:03 PM

@UnbetrayedSolanum I was looking over the costs of the policies. By my calculation the NHS in 1960 costed about 42 bucks per person, rather than 420 for free universal health care. Is there a particular reason you choose that number?

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:04 PM

weed lmao @Fedacking

1

UnbetrayedSolanum 06-Feb-21 10:05 PM

I wasn't sure if the NHS counted as free universal health care

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:06 PM

Services were provided free at the point of use; Services were financed from central taxation; Everyone was eligible for care (even people temporarily resident or visiting the country).

this is from wikipedia

I mean your number is back accurate for Bernie Sanders M4A, tho medical techonology has improved by a lot

and US health care costs are very high

Current NHS costs are less at $338 (1960) per capita (edited)

the 06-Feb-21 10:14 PM

ok so I was messing with policy effectiveness effects and I noticed two things -The dynamic modifiers aren't updated immediately after the variables are changed, it's only updated daily but this can be easily fixed with force_update_dynamic_modifier -the policy effectiveness monthly variables and modifiers doesn't work at all since there isn't a monthly pulse executing it gonna fix both bugs

the ok so I was messing with policy effectiveness effects and I noticed two things -The dynamic modifiers aren't updated immediately after the variables are changed, it's only updated daily but this can be easily fixed with force_update_dynamic_modifier -the policy effectiveness monthly variables and modifiers doesn't work at all since there isn't a monthly pulse executing it gonna fix both bugs

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:14 PM

yeah I noticed number 2 as well

@who? (break) reported it

also

if you're fixing that

take in account that some of them are misspelled

I think security monthly is misspelled

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:15 PM

release ready

1

the 06-Feb-21 10:15 PM

I mean it's better knowing this now than after it's released

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:15 PM

also yes make health care cheaper

@the while youre at it can you make the top 10 economy gui movable

the 06-Feb-21 10:18 PM

sure

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:18 PM

in general spending is out of control in TNO

every policy cost 2-10 times more than in real life 1960 (edited)

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:19 PM

i am running a 100 billion deficit

1

who? (break) i am running a 100 billion deficit

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:19 PM

oil crisis?

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:19 PM

@Fedacking nah just the old bug

the 06-Feb-21 10:21 PM

@who? (break)

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:22 PM

@UnbetrayedSolanum Can I try to rebalance the costs of the policies across the board? Almost all spending and income is an order of magnitude too big

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:22 PM

you can move it around right?

the 06-Feb-21 10:23 PM

yeah

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:23 PM

also -0.02% poverty rate lmao

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 10:23 PM

oh yeah

that should be capped

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:24 PM

poor people in toolbox theory economy

the 06-Feb-21 10:24 PM

tt be like

10

~~it's not actually because of TT~~

9

who? (break) 06-Feb-21 10:26 PM

overall economy experience is...sorta nice, still lots of stuff to be hooked up and bugs to be fixed main concern is that theres mostly lack/hidden explanation that makes it more or less just looking at the final numbers

nuclear gui enabling you to nuke the world is probably the best addition

cold war gui is fucked and i can't even click on most tabs because im poor and have a small screen

anyway seeing nunbers go back up after like 6 years of 40 billiom deficit is nice

the 06-Feb-21 10:57 PM

tfw there are still some remnants of code to change a policy by spending 50 pp

@UnbetrayedSolanum is there any reason why some policies have Ideology Drift Defense as effects?

UnbetrayedSolanum 06-Feb-21 11:01 PM

No clue

the @UnbetrayedSolanum is there any reason why some policies have Ideology Drift Defense as effects?

Fedacking 06-Feb-21 11:01 PM

Flavor

the 06-Feb-21 11:32 PM

policy tooltip now should show what's actually the effect of the respective policy (not all are implemented yet) (edited)

Eternal Iberian 07-Feb-21 04:35 AM

I know this is somewhat nitpicky but

would there be a way to reduce the expenditure of certain policies as poverty decreases?

fore example foodstamps at the start of the policy would be given to lots of people but as poverty decreased less people would need them

Eternal Iberian I know this is somewhat nitpicky but

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 07:11 AM

It is possible, yeah

who? (break) 07-Feb-21 08:15 AM

@Fedacking in celebration of negative construction budget

6

who? (break) @Fedacking in celebration of negative construction budget

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 08:16 AM

based

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 09:35 AM

We still gotta modify the manpower numbers IMO laws like minorities and racial integration should only make the number go up, starting from 0%

Masterbobli 07-Feb-21 09:41 AM

IMO these number should be depend on the demographics and perspectives (edited)

This is especially the case for countries in Africa. For the RKs, the locals are the race to be integrated, but for the African nations lead by local people, the settlers are the race to be integrated (edited)

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 07-Feb-21 09:44 AM

frankly things like minorities and racial integration should depend on demographics

you can't have a racial integration policy affecting your military manpower if say the country is mostly homogenous

the value of that policy would be scaled down hard

Eternal Iberian 07-Feb-21 09:46 AM

yeah the policy costs can vary a lot depending on a bunch of factors

OPAsian We still gotta modify the manpower numbers IMO laws like minorities and racial integration should only make the number go up, starting from 0%

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 09:48 AM

I disagree, they should be negative

just that they are too big now due to the fact that they got increased with the effectiveness changes

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) frankly things like minorities and racial integration should depend on demographics

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 09:49 AM

germanization bar

Fedacking germanization bar

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 07-Feb-21 09:49 AM

more progress bars...

Fedacking I disagree, they should be negative

Masterbobli 07-Feb-21 09:49 AM

Maybe we can reach a compromise. A terrible one will reduce while the good ones will increase

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) more progress bars...

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 09:50 AM

the real problem in doing that is that we would need to do the hard work of pinpointing how many minorities are in a country

and that is a lot of hardwork to have any kind of sensible numbers

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 07-Feb-21 09:50 AM

you could be going by some rough estimates, unless the current population numbers in states are not accurate

either that or a static number that will be inaccurate for most countries

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 09:59 AM

I'll take the opportunity here to begin doing general fixes and rebalance socdevs too as some of their debuffs are way too detrimental

Also wouldn't a lower efficiency racial integration "None Allowed" actually be higher than a higher efficiency "None Allowed?"

OPAsian Also wouldn't a lower efficiency racial integration "None Allowed" actually be higher than a higher efficiency "None Allowed?"

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 10:01 AM

More efficency means more gooder. I headcannon it as people that are not minorities avoiding the draft claiming ancestry

Or something like that

Fedacking More efficency means more gooder. I headcannon it as people that are not minorities avoiding the draft claiming ancestry

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 10:01 AM

hmm

fair enough

North China Unionist - 變性權利 07-Feb-21 10:48 AM

honestly if we wanted to properly model that racial integration law we'd have to add some sort of recruitment system (edited)

taking into account, say, state culture in relation to "accepted cultures", with various state modifiers etc

DocOverbuild3 07-Feb-21 11:09 AM

That was the original intention of the system I believe

There were accepted and unaccepted cultures

You'd have debuffs for having states of unaccepted cultures or something along those lines

Lamounier 07-Feb-21 11:22 AM

We can actually do that using state modifiers

It'd just be a pain to do so

who? (break) 07-Feb-21 11:33 AM

damn we making eu4 now too?

who? (break) damn we making eu4 now too?

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 11:35 AM

“””Convert Culture Button”””””””””””

OPAsian “””Convert Culture Button”””””””””””

scoodoop 07-Feb-21 11:36 AM

~~would be useful for blaney's ireland~~

scoodoop ~~would be useful for blaney's ireland~~

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 11:40 AM

OPAsian “””Convert Culture Button”””””””””””

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 07-Feb-21 11:57 AM

burgundy simplified

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 03:57 PM

@Lamounier right now income taxation depends entirely on the population

this can lead to a situation where the income taxes are greater than the gdp

see china for the most extreme example of this phenomenon

I wanted to make it so that it's proportional to gdp

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 04:00 PM

yes please

OPAsian yes please

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 04:01 PM

also we probably need to nerf the costs of policies across the board

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_year1960_0.html

this is a good chart

has population and cost for policies in the UK 1960

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 04:02 PM

sure go ahead We should probably also reduce how strong the income taxation laws are

OPAsian sure go ahead We should probably also reduce how strong the income taxation laws are

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 04:02 PM

or maybe change them to a factor

so that it becomes income_tax_rate*(1+law) (edited)

Fedacking or maybe change them to a factor

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 04:02 PM

i agree

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 04:03 PM

I'll push a batch of changes to that effect then

OPAsian 07-Feb-21 04:03 PM

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 04:03 PM

I was already testing that

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 05:21 PM

It is probablt income tax effect too weak (edited)

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 07-Feb-21 05:30 PM

@Fedacking got another nudge for you

the button to invest reserves into gdp does not work, you can select any amount but clicking 'invest reserves' does nothing

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 05:31 PM

:tcher: (edited)

Fedacking 07-Feb-21 05:39 PM

mhm, this taxation as a factor doesn't work

I'll rever this change

jesusツ - UwU 08-Feb-21 09:40 AM

@Fedacking this is my current Econ upon uniting west russia

jesusツ - UwU @Fedacking this is my current Econ upon uniting west russia

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 09:40 AM

admin cost seem really high

army is normal

also 0 business tax rate

jesusツ - UwU @Fedacking this is my current Econ upon uniting west russia

who? (break) 08-Feb-21 09:51 AM

Volkorel 08-Feb-21 01:09 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M2zlfq4sJ0f_50rsH2_oP8B29TPVjGE5Nm19HIj59xo/edit?usp=sharing

Toolbox Theory Reference

Policy Effectiveness Overview Policy Effectiveness represents precisely what one may assume it represents - the effectiveness of a given law. For example, a low-effectiveness racial integration mechanic represents widespread institutional racism despite de jure integration. Support for a policy ...

^Good for integrating

Volkorel https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M2zlfq4sJ0f_50rsH2_oP8B29TPVjGE5Nm19HIj59xo/edit?usp=sharing

Volkorel 08-Feb-21 01:10 PM

Pinned a message.

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:12 PM

@Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) "poverty growth from unemployment is unbalanced". this was a bug

(edited)

Fedacking @Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) "poverty growth from unemployment is unbalanced". this was a bug

(edited)

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 08-Feb-21 01:12 PM

yea we talked about it, nonetheless I had to include that in the report

Battlefrog 08-Feb-21 01:13 PM

whoops forgot about the acts

will fix those @Bamba

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) yea we talked about it, nonetheless I had to include that in the report

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:13 PM

I mean that it should have been in the bug section, rather than the balance section

@Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) "Emergency actions, as well as poverty rate need a tooltip that show effects" Poverty needs to have an effect before a tooltip can be made

Fedacking @Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) "Emergency actions, as well as poverty rate need a tooltip that show effects" Poverty needs to have an effect before a tooltip can be made

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 08-Feb-21 01:14 PM

but poverty does have effects, no?

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) but poverty does have effects, no?

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:15 PM

no

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 08-Feb-21 01:15 PM

w

motharchoddar 08-Feb-21 01:15 PM

Does the oil crisis cause a drop in GDP or anything like that

motharchoddar Does the oil crisis cause a drop in GDP or anything like that

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:15 PM

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/808375882291871755/808389256761311272/yt.PNG

motharchoddar Does the oil crisis cause a drop in GDP or anything like that

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 08-Feb-21 01:15 PM

no

motharchoddar 08-Feb-21 01:15 PM

would also be cool to have it give a sudden dip

so you'd see it on the graph

like a certain percentage of your gdp

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) no

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:17 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1otBUEkMoh21E68pZhbo9Hnfzx92mBP_KopoF3HPXrMs/edit

Downtown British Diplomacy

Downtown British Diplomacy Mechanic Or How To Make Diplomacy Rad & Cool For The KidsOverview:The british diplomacy mechanic would be one that tracks two variables, Influence and Tension. Influence is how much sway a foreign power has over Britain, the goal for either America or German...

motharchoddar 08-Feb-21 01:19 PM

what do you think about that @Fedacking

motharchoddar what do you think about that @Fedacking

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:20 PM

I think it's a cool idea

I would drop it by 10%-6%

Fedacking https://docs.google.com/document/d/1otBUEkMoh21E68pZhbo9Hnfzx92mBP_KopoF3HPXrMs/edit

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 08-Feb-21 01:21 PM

right now when you do the diplomacy branch you just wait for them to finish just to say 'OFN influence will increase' and that's it

motharchoddar 08-Feb-21 01:21 PM

probably reasonable

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 08-Feb-21 01:21 PM

also the bottom part of this branch has no effects

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) right now when you do the diplomacy branch you just wait for them to finish just to say 'OFN influence will increase' and that's it

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:21 PM

I know about this one, it makes me sad

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) also the bottom part of this branch has no effects

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:21 PM

this used to have English Economy effects @Battlefrog

Fedacking this used to have English Economy effects @Battlefrog

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 08-Feb-21 01:22 PM

I think this should also be revised along with Acts for TT then

you saw the Housing Act

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:22 PM

yep

Fedacking this used to have English Economy effects @Battlefrog

Battlefrog 08-Feb-21 01:22 PM

yuh gotta get on that soon (tm)

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:22 PM

it reduces poverty by 0.2% (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 08-Feb-21 01:28 PM

I think jesus point is valid

We can't hammer the player too much to handle the economy but simultaneously it is pretty much a fidget box from what I see

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 01:39 PM

@jesusツ - UwU

I would say to make the income atleast 1 billion To look something more like this maybe? (fedacking asked me to set the business tax variable )

fixed in the latest push

jesusツ - UwU 08-Feb-21 02:16 PM

im still wondering on how debt and GDP could be made so they matter more

Walker Of Chaos 08-Feb-21 02:18 PM

The only idea I’ve had is that you’d have a “cap” on how much you can spend on social and admin stuff and debt interests would count towards how much of the cap you’re using. But this would be both difficult to communicate to the player and not make much sense

Walker Of Chaos The only idea I’ve had is that you’d have a “cap” on how much you can spend on social and admin stuff and debt interests would count towards how much of the cap you’re using. But this would be both difficult to communicate to the player and not make much sense

OPAsian 08-Feb-21 02:18 PM

debt ceiling

Walker Of Chaos 08-Feb-21 02:18 PM

There’d also ofc be the possibility of generic “nice to have” things like pp, stability, research, production etc etc

OPAsian debt ceiling

Walker Of Chaos 08-Feb-21 02:19 PM

Crashing the economy with no survivors

I’m really sad that we had to scope cut Toolbox because debt and GDP would have been so much easier

You wouldn’t want high debt because that leads to you getting into a nations economic sphere and restricted market access

Good gdp would be good because it’d help with your economic sectors

etc etc

Walker Of Chaos I’m really sad that we had to scope cut Toolbox because debt and GDP would have been so much easier

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 02:22 PM

wait what was cut?

Walker Of Chaos 08-Feb-21 02:22 PM

I guess we could also maybe have a thing where massive debts penalize policy effectiveness and admin socdev?

Walker Of Chaos I guess we could also maybe have a thing where massive debts penalize policy effectiveness and admin socdev?

OPAsian 08-Feb-21 02:23 PM

That would be good

There should also be a way to control the debt tho

Critical Existence Failure wait what was cut?

Walker Of Chaos 08-Feb-21 02:23 PM

Most of TT economy, lemme grab the original doc if its still around

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 02:23 PM

huh

Critical Existence Failure huh

Walker Of Chaos 08-Feb-21 02:25 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yKY5qnp1p1t99y9sJ-NxfHhmn_CnZYbf3NT1PxvKXAo/edit tl;dr employment split across different sectors (agriculture, industry, services etc etc), arms market, buying and selling actual resources, different currencies with different strengths, regional markets

TNO Economy Proposal

The New Order: Last Days of Europe - Economy Proposal References: Economy Suggestion Document Current Economic Issues Statement of Intent: To make the economy mechanic into a realistic, functional, and meaningful mechanic that has significant relevance within gameplay, and is integrated into...

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 02:25 PM

damn, well hope we can add this in the future

Walker Of Chaos 08-Feb-21 02:25 PM

Got cut because the CRF and TT bottlenecks were murder on team morale

But I really really wish we can get em back someday because right now the economy is just a number

OPAsian There should also be a way to control the debt tho

Walker Of Chaos 08-Feb-21 02:27 PM

We do have buttons for repaying debt rn. But I guess we could also like have a controllable policy letting you automatically pay x% of your income into the debt

Fetti (Lil Break) 08-Feb-21 05:23 PM

I think

Personally, having a natspirit that affects when the player has a good or bad economy

Would give a gameplay edge to it

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 05:46 PM

^

we could honestly give every country a dynamic modifier called idk "State of the Economy: [scripted loc]" and run a weekly check for certain parameters

North China Unionist - 變性權利 we could honestly give every country a dynamic modifier called idk "State of the Economy: [scripted loc]" and run a weekly check for certain parameters

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 05:47 PM

how would that affect how fast the game runs though

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 05:48 PM

it would certainly affect it, but I doubt the effect to be that large 1) It's a weekly check 2) It mostly boils down to simple mathematical calculations sure, those are being executed across every tag, but the game already does that on a much larger scale every hourly tick

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 05:49 PM

oh huh

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 05:49 PM

I mean hell you could even code a test event that runs every week and executes a shitload of calculations as a benchmark

North China Unionist - 變性權利 we could honestly give every country a dynamic modifier called idk "State of the Economy: [scripted loc]" and run a weekly check for certain parameters

jesusツ - UwU 08-Feb-21 05:52 PM

Goring has something like this iirc

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 05:55 PM

honestly I think we should adopt an Ultravis dev stance for TT Go with the craziest, most ambitious shit you can think of and then cut down

North China Unionist - 變性權利 honestly I think we should adopt an Ultravis dev stance for TT Go with the craziest, most ambitious shit you can think of and then cut down

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 06:03 PM

we already did

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 06:04 PM

NOT ULTRAVISIONARY ENOUGH

North China Unionist - 變性權利 NOT ULTRAVISIONARY ENOUGH

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 06:04 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yKY5qnp1p1t99y9sJ-NxfHhmn_CnZYbf3NT1PxvKXAo/edit

TNO Economy Proposal

The New Order: Last Days of Europe - Economy Proposal References: Economy Suggestion Document Current Economic Issues Statement of Intent: To make the economy mechanic into a realistic, functional, and meaningful mechanic that has significant relevance within gameplay, and is integrated into...

the 08-Feb-21 06:04 PM

btw are the tutorials still planned?

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 06:04 PM

this is already cut down

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 06:04 PM

NOT ENOUGH

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 06:04 PM

as is sadly

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 06:05 PM

Every player must weep and apply to an economics school after one hour of TNO gameplay

North China Unionist - 變性權利 Every player must weep and apply to an economics school after one hour of TNO gameplay

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 06:05 PM

LINE GO UUUUUUUUUUP

the 08-Feb-21 06:55 PM

got collapsible policies working (it doesn't look too nice because of limitations with dynamic lists )

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 06:58 PM

Critical Existence Failure 08-Feb-21 07:03 PM

Kyiv_Worker 08-Feb-21 07:04 PM

CPR 08-Feb-21 07:26 PM

hot

jesusツ - UwU 08-Feb-21 07:37 PM

Finally no more scrolling for half a year

North China Unionist - 變性權利 it would certainly affect it, but I doubt the effect to be that large 1) It's a weekly check 2) It mostly boils down to simple mathematical calculations sure, those are being executed across every tag, but the game already does that on a much larger scale every hourly tick

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 08:13 PM

it's like 1 calculus because I would use GDP per capita for state of the economy

maybe 2 if we use debt as another effect

Volkorel 08-Feb-21 08:23 PM

I just had a ctd after clicking Kingdom of England in country select screen, TT branch

Weirdly enough error log doesn't mention anything, so gonna test this again

Alrighty solved, was a typo mistake in Göring focus file with using "mid" instead of "med"

Kyiv_Worker 08-Feb-21 08:29 PM

Always Göring...

6

Fedacking 08-Feb-21 08:57 PM

@North China Unionist - 變性權利 it should be monthly the effect because everything else is montly

North China Unionist - 變性權利 08-Feb-21 09:18 PM

aight then

Fetti (Lil Break) 09-Feb-21 05:22 AM

For the NatSpirit, instead of weekly, I propose monthly yeah

Not only does it "alleviates" since the game already takes forever to load each month

But also gives time to a player to "fix" things

DocOverbuild3 09-Feb-21 09:46 AM

You guys are trying to reinvent the wheel when we’ve already got a Model-T

Legit this is the system I did for Burgundy

And everything you need to get a good metric of a country’s fiscal health is already in game

You don’t need to gum up the system and add even more stuff that won’t matter and won’t affect stuff (edited)

Stuff like actual meaningful spheres and trading, sure

But unless you want to rework the system fully, I don’t really see the need to tack all this extra stuff on here

DocOverbuild3 And everything you need to get a good metric of a country’s fiscal health is already in game

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 10:34 AM

so we should expand your burgundy system to the rest of the world? (edited)

who? (break) 09-Feb-21 10:50 AM

whats your burgundy system though

i keep hearing this but i never see it

who? (break) whats your burgundy system though

OPAsian 09-Feb-21 10:51 AM

some kind of burgundian system

6

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 11:14 AM

@the why did you remove the cost per capita tooltip of elite only education? (edited)

Nekronion 09-Feb-21 11:23 AM

Is it possible to make the sliders adjustable by mouse pulling (Not just by clicking)? (edited)

Nekronion Is it possible to make the sliders adjustable by mouse pulling (Not just by clicking)? (edited)

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 11:32 AM

no

DocOverbuild3 09-Feb-21 11:45 AM

@Fedacking I’ll do a type up later, but yes, I think it’s the only viable way to make economics matter to gameplay without reworking the entire system entirely

DocOverbuild3 @Fedacking I’ll do a type up later, but yes, I think it’s the only viable way to make economics matter to gameplay without reworking the entire system entirely

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 11:54 AM

Fedacking @the why did you remove the cost per capita tooltip of elite only education? (edited)

the 09-Feb-21 11:54 AM

I'm dumb

the I'm dumb

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 11:56 AM

no you're not, you're just brazilian that's all

2

Walker Of Chaos 09-Feb-21 12:47 PM

have i gone exchange or is the security policy no longer in game?

like its effects are there but it doesn't seem to be listed under social policies

Internetismean 09-Feb-21 12:57 PM

@Fedacking Does the income tax rate naturally increase through the game?

Internetismean @Fedacking Does the income tax rate naturally increase through the game?

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 12:59 PM

it shouldn't

Walker Of Chaos have i gone exchange or is the security policy no longer in game?

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 12:59 PM

it should be there

who? (break) 09-Feb-21 01:00 PM

it exists

Fedacking it should be there

Walker Of Chaos 09-Feb-21 01:03 PM

I confirmed that countries had security policies and I could see em on other cohntries list of laws in the diplo screen. But I couldn’t see it on my own screen under “social policies”

Will look more into it tomorrow

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 01:07 PM

@the did you change the policies with the list up down thingy?

the 09-Feb-21 01:08 PM

no, maybe the array isn't rendering this law

@Walker Of Chaos can you post a screenshot

Walker Of Chaos 09-Feb-21 01:09 PM

Gimme a min

the @Walker Of Chaos can you post a screenshot

Walker Of Chaos 09-Feb-21 01:15 PM

https://i.gyazo.com/e50d5a4a7b00835d0cb686cf65d40cdc.png

OPAsian 09-Feb-21 01:17 PM

something somethíng defund the police

the 09-Feb-21 01:25 PM

found the issue, it's in the wrong position

@Walker Of Chaos find TNO_category_4_law_tno_security and change the y value to 0

Walker Of Chaos 09-Feb-21 01:26 PM

Kinda turned off my computer after that and headed off to prepare for bed

the 09-Feb-21 01:27 PM

it's fine

@Fedacking could you fix this

the @Fedacking could you fix this

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 01:29 PM

in a couple of hours

studyinf rn

the @Walker Of Chaos find TNO_category_4_law_tno_security and change the y value to 0

Flaxbeard 09-Feb-21 01:36 PM

I can tweak rn

the 09-Feb-21 01:37 PM

thanks

DocOverbuild3 09-Feb-21 01:42 PM

@Fedacking Anyway

Just to simplify because I don’t have a lot of time

Every nation, as has been suggested, should get an economic dynamic modified

I’d you have a good economy

Defined as a GDPPC above a certain point, measured as the benchmark for what an “average” economy, you get scaling buffs

Below that, you get debuffs

This benchmark could change and shift during the game as a nations baseline economy changes

Eternal Iberian 09-Feb-21 01:45 PM

talking about the baseline changing

that seems like something that should be counted on in the policy levels

Poverty in the early 60s wont be the same as in the late 70s

and it would solve problems for far future stuff like how to deal with nations having extremely low poverty in the 70s (edited)

DocOverbuild3 This benchmark could change and shift during the game as a nations baseline economy changes

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 01:48 PM

where is your burgundy code for the economy?

Eternal Iberian and it would solve problems for far future stuff like how to deal with nations having extremely low poverty in the 70s (edited)

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 01:48 PM

extremely low poverty in the 70s shouldn't ha[[en

Eternal Iberian 09-Feb-21 01:49 PM

then most nations with content have to be rebalanced

to have their buffs be much more gradual and slower (edited)

But I dont want to talk here much or discuss it cause Im not part of TT team :p

Eternal Iberian to have their buffs be much more gradual and slower (edited)

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 01:52 PM

Poverty is right now much more gradual and slower

Eternal Iberian 09-Feb-21 01:52 PM

DocOverbuild3 09-Feb-21 03:46 PM

@Fedacking called like Burgundy Econ scripted effects or soemthing

In the scripted effects file

Fetti (Lil Break) 09-Feb-21 04:11 PM

I felt like doing this since I saw no document for it, but I made a doc with all Law and Social Development Effects

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-OKFk33tjMcta8FU3sxLNxZrBrC3qnLavxf7Q1CK6ek/edit?usp=sharing

Toolbox Theory - List of Law Effects And Social Developments

Political Parties Religious Rights Trade Unions Imigration Policies Slavery Public Meetings Press Rights Voter Franchise Refugees Military Policies Train...

It's really rough but I'll pretty it up later

Just wanted to get it out there

DocOverbuild3 @Fedacking called like Burgundy Econ scripted effects or soemthing

Fedacking 09-Feb-21 04:13 PM

whenever I have time I'll implement that globally plus poverty effects

Fetti (Lil Break) 09-Feb-21 05:28 PM

these functions don't exist and idk how much it would increase so I'll keep these for now

CPR 09-Feb-21 05:43 PM

It probably does exist, but it's in a swap_idea block for some reason

Needs to be put outside of that

Oveja 09-Feb-21 07:06 PM

what does Admin Efficiency do btw

Oveja what does Admin Efficiency do btw

Critical Existence Failure 09-Feb-21 07:09 PM

see fetti's doc

or actually

someone should pin fetti's doc tbh

Oveja 09-Feb-21 07:11 PM

Oh it's a socdev

Aight, thank you

Critical Existence Failure 09-Feb-21 07:11 PM

np

Fetti (Lil Break) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-OKFk33tjMcta8FU3sxLNxZrBrC3qnLavxf7Q1CK6ek/edit?usp=sharing

Oveja 09-Feb-21 07:12 PM

Pinned a message.

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 06:15 AM

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:15 AM

yeah thats a big problem

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 06:15 AM

OPAsian

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:16 AM

Honestly

I wish we could have Construction and Research rework

actually tbh

why cant we?

Yes it will delay the Patch greatly

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:16 AM

I really really think we should have the research and arms market

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:17 AM

the issues with TT has been in every of my tests

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:17 AM

Use arms market to do basic econ spheres

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:17 AM

it just doesent add much apart from things to look at

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:17 AM

If your economy goes shit you get tied to a major and can only buy from them (edited)

Walker Of Chaos Use arms market to do basic econ spheres

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:17 AM

Market Rework was also discussed

Bamba Market Rework was also discussed

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:17 AM

Not even the market, just the “minors don’t make own weapons and buy guns from supers” would be great on its own

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:18 AM

almost everything is just cosmetic changes in TT and its honestly stale

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:18 AM

Though yes full market is best

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:18 AM

except now you have atleast a few chains blocking you

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:18 AM

Discussing it with the Devs

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:19 AM

you cant max out construction spending, cant boost or cut budgets

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:19 AM

if you have ideas put them here

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:19 AM

AB is the only nation i saw that changed the limits for sliders so far

jesusツ - UwU AB is the only nation i saw that changed the limits for sliders so far

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:19 AM

this

jesusツ - UwU AB is the only nation i saw that changed the limits for sliders so far

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 06:20 AM

smh that was because i ordered Fetti to do it

2

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:20 AM

why did we add econ spheres even, it serves almost nothing

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:21 AM

@who? (break) it was part of arms market before

iirc

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/743601814460694592/746099947920818206/econgui.png

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:22 AM

also it would be nice if doc writes up his burg system soon because it keeps floating around in discussions and yet i never saw how it worked

Bamba if you have ideas put them here

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:25 AM

Already mentioned: Arms Market Research System Rework Kinda new (I think I’ve mentioned some of em before) Socdev has a maintenance “cost”, if not paid it rgresses Change construction, you won’t have a construction budget but toe amount of free civs to gdp per capita (bad idea, just throwing it out there) Economic crashes negatively impact factory output and construction speed for capitalists (companies go under) System where player can spend cash on “contractors/state companies/whatever” to get specific targetted bonuses. Stuff like paying NaziBlocs Inc X Billion Reichsmark to design the new AryanChainsaw giving factories/socdev/whatever/this is a bad idea Most of these are bad but hopefully someone can see them and come up with something better (edited)

the main problem is we need something that genuinely engages the player with the economy but also doesn't make the player feel like they need to check the economy tab every 5 minutes or they'll get fucked

The Xenophobic Fascist 10-Feb-21 06:29 AM

wasn't there a giant tree thing about TT reworks

lemme find it

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:29 AM

the economy proposal?

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:29 AM

i think your talking about valrins

doc

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:29 AM

yeah that's been deleted

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:30 AM

but i honestly i feel like TT needs a large scrop

scope

to do what its ment to do

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:30 AM

Valrins doc was about the resource rework and econ sectors + markets

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:30 AM

instead of old economy+ and then proper TT later on (edited)

Walker Of Chaos yeah that's been deleted

The Xenophobic Fascist 10-Feb-21 06:31 AM

yeah

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:32 AM

one thing that i want is GDP growth, debt interest and GDP to be more dynamic

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:32 AM

and if i were to be honest all of my test reports will probs just be it works but it needs to work better (insert bugs and such here)

its been like that for all of them so far

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:33 AM

ie say south africa lost in SAW, then increase interest rate and decrease GDP growth for a few months or so

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:34 AM

honestly this is probably a bad idea but i wonder if something simple like a button saying something like "our economic policy is keynesianism/austerity/nazi madness/whatever" with limited ability to toggle between em couldn't at least help some with engagement

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:34 AM

its strange how you can probably shoot up slaves in eastern europe but still maintain GDP growth

Internetismean 10-Feb-21 06:34 AM

Would it be possible to add unemployment back? Not necessarily have the wheel of sectors, just the percentage of unemployed people. The higher it is the more money you have to spend on social programs and the slower factories work

And then each nation could use it for particular stuff

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:35 AM

It doesn’t work though

Like that’s the issue

It’s a completely independent system

As I said before

The reason why it sucks right now, and I know that’s a powerful word but it’s the right one, is not because of the various new systems, but the fact there are no gameplay effects from your economy

Just attaching more variables to worry about won’t fix that

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:38 AM

yeah

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:38 AM

I believe the system needs to be redesigned as well

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:39 AM

no engagement = no fun

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:39 AM

Stuff like markets and sphere interaction is a good idea

BUT

Instead of just throwing up an idea salad that just exasperated the issue

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:39 AM

~~the economy was a misstake~~

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:39 AM

Every single thing in TT should be looked at with the question, “how does this affect gameplay and why should the player care?”

That’s what’s missing right now

And that’s why it, again harsh word but fair, sucks

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:40 AM

but yeah we'd need to look at fundamental interactions of the economy and how to relate it to everything

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:41 AM

I mainly say this because I don’t want the approach to become, “well if it’s not working let’s just flesh out and add to the existing system”

Because it’s that system itself where the problem lies

Not what is built on top of it

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:41 AM

In my ideal dream world I'd honestly like to give TT somewhere around 3 months dev time and just get it done fully properly

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:41 AM

I mean

It needs rhat at the bare minimum

This is nowhere near a releasable product

Unless you want the economy to still not matter

In which case it’s fine for now

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:42 AM

Yeah, the big problem is that TT simultaneously needs a massive scope

And is a bottleneck for the patch cycles

Which has resulted in not getting the proper attention

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:42 AM

We are discussing a plan in Dev Hole right now

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:42 AM

And putting us here right now

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:42 AM

replace TT with no expansion trees and after midnight

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:42 AM

You won’t have good patches unless you have a good TT

Like

That’s like trying to build a house when you forgot to finish the foundation

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:43 AM

from what ive seen so far most ostland paths are planning on using TT in some way

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 06:43 AM

ALL OF GUANGDONG AND MANCHKUO USES TT

5

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:43 AM

Yes

And I guarantee it’s not fun to play with the economy with them

Because there’s no tangible gameplay effects

Which is exactly my point

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:44 AM

current socdev and policy effectiveness is meh-good as it is, theres definitely room for policy effectiveness to be more dynamic

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:44 AM

Honestly this is kinda reminding me of pre release Japan

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:44 AM

If you build a country around economy built on a crappy Econ system

You’re not going to have a fun time playing with Econ

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:44 AM

And I think a similar mindset is needed

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:44 AM

Which is why this is such a huge issue

OPAsian ALL OF GUANGDONG AND MANCHKUO USES TT

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:44 AM

100 billion deficit manchukuo

Walker Of Chaos Honestly this is kinda reminding me of pre release Japan

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:45 AM

all i remember is burn it all down and rebuild it

jesusツ - UwU all i remember is burn it all down and rebuild it

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:45 AM

I fear that may be necessary

But I'll hold off for now while the Devs chat

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:45 AM

dynamic socdev increase is nice

admin socdev increase could do with more dynamicness than just max out budget = +2 monthly

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:47 AM

Please write here any ideas you have

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:47 AM

Burn down the house

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:47 AM

So I said I wouldn't say more but I'm also a liar. Anyways I feel like a fundamental question we as TNO will need to answer is what level of simulationism do we want the mod to represent?

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:47 AM

And that ain’t a joke either

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:47 AM

Do we want to represent the nitty gritty economic details of the cold war and the flaws and strengths of the superpowers bureaucracies?

If yes then we will need to burn things down and accept that TT won't be out untill late spring at the earliest

Do we want to focus more on narratives and themes of different paths? If yes then honestly a economy system might be a detriment and is best abstracted away

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:49 AM

Even if we just go with the Burgundian option of basic economy gameplay effects, that’s still going to be crappy for what we wanted to do

Unless you want option 2 in which case it works fine

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:49 AM

Where on the Crusader Kings-Victoria 2 axis do we want to fall?

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:49 AM

id suggest if we're reworking TT, we release AM and no expansion trees as filler

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:50 AM

No Expansion trees is not closed

AM is ??

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:50 AM

AM is fairly complete

last i heard about it

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 06:50 AM

No expansion is literally only me rn

3

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:51 AM

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:51 AM

No expansion trees should get contribs if we do it as filler

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:51 AM

I have a pretty radical course of action I’d like to see the team take but I’ll be quiet for now and see what’s decided first

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:51 AM

do we want it to be filler though?

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:51 AM

It won’t be pretty, but it’ll get the job done

Walker Of Chaos do we want it to be filler though?

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 06:51 AM

It was always filler

To be added when done

Hippie Spiro Agnew It was always filler

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:52 AM

More meant if we do no expansion trees and then TT later we'll likely need to redo a substantial part of the no expansion trees to fit (a hopefully) better economy system

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:52 AM

i feel like releasing more stuff for russia would be alot better than releasing half baked economy system

Walker Of Chaos More meant if we do no expansion trees and then TT later we'll likely need to redo a substantial part of the no expansion trees to fit (a hopefully) better economy system

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 06:53 AM

Theyre smallish and dont rely on econ stuff much

Hippie Spiro Agnew Theyre smallish and dont rely on econ stuff much

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:53 AM

ah alright

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:53 AM

most warlords get in terms of econ is socdev changes

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 06:53 AM

Mostly internal stuff

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 06:53 AM

imho

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:53 AM

econ stuff only comes in regional really

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:53 AM

kinda mixed up things and forgot Russia doesn't have econ at regional

(edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 06:53 AM

I'm actually implementing effectiveness on warlord decisions as we speak

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:54 AM

good pfp

2

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 06:54 AM

But, imo, I do feel TT doesn't really affect the player at all, as most said. The effects aren't something the player immediatly sees, and I feel a good, if a bit band-aid, would be to add a varied natspirit that gives bonuses to the state of the economy.

Is it ideal, not really

But it's as you guys said, right now it's a Bottleneck

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:55 AM

That’s the Burgundy solution

who? (break) good pfp

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 06:55 AM

thanks <3 (edited)

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:55 AM

gawr gura

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:55 AM

It’s already been implemented world wide I believe by Fed

Just the values need to be set

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:55 AM

frankly i would much rather see TT reworked than band aided to do something atleast

The Commie 10-Feb-21 06:55 AM

Adding bonuses/maluses to, factory output for example, would be a good way to give an effect to the economy ?

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:55 AM

Alrifht

Just gonna clarify this

Because we’re all saying the same thing

4

@Fetti (Lil Break) @The Commie that system already exists

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:55 AM

whats the burgundy solution tho

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:56 AM

It is being pushed world wide by Federakinf

@who? (break) nat spirit that gives buffs/debuffs depending on scale of the economy

Good economy = economic buffs and vice versa

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:56 AM

I think that there are other things we should expand on to make the game feel like a Cold War game and not a WW2 game with a different time slapped on it (edited)

Reaserch and COnstruction is two things

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:57 AM

wouldnt it make more sense as a dynamic modifier though @DocOverbuild3

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:57 AM

It is a dynamic

*dyno mod

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:57 AM

Speaking purely codewise I do think burning down the economy system and redoing it fro,m the ground up is the best solution. The main issue I see is administrative. If we burn down everything what do we occupy the rest of the team with for the couple of months we need to properly do TT? We can't just throw 200+ people into TT and expect a good result.

The Commie 10-Feb-21 06:57 AM

The problem is that virtually all debuffs/buffs that could be given by base HoI4 are useless. Who cares about producing equipment/training troops etc... if you never have a war to worry about ? In the end we would almost inevitably end up with "why care about the economy ?"

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:57 AM

The bottleneck curse

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:57 AM

You can see all the code to get a better look at it in the burgundy_econ scripted effects file

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 06:58 AM

ahh

Walker Of Chaos Speaking purely codewise I do think burning down the economy system and redoing it fro,m the ground up is the best solution. The main issue I see is administrative. If we burn down everything what do we occupy the rest of the team with for the couple of months we need to properly do TT? We can't just throw 200+ people into TT and expect a good result.

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:58 AM

My idea was first having a design phase then moving Sentribs to work on it In their own pace and when its ready the rest of the team

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:58 AM

@Walker Of Chaos I think it’s time for Docs Radical Solution of the day

@Bamba would you like me to dm my manifesto or just give it here?

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 06:58 AM

Delete TNO

3

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:58 AM

Don’t want it to get split up

Fetti (Lil Break) Delete TNO

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 06:58 AM

Pinned a message.

The Commie The problem is that virtually all debuffs/buffs that could be given by base HoI4 are useless. Who cares about producing equipment/training troops etc... if you never have a war to worry about ? In the end we would almost inevitably end up with "why care about the economy ?"

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 06:58 AM

thats why i think that economy shouldnt just affect that stuff i feel like a good economy should afffect the rest of the system

DocOverbuild3 @Bamba would you like me to dm my manifesto or just give it here?

Bamba 10-Feb-21 06:58 AM

Give it here

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:59 AM

Alright lemme get my VPN working so I can type on my laptop

4

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 06:59 AM

The Burgundian VPN...

Bamba My idea was first having a design phase then moving Sentribs to work on it In their own pace and when its ready the rest of the team

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:59 AM

There are strengths to that and I have my own thoughts but I think I should wait for Doc's manifesto

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 06:59 AM

I’m in AP Gov right now about to inspire a Second Cultural Revolution

3

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 06:59 AM

Chaimran Doc

Resurrect the Legion

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 06:59 AM

But yeah Russia wise, I was starting to add effectiveness to Russian Decisions

jesusツ - UwU thats why i think that economy shouldnt just affect that stuff i feel like a good economy should afffect the rest of the system

The Commie 10-Feb-21 07:00 AM

There would need to be a special effect for each country, and each path. A bad economy as the US would decrease your popularity, as Germany it would destabilize your regime, as Iberia decrease your stability etc... It would be long but it'd at least give some sort of gameplay effect

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:00 AM

Because I didn't want to spam tno_improve_policy_effectiveness to every goshdang focus effect

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 07:00 AM

anyways I'll be back in 1-2 hours, group project

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:01 AM

Just a heads up, I’ll be doing this in 2000 word chunks so save all questions/criticism for the end

DocOverbuild3 It’s already been implemented world wide I believe by Fed

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:01 AM

nah, I was going to do it

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:01 AM

Fucking laptop, REBOOT

Alright so, that didn’t work so I’ll just type it out from my phone.

1

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:10 AM

I think it’s best to first identify the issue at hand: How do we create a complex, yet not overbearing, economy simulation that also greatly affects gameplay so you can’t ignore it? It’s a question we have been asking ourselves for the past nearly year, with an economic rework to actually make that system matter always a top post release priority. However, I believe in the post release rush to right all of pre release TNO’s wrongs, we lost sight of the end goal. The economy as it exists right now it ignorable at best, and downright embarrassing at worst for what we want to do. It had absolutely no gameplay effects besides the tacked on Dyno Mod from Burgundy, and is just the same as the last one except with new graphs and ways to look at your number grow. We all acknowledge this issue, and we all agree on the basic ways to solve it, but there is just one issue: we are trying to find a way to make this rework as painless as possible to not take away from patch development, while patch development continuing based around this new system will ensure it will need to be reworked in the future. Let’s face facts: we don’t have the people or skill anymore to do both and instead of fully committing to one or the other both are continuing to suffer. The economy system will not be good unless it’s fully developed and realized, while the new patch countries will not have fun economic gameplay because the economy system sucks. It’s a bind we put ourself in by trying to build a house on top of a shifting foundation of sand that will quickly grow to swallow us and our work if we do not act quickly to get out. That may seem like an exaggeration, but I would like you to think of how long patch development already is taking, how little overall progress has been made, and how much work still needs to be done ON TOP OF making an economy that matters and integrating it into every single piece of content we’ve already made. The system we thought would work months ago is simply...

... Unsustainable today, and unless we do something quickly to arrest it, it will continue until work has bogged down to a standstill

Therefore, I would propose the following solution:

The main focus of this team should be based around the new TT system as well as the other extraneous pieces of content like AM or No Expansion Trees or other facelifts that don't require the use of said new system so we can get our house in order. The reason why I suggest this change is due to the composition of the team as it stands. From what I recall, each patch team right now has at the most 5 or so coders, with the great majority only have 1 and 2. These are incredibly skilled people, constantly pushing the boundaries of what TNO and indeed what HOI4 can do, but they are much too spread out to consistently and quickly get the work that needs to be done, done. The current system almost reminds me of the time before team consolidation, where 1 or 2 people would plug away creating 10 years for a nation, and if we want for all the patch nations to have the same level of depth, complexity, and engaging gameplay as the ones on release, that needs to change quickly. To ensure that all those things actually happen, we need to focus on actually creating the new systems the player will engage with. This would mean moving our most highly skilled people onto the development of TT to truly create a fleshed out and amazing new economic simulator that ties into gameplay at every corner, while everyone else works on so called "filler" content that expands on what we have, keeps the fans occupied, and gives the entire team something to do while building up their experience base. Only when we have firmly established this foundation and consolidated our resources will we be able to go back and look at patch developments with fresh eyes, iterating where needed (and believe me, it is always needed), fixing up and integrating the various mechanics, and truly making them as in depth and amazing as all the other content in this mod (not saying it is already, just that there is so much more potential).

I understand this is a radical, and quite likely, unpopular decision. I understand that people have put their hearts and souls into these new nations and have made places I didn't care about before truly amazing and breathtaking to behold. But the simple fact is we are caught in a double bind with no clear way out if we continue to stay the current course.

If we actually want to accomplish what we set out to do in the fastest, most consistent, and comprehensive way possible, something as radical as this plan is what is needed. Yes, it will break hearts for a time, but it will rejuvenate development in the long run, and I firmly believe something like this is the best way forward.

Alright

That's about it

Any questions?

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:19 AM

yes

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:20 AM

We dont even need to fully stop patch development, as some nations do not rely on TT as much

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:20 AM

TLDR: The TT issue is only a symptom of a wider problem imo, a potential fix given above

@Hippie Spiro Agnew Yeah, just re-allocate resources from the smaller patch nations to the other ones would be an improvement

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 07:20 AM

Yeah I mostly agree. The big issue os what to do with the greys and artists while doing TT but honestly I think we need to do this

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:20 AM

I suggested that already yeah

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:20 AM

Or to AM or No Expansion or whatever (edited)

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:20 AM

why are we creating a complex yet not overbearing economy simulation? That is an entire game unto itself. Victoria 2 is a game essentialy only about that. (edited)

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:20 AM

Just something to stop 1/2 coder teams (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 07:20 AM

If patch development can be maintained that solves the grey and artists situation

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:21 AM

AM is mostly done but No Expansion needs a lot of work still

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 07:21 AM

Also while not directly related we need to resume the code guide initiatives

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:21 AM

Only me and Pacifica worked on it occasionally (edited)

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:21 AM

And we've got a lot of contribs who could use a build up in expierence through that @Hippie Spiro Agnew

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 07:21 AM

To help teach people and ensure we don’t lose our knowledge base (edited)

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:21 AM

Its mostly decison work, drafting and implementing smallish trees, like 15 foci tops iirc

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:21 AM

You need to start somewhere

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:22 AM

Yeah

I wanted to open it up more but didnt want to take people away from patches

Some minor mechanic facelifts in russia could work to keep people occupied but most of that is in the future

The Commie 10-Feb-21 07:23 AM

Well, with the eventual reopening of the team, there surely would be quite some contribs that would join, maybe they could be sent to work on it ?

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:23 AM

Still gonna have folk with little work

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:23 AM

Contrib apps have been dwindling for years now

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:23 AM

I do mostly agree and I do wanna also add, that I always felt TT needed the most people, because the system potential is amazing

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:24 AM

We've pretty much had like the great majority of HOI4 modders on the team at some point

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:24 AM

That's the nature of things, a team is always bigger before the launch

The Commie 10-Feb-21 07:24 AM

I've been encouraging plebs lately to try and get into coding, and also we have a notable number of greys that are interested in it

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:24 AM

And, to not discredit anybody on the team

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:25 AM

@The Commie Unless you can find like 15/20 people to flesh out the patch teams and add 1/2 to each one

That's not really going to help much

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:25 AM

Coding this is always more daunting than writing. Code has this barrier of fear that people imagine some incomprehensible beast

Walker Of Chaos Where on the Crusader Kings-Victoria 2 axis do we want to fall?

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:25 AM

i think we should be close to ck3

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:25 AM

Regardless of how we got with the economy

The main issue still stands

We're developing too many places with not enough people

Like I said before

Yeah, TT is a big problem rn

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:25 AM

Wait

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:26 AM

But it's a symptom of the real one that we need to deal with

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:26 AM

Are we having the Valve issue

Fetti (Lil Break) Are we having the Valve issue

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:26 AM

the difference is that Valve pays people

we can only convince people to give up their free time

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:26 AM

Well yeah

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:26 AM

that is why I have this role

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:26 AM

That's the nature of modding, however

People here are working on passion

Fetti (Lil Break) That's the nature of modding, however

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:27 AM

yeah but with Valve is a problem because they are not a modding team, they're a for profit company

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:27 AM

Nah, I know, the valve problem was more of what happened

That Valve everyone could work on whatever they wanted, and that made things really slow

And a lot of cancelled projects

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 07:28 AM

If we're rethinking our approach to TT theory we should come to a decision soon because a lot of the team is focusing on integrating stuff rn when they could be doing other stuff for patches

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:28 AM

I think you see them talking about it, how many projects were cancelled before HL Alyx

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:28 AM

That's why we're having this discussion yes

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:29 AM

Honestly. At the risk of sounding repetative, I do like the idea of diverging resources to get a satisfying TT out, while padding filler content to keep plebs going

DocOverbuild3 That's why we're having this discussion yes

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:29 AM

My fundamental question is: Why are we doing Victoria 3 inside our game? I don't think it's part of the core of TNO at all

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 07:29 AM

could we pause the economic integration work, have people focus on the Cold War GUI and let the smart people (ie you Doc, Feda, devs, etc) decide on economic stuff

while everyone else does patch work

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:29 AM

@Fedacking Personally, I'm fine with just expanding the "Economy good Dyno mod good" system we have and just integrating it more

But that's for a larger discussion

DocOverbuild3 @Fedacking Personally, I'm fine with just expanding the "Economy good Dyno mod good" system we have and just integrating it more

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:29 AM

I'm in favour of this

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:29 AM

@Fillmore, Lord Goring That's already what was happening before

And it's not yeilding good results

That's still the 2 coders per team issue

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:30 AM

I

Do have a funny idea

If you guys wanna know, regarding the Grey problem

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:31 AM

I don't think focusing on making an economy simulator would be a good use of a narrative experience like this one IMO. The gdp and economy need to exist to point out that the stuff in the events and focuses has some larger narrative role in the world, but it should not be a system unto itself

Fetti (Lil Break) Do have a funny idea

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 07:31 AM

go for it

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 07:32 AM

just let the greys not write lmao

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:32 AM

In general I feel putting most of the experienced developers and codes to push a stronger TT is a great idea, as it's a big bottleneck and the bitter pill needs to be taken someday

But we could put non-active greys right now on something like After Midnight

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:32 AM

@calph (got damn) Whenever you get up from your mousetrap see above, wrote my manifesto https://discord.com/channels/805758885595971605/805768932303831060/809063817883156520 (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:32 AM

It's something that has nothing to do with TT and keeps busy

Add some few epilogue stuff, and I feel it's a good patch to tide people over until TT

Fetti (Lil Break) But we could put non-active greys right now on something like After Midnight

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 07:33 AM

honestly that could work

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:33 AM

Gives them things to do, we flesh that out a bit more, and get it out. Shouldn't be something intensive for coders, too.

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:33 AM

Thing is, AM is mostly done, although Epilogue events for all the warlords are still being planned

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

we could also have greys do editing but that's pretty boring

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

That's what I'm saying

It's mostly to get the non-active greys working

Anfd have a patch to tide over until TT

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

.inrole greytide worldwide

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

No Expansion would need loc for new trees, decisions and maybe a few events

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

god damnit

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

.inrole GREYTIDE WORLDWIDE

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

.inrole GREYTIDE WORLDWIDE

Nadeko BOT 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

List of users in GREYTIDE WORLDWIDE role - 84

Jesus 2.0#3145 James#4781 Nexerus#3695 Raptor#1112 Tannenberg#2610 Xabiar#1022

Kamerun

#9120 Kyiv_Worker#9963 GDIFIREHAWK#9486 Bottlecap#2484 Mic!#7664 48thRonin#2938 ClausewitzianFriction#6526 Pikeman#9847 RoninMacbeth#9234 jentren#5686 MajorMurray#2543 Atom_Heart_Mother#6267 rose colored ryan#1312 FilAnd#0249

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

@Hippie Spiro Agnew You could always use the extra greys to flesh out regional/superegional with more events

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

As I really rather have a system that's engaging and fulfills the potential it has, than something half done that we just add to it forever

DocOverbuild3 @Hippie Spiro Agnew You could always use the extra greys to flesh out regional/superegional with more events

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

Yeah

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:34 AM

Unless you guys already fixed that

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:35 AM

I mean I do have a flavor suggestion sheet

But I also can't draft so many events

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:35 AM

Well anyway

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:35 AM

I can help

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:35 AM

Would need help with that, coming up with suggestion and approving them

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:35 AM

Mainly I just wanted to rant about patch development so I got that out of the way

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:35 AM

@Hippie Spiro Agnew If you'll have me I can help with that

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:35 AM

But yeah someone ping me whenever a decision gets made and we can go from there

Fetti (Lil Break) @Hippie Spiro Agnew If you'll have me I can help with that

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 07:35 AM

Sure

Guangdong is reliant on TT anyway

Glad Moskowien doesn't need it, because it's economy is so shit it's beyond any saving

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:36 AM

In my humble opinion, I feel Doc's suggestion is the best one. Things need to change, but the heart of the system is still really good

We just need to give a reason for the player to care. TNO is an amazing game, but it's still a game

Economy shouldn't be a system ya can ignore just like we do rn

Fetti (Lil Break) As I really rather have a system that's engaging and fulfills the potential it has, than something half done that we just add to it forever

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:37 AM

Making an economy truly engaging is hard. It's an entire game unto itself

Hippie Spiro Agnew Guangdong is reliant on TT anyway

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 07:37 AM

All of Guangdong is basically already on TT so

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:37 AM

Well that's not good

Fedacking Making an economy truly engaging is hard. It's an entire game unto itself

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:37 AM

Nah, I know, it's always going to be tweaked. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't kick off with something half-baked

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 07:37 AM

literally i put all the greys in the playpen with the oil crisis so that the Contribs could do TT work

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:38 AM

.inrole contributor

god fucking damnit

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:38 AM

d

estroyed

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:38 AM

Someone get the list for me

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 07:38 AM

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:39 AM

Thanks

Fetti (Lil Break) Nah, I know, it's always going to be tweaked. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't kick off with something half-baked

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:39 AM

Nah, I think that having a proper detailed and interactive economy is out of the scope of TNO as a whole. How much attention do we demand from the player? Victoria 2 has 100 years to develop the economy (edited)

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 07:39 AM

IMO setting a yearly budget as a mechanic could be very good

This budget would then influence policy effectiveness in different areas

Fedacking Nah, I think that having a proper detailed and interactive economy is out of the scope of TNO as a whole. How much attention do we demand from the player? Victoria 2 has 100 years to develop the economy (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:40 AM

A properly detailed with all that entails, yeah. But something that works for the setting, and flow of TNO is very much feasible.

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 07:40 AM

I will literally make Vicky 3 if the team gets consolidated

That's mainly the issue I care about

Since it's the one causing all the others

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:40 AM

I am down to anything

Cause I love TT potential

So what consensus do we have right now?

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 07:46 AM

Let the devs sort out which plan we actually go with

But your plan has been noted doc

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 07:47 AM

I'm just curious if my idea with After Midnight is also in the plans

Also if I can push my tweaks on Russian Decisions for TT or keep it in the fridge for now

Fedacking Nah, I think that having a proper detailed and interactive economy is out of the scope of TNO as a whole. How much attention do we demand from the player? Victoria 2 has 100 years to develop the economy (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 07:52 AM

Honestly I feel like part of the cause of this is differing conceptions of what TNO should be were built up over the years and are now clashing. Which is not unheard of to happen in big projects

Walker Of Chaos Honestly I feel like part of the cause of this is differing conceptions of what TNO should be were built up over the years and are now clashing. Which is not unheard of to happen in big projects

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 07:54 AM

Battle for the soul of TNO

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:00 AM

@DocOverbuild3 So, my first and immediate take for fixing up the Econ System's issues is re-implementing the Industrial Production system that got shot down forever ago. E.g. - Remove State-Base Factories, Re-Focusing around State-GDP-Contribution - To fulfill the role of production, have the Production system utilize two concepts: - Productive Capacity - Representative of the overall possible production - Drawn from some calculation of Econ Vars - Exact details aren't as important as that it happens - Productive Tokens - Tokens are, in game terms, the individual factories given to the player for this or that. Tokens fundamentally divide Productive Capacity equally, and the player can draw more or less to serve their particular need Benefits: - Way easier to balance, and gives a good solution for areas impossible to balance like Russian Warlords - Strictly ties the Econ System to very obvious in-game effects - The current Production & Construction systems are kinda just hanging out and are some of the best examples of how TNO is a mod for a different game kinda just on HOI4. The systems just don't work with TNO as-is, and this change is a step forward to fixing that. - Beyond strictly Productive Capacity & Productive Tokens, this system is pretty much already put together, State-based GDP is already kept & calculated (though it's calculation will need to change) and the Econ System would need minor revision to handle this. It's a cheap change. Problems: - W/o some thought, it'd essentially gut construction - Buuut tbqh I personally don't care, Construction simply isn't used enough to make this concern a big one. - Further, I think there are a few smart solutions for this - It may drastically change balance, and require us to re-balance a lot of stuff going forward.

calph (got damn) @DocOverbuild3 So, my first and immediate take for fixing up the Econ System's issues is re-implementing the Industrial Production system that got shot down forever ago. E.g. - Remove State-Base Factories, Re-Focusing around State-GDP-Contribution - To fulfill the role of production, have the Production system utilize two concepts: - Productive Capacity - Representative of the overall possible production - Drawn from some calculation of Econ Vars - Exact details aren't as important as that it happens - Productive Tokens - Tokens are, in game terms, the individual factories given to the player for this or that. Tokens fundamentally divide Productive Capacity equally, and the player can draw more or less to serve their particular need Benefits: - Way easier to balance, and gives a good solution for areas impossible to balance like Russian Warlords - Strictly ties the Econ System to very obvious in-game effects - The current Production & Construction systems are kinda just hanging out and are some of the best examples of how TNO is a mod for a different game kinda just on HOI4. The systems just don't work with TNO as-is, and this change is a step forward to fixing that. - Beyond strictly Productive Capacity & Productive Tokens, this system is pretty much already put together, State-based GDP is already kept & calculated (though it's calculation will need to change) and the Econ System would need minor revision to handle this. It's a cheap change. Problems: - W/o some thought, it'd essentially gut construction - Buuut tbqh I personally don't care, Construction simply isn't used enough to make this concern a big one. - Further, I think there are a few smart solutions for this - It may drastically change balance, and require us to re-balance a lot of stuff going forward.

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:02 AM

Certainly sounds intriguing. Also seems like the thing that could easily be given variations depending upon if the state is capitalist/communist/fascist/whatever

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:02 AM

Definitely, the big underlying benefit for this system is it's entirely in our control, whereas vanilla Production & Construction is very much not

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:03 AM

I’ve been more and more thinking of way to government contracts lately

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:04 AM

smh my special xinjiang factoryless state

Some Guy 10-Feb-21 08:04 AM

So basically a crapload of offmap factories?

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:04 AM

I mean I also want most minors to not produce anything themself

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:04 AM

Isnt request license production a DLC mechanic only

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:04 AM

I've mentioned it in dev hole but ideally government budget should be a lot more relevant, potentially even a gatekeeper when it comes to focus/mechanic design for paths

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

Arms market

(I’ll shut up about it now I promise) (edited)

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

Essentially yeah, the more there are the more they malus production variables as related to the single "Productive Capacity"

E.g. you can have like 100 factories

but if you only have 2 PC

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

I would be completely down for it

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

doesn't much matter

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

Though it will require TT to be at least delayed a month

Walker Of Chaos I mean I also want most minors to not produce anything themself

Some Guy 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

But plenty of minors developed their own weapons irl

OPAsian Though it will require TT to be at least delayed a month

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

meh

OPAsian Though it will require TT to be at least delayed a month

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

We havent made a release date announcement so

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

in the grand scheme of things what's a month (edited)

OPAsian Isnt request license production a DLC mechanic only

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:05 AM

I believe we had concepts for doing a arms market without licenses

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:06 AM

Idk if it'd actually take all that long

The main cost for this system imo

is figuring out a reasonable way to do the math for the PC calculation

As it'll require doing some fuckery w/ HOI4 vanilla variables

And being smart about scaling

Well really the main cost is testing this system but in terms of it's actual code

I don't think it's that complex

Some Guy But plenty of minors developed their own weapons irl

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:07 AM

Not produce anything is a bit of an exaggeration. But I’d want arms sales to be very significant for minors. And losing access to them to be crippling

3

moyme We havent made a release date announcement so

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:08 AM

Yeah we make our own schedule. And so long as we don’t leave the plebs to dry for like 6 months with no news we should be fine

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:08 AM

tbh all we have done was estimations for the plebs

no concrete release date

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 08:08 AM

I mean, theres still filler stuff like AM we might release

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:08 AM

and when has TNO ever managed to keep its estimations

Walker Of Chaos Yeah we make our own schedule. And so long as we don’t leave the plebs to dry for like 6 months with no news we should be fine

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:08 AM

Exactly

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:09 AM

“Plebs remember when we told you the release date was May 1st? Yeah it’s like that”

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:09 AM

The benefits of no longer doing release dates months early

6

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 08:09 AM

Fuck yuo pw tomorrow

Hippie Spiro Agnew Fuck yuo pw tomorrow

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:09 AM

alright bitchass finish italy by this evening

moyme The benefits of no longer doing release dates months early

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:09 AM

No crunching a country in the span of a month

3

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 08:09 AM

Fashbol italy coming right up

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:10 AM

mfw we're celebrating basic humane team development rules coming into effect

8

moyme mfw we're celebrating basic humane team development rules coming into effect

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 08:10 AM

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 08:10 AM

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:11 AM

Anyway on your proposal itself @DocOverbuild3, I generally agree but IMO the devil is very much in the details. We can't really just drop patch dev for this and while I know that's not what you're suggesting we've run into this kinda issue multiple times before and we need a good approach to benefit TT while not cucking the other patch teams (and in fact, whole other sections of the team in Grey & Artist's ends) long-term. If we are going to go forward with general and stronger touchups and integration for TT we'll need concrete plan(s) of where and how best to apply that.

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:11 AM

I mentioned this in doki like 2 days ago but this is really a situation where our size works against us

If we were a team of 50 this'd be easy

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Yeah I definitely agree

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:12 AM

but now we're a team of 200+ and need to keep em engaged

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Tbqh 4 patches in a cycle was overly ambitious

and the Devs underestimated TT

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:12 AM

honestly I think we may wanna do a VC round table on TT soonish

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:13 AM

Well we'll keep battering our head against a wall and eventually figure out where the door is

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:13 AM

Saturday maybe?

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:13 AM

we could replace the normal TL RT with a combined TL and TT RT

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:13 AM

Might work

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:13 AM

saturday should be fine with me

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:13 AM

Well more than might work, sure that's what we'll do

.inrole Toolbox Theory

.inrole Toolbox Theory Development

Nadeko BOT 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

List of users in Toolbox Theory Development role - 2

Fedacking#4883 Lamounier#2332

8

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

Lmao

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

based

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

Nadeko Click to see original message

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

Pinned a message.

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

.inrole Britain Development

Nadeko BOT 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

List of users in Britain Development role - 16

Tannenberg#2610 Bottlecap#2484 OPAsian#8622 Admiral Ackbar#8434 kingquayle#7395 bambaaduoma#9887 Citoyen Helix666#2229 Baron Steakpuncher#6733 scoodoop#5808 GC_Prisoner#0691 Lonard55#4182 Volkorel#2657 Estgel#1146 Krakenking#2697 Masterbobli#0483 A Cliff Racer#9115

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

is inrole enabled for all team members btw?

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

Nope

I could enable it though

Kept it disabled for security concerns

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

go ahead imo

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:14 AM

eh give it a bit of time

Beyond devs nobody else really needs it

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 08:15 AM

Owned

calph (got damn) Lmao

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 08:15 AM

I dont even know when I was given that role

1

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:15 AM

Already enabled it, if anything comes up from it we can catch it then

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:15 AM

calph more like dumbph...

Fedacking I dont even know when I was given that role

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:15 AM

congratulations you have been employed

please do not resist

moyme 10-Feb-21 08:15 AM

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 08:16 AM

You wouldnt get a job so the job got you

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:16 AM

ok i should probably give the TT role to Walker and Doc

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:16 AM

Cage fight between Fedacking and Lamounier to decide who is the TT king

Hippie Spiro Agnew You wouldnt get a job so the job got you

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 08:16 AM

Enginseer problema

Nadeko BOT 10-Feb-21 08:16 AM

List of users in Magos role - 1

Fedacking#4883

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 08:17 AM

@Magos hi

1

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:19 AM

not directly related to this but still TT, did we ever decide what to do with the diplo criseses?

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 08:20 AM

make fedacking TT value editing lead

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:24 AM

@calph (got damn) Yep I agree 100%, this was mainly just me identifying the issue and what a possible solution might look like

More than happy to help develop it later

(Yknow you could just sneak me into the TL round table I won’t mind)

Walker Of Chaos not directly related to this but still TT, did we ever decide what to do with the diplo criseses?

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:25 AM

Oh yeah we shouldn't forget that part

Alongside the cold war GUI

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 08:25 AM

what does the cold war GUI do again

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:25 AM

A way to track the players in the cold war, give some sort of scoring to them, and enable a way to centralise crisis management

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 08:26 AM

actually on the topic of GUI can the nuclear GUI get a big tooltip saying how firing the nukes will end your game or just something along the lines of "dont do this accidentally you idiot"

jesusツ - UwU actually on the topic of GUI can the nuclear GUI get a big tooltip saying how firing the nukes will end your game or just something along the lines of "dont do this accidentally you idiot"

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:26 AM

“Click Here to Outlaw Germany”

Bamba 10-Feb-21 08:27 AM

btw

Are we sure that we are not overreacting?

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:27 AM

Over which part?

Bamba 10-Feb-21 08:28 AM

Over the Entire "burn it down" part

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:28 AM

I stopped the most complete patch nations dev after looking around for 30 minutes

I guarantee I could do the same to every other one

There needs to be some consolidation so that doesn’t happen again

Bamba Are we sure that we are not overreacting?

Some Guy 10-Feb-21 08:29 AM

The test reports for TT show it needs an overhaul at least. We can ignore the system and nothing bad happens (edited)

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:29 AM

We are operating as if we have the same structure and team as release

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:29 AM

The fundamental issue with the economy is that its pointless. And that needs some major change if we want people to actually care about it

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:29 AM

And that’s just not true anymore

Some Guy The test reports for TT show it needs an overhaul at least. We can ignore the system and nothing bad happens (edited)

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 08:29 AM

all of mine are just it works

but it doesent matter

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:29 AM

^

It's a fancified version of our previous econ

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:29 AM

Which is exactly what the other economy was

Yep

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:30 AM

Honestly I like Calph's plan, to completely decouple construction

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:30 AM

And unfortunately if we release TT and the players like, “wait it’s literally only line graphs?”

That’s not going to go over well

Especially since it’s overhyped to the moon

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:30 AM

Because base hoi4 construction is weird enough already

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 08:30 AM

for some reason people see TT as a patch that is like the almight patch that will show how future patches will end up

some people

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:31 AM

I mean, it is our next patch which introduces wide-reaching mechanics overhauls

I think that expectation isn't entirely unfounded

More important for us to live up to them then

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:31 AM

I could not agree more

We said this was the patch that made the Cold War feel like a Cold War

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

From a pleb perspective I think all they’ve seen is the new econ screen right?

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

Yes

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

And right now it’s a failure in that regard

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

And subideologies ig

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

And that without context implies dramatic changes

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

^^^

Original message was deleted.

calph (got damn) 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

Pinned a message.

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

But yeah we kinda ran into the same issues as before

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

Who knew that history repeats itself?

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:32 AM

The more TNOdev changes the more it stays the same but

Honestly

It's for the best if we lay this down well now

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:33 AM

@North China Unionist - 變性權利 legit that’s all I’ve been thinking about since I rejoined lol

It feels like early 2019 to me

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:33 AM

I know there was talk about a TT stream to address hype. May wanna revisit that after we figure out what we’re gonna do

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 08:33 AM

i to this day dont know how to reach a surplus as any russia

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:33 AM

Let's focus on the fundamentals for now Decide on a direction, then see it through

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:34 AM

Yeah

We need a solid vision regarding what we’re gonna do

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:34 AM

Can we not do that like, right right now though?

Think this would better be served for an organized meeting

Once the devs figure out a structure and the like

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:34 AM

Oh yeah, didn’t mean to imply it should be rn

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 08:34 AM

And honestly

There should be a TL for TT

Hell, sub tls too for each system honestly

There needs to be some dedicated personal with power over decisions so that control and work can be delegated

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 08:36 AM

Yeah I’d imagine so. Pacifica and Valrin early on were key leading voices for what things should be like. We need something like that again

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 08:40 AM

^

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 08:45 AM

Pacifica was TT TL

DocOverbuild3 Especially since it’s overhyped to the moon

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 08:48 AM

this is the main problem imo

Walker Of Chaos The fundamental issue with the economy is that its pointless. And that needs some major change if we want people to actually care about it

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 08:48 AM

The problem is that to make it have a point we would transform the game to be about the economy

Some Guy The test reports for TT show it needs an overhaul at least. We can ignore the system and nothing bad happens (edited)

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 08:48 AM

most of the effects are marginal

in a way in TNO you can ignore a lot of the components of HOI4 (edited)

I mean it's not like you need anything for iberia except rifles from base hoi4, right @Internetismean ?

And Iberia is a fun game nevertheless

Targai 10-Feb-21 08:56 AM

Something i think we are sleeping on that is still very important for TT is the cold war mechanics in general

Targai Something i think we are sleeping on that is still very important for TT is the cold war mechanics in general

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 08:56 AM

I agree with this

Targai 10-Feb-21 08:56 AM

TT is being billed as what completes the puzzle of making tno feel like a cold war and imo it should be more of a focus

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 09:25 AM

So, are we going with Calph's proposal then?

And yeah, it's like I said before, TT right now is essential. A lot of patches waiting on it, and it's supposed to be part of the "soul"

Also IMO AM is fine as a filler patch to tide over TT delay

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 09:27 AM

would be a nice recognition of Pacifica's efforts back-to-back

AM and TT

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 09:27 AM

I like putting AM before because it also gives our non active greytides some work since a lot of dev spots like Guangdong are kinda on ice

Since a lot of AM is just epilogue events, and maaaaybe some epilogue trees. It's mostly done.

And Tabby is popular as ever

~~Can't wait for second reunification submod you know it's gonna happen~~

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 10-Feb-21 09:31 AM

was there a TT release date?

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 09:31 AM

Not really

But CRF has been 3 months now

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 09:32 AM

we gave estimates in plebchats

but emphasize on estimate

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 09:32 AM

It's being delayed at this point, kinda inevitable, but it's good to give something as a filler

Gives a breathing room

And AM is mostly done, just needs polish and grey love from what I saw

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 10-Feb-21 09:37 AM

git nuke did in fact impede development

I don't think a delay on TT would be a bad thing

but it's not up to me

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 09:40 AM

Nah, I think people can wait

But pushing a filler patch isn't particularly troublesome and helps with good will

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 09:42 AM

goodwill, as it says in the name, is very good

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 09:43 AM

Worst comes to worst we could doubtlessly drag up some other filler after AM and no expansion trees (edited)

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 10-Feb-21 09:44 AM

we were aiming to release TT in March?

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 09:50 AM

No

Oh wait you said were aiming

Yes I believe that was the estimate

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 09:51 AM

TT releases have been estimated for pretty much every possible date

Fillmore, Lord Goring 10-Feb-21 10:02 AM

TT released yesterday

7

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 10-Feb-21 10:08 AM

I think the focus of this patch should be to give an immersive econ along with those extras like cold war gui and subideologies

maybe make socdev more dependent on econ

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 10:12 AM

Maybe the buffs are stronger the better your overrall economy is?

DocOverbuild3 10-Feb-21 10:26 AM

That’s how Burgundy’s system works

the 10-Feb-21 10:32 AM

@OPAsian could you give the TT role to me since I had it and for some reason it was removed

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 10:33 AM

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) I think the focus of this patch should be to give an immersive econ along with those extras like cold war gui and subideologies

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 10:36 AM

what do envision by immersive econ?

Fedacking what do envision by immersive econ?

the 10-Feb-21 10:37 AM

making the player care about it

Fedacking what do envision by immersive econ?

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 10-Feb-21 10:38 AM

right now whether or not you do econ doesnt matter, because if you ignore it you wont be punished much

you might as well crank up all the slider to max and never open the gui again

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) right now whether or not you do econ doesnt matter, because if you ignore it you wont be punished much

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 10:39 AM

mhm there are some punishments for too big debt

I think we should make those more vlear and visible

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 10-Feb-21 10:40 AM

yeah but you will probably not reach those during gameplay

unless gdp explodes

I was thinking of trying to tie socdev more to econ, where funding social and admin policies would mean somewhat significant impact on how those policies work

iirc if you put funding to max, you'll get +10% effectiveness on those policies

I don't think this is significant

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 10:43 AM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/111HoPbHyUqijNnoWMCiEd500bdRZMJWIrc1tirj5kAo/edit?usp=sharing @Fetti (Lil Break)

Economy with Hyperborean characteristics

AB-Hyperborea Nekronion Answers to Request: Specific to Request: As AB you have 2 things: Manpower and debt. Even with trying to cut my expenses as much as possible, my debt was growing constantly and there wasn't much I can do,despite my low cost social laws Balance: New Economy: Cold War GUI ...

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 10:44 AM

LETS GOOOOOOOOOOO-

Fedacking I mean it's not like you need anything for iberia except rifles from base hoi4, right @Internetismean ?

Internetismean 10-Feb-21 10:59 AM

Mostly rifles yeah, although there's always the possibility of the Wars happening (edited)

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 11:07 AM

@OPAsian I fear that under this new system due to russia being a gdp shithole there is no way they won't have masive debt

Fedacking @OPAsian I fear that under this new system due to russia being a gdp shithole there is no way they won't have masive debt

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 11:09 AM

hmmm Fair we are currently discussing in dev-hole about TT plans

OPAsian hmmm Fair we are currently discussing in dev-hole about TT plans

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 11:09 AM

still seeing the sceeenshot something is going wrong (edited)

sciences expenditures are more than 10 times what it should be

same for admin

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 11:10 AM

huh

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 11:10 AM

Also I'm thinking of making the component of soldiers salary relative to gdp/capita

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 11:10 AM

army expenditures is also massive

Fedacking Also I'm thinking of making the component of soldiers salary relative to gdp/capita

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 11:10 AM

i like that

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 11:11 AM

so that soldiers get payed dirt in omsk ultra militarist state

but have high salaries in Germany and USA

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 11:11 AM

make security GDP per capita as well

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 11:11 AM

@Nekronion pls send save file

OPAsian make security GDP per capita as well

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 11:11 AM

security already is

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 11:11 AM

@Fetti (Lil Break) you didnt set the ABs poverty rate

Fedacking security already is

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 11:12 AM

huh it just uses 10% of the ABs gdp which does make sense

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 11:12 AM

it's only Aryan society poverty

OPAsian huh it just uses 10% of the ABs gdp which does make sense

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 11:12 AM

ooh no

it's only per capita

yeah I'll fix that

OPAsian @Fetti (Lil Break) you didnt set the ABs poverty rate

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 11:17 AM

aryans start off without poverty

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 10-Feb-21 11:21 AM

aryan wellbeing

on the outside they look like they are in poverty, on the inside they are peak aryans

jesusツ - UwU 10-Feb-21 11:24 AM

by the end of my AB game

i had 50% poverty

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 10-Feb-21 11:28 AM

~~by the end of my Thatcher game I had 61%~~

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 11:31 AM

I'm not home rn but how much poverty should the AB even have

80?

who? (break) 10-Feb-21 11:31 AM

above 80

Fetti (Lil Break) 10-Feb-21 11:31 AM

Alright

Fedacking @Nekronion pls send save file

Nekronion 10-Feb-21 11:53 AM

Unfortunately the game crashed shortly before reunifiying, but I dont know if that was random or TT related

autosave.zip

8.18 MB

who? (break) above 80

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 12:04 PM

rip income tax

North China Unionist - 變性權利 10-Feb-21 12:20 PM

Aryan governments don't need Judeo-Bolshevik concepts such as "tax"

Fedacking @OPAsian I fear that under this new system due to russia being a gdp shithole there is no way they won't have masive debt

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:33 PM

honestly this should just be considered a feature

russia is absolutely fucked by all margins

pulling themselves out of the cesspool of misery they're in will take massive investments and effort

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:34 PM

OFN loans...

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:34 PM

there'd still be massive poverty, corruption, and other issues that will take much effort and money to root out

Hippie Spiro Agnew OFN loans...

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:35 PM

subsidizing an entire country...............

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:35 PM

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:35 PM

stonks

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:35 PM

This actually reminds me

We should lock into the USA-Magadan flavor events

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:35 PM

Yeah

The US relations mechanic works but it could also use a facelift

It's so old

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:36 PM

CIA flavor events.......

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:36 PM

It was there when I joined Russia team

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:36 PM

Yep + I want flavor events updating the US player when important stuff happens (maybe in the form of CIA reports)

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:36 PM

I've felt that I didn't go far enough in my CIA work for CRF (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:37 PM

I kinda want to make the US player feel extra attached to Magadan to mirror how AI US is supposed to favor it

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 02:37 PM

see AB

Oveja honestly this should just be considered a feature

Fedacking 10-Feb-21 02:37 PM

yeah but those governments have ways to cut expenditure, especially should be available to shitstains that don't have social programs

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:37 PM

Investments and return

But having flavor events with a narrative would also work a lot to attach the US player to Magadan

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 02:38 PM

I would wish the US player could help Magadan in meaningful ways

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:38 PM

There's a couple on Magadan's side but yeah, events for the US would be neat

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 02:38 PM

Seeing Magadan lose to Amur is very

Fedacking yeah but those governments have ways to cut expenditure, especially should be available to shitstains that don't have social programs

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:39 PM

Idea that comes to mind is decisions to fix debnts

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:39 PM

Part of the US relations facelift I suppose

OPAsian Seeing Magadan lose to Amur is very

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:39 PM

I agree

Also I'm sad I can't use that emoji here

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:39 PM

Random probably stupid idea, maxed out relations = volunteers?

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:40 PM

Oh, remember how the CIA can send military advisers to prop up Magadan?

Maybe that could be expanded upon

And turn it into an official military tie

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:40 PM

Yeah, Magadan gets a few events from the PoV of a CIA attache

He mostly disappears at regional if you're not WerBell doe

I'm also thinking of making WerBell more AI likely

To date, I think only one person saw AI WerBell. He was intended to be player only basically but there's like 1:10000 chance the AI gets him after picking a certain focus

Targai 10-Feb-21 02:41 PM

Let USA send volunteers to Magadan

Just 1 or 2

Hippie Spiro Agnew I'm also thinking of making WerBell more AI likely

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:42 PM

Maybe CIA ties to WerBell?

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:42 PM

Maybe yeah

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:42 PM

But ideally Magadan shouldn’t just feel like a scrappy lil Warlord the US player is fond of. It should feel like an extension of your interests and something you actively benefit from when it advances

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:42 PM

@Oveja He's friends with one of the founders of the CIA

John Singlaub

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:42 PM

Yeah, but there's no ops afaik to prop him up

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:42 PM

Nah, because the way to get him is pretty basic tbh

Pick a focus, then an event option

Could expand on it tbh

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 02:43 PM

The US when matkovsky wins:

The US when they realize that he is still gonna simp for them

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:43 PM

Since it was made with the mindset of player only

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 02:43 PM

player only CIA mission to Werbell

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:43 PM

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:43 PM

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:44 PM

One thing I want to do but I need it from you on @Hippie Spiro Agnew is that if 2 US friendly regionals are facing each other the US can try to smooth tensions and encourage diplo unification

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:44 PM

Yeah, that'd be neat

Diplo unification also needs work

For Magadan, the only thing I'd want is facelifts/reskins of current mechanics + something for superregional

Walker Of Chaos But ideally Magadan shouldn’t just feel like a scrappy lil Warlord the US player is fond of. It should feel like an extension of your interests and something you actively benefit from when it advances

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Magadan joining the US economic sphere in regional and returning investments as times goes on/allowing you to foster American companies to move into Magadan

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:45 PM

One thing I really want is diplo unification giving spirits based on who joined up

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Also the biggest way to make the US player feel it's a part of their interests is allowing them to send volunteers

Targai 10-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Honestly which Magadan path is the best for the USA

@Hippie Spiro Agnew

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Which could be done as an expansion upon what's already in for the CIA

Targai Honestly which Magadan path is the best for the USA

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Petlin

Targai 10-Feb-21 02:46 PM

CIA should have a lot of player only opportunities to fuck with russia imo

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:46 PM

WerBell can be a loose cannon and is wild

Targai 10-Feb-21 02:46 PM

Like boosting petlin

Sending volunteers

Etc

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:46 PM

But Petlin is genuine in his beliefs

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:46 PM

Some of that is in

Outright volunteers have not ben done but if Thunder is okay with it I’d be cool with it

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:46 PM

@Targai That's where my facelift idea for the party mechanic comes in

Walker Of Chaos One thing I want to do but I need it from you on @Hippie Spiro Agnew is that if 2 US friendly regionals are facing each other the US can try to smooth tensions and encourage diplo unification

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:46 PM

I tried to do this but back then I was a noob and didn't know how to do it, but I made a very early version for it that's working for the reunification wars, being the USA can pick between 2 unifiers who are fighting each other but both are friendly to US interests

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:47 PM

I'd be cool with volunteers, like 1 or 2 maybe if you manage to get relations high enough

Targai 10-Feb-21 02:47 PM

Sending Helicopters into Russia

Could make for really fun flavor too

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:47 PM

rn the party mechanic is something i slapped together like a week before release

Targai 10-Feb-21 02:47 PM

Get people protesting and it can be a big scandal for your popularity if its discovered

Pull our boys out of russia

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:47 PM

the petlin v matkovsky thing

Oveja I tried to do this but back then I was a noob and didn't know how to do it, but I made a very early version for it that's working for the reunification wars, being the USA can pick between 2 unifiers who are fighting each other but both are friendly to US interests

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:48 PM

Yeah an expanded version of that that also covers diplo unifications would be great

Hippie Spiro Agnew I'd be cool with volunteers, like 1 or 2 maybe if you manage to get relations high enough

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:49 PM

CIA attaches -> Sending weapons -> Army drilling with Magadan troops -> Sending manpower and giving boons to Magadan to represent American personnel -> Sending volunteers

8

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 02:49 PM

OFN trainer troops and """"Peacekeepers"""" in Magadan

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:49 PM

Oveja CIA attaches -> Sending weapons -> Army drilling with Magadan troops -> Sending manpower and giving boons to Magadan to represent American personnel -> Sending volunteers

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:49 PM

It's the original idea I had in mind when I was tasked with CIA ops for CRF but back then I didn't know how to actually go through with it

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:49 PM

Honestly I’d kinda wanna look into greater US involvement with Iruktsk, Buryatia and Magadan, but the later is the priority

Critical Existence Failure 10-Feb-21 02:50 PM

@Hippie Spiro Agnew would dem russias join the USA econmic sphere

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:50 PM

It’s just such a good idea for flavor

Critical Existence Failure 10-Feb-21 02:50 PM

or is that werbell only

Hippie Spiro Agnew 10-Feb-21 02:51 PM

Well yeah, DemRussias are OFN leaning more often than not

Critical Existence Failure 10-Feb-21 02:51 PM

oh nice

OPAsian 10-Feb-21 02:51 PM

Well logically speaking, some DemRussias would want a strong central bank and currency to reduce their debt interest

Walker Of Chaos 10-Feb-21 02:51 PM

The US likes people it can talk to and who are pliable to its interests. And in Russia most of those people are Dems

Oveja 10-Feb-21 02:54 PM

Magadan joining US economic sphere at regional stage maybe?

Critical Existence Failure 10-Feb-21 04:22 PM

so like what if we had an info box here explaining how to increase gdp

or just a general explanation of what the fuck the player is looking at like what burgundy has

jesusツ - UwU 11-Feb-21 03:24 AM

soo any decision made on TT

Fedacking 11-Feb-21 08:56 AM

GDP per Capita of all countries

@moyme germany strong

who? (break) 11-Feb-21 08:57 AM

that feels weird

Fedacking 11-Feb-21 08:57 AM

also RK sudwestafrica is more rich than italy

@Less than Anarch

1

who? (break) 11-Feb-21 08:57 AM

considering germany's economy died

burgundy is more rich than switzerland @Fedacking

Fedacking 11-Feb-21 08:58 AM

also based argentina in the top 10

who? (break) burgundy is more rich than switzerland @Fedacking

Fedacking 11-Feb-21 08:58 AM

bruh

moyme 11-Feb-21 08:58 AM

@Fedacking is tha tbased off of current data or what

moyme @Fedacking is tha tbased off of current data or what

Fedacking 11-Feb-21 08:58 AM

current TT data

I'm making this to implement Doc's basic economy thing

moyme 11-Feb-21 08:59 AM

alr

Fedacking 11-Feb-21 08:59 AM

I can also run it in Master, if you want to see @moyme

but I think GDPs havent' changed

moyme 11-Feb-21 08:59 AM

@Fedacking Don't implement anything yet

1

We devs are planning to have a big discussion on TT soon where we'll try to figure out what to do

@Toolbox Theory Development

Walker Of Chaos 11-Feb-21 09:01 AM

Probably wise to halt codework yeah, don’t wanna waste effort

moyme @Toolbox Theory Development

The Xenophobic Fascist 11-Feb-21 09:02 AM

could've literally just pinged Fedacking and it would've had the same effect

moyme 11-Feb-21 09:02 AM

.inrole Toolbox Theory Development

Nadeko BOT 11-Feb-21 09:02 AM

List of users in Toolbox Theory Development role - 7

DocOverbuild3#8229 Wendell#5765 Sino#0420 Walker Of Chaos#1533 Flaxbeard#6752 Fedacking#4883 Lamounier#2332

moyme 11-Feb-21 09:02 AM

@The Xenophobic Fascist owned!!

The Xenophobic Fascist 11-Feb-21 09:02 AM

Walker Of Chaos 11-Feb-21 09:02 AM

Team has been expanded

The Xenophobic Fascist 11-Feb-21 09:03 AM

the pin lied...

who? (break) 11-Feb-21 09:03 AM

could've pinged team member and it would've did the same effect @moyme

moyme 11-Feb-21 09:04 AM

@ everyone

6

DocOverbuild3 11-Feb-21 10:14 AM

@moyme When’s that discussion going to be?

Or is it between you all?

who? (break) 11-Feb-21 10:17 AM

DocOverbuild3 @moyme When’s that discussion going to be?

moyme 11-Feb-21 10:18 AM

Saturday, it's gonna be a tl-dev roundtable

Fedacking 11-Feb-21 10:21 AM

@Walker Of Chaos can you carry my concern that an overly elaborate economic system detracts from the main points of TNO in my humble opinion?

Fedacking @Walker Of Chaos can you carry my concern that an overly elaborate economic system detracts from the main points of TNO in my humble opinion?

Walker Of Chaos 11-Feb-21 10:22 AM

I can try to present the viewpoint

2

I also have my own stances ofc but your opinion is something that can benefit discussion

DocOverbuild3 @moyme When’s that discussion going to be?

calph (got damn) 11-Feb-21 10:24 AM

one mo

Walker Of Chaos I also have my own stances ofc but your opinion is something that can benefit discussion

Fedacking 11-Feb-21 10:24 AM

I'll write something to elaborate on the points (edited)

calph (got damn) 11-Feb-21 10:27 AM

@Toolbox Theory Development As part of the usual Dev-TL RT we'll be inviting you onto the RT after the Dev-TL portion has closed. The time will be approximately 2:30 - 2:45pm EST (Depends how long the usual Dev-TL meeting takes) and in it we'll come to a decision on the necessary scope to fix up TT, any major additions or changes we need to go through with for it, etc.

8

1

who? (break) 11-Feb-21 10:27 AM

DocOverbuild3 11-Feb-21 11:00 AM

Sounds good

Lamounier 11-Feb-21 04:02 PM

Reposting this here

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eCj6tgdwhDCIBKDglIsppj-fespn02EoOx-tTtqRpIE/edit

Toolbox Theory: Reworked Nuclear Mechanics doc

Toolbox Theory: Reworked Nuclear Mechanics By Lamounier Introduction This document aims to provide a detailed explanation of the new nuke mechanics being introduced in the 1.2 Toolbox Theory update. These act as a replacement to old Nuclear Stockpile socdev, and aim to provide more depth, usab...

Lamounier https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eCj6tgdwhDCIBKDglIsppj-fespn02EoOx-tTtqRpIE/edit

Lamounier 11-Feb-21 04:02 PM

Pinned a message.

Critical Existence Failure 12-Feb-21 01:43 AM

Question about subediologies, is every nation with content getting unique ones?

Critical Existence Failure Question about subediologies, is every nation with content getting unique ones?

Walker Of Chaos 12-Feb-21 03:25 AM

No, generally speaking subideologies aren't unique

Critical Existence Failure 12-Feb-21 03:25 AM

oh

Walker Of Chaos No, generally speaking subideologies aren't unique

Critical Existence Failure 12-Feb-21 03:26 AM

there are exceptions though right?

~~zhdanov cough cough~~

Hippie Spiro Agnew 12-Feb-21 03:27 AM

Yeah

But most would fit into the ones we have

Walker Of Chaos 12-Feb-21 03:31 AM

Some are unique but the generics can cover a LOT of situations

Hippie Spiro Agnew 12-Feb-21 03:31 AM

Yup

Targai 12-Feb-21 09:14 AM

It's basically just a 'do we wanna do it'

calph (got damn) 13-Feb-21 12:21 AM

Reminder, " @Toolbox Theory Development As part of the usual Dev-TL RT we'll be inviting you onto the RT after the Dev-TL portion has closed. The time will be approximately 2:30 - 2:45pm EST (Depends how long the usual Dev-TL meeting takes) and in it we'll come to a decision on the necessary scope to fix up TT, any major additions or changes we need to go through with for it, etc. " Thisll be in about 12 hrs.

@Toolbox Theory Development ^

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 01:32 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 06:16 AM

scoodoop 13-Feb-21 06:25 AM

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 06:27 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 08:07 AM

Metal Gear Kraken 13-Feb-21 10:38 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 11:13 AM

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 11:17 AM

shouldnt someone be assigned to like

integrate TT for africa

Bamba 13-Feb-21 11:19 AM

@Volkorel was assigned for it with Atomic iirc

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 11:19 AM

I hear the drums echoing tonight

@AtomicFalco Let's split Africa between

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:39 AM

@Fedacking do you know why army expenditure is so high?

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 11:39 AM

@OPAsian mils or army manpower count maybe

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:40 AM

still, 25% of GDP is a lot

OPAsian @Fedacking do you know why army expenditure is so high?

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:40 AM

yep

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 11:40 AM

maybe ask how much mils hes using, i dont think i have reached that high with 23 divs as iberia

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:40 AM

what country

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:40 AM

England

OPAsian England

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:40 AM

howe many soldiers?

and mil factories

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:40 AM

He got 13 Göring Anti-Göring divisions iirc

OPAsian He got 13 Göring Anti-Göring divisions iirc

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:41 AM

let's rerun the numbers after I make that scale with gdpc

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 11:42 AM

Are we having the meeting in 15 minutes?

Fetti (Lil Break) Are we having the meeting in 15 minutes?

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:43 AM

45 if my math is correct

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:43 AM

It should be 15 mins

OPAsian It should be 15 mins

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:44 AM

approximately 2:30 - 2:45pm EST

https://discord.com/channels/805758885595971605/805768932303831060/810048060095725569

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:44 AM

ah shit im stupid

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:44 AM

you have to be in 15 tho

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:44 AM

i was thinking of the general TL meet

Fedacking howe many soldiers?

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:45 AM

we deffo need to reduce the costs

OPAsian we deffo need to reduce the costs

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:50 AM

fun fact this is after I halved the costs of the army

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:50 AM

OPAsian

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:51 AM

I'll push poverty effects + that change in one big push

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 11:51 AM

Very cool

calph (got damn) 13-Feb-21 11:59 AM

@Toolbox Theory Development Heads up 30-45 mins (depends on length of TL meeting) before we do the joint TT meeting

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:00 PM

jesusツ - UwU 13-Feb-21 12:01 PM

let me join//////

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:05 PM

Let me in

Let me innnnnn

1

AtomicFalco 13-Feb-21 12:10 PM

@Volkorel Sure, how do you want to split the work ?

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:12 PM

@AtomicFalco I would like to take Italian and Iberian colonies; North and East Africa

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:12 PM

ah yes the content full nations of...no one

does algeria have content

AtomicFalco 13-Feb-21 12:13 PM

I thought that part was under Trium jusrisdiction

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:13 PM

Algeria got nuked iirc

who? (break) does algeria have content

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:13 PM

Doesn't matter, TT integration also means starting position

AtomicFalco 13-Feb-21 12:13 PM

What I was mainly concerned about was German Africa + SAF

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:14 PM

Okay that's more easy, how about firstly working on SAF and non-Hüttig RK's since their content are limited

AtomicFalco 13-Feb-21 12:14 PM

Yeah

Zentralafrika is iirc the most economically involved nation of the bunch, so that may need more time than Ost and Südwest

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:15 PM

TT integrated africa, awaiting the day zentralafrika invades cape town again

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:15 PM

In that case, and assuming you have more information on that rather than me, you should take Zent. definitely

AtomicFalco 13-Feb-21 12:15 PM

Sure

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:15 PM

I will take the Südwest if it's alrighty

AtomicFalco 13-Feb-21 12:16 PM

Yeah, that works for me

calph (got damn) 13-Feb-21 12:16 PM

@Toolbox Theory Development early owned, we're beginning the TL-Dev-TT discussion now

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:16 PM

RFK finished last night, things left are Thurmond, tests, and balance

As for Thurmond I'll finish him today

AtomicFalco Yeah, that works for me

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:16 PM

Alrighty, we can work on Hüttig once the easier ones finished in my opinion, how about Boers and SAF?

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 12:16 PM

Market

Volkorel Alrighty, we can work on Hüttig once the easier ones finished in my opinion, how about Boers and SAF?

AtomicFalco 13-Feb-21 12:17 PM

Yeah

Massena 13-Feb-21 12:17 PM

The economy is a gold bar

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:18 PM

Would you like to work on SAF or Boers? Also probably should make the starting position of the anti-Apartheid revolt that I forgot their name

calph (got damn) 13-Feb-21 12:18 PM

@DocOverbuild3 you bastard get in here

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:19 PM

@Fedacking you too (if you can make it)

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:19 PM

@Fedacking argentino, metete

Volkorel Would you like to work on SAF or Boers? Also probably should make the starting position of the anti-Apartheid revolt that I forgot their name

AtomicFalco 13-Feb-21 12:20 PM

Yeah I can work on them, it should be rather straight-forward

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:21 PM

Who would be down to TT integrate Yunnan and Indonesia BTW, now that Heend is gone? I could work on China (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:21 PM

OFN foreign policy was mostly a "Threaten Japan" tree

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:21 PM

I'm already integrating TT in Russia and balancing stuff so I'll keep doing that

Oveja @Fedacking argentino, metete

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:21 PM

lo tenia timeado para 15 min mas

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:22 PM

Alrighty, we can talk about the details after the RT than To compile; Zentralafrika; Atomic Südwest; Volk SAF; Atomic(?) Boer; Atomic(?) Anti Apartheid Revolt; Atomic

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:22 PM

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:25 PM

The issue with toolbox

The Laws throughtlt fuck russia balancing

The numbers add up horribly

I'm not sure you guys can hear my voice

the 13-Feb-21 12:26 PM

this can be fixed later

Fetti (Lil Break) I'm not sure you guys can hear my voice

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:26 PM

no

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:26 PM

Yeah gimme a moment

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:27 PM

I did a lot of debuff reduction

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:27 PM

we were on a design high

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:27 PM

So the debuffs should now be way less punishing

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:27 PM

Scope should be kept low, and content can be expanded in the future

For example, the OFN diplomatic aspect can be left for US facelift / the ST OFN GUI

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:28 PM

ouch

mine ears have heard the glory

4

the 13-Feb-21 12:28 PM

@Fetti (Lil Break) use push to talk

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:28 PM

yeah TT should be focused exclusively on fundamental mechanics

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:29 PM

OFN GUI

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:29 PM

I did that for RFK, gotta wait for the test results

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:29 PM

ok so how do we improve TT to not suck?

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:29 PM

A lot of stuff you do as RFK increases cost

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:29 PM

I think it needs to be scaled down

It feels impressive to see but it doesn't add up to the content

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

I've said this before but debt needs to have far more impact on gameplay than it does currently

Lamounier I've said this before but debt needs to have far more impact on gameplay than it does currently

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

100%

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

Feels more of a coding flex rather than anything

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

But you have to also be able to control debt

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

And it also needs to display accurately when exactly is debt going to become a problem for you

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

Like actually do stuff to make your spending not massive

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

we also have the issue that nazi, capitalist and communist economies all feel the same

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

return of the xbox live mic

7

North China Unionist - 變性權利 return of the xbox live mic

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

the gates of brazil

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:30 PM

And I was told my mic was bad

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:31 PM

the gates of debbel

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:31 PM

debbel is that you

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:31 PM

I literally

Oveja And I was told my mic was bad

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:31 PM

every south american mic is one from hell

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:31 PM

Was kicked off my home for the weekend

Im using a shitty 20 bucks one

Walker Of Chaos we also have the issue that nazi, capitalist and communist economies all feel the same

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:31 PM

hitler, stalin and keynes defeated by tno economy

Fetti (Lil Break) Im using a shitty 20 bucks one

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:31 PM

It's very bad, you should rather use text

the 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

wtf is a mic

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

oveja's sounds like a microwave, yours sound like a fucking static TV

4

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

the production system sounds like a good idea

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

PURE SOUND QUALITY

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

WHAT IS THAT SOUND

Eternal Iberian 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

record it I want to listen to it (edited)

2

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

I think it can work, I LIKE the effectiveness system, but as it stands, the laws are useless, good or crippling

Oveja WHAT IS THAT SOUND

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

I think it's fedacking

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

Damn...........

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

South American Mic Syndrome

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

South American Mic

Yeah lol

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

it also sounds like it can allow us to portray benefits of diplo unification instead of conquest in Russia

OPAsian I think it's fedacking

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:32 PM

but my mic is muted...

what?

Fedacking but my mic is muted...

the 13-Feb-21 12:33 PM

mute in discord

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:33 PM

south american mfs talking in RT sound quality https://youtu.be/SdH13BXdNqI

Spreezo

Patrick cranks that soulja boy in low quality

Patrick cranks that soulja boy in low quality thats it

the mute in discord

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:33 PM

irl too

Walker Of Chaos it also sounds like it can allow us to portray benefits of diplo unification instead of conquest in Russia

Volkorel 13-Feb-21 12:33 PM

I really like this idea

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:33 PM

Russia is literally painful to balance and I'm seriously considering hotfixing stuff because I can't balance around how much the penalties of law fuck over, and while some tags are less affected, others, toogether with Defcon 1, fucking makes the game unplayable

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:34 PM

@calph (got damn) I think we need a better display for the current effects

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:34 PM

We think the GUI needs to be more intuitive too, it's too overwhelming

Fetti (Lil Break) Russia is literally painful to balance and I'm seriously considering hotfixing stuff because I can't balance around how much the penalties of law fuck over, and while some tags are less affected, others, toogether with Defcon 1, fucking makes the game unplayable

the 13-Feb-21 12:34 PM

tno is meant to be played on normal difficulty

the tno is meant to be played on normal difficulty

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:34 PM

It still applies to normal, though.

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:35 PM

wasn't there a while where we changed all the difficulties to have the same effects?

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:35 PM

A tag can be forced on a draft law and suddenly have -99% productivity

Walker Of Chaos wasn't there a while where we changed all the difficulties to have the same effects?

the 13-Feb-21 12:35 PM

that was only so testers wouldn't play the mod on other difficulties

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:35 PM

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:35 PM

Defcon 1 literally freezes and rebegins production at random non-stop

3

Fetti (Lil Break) A tag can be forced on a draft law and suddenly have -99% productivity

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:35 PM

The true russian experience

Fetti (Lil Break) Defcon 1 literally freezes and rebegins production at random non-stop

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:36 PM

i remember that issue from fucking Dont Surf

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:36 PM

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:36 PM

Yeah it still is happening. Some laws are fine, but for example Slavery

the that was only so testers wouldn't play the mod on other difficulties

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:36 PM

ah

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:36 PM

Whatever bonus it might have is fucked over by the cons, which is fine, but makes it just be another thing slapped that the tag suffers together with the laws fucking it non-stop

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:37 PM

Hey Doc

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:37 PM

hey doc

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:39 PM

I agree, scope of TT should be reconsidered and the effect on patch development needs to be addressed

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:40 PM

A considerable part of the TT that envisioned it as it is isn't around anymore

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:40 PM

And things cut out of the scope could be added in in the future perhaps

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:41 PM

Laws rework please

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:41 PM

@calph (got damn) the only thing is the effects of poverty

This is what I proposed to cpr

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/808069365726838845/808075470713258075/unknown.png

it's based on the old rates

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:41 PM

ooooo

i like that

TNO has used way too many linear functions

OPAsian TNO has used way too many linear functions

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:42 PM

these are a bunch of linear funcitons

fun fact this is not derivable

2

Fedacking these are a bunch of linear funcitons

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:42 PM

yeah but its better than one straight line

1

Flaxbeard 13-Feb-21 12:43 PM

Can we recruit economists to the team to design the graphs New role

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:43 PM

no more conssttruction

Flaxbeard Can we recruit economists to the team to design the graphs New role

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:43 PM

ultimate battle: The Keynesian vs the Communist

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:44 PM

@calph (got damn) I have a question on the productions system

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:44 PM

Did you guys see the Rei notes?

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:44 PM

Is there a desiugn document?

OPAsian ultimate battle: The Keynesian vs the Communist

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

wait you can't leak torch of liberty content

1

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

I would like to have a framework to start coding

who? (break) wait you can't leak torch of liberty content

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

The Economist

moyme 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

oop i sent the proposed cold war gui redesign into the wrong chat

Fedacking fun fact this is not derivable

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

*not completely derivable

smh

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

also we are using nr.2 because nr.1 will give CPR a stroke

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

So, my first and immediate take for fixing up the Econ System's issues is re-implementing the Industrial Production system that got shot down forever ago. E.g. - Remove State-Base Factories, Re-Focusing around State-GDP-Contribution - To fulfill the role of production, have the Production system utilize two concepts: - Productive Capacity - Representative of the overall possible production - Drawn from some calculation of Econ Vars - Exact details aren't as important as that it happens - Productive Tokens - Tokens are, in game terms, the individual factories given to the player for this or that. Tokens fundamentally divide Productive Capacity equally, and the player can draw more or less to serve their particular need Benefits: - Way easier to balance, and gives a good solution for areas impossible to balance like Russian Warlords - Strictly ties the Econ System to very obvious in-game effects - The current Production & Construction systems are kinda just hanging out and are some of the best examples of how TNO is a mod for a different game kinda just on HOI4. The systems just don't work with TNO as-is, and this change is a step forward to fixing that. - Beyond strictly Productive Capacity & Productive Tokens, this system is pretty much already put together, State-based GDP is already kept & calculated (though it's calculation will need to change) and the Econ System would need minor revision to handle this. It's a cheap change. Problems: - W/o some thought, it'd essentially gut construction - Buuut tbqh I personally don't care, Construction simply isn't used enough to make this concern a big one. - Further, I think there are a few smart solutions for this - It may drastically change balance, and require us to re-balance a lot of stuff going forward.

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

watch me form the derivate in the (24;+inf) interval (edited)

North China Unionist - 變性權利 *not completely derivable

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

it's not dderivable on it's domain (? it's dominio in spanish)

CPR 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

Global maps are tough lol

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

reposted the token system

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:45 PM

yep

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:46 PM

for those who are too lazy to check pins

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:46 PM

what the fuck lam with a mic

what is this

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:46 PM

cant fucking wait for my screen to have a stroke to show the cold war gui

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:46 PM

Should the notes be posted here?

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:46 PM

@HEEREMA INDUSTRIES post notes

Market Mechanic... Rice Cookers...

HEEREMA INDUSTRIES 13-Feb-21 12:46 PM

stoopid ass

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:46 PM

Guangdong...

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:47 PM

Yeah I agree that we need the market mechanic

HEEREMA INDUSTRIES 13-Feb-21 12:47 PM

hitachi............ magic wand...............

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:47 PM

I remember when Valrin cut the Guangdong Market Mechanic... Full Circle...

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

CSS is now taking over

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

oh lol thats right the first 15 minutes were posted

Oveja CSS is now taking over

HEEREMA INDUSTRIES 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

TNO is now Ashes of Libertad

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/805766736543875083/810174155243651113/image0.gif

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

we should probably remove the doc link

DocOverbuild3 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

Yeah

There’s some big stuff in there

moyme 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

ah fuck i figured i shouldve explained it immediately

DocOverbuild3 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

@Walker Of Chaos congrats

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

thanks

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:48 PM

epic doc link fail

DocOverbuild3 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

All roads from US team lead to dev_hole

Hippie Spiro Agnew 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

DocOverbuild3 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

Fuck you Germany team

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

Why am i so retarded

Hippie Spiro Agnew 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

@DocOverbuild3 You were Germany team

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

i'm reminded of how we accidentally leaked JFK's death in Don't Surf (edited)

Hippie Spiro Agnew 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

My idea consists of the following We don't change the resources in the trade screen to variables, instead we keep them as they are rn Instead, we utilize a dynamic modifier with the `country_resource_(x)` modifiers as a way for the addition and subtraction of resources via trading to work This allows us to directly add or remove production of resources in the country-tag level without requiring to add or remove resources on states We also do away with the traditional out-of-resource penalties by setting the `production_lack_of_resource_penalty_factor` to a permanent zero Instead, we make it so when the stockpile of a resource reaches zero, it applies a determined penalty to the country, much like how Stellaris operates This means we'll simply be adding the new trading system on top of the regular resource system, so that other systems dependant on it (like the production system) would require little to no changes

DocOverbuild3 Fuck you Germany team

moyme 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:49 PM

@Walker Of Chaos the pure team lead grows smaller by day

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:50 PM

An overhaul to the production and trade system will actually be fucking HUGE for Guangdong and China

It would be super based

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:50 PM

Maybe Mexico

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:50 PM

man i just want to produce guns as ostafrika

1

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:50 PM

Seeing industrialization having visible effects

Would be

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:50 PM

Whatever that can tame down how the penalties stack in Russia would be appreciated

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:50 PM

though one quick question

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:50 PM

I'm so sick of Defcon 1

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:50 PM

petition the hoi4 devs to give us access to full game control using effect commands in the next patch

(edited)

DocOverbuild3 13-Feb-21 12:51 PM

@Oveja Oh and congrats to you too

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:51 PM

does the proposed production system work via adding offmap factories or does it use something other than factories to make equipment?

DocOverbuild3 @Oveja Oh and congrats to you too

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:51 PM

Thanks fam, you brought me here and I'm really grateful

Lamounier

My idea consists of the following We don't change the resources in the trade screen to variables, instead we keep them as they are rn Instead, we utilize a dynamic modifier with the `country_resource_(x)` modifiers as a way for the addition and subtraction of resources via trading to work This allows us to directly add or remove production of resources in the country-tag level without requiring to add or remove resources on states We also do away with the traditional out-of-resource penalties by setting the `production_lack_of_resource_penalty_factor` to a permanent zero Instead, we make it so when the stockpile of a resource reaches zero, it applies a determined penalty to the country, much like how Stellaris operates This means we'll simply be adding the new trading system on top of the regular resource system, so that other systems dependant on it (like the production system) would require little to no changes

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 12:51 PM

Pinned a message.

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:52 PM

My concern is just the stacking of penalties of the laws

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:52 PM

Oveja becoming a dev in 4 months shows CSS supremacy

DocOverbuild3 13-Feb-21 12:52 PM

I feel like Lozano when his son got elected president @Oveja @Walker Of Chaos

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:52 PM

Gesundheit

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:52 PM

But at this point I'm just being annoying

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 12:52 PM

Bless you

CPR 13-Feb-21 12:52 PM

bless

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:52 PM

bless

So

Before we wrap

DocOverbuild3 I feel like Lozano when his son got elected president @Oveja @Walker Of Chaos

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

Gortari told his dad: "Dad, we've finally made it, we're finally here."

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

I have one question

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

can we talk about this (edited)

https://www.reddit.com/r/TNOmod/comments/lj6tb3/petition_to_get_new_devs_for_the_tno_project/ (edited)

r/TNOmod - Petition to get new devs for the TNO project

0 votes and 27 comments so far on Reddit

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

@North China Unionist - 變性權利 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/805766736543875083/810174155243651113/image0.gif

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

So we're downscaling TT right

North China Unionist - 變性權利 can we talk about this (edited)

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

we are making skylar the lead dev immediatly

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

it's highly based

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

this is an executive order

HEEREMA INDUSTRIES 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

unmute me coward

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:53 PM

yup

HEEREMA INDUSTRIES 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

thats me I'm cockandballtorture34

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

I fear that it will take too much effort to manage the economy (edited)

CPR 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

the 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

so true

DocOverbuild3 I feel like Lozano when his son got elected president @Oveja @Walker Of Chaos

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

i promise not to burn down the mod in a day

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

@Walker Of Chaos too little confidence to make my point on mechanical complexity

rip mic

thanks doc has my back

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

TNOTP

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

german soldiers retreating from poland after a petition

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:54 PM

TNOTP

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:55 PM

@Oveja cual era el problema de mi mic?

Fedacking @Oveja cual era el problema de mi mic?

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:55 PM

rising noise

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:55 PM

very mature dev (edited)

5

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:55 PM

@OPAsian pls unmute

I'll mute myslef

Flaxbeard 13-Feb-21 12:55 PM

are there notes for this meeting btw

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

@HEEREMA INDUSTRIES

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

make this real

Flaxbeard 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

I can't hop on atm

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

So who's the next veteran dev on the chopping block

CPR 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

There will be @Flaxbeard

Fetti (Lil Break) So who's the next veteran dev on the chopping block

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

looking at seniority: Thunderslav

Walker Of Chaos i promise not to burn down the mod in a day

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

we'll get caught in a corruption scandal and cause the PRI to lose the 2000 elections

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

We're just Jacobins now

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

@Flaxbeard there was a doc link posted here before but it contained the actual dev stuff

1

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

Ciao

Walker Of Chaos 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

the notes kinda got messed up

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

Auf Wiedersehen und bis bald

CPR 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

So

Western China Expert 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

cockandballtorture92

who? (break) @Flaxbeard there was a doc link posted here before but it contained the actual dev stuff

Hippie Spiro Agnew 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

️

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:56 PM

In general

DocOverbuild3 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

@Oveja don’t tell them about the drug cartel, we take that to our graves

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

TT Downscaled?

HEEREMA INDUSTRIES 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

oh wait

yeah it has important stuff

Hippie Spiro Agnew 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

@HEEREMA INDUSTRIES Wrong chat

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

epic doc link fail

Hippie Spiro Agnew 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

twice

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

Western China Expert 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

nothing happened

DocOverbuild3 @Oveja don’t tell them about the drug cartel, we take that to our graves

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

Someone made the comparison that Lozano was like Hector Salamanca from Breaking Bad

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

laptop microphone

it is

Western China Expert 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

there was no doc

Oveja Someone made the comparison that Lozano was like Hector Salamanca from Breaking Bad

Western China Expert 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-hank-schrader-i-am-the-impostor-i-am-the-danger-roni-bebo-gif-19512280

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

@Fedacking

Fetti (Lil Break) laptop microphone

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

is my mic working?

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

the doc is non existant

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

I is

it is

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

I don't know why I was muted

Western China Expert https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-hank-schrader-i-am-the-impostor-i-am-the-danger-roni-bebo-gif-19512280

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

sus

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:57 PM

any mention of the doc will lead to immediate execution (edited)

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

shit I wanted to make my case and failed

DocOverbuild3 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

@Oveja Lmao that was me

Hippie Spiro Agnew 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

When the doc is sus

Western China Expert 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-hank-schrader-i-am-the-impostor-i-am-the-danger-roni-bebo-gif-19512280

DocOverbuild3 @Oveja Lmao that was me

Oveja 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

ah shit sorry for my bad memory

Western China Expert 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

Google Doc?? You got me...

HEEREMA INDUSTRIES 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GuLO6-Cl23Zn2jQRl_9y9MmkjOZBBOraR-m1cLN0vkE/edit?usp=sharing

Toolbox Theory Integration Meeting 2/13/2021

Toolbox Theory Integration Meeting 2/13/2021 New economics systems proposed for TT Reworking factories to remove state based factories Foreign policy interaction rework Expanding diplomatic content by reworking their overall foreign policy and intreactions of the factions Reworking Russian reunif...

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

I still want a law rework

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

reading straight up CIA files here in this doc it has what happened the day i did your mom

Fetti (Lil Break) TT Downscaled?

The Xenophobic Fascist 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

yes, by a lot

OPAsian 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

oh see there is the doc

there never was another doc

1

Fetti (Lil Break) 13-Feb-21 12:58 PM

Hell yeah

OPAsian there never was another doc

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:59 PM

too late

2

1

Western China Expert 13-Feb-21 12:59 PM

@Targai the bongos

they're back

who? (break) 13-Feb-21 12:59 PM

i accept payment by paypal

Hippie Spiro Agnew 13-Feb-21 01:00 PM

jesusツ - UwU 13-Feb-21 01:25 PM

dayu,

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:29 PM

@CPR @Lamounier do you have a good idea to show the effects of poverty, all of the fundings and the gdp per capita?

right now it's all tooltips

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 09:34 PM

Don't think there's a lot of other ways to do this besides tooltips tbh

Lamounier Don't think there's a lot of other ways to do this besides tooltips tbh

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:35 PM

another screen popping up to the right of the economy tab maybe?

like have a funding effects button here

more likely that the player will see it

and then we have a screen with mucho texto

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 09:35 PM

Not there, on the header instead

Like how the game rules thingy is situated on the politics screen

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:35 PM

"impact of the economy"

oh I like that

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 09:36 PM

I wanna keep that space of the GUI free for now in case we do changes and need space to add more stuff

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:36 PM

do we give it the "user experience arrows"

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 09:36 PM

wym

oh

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:36 PM

these things

Lamounier 13-Feb-21 09:36 PM

Don't think that's needed

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:37 PM

I think the most important of those ones is the Spanish one

without those arrows legit I would have lost to terrorism (edited)

Lamounier Don't think that's needed

the 13-Feb-21 09:37 PM

you're underestimating the player's ability to not find a button

the you're underestimating the player's ability to not find a button

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:37 PM

this tbh

CPR 13-Feb-21 09:40 PM

A button in the header could work for like a "Detailed Stats Window" if you think we need it

And yeah the arrows are always a good idea, the player is blind

CPR A button in the header could work for like a "Detailed Stats Window" if you think we need it

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:41 PM

I think it would be a nice dashboard for the players to have an idea what the economy does

we keep the tooltips

and use those loc keys for that screen

CPR 13-Feb-21 09:41 PM

Yeah keep the tooltips obv, but like you said, being able to see some of the more in-depth stats would be good

Most of the values already exist too (hopefully) so there wouldn't be much extra math needed either (edited)

the 13-Feb-21 09:43 PM

arrows only exists because people couldn't figure out the political tab GUIs button exists (edited)

the arrows only exists because people couldn't figure out the political tab GUIs button exists (edited)

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 09:44 PM

honestly without the arrows I wouldn't imagine this is a button

CPR 13-Feb-21 09:45 PM

I didn't save the arrows meme

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 10:29 PM

@OPAsian

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 10:57 PM

SDockyard

scoodoop 13-Feb-21 10:57 PM

economy

scoodoop economy

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:03 PM

shut it

Fedacking shut it

scoodoop 13-Feb-21 11:03 PM

debt

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 11:03 PM

stonks

scoodoop 13-Feb-21 11:03 PM

poverty

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:03 PM

fun fact I have yet to remove the old poverty so it's double dipping

scoodoop 13-Feb-21 11:04 PM

North China Unionist - 變性權利 13-Feb-21 11:04 PM

when you

you are poor

the 13-Feb-21 11:05 PM

@Fedacking did you added poverty clamp

the @Fedacking did you added poverty clamp

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:06 PM

yes

the 13-Feb-21 11:08 PM

~~smh use one line~~

2

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:09 PM

higher gdp per capita than argentina now (edited)

the 13-Feb-21 11:15 PM

why is GDP per capita only available as a tooltip

the why is GDP per capita only available as a tooltip

Fedacking 13-Feb-21 11:44 PM

because I don't want to modify this interface

so because it still doesn't haev an effect

I put ithere

Fetti (Lil Break) 14-Feb-21 04:54 AM

Imahine

Being poor

Walker Of Chaos 15-Feb-21 11:51 AM

@Toolbox Theory Development Greetings. As mentioned in yesterdays advancement the dev team has decided to rethink TT in order to ensure the patch meet its full potential and provides a satisfactory experience. Over the course of the next few weeks we're gonna be going back to the design phase of its mechanics and ensuring they all function properly and are meaningful. In the interests of a more structured development process I will also be taking the role on TT lead to help coordinate the work here. Contact me if you ever need help with anything/don't have anything to do and I will do my best to help. As part of this I've also set up a suggestion box where you can propose any changes you want to see in TT. You can of course also discuss such changes here in the chat if you want to. I look forward to working with you all on this. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSesyzGNw7tO-M2wvETLlNK5czmRW_Qa6O03dk1K6bzN0sAJfA/viewform?usp=sf_link

TT Suggestion Box

As we revisit the design of TT we're looking for suggestions on how to improve it. This can be anything from slight mechanical tweaks to wholesale adding new mechanics. NOTE Just because something is suggested does not guarantee we'll actually do it.

Walker Of Chaos @Toolbox Theory Development Greetings. As mentioned in yesterdays advancement the dev team has decided to rethink TT in order to ensure the patch meet its full potential and provides a satisfactory experience. Over the course of the next few weeks we're gonna be going back to the design phase of its mechanics and ensuring they all function properly and are meaningful. In the interests of a more structured development process I will also be taking the role on TT lead to help coordinate the work here. Contact me if you ever need help with anything/don't have anything to do and I will do my best to help. As part of this I've also set up a suggestion box where you can propose any changes you want to see in TT. You can of course also discuss such changes here in the chat if you want to. I look forward to working with you all on this. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSesyzGNw7tO-M2wvETLlNK5czmRW_Qa6O03dk1K6bzN0sAJfA/viewform?usp=sf_link

Walker Of Chaos 15-Feb-21 11:51 AM

Pinned a message.

North China Unionist - 變性權利 15-Feb-21 11:54 AM

Original message was deleted.

Lamounier 15-Feb-21 11:54 AM

Pinned a message.

who? (break) 15-Feb-21 11:56 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) 15-Feb-21 12:07 PM

What's the Toolbox Theory meme name

Goth Asuka 15-Feb-21 12:10 PM

Toolbutts theory

Kyiv_Worker 15-Feb-21 12:12 PM

Shoebox Theory

North China Unionist - 變性權利 15-Feb-21 12:14 PM

I mean TT is just enough tbh

who? (break) 15-Feb-21 12:14 PM

@North China Unionist - 變性權利 booba

Fetti (Lil Break) What's the Toolbox Theory meme name

Fedacking 15-Feb-21 12:15 PM

Toolbox Tides

scoodoop 15-Feb-21 12:17 PM

TikTok

The Xenophobic Fascist 15-Feb-21 12:25 PM

are people outside of TT dev allowed to make suggestions

The Xenophobic Fascist are people outside of TT dev allowed to make suggestions

OPAsian 15-Feb-21 12:28 PM

sure

Fetti (Lil Break) 15-Feb-21 12:33 PM

Titting Tides

Oveja 15-Feb-21 12:34 PM

I'm thinking that maybe Incarceration and Rehabilitation penal system laws should have costs

Though maybe not incarceration, at least not until TNO2 probably

Though Rehabilitation should have some sort of cost, considering it's going to require programs and all sorts of infrastructure and personnel to install at a national scale

Fetti (Lil Break) 15-Feb-21 01:16 PM

It costs a lot to keep a incarceration system, asks the US.

But again hits of how feasible can we represent that

Oveja 15-Feb-21 02:19 PM

That's why I said it should probably be in TNO2

Based on prison population, to represent how it begins exponentially growing around this time period

Oveja Based on prison population, to represent how it begins exponentially growing around this time period

Walker Of Chaos 15-Feb-21 02:39 PM

I mean tbh with the POD and the different paths countries can go down I don’t think its guaranteed we see this

Fetti (Lil Break) 15-Feb-21 03:30 PM

Like I put in the request there should be some flexibility to go through laws. Sure some countries would very much require bills like the US, but the Russian Warlords, or say the Civil War states would probably have a better flexibility to adjust. You can give something like a year delay between a single law change, and a cost of PP depending on who is using that law change. Set a visible so you won't have cases like the AB allowing LGBT Rights for example

You can also set an efficiency cost so somebody can't just port their 100% with no problem

Getting bigger the higher in the "tier" is the law

And of course lock some options. Tomsk shouldn't have access to kill em all as a supervision I.e

Oveja 15-Feb-21 05:07 PM

Might want to make it so that scripted effects that change laws also divide the current effectiveness

(not sure if that's already the case, I've just been setting the variable manually at every law change to be sure)

Oveja (not sure if that's already the case, I've just been setting the variable manually at every law change to be sure)

the 15-Feb-21 06:15 PM

it's not, also because for example how to divide if you just directly swap an idea

the it's not, also because for example how to divide if you just directly swap an idea

Oveja 15-Feb-21 06:46 PM

Yeah good point

Also editing all the scripted effects would be a ton of work

Walker Of Chaos 15-Feb-21 11:24 PM

It’s best that changing effectiveness be done on a case by case basis to best fit the situation

Walker Of Chaos 16-Feb-21 05:02 AM

@Toolbox Theory Development While we're still collecting suggestions I also want us to just start talking about possible ways to handle the goals of TT. Roughly speaking I'd say TT has 2 goals, those being: 1. To make the economy system actually meaningful and engaging 2. Provide a base for meaningful diplomatic content There's also some other stuff about tutorials but the above is what we should primarily be focusing on. For the economy the general consensus seems to be that the production token system proposed by Calph (you can see an outline in the pins) is the way to go. We're not gonna code anything yet but I want us to be thinking about ways in which it could be done. For diplomacy the primary problem with most TNO diplomacy right now, especially the crises, is that it's mostly event chain based and with little mechanical backing. I don't think anyone here would disagree when I say that the current implementation of crises feels unsatisfying and arbitrary. Having a shrimp boat end the world is fun the first time, not so much the 657th time. As you've seen we've already got a proposed more functional Cold War GUI pinned that I want us to be looking at. These goals are not distinct. In my opinion the more closely we can tie economics and the global situation the better. We want the player to feel like they live in a connected world and that domestic and foreign concerns can't be fully separated, especially if they are a big player. Different means to achieve this will have to be considered, whether they be markets, spheres or other methods. Remember we're in a design phase so pretty much anything goes right now, the important thing is we fully think this stuff out.

jesusツ - UwU 16-Feb-21 07:55 AM

since TT is in design phase again will anything be released in the mean time? like AM or no expansion trees and such?

Hippie Spiro Agnew 16-Feb-21 07:56 AM

AM most likely, still discussing no expansion trees

Fetti (Lil Break) 16-Feb-21 08:49 AM

AM and general tweaks, from what I'm feeling

Lamounier 16-Feb-21 10:59 AM

Rewritten ideology code names for TT social_democrat -> social_democracy social_liberal -> liberal_democracy social_conservative -> conservative_democracy authoritarian_democrat -> authoritarian_democracy ultranational_socialism -> ultranationalism

7

Lamounier Rewritten ideology code names for TT social_democrat -> social_democracy social_liberal -> liberal_democracy social_conservative -> conservative_democracy authoritarian_democrat -> authoritarian_democracy ultranational_socialism -> ultranationalism

Lamounier 16-Feb-21 10:59 AM

Pinned a message.

Fetti (Lil Break) 16-Feb-21 11:05 AM

thank god

Fillmore, Lord Goring 16-Feb-21 11:34 AM

overall a pretty smart change but it might be a pain in the ass to change everything

North China Unionist - 變性權利 16-Feb-21 11:35 AM

Ctrl-Shift-H

Fillmore, Lord Goring overall a pretty smart change but it might be a pain in the ass to change everything

Lamounier 16-Feb-21 11:59 AM

I already did that

Fillmore, Lord Goring 16-Feb-21 12:00 PM

Powerful

Lamounier 16-Feb-21 12:00 PM

It's going to need to be done again once TT is merged into the patch branches but it really isn't that hard

Fetti (Lil Break) 16-Feb-21 01:34 PM

It's better to rip the band-aid now than later

KingOfPandas 16-Feb-21 01:59 PM

oh man that's gonna be fun to change

KingOfPandas oh man that's gonna be fun to change

the 16-Feb-21 02:52 PM

it can easily be automatized

Lamounier 16-Feb-21 02:52 PM

^

KingOfPandas 16-Feb-21 02:52 PM

ok

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:05 AM

Right so to ensure that I'm practicing what I'm preaching and not just handing down commandments from on high here is my rough sketch for a design of the production token things Military factories are removed from the map entirely (unsure about civilian). All production is handled via adding and removing offmap factories behind the scenes (the production tokens) -The player has a "cap" that tells them the theoretical highest amount of factories they could support at any given moment --The actual amount of factories the player actually received is based on a slider (would likely replace construction buget). Tradeoff between high amount of factories vs economic damage from mobilizing so much of industry for war ---Slider changes are not instant, there should be some warmup time before they receive the full amount of factories ---Goal is to encourage the player to tone down production during peace time --The cap is calculated off of economic factors (GDP) + other relevant factors (I think industrial and admin socdev can be useful here) ---Ideally we make this easily modifiable so national spirits could also affect the cap ---A primitive version of sectors to determine how much of GDP comes from industry could maybe be used? -The goal here is to provide the player with actual tangible rewards for developing their economy and maintaining good socdcev without overhwleming the player --This should also allow us to prevent countries snowballing whenever they conquer shit --In Russia specifically this should be an incentive for diplomatic unification since blowing up the other guy would give you much less economic benefits than peacefully merging with em -Ideally I'd want some mechanical tie in that could differentiate different economic models, so capitalists relying on contractors, planned economies having direct control and the like but I'm not fully certain how to do this yet --Contractors could maybe be something like companies offering to do X in exchange for Y cash?

We'd also need to decide if we want to completely stop using vanilla construction or if there is still a place for it somewhere

Thoughts, comments, questions or concerns with this @Toolbox Theory Development (apologies for pinging so often). We're in the design phase so if you feel this is a horrible idea that deserves to be burned down please say so

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:07 AM

IMO vanilla construction still works, so having separate construction tokens would work as wel

Vanilla construction might need some cost fixes

Basically removing civvies from the map as well as millies

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:08 AM

Yeah I figure we could either have a separate construction tokens and they as well as production tokens are drawn from the same "pool"

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:08 AM

Ooooo

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:08 AM

or we go with having any unused production tokens being used as civilian tokens (edited)

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:08 AM

I would rather have them drawn from the same pool

Show how Total War works

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:09 AM

The one thing I think there is a good arguement for keeping on the map is dockyards

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:09 AM

when the krieg is totaler

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:09 AM

I'm on the fence on this change, personally saying.

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:09 AM

but those are also useless

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:09 AM

NO ME LIKE BIG SHIPS

3

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:09 AM

navies are important in the Cold War mechanic

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:10 AM

It's a good way to make the system more dynamic and tie Toolbox mechanics, you have a concrete reason to care about the economy system, as it allows you to have more factories

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:10 AM

they can be used for it

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:10 AM

The biggest issue will be that we have to fill the building slots in states with something so they arent empty

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:10 AM

My main pet peeve is with the Russian situation (wow fetti can you stfu about russia)

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:10 AM

@Walker Of Chaos I have my own alternate take in regards to this, give me a mo and I'll do a writeup

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:11 AM

please do

more ideas = good

OPAsian The biggest issue will be that we have to fill the building slots in states with something so they arent empty

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:11 AM

resource buildings? civilian facilities (ie housing or something)?

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:11 AM

I don't want to make the diplomatic approach of unification THAT big of a buff. Like yeah, it's the better one, but I don't think punishing the player heavily in case they fail or just wanna invade

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:11 AM

We could do new buildings

Resource buildings and housing could give statewide buffs

Like more housing = more population growth

Fetti (Lil Break) My main pet peeve is with the Russian situation (wow fetti can you stfu about russia)

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:11 AM

Russia I feel would be the biggest problem with this sytem but also the biggest beneficiary of it, one thing I considered is enabling the economy from the start but I'd really want @Hippie Spiro Agnew take on it

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

I already said before I think, but I feel for Russia the system should work somewhat differently, same with a bigger flexibility of law

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

maybe we could have actual silos and anti-nuke defenses present that give Cold War points?

Hippie Spiro Agnew 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Enabling the economy would solve a lot of headaches

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

The entire design of it is it's own micro-cosmos

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

civilian buildings could be good, especially if @Lamounier gets his dream of a power system

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

I feel enabling the economy on the start is a good path, yeah.

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Nuke bunkers

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Lemme do my writeup

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:12 AM

no

you're too slow

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:13 AM

I have everything being discussed here more or less thought out

OPAsian Nuke bunkers

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:13 AM

unironically yeah cuz things like Star Wars and stuff were seen as important to winning the Cold War

~~not saying they were irl but they could be a factor in the points system because of public perception~~

Hippie Spiro Agnew 17-Feb-21 08:15 AM

Disabled economy for Russian states is another relic of a time when it was considered a post apoc wasteland basically

Alongside the over the top bombings

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:15 AM

stupid slavs can't figure out numbers and graphs

Hippie Spiro Agnew 17-Feb-21 08:15 AM

We nerfed the bombings at least

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:15 AM

if you're not opposed i'm all for enabling it

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:15 AM

do they even know what a rubble is anymore?

Hippie Spiro Agnew 17-Feb-21 08:15 AM

Like there's no reason say Novosibirsk shouldn't have an economy enabled

Yeah I'd be down for enabling it

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:16 AM

Im gonna make the Xinjiang Economy Disabled at start considering the system is literally substinence farming combined with opium export at game start

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:16 AM

we could just have the bombings nerf the economies

Hippie Spiro Agnew 17-Feb-21 08:16 AM

Ohh yeah

Better effects for that spirit

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:16 AM

Bombings reducing the GDP growth to 1% is good

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:16 AM

or just reduce the rate of growth

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 08:17 AM

finally

building the Russian deficit since 1962

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 08:28 AM

Perhaps going with a "universal" industrial token could be the way to go?

Which represents overall industrial capacity without taking "specialisation" into account

Then you have a slider which determines your ratio alloted to civilian econ and military production

Civilian allotment allows you to grow your sum of industrial tokens faster, while military obviously focusses on military

With the ratios affecting your economic health etc (edited)

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 08:33 AM

is there any way to actuall achieve surplus as russia?

ive never done it before

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:34 AM

could be. The thing I'd want to ensure we do is that the tokens won't be automatically updated according to the sliders. If you suddenly go from using 5% to 100% of the pool that should need some warmup, and if we use Sino's option flipping the slider should not instantly convert all mil factories to civilians

or i dunno that may just be extra busywork

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:35 AM

- Both military and civilian factories are removed from the map entirely. Production Tokens would be granted based on State GDPs (thus allowing for dynamic increases/decreases of Tokens as territory is captured or lost). This would mean State GDPs would have to be displayed on the State GUI, which is something I wish to go in more detail later. - Additionally, Tokens could also be directly granted through effects or rewards. - Production Tokens would then be assigned through the Economy/Production/Construction screen (my idea was to have a pop up menu by the side of these tree) to either Construction (civs) or Military production (mils). In order to not force the player to have either type of factory running when they don't want to AND to introduce a limit on the possible militarization of the economy, a third, passive component would be added - Consumer Goods. - Consumer Goods would be a proper resource, much like Steel or Oil, produced nationally through Tokens assigned through it, and which can be sold or bought on the Market as usual. - Each country would have a Consumer Goods requirement, which would depend on several factors, like population size, poverty, GDP/capita, socdev, etc. - Lack of Consumer Goods would give several negative modifiers to the affected country, mostly affecting their specific stability/popularity mechanics. - These would function similarly to vanilla's strikes/mutiny modifiers. - Additionally, Consumer Goods should be generally expensive on the Market in order to promote players to make them instead of just buying them. - Higher Mobilization laws would decrease the Consumer Goods requirement. Certain ideologies (like Ultranationalism) would do the same as well.

- In order to force the player to actualy invest in his economy to make use of it, a Power system would be introduced which would serve as a cap to the number of tokens the player can assign to any of the three categories. - Power production would be accomplished through two main state buildings - Thermoelectric Plants and Nuclear Reactors. - Thermoelectric Plants are cheap to build and maintain, and only have a mild fuel running cost. Their Power production would be limited by the country's Pollution law, with more restrictive laws decreasing their potential. - Nuclear Reactors, by comparison, are expensive, can only be built in limited numbers (one per state) and require both Uranium (which is a new resource type) to function and extensive research before they can be built. But in return, they provide a significant amount of power and can be used to assemble nuclear warheads. - Additionally, certain Hydroelectric Plants (like Hoover dam or the Gibraltar dam) could be represented through state modifiers. These won't be able to be built like the other two, since they require very specific geographical conditions and we can't limit construction to specific states in the vanilla Construction system. - TNO2 could see the introduction of renewables like Solar or Wind Plants, which would initially not be very efficient but would increase their production with time through research.

@Toolbox Theory Development

10

Walker Of Chaos could be. The thing I'd want to ensure we do is that the tokens won't be automatically updated according to the sliders. If you suddenly go from using 5% to 100% of the pool that should need some warmup, and if we use Sino's option flipping the slider should not instantly convert all mil factories to civilians

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 08:37 AM

Yeah I'd want to incorporate that

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:38 AM

@Lamounier I like it a lot

Oveja 17-Feb-21 08:39 AM

Consumer goods could function in tiers, the more you have the better for the country, the less you have the worse it gets

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:39 AM

So

Mil factories for obvious things

And Civ factories for the buildings and projects, I take?

Walker Of Chaos could be. The thing I'd want to ensure we do is that the tokens won't be automatically updated according to the sliders. If you suddenly go from using 5% to 100% of the pool that should need some warmup, and if we use Sino's option flipping the slider should not instantly convert all mil factories to civilians

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 08:39 AM

can we do this warm up thing with policy effectiveness too

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:40 AM

I thiiink I get it? I would need a visualization, just got a tad confused.

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 08:40 AM

sounds interesting

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:40 AM

One thing I want to use Consumer Goods for is for state-based econ interactions, which is something I've been toying with for a while but don't have a specific plan for yet

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:40 AM

@who? (break) i don't really see the point tbh

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 08:40 AM

but i would need to see a mockup or smth to fully understand

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:40 AM

e.g. an action to upgrade a state from a lower level of development into a higher one, for example

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:41 AM

I'd still want there to be factors other than state GDP, mainly I think the industrial socdev is a good thing to make use of here - better industry socdev makes better use of your assets = more tokens

Jake Zakkarad (7/ﭦ) 17-Feb-21 08:41 AM

is there a way to replace how military factories are used to produce stuff?

or would those tokens act like offmap factories?

Walker Of Chaos I'd still want there to be factors other than state GDP, mainly I think the industrial socdev is a good thing to make use of here - better industry socdev makes better use of your assets = more tokens

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:42 AM

Industrial Socdev already affects State GDPs, actually

We would be just keeping that while making it more visible for the player

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:42 AM

@who? (break) To explain a bit more. Policy effectivness can already have a warmup effect via the passive increase effects. Plus there would have to be some background calculations to implement the warmup and i'm not sure the minor slowdown they'd cause is worth it

Lamounier Industrial Socdev already affects State GDPs, actually

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:42 AM

huh

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 08:42 AM

@Walker Of Chaos i see

Lamounier We would be just keeping that while making it more visible for the player

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 08:42 AM

state gdp gui, a perfect tool for spreadsheet nerds

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:43 AM

I'm unironically planning on doing that

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:43 AM

can the ledger currently display your most economically valuable states?

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:43 AM

That is also something I intended on doing

Lamounier - In order to force the player to actualy invest in his economy to make use of it, a Power system would be introduced which would serve as a cap to the number of tokens the player can assign to any of the three categories. - Power production would be accomplished through two main state buildings - Thermoelectric Plants and Nuclear Reactors. - Thermoelectric Plants are cheap to build and maintain, and only have a mild fuel running cost. Their Power production would be limited by the country's Pollution law, with more restrictive laws decreasing their potential. - Nuclear Reactors, by comparison, are expensive, can only be built in limited numbers (one per state) and require both Uranium (which is a new resource type) to function and extensive research before they can be built. But in return, they provide a significant amount of power and can be used to assemble nuclear warheads. - Additionally, certain Hydroelectric Plants (like Hoover dam or the Gibraltar dam) could be represented through state modifiers. These won't be able to be built like the other two, since they require very specific geographical conditions and we can't limit construction to specific states in the vanilla Construction system. - TNO2 could see the introduction of renewables like Solar or Wind Plants, which would initially not be very efficient but would increase their production with time through research.

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:44 AM

Pinned a message.

Lamounier - Both military and civilian factories are removed from the map entirely. Production Tokens would be granted based on State GDPs (thus allowing for dynamic increases/decreases of Tokens as territory is captured or lost). This would mean State GDPs would have to be displayed on the State GUI, which is something I wish to go in more detail later. - Additionally, Tokens could also be directly granted through effects or rewards. - Production Tokens would then be assigned through the Economy/Production/Construction screen (my idea was to have a pop up menu by the side of these tree) to either Construction (civs) or Military production (mils). In order to not force the player to have either type of factory running when they don't want to AND to introduce a limit on the possible militarization of the economy, a third, passive component would be added - Consumer Goods. - Consumer Goods would be a proper resource, much like Steel or Oil, produced nationally through Tokens assigned through it, and which can be sold or bought on the Market as usual. - Each country would have a Consumer Goods requirement, which would depend on several factors, like population size, poverty, GDP/capita, socdev, etc. - Lack of Consumer Goods would give several negative modifiers to the affected country, mostly affecting their specific stability/popularity mechanics. - These would function similarly to vanilla's strikes/mutiny modifiers. - Additionally, Consumer Goods should be generally expensive on the Market in order to promote players to make them instead of just buying them. - Higher Mobilization laws would decrease the Consumer Goods requirement. Certain ideologies (like Ultranationalism) would do the same as well.

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:44 AM

Pinned a message.

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:45 AM

Guangdong swapping Consumer Goods Tokens for Military Tokens as to export goods to proxy wars

The Taikun 17-Feb-21 08:46 AM

I see separate state GDP just like population, and I'm already salivating at creating urban subdivided apartments in the three pearls or less efficient localized industry with copious rail and road infrastructure in Guangdong

@OPAsian oh hello

Legit actually though

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:46 AM

on that subject

The Taikun 17-Feb-21 08:46 AM

You could have a penalty start firing if you have too many miltokens in Guangdong as Japan and China tell you to cut that shit out

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:46 AM

God I love this concept Its gonna be so good for the entirety pf Asia

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:46 AM

anyone have any ideas for how to make infrastructure more relevant?

The Taikun You could have a penalty start firing if you have too many miltokens in Guangdong as Japan and China tell you to cut that shit out

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:46 AM

lmao

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

Infrastructure is hugely important but the HOI4 implementation of it sucks

Walker Of Chaos anyone have any ideas for how to make infrastructure more relevant?

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

Resource multipliers and significant speed debuffs?

OPAsian lmao

The Taikun 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

Make me a playstation not tanks

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

I have some ideas for it

But nothing formal yet

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

We could make them multiply state GDP

Make them cost wayyyy more and give em a higher cap

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

i'm kinda wondering if there is a way you could implement different "caps" for infrastructure in different states

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

~~I was also going to say something else but I forgot what it was~~

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

do em like Vicky2 railroads

Walker Of Chaos i'm kinda wondering if there is a way you could implement different "caps" for infrastructure in different states

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

You cannot iirc

The Taikun 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

Aren't there specific types of provinces?

Walker Of Chaos i'm kinda wondering if there is a way you could implement different "caps" for infrastructure in different states

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:47 AM

Nah

The Taikun 17-Feb-21 08:48 AM

Urban, rural, etc

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:48 AM

It's either all or nothing

The Taikun 17-Feb-21 08:48 AM

could you cap based on that

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:48 AM

brb shooting pdx

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:48 AM

Its a define

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:48 AM

Most you could do is have different types affect movement speed

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:48 AM

You could however increase infrastructure costs through state modifiers

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:48 AM

That too, but it would be a pain to keep it updated

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:49 AM

yeah

we don't want to overwhelm the system with calculations

~~and the player~~

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:49 AM

infrastructure could impact stability?

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:49 AM

Nah

Not easily doable

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 08:49 AM

fair enough

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:50 AM

Also I just remembered what I was going to say

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:50 AM

Did my proposal for flexibility on the laws be considered?

Also good afternoon

I should eat lunch

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:50 AM

I think we should also use the opportunity to entirely review the Industrial/Electronics section of Research

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:50 AM

100%

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:50 AM

Give them actual effects so the player has a reason to do them

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:50 AM

They are currently absolutely terrible

Lamounier I think we should also use the opportunity to entirely review the Industrial/Electronics section of Research

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

Research in general

honestly

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

It's very pointless yeah.

80% of the countries have no use for their bonus

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

~~If I had my way I'd like to do a total rework of Research in general but that might be a bit too much~~

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

And the one that potentially could, doesn't really should

Walker Of Chaos Research in general

The Taikun 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

inb4 we were thinking doing a bespoke techtree for Guangdong buuuut no, no, no

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

If we can make econ be meaningful I wanna return to the "equipment research has heavy costs but there's other social research which is free"

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

Also what is our plans with laws I have a plan to make policy effectiveness actually good

The Taikun 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

too much work and too much gui

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:51 AM

I'd really like for there to be less Research options but for them to be more significant

No more "+5% Infantry Equipment Attack" researches

But actual useful stuff

OPAsian Also what is our plans with laws I have a plan to make policy effectiveness actually good

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:52 AM

policy effectivness seems decently well received already?

@Lamounier Fully agree

Walker Of Chaos policy effectivness seems decently well received already?

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:52 AM

What I wanna do is tie them into economics

Like fully tie in

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:52 AM

We have like ~900 Research options in total rn

Half of them are useless

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 08:52 AM

this isnt really related to TT o0r whatever but will we ever change the artillery and such portion of the research trees

cause its just alot to handle at once

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 08:52 AM

Hell, probably more than that

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:54 AM

Policy effectiveness would be dictated by how much budget you allocate to that specific slider. All policy effectiveness buffs should increase the policy effectiveness base 50% effectiveness is the advertised amount (the ones on the gui). 0% doubles debuffs and halves buffs, 100% doubles buffs and halves debuffs

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:54 AM

Honestly I'd want a research system much more focused on "platforms" like tank chasi, guns and the like. With choices of sticking to platforms that currently work and iterating on them or paying deeply and spending lots of time to make a new better one

OPAsian Policy effectiveness would be dictated by how much budget you allocate to that specific slider. All policy effectiveness buffs should increase the policy effectiveness base 50% effectiveness is the advertised amount (the ones on the gui). 0% doubles debuffs and halves buffs, 100% doubles buffs and halves debuffs

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:54 AM

Didn't @Fedacking make something like this already?

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:55 AM

You would have too then make a yearly budget where you allocate your budget

Walker Of Chaos Didn't @Fedacking make something like this already?

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:55 AM

He didnt make the budget really play into policy effectiveness, more so he just gave the player reasons to mess with the budgets

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:56 AM

my main concern with yearly budgets is overwhelming the player with things they need to do. So long as it can be done in a way where they don't have too rethink their whole budget year to year i'm mostly for it

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:56 AM

A goal in TT would be making bankruptcy both: 1: be able to happen 2: be avoidable for the player

Walker Of Chaos my main concern with yearly budgets is overwhelming the player with things they need to do. So long as it can be done in a way where they don't have too rethink their whole budget year to year i'm mostly for it

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:56 AM

We could simplify it

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 08:57 AM

I really need to do my Tester survey at some point soon

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 08:57 AM

It wouldnt instantly change policy effectiveness, it would go up and then crash down depending on the money allocated So no yearly budget, just some sliders

OPAsian He didnt make the budget really play into policy effectiveness, more so he just gave the player reasons to mess with the budgets

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 08:58 AM

I only made the tooltip

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:00 AM

oh yeah @Fedacking when you have time I'd really appreciate your take on the above systems. I know you aren't the biggest fan of an economy with a big mechanical role so I think your perspective would highlight a lot of things we others may have overlooked

OPAsian Policy effectiveness would be dictated by how much budget you allocate to that specific slider. All policy effectiveness buffs should increase the policy effectiveness base 50% effectiveness is the advertised amount (the ones on the gui). 0% doubles debuffs and halves buffs, 100% doubles buffs and halves debuffs

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:02 AM

I actually like that a lot

You could make laws instead of straight up upgrades

Different "build" aspects

You give flexibility to the player to tackle matters as less of big number go wee to

"Maybe I can reach LBJ Greater Society better if I set up like this, etc"

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 09:04 AM

If only pdx would transfer the ship modification interface to tanks or other equip as well

North China Unionist - 變性權利 If only pdx would transfer the ship modification interface to tanks or other equip as well

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:04 AM

Well the Soviet DLC will probably do the tank part

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 09:04 AM

urgh

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:04 AM

But thats at least half a year away

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 09:05 AM

But yeah more emphasis on civilian techs would be very useful

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:05 AM

My god la resistance is soon a year old

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 09:05 AM

And in that regard we should probably increase overall research slot amounts for each nation

Because let's face it 5 is not enough for cold war tech trees

Though I generally dislike how tech is handled in PDX games

But alas

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:07 AM

I’m a bit anti the total rework. Completely gutting and restructuring a vanilla mechanic makes the bar for new players a lot higher, and I’m not convinced it makes the game any more fun

North China Unionist - 變性權利 If only pdx would transfer the ship modification interface to tanks or other equip as well

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:08 AM

that will be awful to manage

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:09 AM

You could have the credit system be complementary to the building system

Instead of just removing the capacity to building

I just don't like removing player options, at all

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:09 AM

My biggest worry for TT in general is that it adds complexity and also makes TNO less accessible to vanilla players while not making gameplay more enjoyable

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:09 AM

yeah thats a issue i have aswell

jesusツ - UwU

that will be awful to manage

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 09:10 AM

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:10 AM

Like realism and complexity should not be goals in themselves

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:10 AM

We have promised to bundle TT with compregensive tutorials

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 09:10 AM

Is this the anguish the pdx devs go through when they think about tackling Victoria 3

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:11 AM

Yeah, but a player shouldn't also need to read a 10-12 page doc on how a system works. I just don't see the purpose here of removing a vanilla mechanic, when it can be used to complement it instead

Walker Of Chaos oh yeah @Fedacking when you have time I'd really appreciate your take on the above systems. I know you aren't the biggest fan of an economy with a big mechanical role so I think your perspective would highlight a lot of things we others may have overlooked

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:12 AM

I think we should either keep the Hoi4 construction or scrap it entirely. I don't think we should be splitting the components mills from civies. I think lamounier system is workable, though I worry about the mechanical complexity we'rintroducing for code and interfaces. I worry about the lag it will create. I don't know if the power system will be seen as a nice addition or a simple anti fun gate. Making the ai manage this in a sensible way will be a nightmare. In general I think it's much less risky to stay in the Hoi4 vein, though thats mainly cause I like it as a minigame with relationship between infrastructure construction speed and tradeoffs in wars betweeen civies and military factories. A proposal I made to Pacifica months ago and she liked was making that transferring states removes some factories. This would be fairly easy to do.

Fetti (Lil Break) Yeah, but a player shouldn't also need to read a 10-12 page doc on how a system works. I just don't see the purpose here of removing a vanilla mechanic, when it can be used to complement it instead

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:13 AM

Yeah “wall of text” is also not a sufficient tutorial

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:13 AM

Tbh if I have anything to say in this, TT first and foremost code and design focus should be "making the useless stuff useful". Nuclear reactors, having big army and etc is mostly useless in TNO. Removing those factors completely would be unnecessary, but both making it simpler and more meaningful to the game would make the players happy

2

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:13 AM

power system seems pointless IMO

Fedacking I think we should either keep the Hoi4 construction or scrap it entirely. I don't think we should be splitting the components mills from civies. I think lamounier system is workable, though I worry about the mechanical complexity we'rintroducing for code and interfaces. I worry about the lag it will create. I don't know if the power system will be seen as a nice addition or a simple anti fun gate. Making the ai manage this in a sensible way will be a nightmare. In general I think it's much less risky to stay in the Hoi4 vein, though thats mainly cause I like it as a minigame with relationship between infrastructure construction speed and tradeoffs in wars betweeen civies and military factories. A proposal I made to Pacifica months ago and she liked was making that transferring states removes some factories. This would be fairly easy to do.

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:14 AM

Doesn’t OWB have this? Devastation system which destroys buildings on state transfer

3

It’s served them well, and OWB is a way more dynamic game than TNO in terms of wars and risk of snowballing

scoodoop Tbh if I have anything to say in this, TT first and foremost code and design focus should be "making the useless stuff useful". Nuclear reactors, having big army and etc is mostly useless in TNO. Removing those factors completely would be unnecessary, but both making it simpler and more meaningful to the game would make the players happy

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:14 AM

I mean, the big army is for when you go to war

Flaxbeard Doesn’t OWB have this? Devastation system which destroys buildings on state transfer

Samurai 17-Feb-21 09:14 AM

They do

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:15 AM

OWB Mechanics would be a great way to give dynamism to the proxy wars across TNO

Like Iran, Indonesia, SAF and shit

Fetti (Lil Break) OWB Mechanics would be a great way to give dynamism to the proxy wars across TNO

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:15 AM

Which mechanics?

Fedacking I mean, the big army is for when you go to war

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:16 AM

For Russias yes, for major powers you can keep your military to bare minimum, which didn't work out in OTL Cold War (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:16 AM

Devastation System, for starters

North China Unionist - 變性權利 17-Feb-21 09:16 AM

Not too difficult to implement either

it's just an on_action, some checks for existing buildings I presume, and some randomness thrown in

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:17 AM

Secondly, also a token system, like caps, that could be used to buff your puppets

North China Unionist - 變性權利 it's just an on_action, some checks for existing buildings I presume, and some randomness thrown in

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:17 AM

on_annexation iirc

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:17 AM

Like, say example, buff the South Africa when you're playing the US

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:17 AM

Hmm, I don’t know, caps are just another form of mana

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:17 AM

^

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:17 AM

We already have pp and guns and unique kinds of mana for different country mechanics

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:18 AM

Could also be used to handle the CAR and the Protectorates, IMO

A BIG issue I have with players is them just not bothering with that

Besides RP purposes

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:18 AM

No need for a global system for that though IMO

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:18 AM

true

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:18 AM

Like Italy will have its empire management GUI in PW

scoodoop Tbh if I have anything to say in this, TT first and foremost code and design focus should be "making the useless stuff useful". Nuclear reactors, having big army and etc is mostly useless in TNO. Removing those factors completely would be unnecessary, but both making it simpler and more meaningful to the game would make the players happy

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:20 AM

Coming back to this point I think this needs to be the first priority before reworking e.g. factories, since factories build equipment which is useful for nothing as a country which doesn’t go to war

We have to actually give the economy a purpose before there’s a reason to adjust how it functions imo

scoodoop For Russias yes, for major powers you can keep your military to bare minimum, which didn't work out in OTL Cold War (edited)

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:21 AM

Irl big armies were due to the fear of war. Yeah, in tno we know it can't hppen

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:22 AM

Could we introduce consequences to failing to keep your army/navy/economy competitive? Whether that’s penalties during proxy wars, bad spirits, or even the risk of going to war and losing non core territory?

Countries abandoning your sphere?

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:22 AM

You could have something that demands you to keep an army/development to a certain extent depending on Defcon

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:22 AM

one of the motivating factors behind the tokens was to give the economy a purpose by tying it to productive capabilities.

Flaxbeard We have to actually give the economy a purpose before there’s a reason to adjust how it functions imo

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:22 AM

I was speaking about this and in the broader sense: every aspect of HOI4 gameplay should be reviewed on the subject if it fits TNO or not. Buildings, menus, mechanics, trade, economy etc. to actually cut down their functionality to not over-add functions

Walker Of Chaos one of the motivating factors behind the tokens was to give the economy a purpose by tying it to productive capabilities.

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:23 AM

But production has no purpose I guess is what I’m saying

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:23 AM

things like losing your sphere for bad econ is problematic though is what is the benefit of a sphere?

econ? that's worthless right now? war? if you're a major who has a sphere war is not something you worry about

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:23 AM

Map painting instinct

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:24 AM

Walker Of Chaos things like losing your sphere for bad econ is problematic though is what is the benefit of a sphere?

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:25 AM

When we talk about meaning, we should be taking into account what are the goals of the players. Rn the goal of the player (outside russia) is achieving paths in nations, where essentially the only truly meaningful modifier is political power gain (edited)

Fedacking Irl big armies were due to the fear of war. Yeah, in tno we know it can't hppen

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:25 AM

I remember the idea from the old days of TT development: the army could at the very least affect the diplomatic weight during crises

Not decide, but affect

scoodoop I remember the idea from the old days of TT development: the army could at the very least affect the diplomatic weight during crises

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:25 AM

Thats a good idea

It's kinda invisible to the player

Fedacking It's kinda invisible to the player

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:26 AM

That's where the cold war points come in

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:26 AM

We could make army sizes play into conferences and such + tension if possible

(edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:26 AM

It's what I said

OPAsian We could make army sizes play into conferences and such + tension if possible

(edited)

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:26 AM

The player could spam out 2 widths then, we need a different method

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:26 AM

Diplomatic weight like Vic 2 and Stellaris

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:26 AM

Losing sphered countries might not be the right consequence but it would at least feel bad to a player, I think part of what drives players is to do paths the “best” meaning achieving biggest faction, most territory etc

scoodoop The player could spam out 2 widths then, we need a different method

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

Nah you can easily make them based on manpower

Oveja Diplomatic weight like Vic 2 and Stellaris

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

Vic 2 is unironically a very good orienteer

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

Can we even check how big the army is

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

The more fielded manpower = bigger cost

scoodoop Vic 2 is unironically a very good orienteer

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

We're pretty much turning into Vic 3 with TT

3

OPAsian We could make army sizes play into conferences and such + tension if possible

(edited)

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

I like this but aren’t there too few of these to really matter?

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

= more diplomatic weight

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

Ultimately I don't think we can create a base system that gives every country a good reason to care about the economy. The best thing is to aim for a system that fits "most" use cases and then we'll need to rely on country unique mechanics for the other cases

Flaxbeard I like this but aren’t there too few of these to really matter?

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

We are planning to add more into the game Conferences that can happen outside of focus trees

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

one thing though if possible, is that i'd kinda wanna step up how many volunteer divisions are involved in each side of a proxy war

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:27 AM

Yeah, a good base is better than trying and failing at creating a perfect one

Each country can adapt its mechanics and gameplay around it

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

Like Salt Conferences and Sphere of Influence conferences

OPAsian The more fielded manpower = bigger cost

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

Actually — could the military tech be added to this

Like if you have guns 3 you have a higher modifier than if you throw stones and sticks at your opponent

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

Like I'm planning to do in Mexico

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

I don't really like the idea of reinventing a wheel and gutting core HoI Stacks for a system that could potential just cause even more lag.

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

the initial SAW diary talked about 20+ divisions from each side. And I honestly think that's a good idea here

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

Hm

Oveja We're pretty much turning into Vic 3 with TT

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

Paradox 2

scoodoop Actually — could the military tech be added to this

Like if you have guns 3 you have a higher modifier than if you throw stones and sticks at your opponent

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

Maybe? You can check for tech in PDXcode

Walker Of Chaos the initial SAW diary talked about 20+ divisions from each side. And I honestly think that's a good idea here

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:28 AM

Heres a issue with SAW germany can send troops to every RK so if you can send 20 each then you will have 60 germans against like 20 mericans

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

That IS a good idea, yeah. Albeit wouldn't that make the reichcomissariats weaker, since Germany can't send volunteers unless it got it's shit together?

Oveja Each country can adapt its mechanics and gameplay around it

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

We should make the system as easy as possible to integrate though. Expose one or two variables that people can check and use. Guidelines for what to do (adjust election results based on Econ success etc)

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

20 divisions only doesnt work without a comprehensive map rework of the SAW

OPAsian Maybe? You can check for tech in PDXcode

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

Each time a tech is completed the army weight is recalculated

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

Honestly we could limit how large templates are in TNO

jesusツ - UwU Heres a issue with SAW germany can send troops to every RK so if you can send 20 each then you will have 60 germans against like 20 mericans

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

restricting them to just one RK wouldn't be hard honestly

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

Like hard limit them to at max like 8-12 slots

Walker Of Chaos the initial SAW diary talked about 20+ divisions from each side. And I honestly think that's a good idea here

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

I worry this may take agency and fun away from the countries in the proxy wars directly. SAF is already at the mercy of the US a bit

Flaxbeard We should make the system as easy as possible to integrate though. Expose one or two variables that people can check and use. Guidelines for what to do (adjust election results based on Econ success etc)

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:29 AM

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, making a good base that lets every country adapt well

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

Shows how units in modern warfare are way more mobile and support heavy

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

And everyone can use the mechanics in their own unique way

OPAsian Like hard limit them to at max like 8-12 slots

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

Would be a big hit for Russian players, no?

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

the SAW needs a rework tbh i can barely stand doing it nowadays

scoodoop Would be a big hit for Russian players, no?

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

Nah because they would just make more divs

scoodoop I remember the idea from the old days of TT development: the army could at the very least affect the diplomatic weight during crises

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

rip america

2

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

@Flaxbeard I mean the solution to this we used for SAF is that if they are player controlled we event spawn divisions for them instead

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

Russia is a Div Pumping Machine

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:30 AM

40w are and always will be bad gameplay

Making invulnerable 10-4-4 tanks dont feel good

They are just funny

who? (break) rip america

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:31 AM

The USA could have the entire OFN diplo weight on its back, and considering the OFN nations are sovereign nations mostly, they'd have higher diplo weight

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:31 AM

Lock all division templates

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:31 AM

So it'd even out

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:31 AM

5

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

Research Division Templates

Poggers

Fetti (Lil Break) Research Division Templates

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

Could be something to this

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

Idk, I'm against locking divs to 12 slots. No purpose and adds on to confusion

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

No

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

one issue ive had before and in current TT is that getting a surplus for me is always difficult tbh since i dont know all the cool strats to make money

e3specially as russia

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

the fundamental issue we run into is that HOI4 is a shit template for what we want to do

3

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

Issue with that is that I don't like the idea that the player can only play on a set way we make

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

We could also halve the manpower per division, and then halve the stats

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

It should have flexibility on how to reach a goal

jesusツ - UwU one issue ive had before and in current TT is that getting a surplus for me is always difficult tbh since i dont know all the cool strats to make money

e3specially as russia

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:32 AM

We should have a detsiled ledger of expenses

jesusツ - UwU one issue ive had before and in current TT is that getting a surplus for me is always difficult tbh since i dont know all the cool strats to make money

e3specially as russia

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

russia shouldnt be supposed to be able to make money

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

Detail whats and why of the costs

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

it's in the shitter

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

The issue is that you cant control the deficit

1

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

Russia also shouldn't have 60 warlords

Oveja russia shouldnt be supposed to be able to make money

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

They should be able to spend very little

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

though maybe russia shouldn't have deficit

i mean debt

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

Which is why i proposed my policy effectiveness/budget overhaul

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

@Oveja honestly i want specific leaders to also affect diplo weight if we're adding it ie MCS should have a better diplo weight than Harrington

Fedacking They should be able to spend very little

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:33 AM

agreed

who? (break) @Oveja honestly i want specific leaders to also affect diplo weight if we're adding it ie MCS should have a better diplo weight than Harrington

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:34 AM

Yeah

Could give diplo weight bonuses to OFN allies

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 09:34 AM

because i am unbiased i want mcs to have +300 diplo weight

2

so i assume itll work like iberia's foreign crisis event chains

who? (break) because i am unbiased i want mcs to have +300 diplo weight

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:35 AM

>try to take ports >savescum >profit

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:35 AM

Russia should be imo pretty much a sandbox on how to do shit

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:35 AM

McGovern being a dove could have the USA have more diplo weight itself, and having more options for agreements with Germany and Japan

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:35 AM

Spends very little, flexibility in laws to a certain level, etc etc.

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:35 AM

While McNamara could boost the OFN itself

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:35 AM

I do like the idea of more conferences and having army size etc all gimp you if you fail to keep them competitive

we could make them more meaningful by affecting skeletoned nations or something

Fetti (Lil Break) Russia should be imo pretty much a sandbox on how to do shit

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:36 AM

Yeah

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 09:36 AM

Unironically Stellaris has better tools for what we want to do with HOI4 except for the tiny detail of it being a space game

Fetti (Lil Break) Spends very little, flexibility in laws to a certain level, etc etc.

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:36 AM

Could maybe work

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:36 AM

We can make the navy actually useful somehow

Global power projection

OPAsian We can make the navy actually useful somehow

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:36 AM

I don't even want to think about navies, it just hurts my brain

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:37 AM

Delete Navy

Walker Of Chaos Unironically Stellaris has better tools for what we want to do with HOI4 except for the tiny detail of it being a space game

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 09:37 AM

stellaris earth mod

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:37 AM

finally

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:37 AM

Navy tokens

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:37 AM

underground ancient empire

himmler was right all along

Walker Of Chaos Unironically Stellaris has better tools for what we want to do with HOI4 except for the tiny detail of it being a space game

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:37 AM

The New Order: Last Days of the Space Race

Featuring Hyperborea, the Annunaki, and God-Emperor Glenn

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:38 AM

I’m thankful for paradox giving us a great example of how not to design mechanics with the Mtg naval system

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:38 AM

smh i like the navy system

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:38 AM

they should never change tanks to naval system

OPAsian smh i like the navy system

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:38 AM

i dont like you

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:38 AM

Makes me able to make comically large ships

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:38 AM

MTG

More like

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 09:39 AM

Imo it can’t be a good system if >50% of the player base doesn’t use it and has no desire to learn it

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:39 AM

I will never win against the UOB in kaiserreich, like, ever.

Or

Just spam submarines

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:39 AM

If retrofitting navies worked more like stellaris I'd actually like the navy system

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:39 AM

just spam em

create 20 titanics per hour

OPAsian smh i like the navy system

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:39 AM

Banned

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:39 AM

I would wish retrofitting was cheaper

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:39 AM

It's just handling too much shit for the majority of the players who won't use them

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:40 AM

But what i like to do is making CVBGs that just annihilate everything

It’s so fun

Battlefrog 17-Feb-21 09:40 AM

#toolbox-theory more like #mtg-theory

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:40 AM

In TNO the navy can be used only for Goering and maybe Britain

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:40 AM

MTG for patch cycle 2

scoodoop In TNO the navy can be used only for Goering and maybe Britain

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:41 AM

having to make 12 separate naval OOBs for thatcher’s ship mechanic gave me an aneurysm

I havent seen a single person mention/use it yet

Lamounier - Both military and civilian factories are removed from the map entirely. Production Tokens would be granted based on State GDPs (thus allowing for dynamic increases/decreases of Tokens as territory is captured or lost). This would mean State GDPs would have to be displayed on the State GUI, which is something I wish to go in more detail later. - Additionally, Tokens could also be directly granted through effects or rewards. - Production Tokens would then be assigned through the Economy/Production/Construction screen (my idea was to have a pop up menu by the side of these tree) to either Construction (civs) or Military production (mils). In order to not force the player to have either type of factory running when they don't want to AND to introduce a limit on the possible militarization of the economy, a third, passive component would be added - Consumer Goods. - Consumer Goods would be a proper resource, much like Steel or Oil, produced nationally through Tokens assigned through it, and which can be sold or bought on the Market as usual. - Each country would have a Consumer Goods requirement, which would depend on several factors, like population size, poverty, GDP/capita, socdev, etc. - Lack of Consumer Goods would give several negative modifiers to the affected country, mostly affecting their specific stability/popularity mechanics. - These would function similarly to vanilla's strikes/mutiny modifiers. - Additionally, Consumer Goods should be generally expensive on the Market in order to promote players to make them instead of just buying them. - Higher Mobilization laws would decrease the Consumer Goods requirement. Certain ideologies (like Ultranationalism) would do the same as well.

The Xenophobic Fascist 17-Feb-21 09:41 AM

>power

OPAsian having to make 12 separate naval OOBs for thatcher’s ship mechanic gave me an aneurysm

Battlefrog 17-Feb-21 09:41 AM

remember... the only reason you had to do that is PDX wants the Players to spend $20...

2

OPAsian having to make 12 separate naval OOBs for thatcher’s ship mechanic gave me an aneurysm

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:42 AM

Proof: using the navy should give the player CTD

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:42 AM

Making separate nonmtg and mtg OOBs should have made me wanna quit hoi4 modding

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:42 AM

Having CTDs as integral parts of mechanics is the best way to go, obviously

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:42 AM

Fuck you paradox

scoodoop In TNO the navy can be used only for Goering and maybe Britain

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:42 AM

Whats your criticism with the navy system in mtg?

Fedacking Whats your criticism with the navy system in mtg?

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:43 AM

it exists

scoodoop In TNO the navy can be used only for Goering and maybe Britain

Battlefrog 17-Feb-21 09:43 AM

+ WW3 USA

and Japan but you have no fuel

2

Fetti (Lil Break) it exists

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:43 AM

Thanks you

Fedacking Whats your criticism with the navy system in mtg?

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:43 AM

I just want to move a boat from one place to another without too many shenanigans

Fedacking Whats your criticism with the navy system in mtg?

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:44 AM

It is super complicated and messy to use unless you are a filthy minmaxer like me

Battlefrog 17-Feb-21 09:44 AM

y'know in the far future we should add a mode where WW3 always happens but make it last longer than a regular WW3

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:44 AM

oh my god yes

OPAsian It is super complicated and messy to use unless you are a filthy minmaxer like me

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:44 AM

I just make a superheavy battleship with all super heavy cannons and destroyers

Ez

Battlefrog 17-Feb-21 09:45 AM

Sphere, OFN, Pakt gobble up all neutral counties so there's a GLOBAL war

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 09:45 AM

“War In Heaven” all 4 major factions DOW eachother

Battlefrog y'know in the far future we should add a mode where WW3 always happens but make it last longer than a regular WW3

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:45 AM

No nukes, no mechanics — pure war

scoodoop No nukes, no mechanics — pure war

who? (break) 17-Feb-21 09:45 AM

dread wins in 14 days

Battlefrog 17-Feb-21 09:45 AM

nah nukes would be used but once their faction only includes the superpower

so for germany to use nukes you'd have to knock out all of eastern europe, africa, and England

who? (break) dread wins in 14 days

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:46 AM

Make a script to determine whenever or not dread is playing and make him have -70% on all army stats

2

As punishing successful players is an excellent game design strategy

Battlefrog 17-Feb-21 09:47 AM

scoodoop Make a script to determine whenever or not dread is playing and make him have -70% on all army stats

The Xenophobic Fascist 17-Feb-21 09:48 AM

just fire speer_iran.10

3

The Xenophobic Fascist just fire speer_iran.10

scoodoop 17-Feb-21 09:49 AM

Not enough — he will find a way to finish WC before his computer is borked

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:49 AM

Btw is there a full list of subideologies anywhere?

I want to see where the PRI fits

Oveja Btw is there a full list of subideologies anywhere?

The Xenophobic Fascist 17-Feb-21 09:49 AM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uXZoci7lxCLcU9xLpOVTuOKfOYxe5QfXmpbL6OV8VcU/edit#gid=0

TNO Subideologies

Ideologies Authoritarian Democracy,Social Democracy Ideology Name,Description,Rationale/Users,Ideology Name,Description,Rationale/Users National Conservatism,Paternalist state-heavy conservative types strong on social conservatism and militarism.,Post YSK Japan, a good amount of Russia paths, In...

The Xenophobic Fascist https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uXZoci7lxCLcU9xLpOVTuOKfOYxe5QfXmpbL6OV8VcU/edit#gid=0

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:49 AM

Thanks

Oveja I want to see where the PRI fits

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 09:49 AM

Revolutionary Institucionalism

2

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:50 AM

Social Nationalism could work

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:50 AM

Soft left and bukharinism got name changes (edited)

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:50 AM

At least for both Mateos and Madrazo

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:50 AM

btw

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:51 AM

Not sure about the others

jesusツ - UwU Soft left and bukharinism got name changes (edited)

The Xenophobic Fascist 17-Feb-21 09:51 AM

what did bukharinism get changed to (edited)

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 09:51 AM

marxism-leninism

The Xenophobic Fascist 17-Feb-21 09:51 AM

damn

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 09:52 AM

RIP Bukharin

Oveja 17-Feb-21 09:58 AM

Can't really decide for Mexico

What I currently have in mind: - Social Nationalism (?): Mateos, Ordaz, del Rosal - Something AuthDem: Lozano, Madrazo - Neoliberalism: Mena - Something SocDem: Sierra - Something LibSoc: Paz (2nd Mexican Revolution) - Military Junta: del Rosal - Something Fascism: Gollaz - Something AuthSoc: Cabañas (edited)

Oveja Can't really decide for Mexico

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 10:18 AM

wrong chat?

Fillmore, Lord Goring wrong chat?

Some Guy 17-Feb-21 10:22 AM

TT is the update with sub-ideologies

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 10:22 AM

@Oveja fyi leaders don't need to have a subideology, they can still just use the base ideology too

Some Guy TT is the update with sub-ideologies

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 10:22 AM

Ah my bad then lol

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 10:24 AM

i feel like vagnars AB should have its own subideology

tbh

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 10:25 AM

how so?

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 10:26 AM

idk really but i think its some cool flavour considering what vagnars AB is if you ignore the german simping also yemmy has a subideology so why cant vagnar have one

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 10:32 AM

I disagree

There's nothing really that separates what Vagner is doing from standard Nazism

DocOverbuild3 17-Feb-21 10:37 AM

So I read up a little bit (edited)

I’m not going to comment directly on the economic system, because it’s outside the scope of my understanding and what I’m good at

I will however note that what is being proposed is fundamentally changing hoi4 as a game

Just, full stop

And the work to do that

And then implement it

And then go back and change half of it when you find out it doesn’t work (which has never not happened, and multiply that by 10 for a project of this scale)

And then do it all again

And then test it

And then integrate it into every nation

And then spend time balancing, which unfortunately we wouldn’t be able to avoid this time

And this is with taking nearly every advanced coder left on the team and keeping them on TT the entire time. (edited)

Which even that by itself is only like 10 people (edited)

My point is, and I think everyone realizes this but I’ll say it again

If you want an in depth and game changing Econ system

Patches are going to have to be slowed or stopped for a long ass time

So the trade off then is

Do you go with the simpler, dyno mod system with more added on and keep going in other places at a relatively steady pace (edited)

Or do you make Vic3 and shut down other areas of production, or worse yet, not do that and have it all grind to a halt

Obviously I have no say in the matter and I’m sure you all know this already, but I figure I would say it again because it’s so important

Oveja 17-Feb-21 10:49 AM

I agree with Doc in that we shouldn't go over the scope and add several more months and need for resources to TT, it's good we're redesigning but no need to go overboard, especially when we're in no position to do so

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 10:50 AM

I just think simplicity should be the term of the game. Before anything overly ambitious, we need to design something that the player should want to modify and play, not something he is strong armed because we're railroading it

1

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 10:56 AM

question all Subideologys will get icons yes?

Lamounier @Oveja fyi leaders don't need to have a subideology, they can still just use the base ideology too

Oveja 17-Feb-21 10:58 AM

I know, but subideologies are cool

Samurai 17-Feb-21 10:59 AM

So, with the new policy rework for TT, is it possible to temporarily improve a policies effectiveness?

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 11:00 AM

I think the proposal is being able to change some laws, depending on the ideology

DocOverbuild3 I’m not going to comment directly on the economic system, because it’s outside the scope of my understanding and what I’m good at

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 11:01 AM

Agree fully

Samurai 17-Feb-21 11:03 AM

But will it be possible to improve a policies effectiveness for a given time? Like say I want to improve a countries effectiveness for workplace safety or whatever it's called which gets removed after 90 days or something (kinda like a government sponsored program) but I don't want to outright create a new idea (includes hidden ones) to show that. (sorry for shite explanation I ain't a Greytide

) (edited)

DocOverbuild3 17-Feb-21 11:08 AM

Like I was for a slimmed down approach before all the bloodletting we’ve had

But now I honestly think it’s the only way forward to be frank

I don’t think the resources are there to even do a moderately intensive rework I’d you want to keep patches even sort of going

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 11:09 AM

I think a total economic rework would be great in an ideal world but I think it would also require a huge amount of work for each tag and would have a less drastic impact on the player experience than other options

I think the “Cold War” competition mechanics giving players a reason to invest in existing systems is a better use of our time (edited)

It’ll feel more impactful IMO

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 11:16 AM

@Walker Of Chaos @Lamounier I feel strongly that we scope carefully the amount of work. All of the production proposals require multiple guis, looks at all lf the state gdps and a crapton of buttons and interactions. This will take serious amount of time.

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 11:21 AM

Yes that’s things to consider (though state gdps are already a thing, that’s just a matter of making the information public). Fundamental issue is we need reasons to care about the economy.

While not bloating scope (unless we decide that’s necessary) and stuff that’s at least somewhat applicable for most playable countries in the mod.

~~which is why we’ll do my proposal and switch to Stellaris because HOI sucks~~

Walker Of Chaos Yes that’s things to consider (though state gdps are already a thing, that’s just a matter of making the information public). Fundamental issue is we need reasons to care about the economy.

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 11:23 AM

Can I try to add a smaller reason to care about the economy and test that with the testers, to see how it feels?

I have all of the code for the gdpc thing

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 11:24 AM

I mean sure, right now we’re just design and throwing ideas around to see if they have merit

If an idea is total garbage but starts some interesting discussion that’s still a win

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 11:25 AM

Whenever I have electricity again I'll try to make the push and ask the testers what do they think alongside their future tt tests

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 11:26 AM

Though like well still be discussing other ideas and stuff in the meantime

OPAsian 17-Feb-21 11:27 AM

I still believe my policy effectiveness overhaul to be necessary to connect Economy and Policy Effectiveness (edited)

Walker Of Chaos Though like well still be discussing other ideas and stuff in the meantime

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 11:30 AM

It's not a replacement just more data

Inactive 17-Feb-21 11:41 AM

I Think the Cold War mechanic is way more important to the feel and play of the game than the economic ones

3

Because else we face a Catch 22, being forced to eighter halt development to implement complex mechanics or release with a mechanic that would be seen as lackluster

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 11:46 AM

I’m not saying economics are more important than foreign policy. But I do think they’re closely related, we want meaningful economics to tie into cold war politics and spheres (so your faction consuming the map actually matters) and we want meaningful cold war mechanics to properly represent the central conflicts of tno. I merely opened with this econ stuff because we had previously discussed it and general consensus was very favorable towards it at the time

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 12:09 PM

The thing is we're still at least how I see, building a scope. Anything was better than what we had last time.

I'm not really criticizing the idea of the system. I just really don't see the benefits of uprooting fundamental mechanic system and applying to TNO. I don't know, maybe it's my impression but I simply don't see how a player experience is improved with the Token system compared to what is right now, currently.

The cold war mechanics are more important and I agree. But ultimately I don't see crippling parts of the game and railroading the player to be an improvement, we're just smashing the old system to rubble

the 17-Feb-21 12:18 PM

one big issue I see is that how tf would the AI use those mechanics

3

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 12:56 PM

so

i have a problem which ive had before as AB

i cannot build

anything even with max construction budget

so i just had to cheat in some civies to actually be able to build

Kyiv_Worker 17-Feb-21 01:07 PM

The superregional Russia experience

I think they're reworking it, so it's actually possible to build anything

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 01:10 PM

Yeah right now we're reworking to mitigate the absolute issue the AB and other tags have rn

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 01:11 PM

also someone seems to have forgotten about poverty in irkutsk

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 01:13 PM

For some reason a lot of russian tags had poverty disabled

Probably because of the poverty rework

jesusツ - UwU i cannot build

nexus #war crimes dev 17-Feb-21 01:54 PM

share the list of consumer good modifiers

hover over the consumer goods tab

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 01:55 PM

well i fixed it for myself by cheating in some civs so ill just go to novosib since its the same for all regionals not being able to build

and WRRF

jesusツ - UwU well i fixed it for myself by cheating in some civs so ill just go to novosib since its the same for all regionals not being able to build

nexus #war crimes dev 17-Feb-21 02:00 PM

30% CG sibplan is awful

For AI, but thats not TT related

60% use is the same as in master (default construction level)

I dont know enough about how TT handles consumer goods though.

nexus #war crimes dev I dont know enough about how TT handles consumer goods though.

Kyiv_Worker 17-Feb-21 02:42 PM

Does anyone?

Kyiv_Worker Does anyone?

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 02:45 PM

️

Kyiv_Worker 17-Feb-21 02:58 PM

Fair enough

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 03:14 PM

So wanted to clear up some things regarding the scope of this work and the changes we can make 1. We in the Dev team are committed to doing TT justice. This means giving it the time it needs. We have not publicly promised any release date and so are not bound by any of those constraints. While a relatively fast release is ideal if TT needs a few months it will get a few months. 1.1 The dev team is fully aware the above may significantly affect the other patches and are planning ways to minimize the impact even if it will still be felt. Fundamentally a large part of the current problems with TT stem from it not being given the proper attention it needed at first in favor of the patches. We are planning a combined After Midnight + No Expansion trees patch (with maybe some other things) to help tide over the community while work is done on TT. 2. This is the best opportunity for fundamental challenges we’re gonna get. Fundamentally the more content there is in the mod the more effort it will be too change any base system. While future changes are by no means impossible if we want to do it painlessly we’re gonna want to do it now. 3. No matter what the economy and foreign policy systems we create will not be perfect. Different countries of the mod will have significantly varied experiences that will mean certain systems work better or worse for them. A good example is the USA, a run of which is all about politics with little fighting vs Russia a constant armed struggle. Our goal should be the creation of a system that provides as solid an experience as possible for as many countries as possible. The outliers not served well by the system will have to be dealt with as special circumstances.

HOI4 is not a good platform for what we want to do, it was merely the least bad option. It is a game all about building up for one great global war that you then fight. TNO is all about not doing that. As a result there will always to be some extent be an awkward dissonance with the base game mechanics, which we can either solve creating our own interactions (which if constructed right can easily be taught to the AI) or having to adapt our own premise to fit HOI4. The concerns brought up earlier are very valid and will need to be factored into any decisions we make but I do think mechanical reworks to one extent or another will be crucial in allowing us to create a true Cold War experience in this shitty game. @Toolbox Theory Development

Walker Of Chaos So wanted to clear up some things regarding the scope of this work and the changes we can make 1. We in the Dev team are committed to doing TT justice. This means giving it the time it needs. We have not publicly promised any release date and so are not bound by any of those constraints. While a relatively fast release is ideal if TT needs a few months it will get a few months. 1.1 The dev team is fully aware the above may significantly affect the other patches and are planning ways to minimize the impact even if it will still be felt. Fundamentally a large part of the current problems with TT stem from it not being given the proper attention it needed at first in favor of the patches. We are planning a combined After Midnight + No Expansion trees patch (with maybe some other things) to help tide over the community while work is done on TT. 2. This is the best opportunity for fundamental challenges we’re gonna get. Fundamentally the more content there is in the mod the more effort it will be too change any base system. While future changes are by no means impossible if we want to do it painlessly we’re gonna want to do it now. 3. No matter what the economy and foreign policy systems we create will not be perfect. Different countries of the mod will have significantly varied experiences that will mean certain systems work better or worse for them. A good example is the USA, a run of which is all about politics with little fighting vs Russia a constant armed struggle. Our goal should be the creation of a system that provides as solid an experience as possible for as many countries as possible. The outliers not served well by the system will have to be dealt with as special circumstances.

Critical Existence Failure 17-Feb-21 03:16 PM

so can we prioritize TT + AM + no expansion trees branch before

patch work

or nah

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:16 PM

Already been doing that

Critical Existence Failure 17-Feb-21 03:16 PM

oh

I mean if it's going to be the base for everything

minus well do that first

Critical Existence Failure so can we prioritize TT + AM + no expansion trees branch before

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 03:17 PM

Pretty inevitably something like that’ll happen

Critical Existence Failure 17-Feb-21 03:17 PM

~~also I want more things to test faster~~

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:18 PM

AM Content is mostly finished, right now some rebalancing is in the works, different coring time, alleviating the effect of the bombing in West Russia and Siberia, tweaks to tags

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 03:18 PM

also AM would probs need to remove spirits from AM warlords that belong to warlords from game start (edited)

if theya re still around

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:19 PM

Can run those, and knock em out as they appear

Will we modify our roadmap to reflect that, or nah

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 03:20 PM

Probably

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:20 PM

AM will likely happen before TT, from what I've felt

Deliver that, some russia tweak and patches and it's a pretty good filler patch

In all seriousness, I did voice my complaints and points and I'm just glad it's listened. My fear overrall is that it won't be an enriching mechanic for the player

Kyiv_Worker 17-Feb-21 03:22 PM

Should there be an AM teaser of some kind to let out soon, or a total surprise?

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:22 PM

If that's being in consideration, it's all I ask

Last time AM was teased was that countryball so long ago

Kyiv_Worker 17-Feb-21 03:22 PM

Ah, got it

Critical Existence Failure 17-Feb-21 03:22 PM

maybe like the original russia leak

Walker Of Chaos So wanted to clear up some things regarding the scope of this work and the changes we can make 1. We in the Dev team are committed to doing TT justice. This means giving it the time it needs. We have not publicly promised any release date and so are not bound by any of those constraints. While a relatively fast release is ideal if TT needs a few months it will get a few months. 1.1 The dev team is fully aware the above may significantly affect the other patches and are planning ways to minimize the impact even if it will still be felt. Fundamentally a large part of the current problems with TT stem from it not being given the proper attention it needed at first in favor of the patches. We are planning a combined After Midnight + No Expansion trees patch (with maybe some other things) to help tide over the community while work is done on TT. 2. This is the best opportunity for fundamental challenges we’re gonna get. Fundamentally the more content there is in the mod the more effort it will be too change any base system. While future changes are by no means impossible if we want to do it painlessly we’re gonna want to do it now. 3. No matter what the economy and foreign policy systems we create will not be perfect. Different countries of the mod will have significantly varied experiences that will mean certain systems work better or worse for them. A good example is the USA, a run of which is all about politics with little fighting vs Russia a constant armed struggle. Our goal should be the creation of a system that provides as solid an experience as possible for as many countries as possible. The outliers not served well by the system will have to be dealt with as special circumstances.

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 03:22 PM

I have a problem with this "(which if constructed right can easily be taught to the AI)". It depends on how we do it a lot. The only way it's "easy" if it's the system is exceedingly simple or the AI just cheats

Critical Existence Failure 17-Feb-21 03:22 PM

so like

portrait and portrait bios

Kyiv_Worker 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

Maybe show that it's like a legit update in the works instead of a little meme?

uglidoll 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

if I can ask how do the economics of TT affect the story? will having a bad economy hurt your popularity as a president for example?

Kyiv_Worker Maybe show that it's like a legit update in the works instead of a little meme?

Kyiv_Worker 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

Just shooting ideas out there

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

Russia style leak for AM would just take away any suprise

uglidoll if I can ask how do the economics of TT affect the story? will having a bad economy hurt your popularity as a president for example?

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

Case by case, but generally that's the idea

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

that it could of given

Hippie Spiro Agnew 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

Nah no portrait and bio teasers since those are a big part of the patch itself

Fedacking I have a problem with this "(which if constructed right can easily be taught to the AI)". It depends on how we do it a lot. The only way it's "easy" if it's the system is exceedingly simple or the AI just cheats

Walker Of Chaos 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

@Lamounier can provide more details but they had some pretty solid ideas on how to this

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:23 PM

We can tease AM as a Taboritsky touch-up

Or just a Russia touch-up

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:24 PM

As I told Walker

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:24 PM

Christopher Walker

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:24 PM

There's only two areas that really need AI attention - the Market, and Token distribution

The Market is the bigger one of the two, but as we're planning it it's going to be essentially a carbon copy of Stellaris' Market

uglidoll 17-Feb-21 03:25 PM

is there any possibility of a patch releasing ahead of TT if it's delayed? EN doesn't need in depth economy for example

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:26 PM

Which means we can either look at Stellaris' market AI for inspiration or even steal it wholesale if its code is similar enough

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:26 PM

Finally

Zhdanov into stellaris

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:26 PM

And Token distribution is really not hard to do, it's only really going to be 2-3 variables, worst case we can just force some values for the AI to conform with

But other than that, there isn't really anything else that requires AI interactions

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 03:27 PM

so like is it gonna be the market from original TT plans?

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:27 PM

The Construction, Production, Research, etc. systems will all be staying the same and won't need new AI interactions

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 03:31 PM

So tokens will act as modifiers on on-map factory output then?

We're not axing construction for factories?

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:32 PM

No

Tokens are offmap factories

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 03:32 PM

oh, I see

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:32 PM

That's it

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 03:32 PM

so they add to production, can they do the opposite (limit production) too?

sorry I should really read the proposal

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:32 PM

We aren't completely rewriting the Production or Construction system

Flaxbeard so they add to production, can they do the opposite (limit production) too?

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:33 PM

We're essentially nixing state-based factories and replacing them all with offmaps (with those being determined by Tokens)

Which are in turn gained from your GDP

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 03:33 PM

Oh, I see, but then what does the construction system do?

Just infrastructure/forts?

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:34 PM

Mostly yeah, but I also intended on adding more useful buildings to it to justify using the system

Which is where things like Power Plants come from

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 03:34 PM

Interactions with socdev could be interesting too

Hospitals, universities etc

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:34 PM

Yep

The idea is for things like that to be buildings or state-specific econ interactions

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 03:34 PM

That would add some strategy beyond "spam shift click factories" which is usually my default

Lamounier The idea is for things like that to be buildings or state-specific econ interactions

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 03:37 PM

it's fairly easy to define new buildings afaik. is that true or am I misremembering? (edited)

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:38 PM

It is, the only issue is you can't do much with them just by themselves

Because, as usual, its pretty hardcoded

Lamounier Because, as usual, its pretty hardcoded

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 03:38 PM

we can count them in code

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:39 PM

Yeah ik

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 03:39 PM

I mean the power variable then should not be thaaaat hard. I think. I hope

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:39 PM

It's what I've been doing with Nuclear Silos/Reactors

Fedacking I mean the power variable then should not be thaaaat hard. I think. I hope

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:39 PM

Power is not a variable, its an actual resource

Same as Steel or Oil

Which can be done easily through buildings

Lamounier Power is not a variable, its an actual resource

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 03:39 PM

resource variable, what's a name

steel and oil is very different tho

oil you has the fuel thingy (edited)

that is ultra hardocded

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 03:40 PM

That's fuel, not oil

But you get the idea

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 03:40 PM

oil is such a pain to deal with

wait fuel

fuel

Fedacking 17-Feb-21 03:40 PM

yeah but like oil has a bunch of special properties due to the fuel thingy

Or am I misremebering?

the 17-Feb-21 03:41 PM

@Fedacking it's possible to change what resource is used to define the fuel stuff

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 03:42 PM

I wonder if we should just nix the terminology of factories if we're reworking them the way they are

and just call them tokens/units

since it's really a measure of the "production capacity" of your nation/economy based on a number of factors, not specifically the number of factories you have (edited)

and it might make clear to players coming from vanilla / old TNO that this is an overhaul and not just a tweak to vanilla production

I also think that players would be more receptive to a system that "feels" like its own new thing instead of like a bastardization of vanilla production, even though that's sort of what it is

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 06:19 PM

mockup of @Lamounier's suggestion, totally noncommittal just wanted a better idea of how it might look ingame

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 06:21 PM

Not exactly what I was intending on but that looks great

Oh you even changed the topbar

Nice

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 06:22 PM

I considered a popout bar but construction already had one so I thought it might look a bit odd

it's a bit bulky though

in the mockup

god I am also just now realizing how different the Construction and Production windows look from a UI design perspective and it's bothering me

(edited)

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 06:24 PM

i still have no idea whats going on

jesusツ - UwU i still have no idea whats going on

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 06:25 PM

tldr state factories are gone, you get offmaps based on your economy instead

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 06:25 PM

ah i see

jesusツ - UwU

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 06:25 PM

Lamounier's suggestion I think is just that you have "big production number" determined by GDP which you the player get to allocate between civ factories, mil factories, and consumer goods (which is a buff/debuff) And then power limits the big production number, offset by building power plants on Construction

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 06:25 PM

This was Calph's suggestion originally btw

3

2

I just iterated on it

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 06:26 PM

how would that work for russia is my question especially the harder factions like the AB

since they kinda have shitty economys the whole game from my expierence

Lamounier 17-Feb-21 06:27 PM

Tokens would still be able to be granted separately as bonuses

And since it's only one variable, this means that balancing is easier

Flaxbeard 17-Feb-21 06:30 PM

thinking about social policy buildings, a few which we could add, though not sure if there would be any need - Military Base: Increases army professionalism socdev over time and/or policy effectiveness for military supervision, training etc - Hospital: Increases healthcare policy effectiveness, monthly pop - Police station: Increases security policy effectiveness, reduces resistance in territory - University: Increases education policy effectiveness, academic base socdev - Prison: Increases penal system socdev

Just to give the player more (hopefully meaningful) choices in construction in addition to power buildings, silos and radar/fort/airbase etc.

I think one potential benefit of this economic rework would be that construction actually becomes an interesting mechanic and not something you set and forget ofc requires us to do it right, but I think it's possible

the 17-Feb-21 06:47 PM

tfw Aryan universities

the tfw Aryan universities

Critical Existence Failure 17-Feb-21 06:54 PM

you mean Deystch universities

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 07:11 PM

AB 100% Public Schools

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 07:34 PM

From.whst I've noticed when lookin at subideology icons Dixiecrat is really hard to distinguish Like yeah it's an eagle but imo it's hard to look at and know what's going on Especially compared to neocon ML and suxh

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 07:40 PM

show (edited)

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 07:43 PM

In bed rn but just brought it up since I just remember about it

Fetti (Lil Break) 17-Feb-21 07:44 PM

I feel either low increases by a tinier amount on the decisions or there should be a natural decay to effectiveness (edited)

I'm glad you had fun with juggling effectiveness on the decisions though

jesusツ - UwU 17-Feb-21 07:48 PM

Found a screen

Fillmore, Lord Goring 17-Feb-21 07:49 PM

idk I think it works (not saying there couldn't be a better version made or anything)

Flaxbeard thinking about social policy buildings, a few which we could add, though not sure if there would be any need - Military Base: Increases army professionalism socdev over time and/or policy effectiveness for military supervision, training etc - Hospital: Increases healthcare policy effectiveness, monthly pop - Police station: Increases security policy effectiveness, reduces resistance in territory - University: Increases education policy effectiveness, academic base socdev - Prison: Increases penal system socdev

Bamba 17-Feb-21 11:53 PM

Going to base my economy purely on Universities and Prisons as Zhadanov

2

jesusツ - UwU 18-Feb-21 06:02 AM

It's Zhdanov stoopid

jesusツ - UwU 18-Feb-21 09:06 AM

i got a question since AM is most likely gonna release before TT me thinks will the post collapse use subideologys like imperial cult an such or will they have just base ideologys first and then later with the Release of TT get the subideologies?

Fetti (Lil Break) 18-Feb-21 10:03 AM

Probably base ideologies first and later we retro-actively add the subideologies

Battlefrog 18-Feb-21 10:39 AM

teaser for the TT economy system

23

North China Unionist - 變性權利 18-Feb-21 10:45 AM

V-Mark

The Restroom User 18-Feb-21 11:43 AM

nineteen dollar reichsmark card-who want it?

Baron 19-Feb-21 09:19 AM

I love that we're literally reverting to Darkest Hour industrial capacity

Return to tradition

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:01 PM

@Toolbox Theory Development Alright so moving forward. It seems the token system is the way we'll go so I want us to start codework on it as soon as possible, this will include settling on a GUI design for it. Additionally it is high time we start talking about the most important component of TT, making the Cold War actually feel like a Cold War. The Dev team has been talking about different ways to achieve this and the following is a rough outline for our ideas -More proxy wars so the superpowers will fight each other in reality and loc. --Mainly focused in SEA and Africa ---Burma, Congo Crisis etc etc --Generic Reward system for victories ---Blocking your enemies and PP bonuses plus stuff like regime stability for Speer --Should have some dynamism so that not all proxy wars happen every game -A general system for having nations in your sphere of influence as well as the ability to launch coups --Primarily aimed at countries without content --Potential to escalate into proxy wars if the situation justifies it -A power projection system that shows on the maps which oceans the different super powers can access --Ties into the Cold War GUI and score --Also ties into proxy wars and coups, more power projection = more ability to do stuff with em Overall the goal with these systems is to provide a good solid foundation for international gameplay that is engaging but also easy to make content for without consuming an inordinate amount of time. We want to make these systems as modular as possible, both in what places can be fucked with but also what countries can engage in said fuckery. For TT we'll likely only have the Big 3 be able to do stuff but down the line in other patches Italy & others will also make use of it. Feel free to post any questions/comments/concerns/ideas you have. There is also this form for suggestions if you want to use that instead https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdI3G4HmH2fISY54BBf9iiZz-7qMMY86ESKTXHoLWoJtoH96w/viewform?usp=sf_link

Toolbox Theory Foreign Policy Suggestions

(Also in the near future we'll likely split TT chat in 2, one for econ and one for foreign policy but not right now)

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:02 PM

I made this as a mockup earlier, as a place we could at least start discussion (though I'm not super happy with it)

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:02 PM

Can't talk rn will read log and give my thoughts inna bit

Flaxbeard I made this as a mockup earlier, as a place we could at least start discussion (though I'm not super happy with it)

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:03 PM

Yeah I forgot to comment earlier but It's a really nice mockup

I'll likely want lots of help from you with the economy system

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:05 PM

@Walker Of Chaos from what i read i generally really like the idea of having the possibility to evolve some areas into proxy wars more "naturally" rather than just this is the SAW germany and USA fights same for ICW or iran etc makes the world feel more alive

jesusツ - UwU @Walker Of Chaos from what i read i generally really like the idea of having the possibility to evolve some areas into proxy wars more "naturally" rather than just this is the SAW germany and USA fights same for ICW or iran etc makes the world feel more alive

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:06 PM

Yeah. I want more proxy wars to be more dynamic and not guaranteed to happen. We'll see what the cruelties of actual development allow but I have high hopes for the proposed systems

Flaxbeard Click to see original message

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:06 PM

Would the player really need a standard production line with it?

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:06 PM

Post-collapse or decolonization Africa is a pretty open canvas for proxy wars, I think that could be really interesting and dynamic

1

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:07 PM

SAW and the other current proxy wars will likely still be guaranteed though

scoodoop Would the player really need a standard production line with it?

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:07 PM

it's not a production line it's just the same sort of interface, maybe that's reason to change it if it looks too similar though

2

Flaxbeard Post-collapse or decolonization Africa is a pretty open canvas for proxy wars, I think that could be really interesting and dynamic

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:07 PM

Yep, our current thoughts are that we'd mainly use Africa and some places in SEA for em

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:07 PM

I just think it's a nice visual way to allocate between the options, better than just +/- buttons

maybe sliders? dunno

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:07 PM

proxy wars would be pretty dynamic if devestation/normal collapse were to interact differntly with the superpowers (edited)

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:07 PM

@Walker Of Chaos Sir please add 303 more proxy wars so I can elect Yock in a year

the 20-Feb-21 02:07 PM

I mean I think production lines looks good enough

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:07 PM

The Yock Speedrun

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

@Flaxbeard My small brain doesn't understand the function of this GUI at the first glance

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

It's to assign Production Units to mils, civs, and consumer goods

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

also this won't matter for TT at all but I kinda want a decision for after you're done with your run and you got an epilogue screen that turns off nukes and has the superpowers declare on each other

who? (break) 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

more airplane hijackings please, a crisis of balancing giving into terrorist demands and busting them out would be cool

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

your economy determines the number of production units you get, and then you get to choose how much goes where

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

And production units are from?..

Ah

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

Just so the player can match action figures together

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

Ahhhh

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:08 PM

it's one of the pins @scoodoop

Flaxbeard it's one of the pins @scoodoop

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:09 PM

Yeah I see

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:09 PM

https://discord.com/channels/805758885595971605/805768932303831060/811621937037705216

scoodoop And production units are from?..

the 20-Feb-21 02:09 PM

token is what we are using to replace civs

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:09 PM

we better not call them token ingame that's my only ask

3

token sounds so dinky

who? (break) 20-Feb-21 02:09 PM

soros bucks

2

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:09 PM

@who? (break) (and everyone else) don't expect these proxcy wars to be as deep as the current ones though. This is more intended to be a generic system and not us handcrafting 8+ new conflicts

the token is what we are using to replace civs

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:09 PM

Now that I heard an explanation it seems like a good system

Walker Of Chaos @who? (break) (and everyone else) don't expect these proxcy wars to be as deep as the current ones though. This is more intended to be a generic system and not us handcrafting 8+ new conflicts

the 20-Feb-21 02:10 PM

but this still uses the volunteers mechanic?

the but this still uses the volunteers mechanic?

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:10 PM

Yes

who? (break) 20-Feb-21 02:11 PM

omw to send the helis to another proxy war

2

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:11 PM

actually @Walker Of Chaos would this make it possible for factions to expand more than they currently can?

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:11 PM

Meant "deep" as in trees and stuff

@jesusツ - UwU We'll likely mostly focus on economic spheres and denying faction access to your enemies but maybe to a lesser extent

who? (break) 20-Feb-21 02:13 PM

cant wait to invade the congo breakaways after the OFN leaves the region

the 20-Feb-21 02:13 PM

so the proxy war stuff is integrated with cold war GUI? (edited)

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:13 PM

yeah I think that makes sense, plus in otl africa at least it seems like a lot of the ideological adherence of groups faded after they got the guns and won the war

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:14 PM

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:14 PM

I'm down for the Africa proxy war system

You have something for the player to munch

who? (break) 20-Feb-21 02:14 PM

post reichstaat proxy wars

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:14 PM

While waiting the scripted wars

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 02:14 PM

smh we are crippling aircav

considering they sucked at anything that didnt consist of bonking insurgencies irl

the so the proxy war stuff is integrated with cold war GUI? (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:15 PM

That's what its looking like, naturally if you have your own ideas I'm very interested in em but we can most likely get good use out of this proposed design by @moyme https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/805768932303831060/810235192768856064/wip.png

Flaxbeard Click to see original message

Lamounier 20-Feb-21 02:15 PM

One thing I'd say is to have the option for the player to set up a percentage of production into a determined area instead of a specific value

As that would require less maintenance on their part

To not have to reopen the GUI every time the GDP grows or shrinks

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:15 PM

call this the "oh my gods please stop deleting your armies and navies" patch

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:15 PM

would Japan play a role in africa? trying to sweep in after colonial powers collapse? could we take an inspiration from the belt and road initiative as a model for eastern investment and backing, I'm not super familiar

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:16 PM

africa is ment to be a major playing field iirc

when it comes to japan

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:16 PM

@Flaxbeard Yes, @Western China Expert can talk more but we want to involve Japan

Lamounier To not have to reopen the GUI every time the GDP grows or shrinks

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:16 PM

True, but if it's like a production line system we can allow the player to overallocate like they can with mil factories (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:16 PM

I'm also hoping we can use this to make the anti-Huttig Cabal remnant more relevant as having it would be a good boost to power projection for Germany

Flaxbeard would Japan play a role in africa? trying to sweep in after colonial powers collapse? could we take an inspiration from the belt and road initiative as a model for eastern investment and backing, I'm not super familiar

moyme 20-Feb-21 02:17 PM

Current spitballing is Japan and Germany may have a proxy war in Madagascar

2

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:17 PM

god poor madagascar

who? (break) 20-Feb-21 02:17 PM

@Walker Of Chaos will this mean i can have all of central africa in American economic spheres

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 02:18 PM

Yeah we are taking the opportunity to rework the Madagascar War

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:18 PM

Are we still keeping Maurice

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 02:18 PM

no longer will there be a jewish faction, due to the holocaust never ending

Maurice will be kept I hope

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:18 PM

Me too

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:18 PM

Well, a lot of the African states would have reason to be wary of Germany after the Reichstaat, and they might have their impressions of the OFN tainted by the mandates and/or the OFN's failure to intervene more effectively in Africa. Japan might be able to present a less invasive form of economic imperialism (edited)

3

the 20-Feb-21 02:18 PM

what could work is just enabling to setting more PU than it's available, also a button to set priorities like in production (edited)

moyme 20-Feb-21 02:19 PM

No native African nation is gonna team up with Germany

That being said I would imagine white settler states would

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:19 PM

also legit people I very much want want your suggestions for improvements/you to tell my idea for X is stupid for reasons Y and Z

who? (break) 20-Feb-21 02:19 PM

ha ha stupid germans lose again

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:20 PM

Germany be like hmmm which rhodesia will i team up with today......

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:20 PM

I like the idea of making the system dynamic

-A general system for having nations in your sphere of influence as well as the ability to launch coups --Primarily aimed at countries without content --Potential to escalate into proxy wars if the situation justifies it

This is pretty interesting to me

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:20 PM

How feasible is it making dynamic?

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:21 PM

South America (install CSS :ovejathumbs:) is an entire continent without content that we could at least prod players to look at through a mechanic like this

the 20-Feb-21 02:21 PM

I mean to make dynamic we would need to find and implement leaders to all possible countries to be couped

Flaxbeard

-A general system for having nations in your sphere of influence as well as the ability to launch coups --Primarily aimed at countries without content --Potential to escalate into proxy wars if the situation justifies it

scoodoop 20-Feb-21 02:22 PM

>an ability to launch coups Is this an another time we are going to outdo a vanilla PDX mech

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Dynamic within bounds, not all countries but having a set of a dozen or so which can become power struggles and a few may become civil wars depending on the playthrough?

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Coup the entire of SA with Rhodesia

2

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:22 PM

it wouldn't be fully dynamic in that it could happen to any country

1

we'd have a predefined list of which countries could be targetted

you're not gonna start a proxy war in Karakalpakstan

1

Lamounier 20-Feb-21 02:22 PM

I once suggested adding in the SA leaders/natspitits which weren't added in the first release with ST

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:22 PM

need... more.... OFN... mandates.....

Lamounier 20-Feb-21 02:22 PM

This would be a better opportunity to do so

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:23 PM

I'm sure that Oveja wouldn't mind being asked to add in some SA content

and some certain ~~sleeper cell agents~~ team members would be happy to assist

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:23 PM

Oveja has been involved with this

i think this will be very fun to work on

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 02:26 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rc8taE-p-XLYwhu1ENTGMDlzx5WrRFnc8nAEHjGkwvc/edit?usp=sharing Also this is not related to Forpol, but it is a small write up on how I want to integrate policy effectiveness with budgetting It is an absolute disaster in explaination, so questions are welcome

Policy Effectiveness and budget

OPAsian’s plans on how to involve Policy Effectiveness with Budgeting More: ISSUE:Currently the allocation of budget does not influence the state of Social Development in your nation. This is terrible design-wise. Here are my proposed plansProposed Solution: Make Policy Effectiveness be at a “...

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:27 PM

policy effectivness needs some way to decline naturally currently as russia you can max out most of them in regional

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:27 PM

MEAN

RUSSIA

MACHINE

OPAsian https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rc8taE-p-XLYwhu1ENTGMDlzx5WrRFnc8nAEHjGkwvc/edit?usp=sharing Also this is not related to Forpol, but it is a small write up on how I want to integrate policy effectiveness with budgetting It is an absolute disaster in explaination, so questions are welcome

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 02:29 PM

Pinned a message.

Original message was deleted.

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 02:29 PM

Pinned a message.

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 02:34 PM

Will non-majors have the ability to intervene in a limited fashion in these proxy conflicts? Maybe like Iberia?

(for certain nations)

Flaxbeard Will non-majors have the ability to intervene in a limited fashion in these proxy conflicts? Maybe like Iberia?

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 02:34 PM

We want to make the mechanic for proxy wars as generalized as possible, so that we can port it over to more nations

i.e porting it to Italy for PW

We want to make the "8 Great Powers" be able to intervene in future, but in TT we are currently just planning for it to be the 3 big boys

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:35 PM

uou know

is it even possible to lower debt interest

rn

uglidoll 20-Feb-21 02:36 PM

if there are any plans for proxy war in Madagascar I've been doing research on Malagasy politics in the 1960s

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:36 PM

without focus

trees

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 02:36 PM

currently not, but i dont think modelling a global banking system is worth it we could make it be based on a sphere tho

so like if you join a sphere you get a 2-3% interest cut due to having a good central bank ofc limiting it to at least 1% interest

Flaxbeard Will non-majors have the ability to intervene in a limited fashion in these proxy conflicts? Maybe like Iberia?

Walker Of Chaos 20-Feb-21 02:37 PM

What OPAsian said (and I tried and failed to do in my writeup). For TT likely the only places that will be able to intervene is the big 3. Italy would have the capacity but 1. including them expands the scope of an already large patch and 2. Italy is getting reworked so it makes much more sense to add them to it in PW

3

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 02:43 PM

IBERIA NUMBER 1 THOUGH

Imo I do wanna effectiveness to be toned down but I do wanna keep the stupid fun it can get

jesusツ - UwU 20-Feb-21 02:48 PM

ye keep the sandboxy feel of russia but not to the extent it can be rn

imo

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 03:06 PM

issue I see is the efficiency lowering on the warlord spot where ya don't have a lot to raise it back up

We could cut the increase -33% across the board, or make the lowering really small or proportional to how much ya have?

My worry is calculations making the mod run even crappier

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 03:08 PM

It’s mostly a matter of how often we run them and how often we do the heavy lifting

If it’s just incrementing and decrementing each month or whatever it’s nbd (edited)

But yeah idk if policy effectiveness should tick down as much as they should stabilize but not at 100%?

OPAsian https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rc8taE-p-XLYwhu1ENTGMDlzx5WrRFnc8nAEHjGkwvc/edit?usp=sharing Also this is not related to Forpol, but it is a small write up on how I want to integrate policy effectiveness with budgetting It is an absolute disaster in explaination, so questions are welcome

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 03:11 PM

When you say +50% of equilibrium and -50% this means like 25 and 75 at starting situation or 0 and 100?

It makes sense for Russia to start low and end higher but maybe our bonuses are just too generous

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 03:21 PM

Issue is that the drawback being too strong and we just run back on the issue Russia was having before

the debuffs making the game downright unplayable at some moments

North China Unionist - 變性權利 20-Feb-21 03:21 PM

maybe we should tone down both in general

we have a lot of different modifiers, obviously some will have a higher weight than others, but overall we should keep in mind that they can and will add up quickly

Flaxbeard When you say +50% of equilibrium and -50% this means like 25 and 75 at starting situation or 0 and 100?

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 03:27 PM

0 and 100 Equilibrium should usually start at 50, can be adjusted for nationspecifics however (edited)

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 03:27 PM

I dunno that seems kinda swingy doesn’t it

If you can go all the way from 0 to 100 by funding at game start

Like shouldn’t you be confined to a more narrow range and then tree effects etc move that range

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 03:33 PM

We could always keep the system of limiting sliders that are in rn

so the limits at start would be like 75% to 150%, which would influence -25% to + 25%

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 03:40 PM

I don't wanna punish the player for gaming a region like Russia

I feel what isss viable, is maybe setting a progressive monthly check that reduces efficiency based on how much already is

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 03:43 PM

The risk I see with any sort of tick (beyond just making certain adjustments take a bit longer like OPAsian's doc) is that most tree, decision etc effects fire only once

any sort of tick is going to eventually overpower those effects

Flaxbeard The risk I see with any sort of tick (beyond just making certain adjustments take a bit longer like OPAsian's doc) is that most tree, decision etc effects fire only once

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 03:44 PM

Thats why we are reworking those effects to affect the equilibrium instead of changing the single-use variable

So a increase_low would increase the equilibrium with 1, and a increase_med would increase it with 3, and so on

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 03:45 PM

sure

I'm just saying I don't think we should have a "regression" mechanic

I don't think it would make much sense for policies to naturally decay in effectiveness anyway (edited)

Russia should just never be able to get to the point where they're able to get their equilibrium high enough to reach 100% with max funding (edited)

and effectiveness would take a big hit absorbing new territory

(which might be how it works already, I'm not sure, lmk if I'm not saying anything new here

) (edited)

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 03:48 PM

Equilibrium could be adjusted for nations, plus these limiters limit it for nations usually

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 03:50 PM

Yea for sure

all sounds ok to me

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 03:50 PM

also why is civ spending 2500 billion in that image

Flaxbeard 20-Feb-21 03:56 PM

executive travel expenditures

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 04:06 PM

Here's my counterpoint

I also think I shouldn't limit the potential for the players to get ridiculous numbers

OPAsian also why is civ spending 2500 billion in that image

Fedacking 20-Feb-21 04:07 PM

if it's china, its an expense from an idea

it hasn't been reduced

Fetti (Lil Break) 20-Feb-21 04:09 PM

Like, it was fun. I think Russia realistically shouldn't, but also should reward a player by keeping tabs with efficiency

Fedacking if it's china, its an expense from an idea

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 04:10 PM

thanks

Flaxbeard executive travel expenditures

Oveja 20-Feb-21 05:21 PM

PRI be like

3

OPAsian 20-Feb-21 05:37 PM

@Fedacking I think some of the programs using GDP per capita doesnt work too well in some nations, especially in case of China, that is running a 8 billion dollar deficit on start due to it How can we rectify this?

OPAsian @Fedacking I think some of the programs using GDP per capita doesnt work too well in some nations, especially in case of China, that is running a 8 billion dollar deficit on start due to it How can we rectify this?

the 20-Feb-21 05:39 PM

I'd say that spending should not count the debt number

OPAsian @Fedacking I think some of the programs using GDP per capita doesnt work too well in some nations, especially in case of China, that is running a 8 billion dollar deficit on start due to it How can we rectify this?

Fedacking 20-Feb-21 06:07 PM

Somethings wrong there

How much does japan take?

Also the 2 plans that are gdp based are not a problem here

Fedacking 20-Feb-21 06:19 PM

@OPAsian what's the law for healthcare in china?

Fedacking @OPAsian what's the law for healthcare in china?

OPAsian 21-Feb-21 04:12 AM

Private Health Care 40% Efficiency Japan takes 2.5B

who? (break) 21-Feb-21 10:36 AM

@OPAsian @Lamounier nobody in GCW has manpower in TT

OPAsian 21-Feb-21 10:37 AM

its because the GCW nations havent had their policy effectiveness set

Lamounier 21-Feb-21 10:39 AM

^

Neither does Germany

jesusツ - UwU 21-Feb-21 10:41 AM

Germany has like no integration

thats why it gets negative trillions fo debt

as bormann

who? (break) 21-Feb-21 11:02 AM

well time to tag to heydrich then

@Lamounier i dont even have laws lmao

Lamounier 21-Feb-21 11:05 AM

Yeah policy effectiveness isn't setup as well

Goth Asuka 21-Feb-21 12:02 PM

Was looking through the subideologies

Neocommunism says it comes from Berlinguer's PCI but Berlinguer instead has a clique in the PSI TNOTL

Walker Of Chaos 22-Feb-21 09:50 AM

@Toolbox Theory Development Here is the initial list of African proxy wars (provided by @AtomicFalco ) we are looking at including in TT. Once proper codework starts (which will be very soon) basic implementations of these will be amongst our first tasks. - The Congo Crisis : Basically any world power can get a side, Germany has the Leopoldville Abwehrfront, Japan can sway some tinpot dictator like Mobutu, the OFN has the Congolese Republic they can sway, and even Italy could try to have business-friendly regimes set in place. - The Angolan Civil War : OFN-supported UNITA vs Italian/Japenese supported MPLA - The Gazaland Civil War : Late game crisis, can happen if Samora Machel comes to power, and if he tries to get closer to Japan. The OFN can support Eduardo Mondlane for a nationalist socialist regime, or Uria Simango for a more moderate option (which leads to Mondlane rebelling anyway, paving the way for a three side civil war) - The West African Crisis : Can appear if the French-Cameroonian War devolves into a subcontinent-wide conflict. The OFN can support the French coalition, while Japan could find an interest in supporting Cameroon has a kind of "anti-colonialist alliance" against American influence on the continent Again not all of these will happen in every game and for the initial release of TT only the big 3 will get to do interventions. Italian involvement will wait until PW.

10

1

Once proper codework starts I will also be splitting this chat in 2 so econ and foreign policy talk won’t have to share the same space and conflict with one another all the time

Those are also not the only proxy wars, we will very likely have some more stuff in SEA as well, more details to come when I finish ~~interrogating~~interviewing the relevant people.

Oveja 22-Feb-21 09:53 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_XAPq1DAVc

Sweeper 1209

OUR JOURNEY TO VICTORY HAS BEGUN

Fight, my brothers!! Update: Holy smokes! Over 500 views! Thank you all!

2

Fetti (Lil Break) 22-Feb-21 10:17 AM

DEATH TO THE MPLA

Kyiv_Worker 22-Feb-21 10:51 AM

URRAAA

Fedacking 22-Feb-21 02:59 PM

@OPAsian found the problem with the admin costs

it had a base cost

OPAsian 22-Feb-21 03:00 PM

Bless you

Fedacking 22-Feb-21 03:00 PM

I transformed it into a pure gdp calculatiuon

still probably too big of a deficit

but it doesn't have taxes

27% spending of gdp is high, but comparable to england at the time

OPAsian 22-Feb-21 03:01 PM

Fedacking 22-Feb-21 03:01 PM

will push this + fixed state gdp (state_value) calculation

Fedacking will push this + fixed state gdp (state_value) calculation

Critical Existence Failure 22-Feb-21 03:30 PM

does this mean wales is now testable

or is that separate

Critical Existence Failure does this mean wales is now testable

Fedacking 22-Feb-21 03:46 PM

separate

Critical Existence Failure 22-Feb-21 03:46 PM

oh darn

Fedacking 22-Feb-21 03:46 PM

ask bamba when wales is playabnle

Critical Existence Failure 22-Feb-21 03:46 PM

think estgel is fixing it rn

Lamounier 22-Feb-21 06:18 PM

Ingame concept for the International Alignment/Influence system

Still pretty barebones atm

jesusツ - UwU 22-Feb-21 06:19 PM

how would this work

Lamounier 22-Feb-21 06:20 PM

Basically Vic2 influence system

Lamounier Ingame concept for the International Alignment/Influence system

the 22-Feb-21 06:24 PM

is that coded in?

Lamounier 22-Feb-21 06:24 PM

Yeah

It does nothing atm but it's in

North China Unionist - 變性權利 22-Feb-21 06:38 PM

could be cool for integrating into some existing mechanics, as well as providing some small generico effects

like relations improvement, trade opinion, that kinda deal

jesusツ - UwU 22-Feb-21 06:45 PM

I wonder how that can be integrated with Ural/Kazakh mechanic

Lamounier 22-Feb-21 06:47 PM

Ideally it would replace it wholly

The general concept is for it to be a general, consolidated and modular influence mechanic that can be used in many different situations (edited)

So instead of having a dozen different ones for different regions running around at the same time, we only have one

the 22-Feb-21 06:48 PM

so this works with other nations that aren't the big3?

Lamounier 22-Feb-21 06:50 PM

It's fully modular

You'd need to create new progressbars for every nation you want to use it with though, but I'm hoping that can be fixed via usage of shaders

Lamounier Ideally it would replace it wholly

Fedacking 22-Feb-21 06:57 PM

what about BFI?

I ask because you used italy for an example

Lamounier 22-Feb-21 06:57 PM

Probably, its still TBD

But like I said, the intention is we have all these "Battle for X/Race for X" mechanics consolidated into a general one

So we don't have to keep remaking them everytime we want to add another international influence competition towards another country

ofc this is just a general base, specifics for each country and how you would interact with them could differ

Lamounier You'd need to create new progressbars for every nation you want to use it with though, but I'm hoping that can be fixed via usage of shaders

Flaxbeard 22-Feb-21 07:02 PM

we'd need a predefined palette of colors but should be doable

Lamounier 22-Feb-21 07:03 PM

I was hoping for this ping

(edited)

@Flaxbeard My general idea was for it to take the map color of each country in order to make it more easily identifiable at first glance

jesusツ - UwU 22-Feb-21 07:04 PM

The GUI wizard has arrived

Flaxbeard 22-Feb-21 07:05 PM

man I really like how seamless it looks

if we can get all the tt content to look like it was supposed to be part of the UI I'll be happy

Well, one way we could do it is to have a progbar Asset for each country, but only one .dds file (edited)

the shader Asset would just combine the color and the black and white image (edited)

we could pretty easily programatically generate all of those from the map colors

and then use scripted loc to choose the correct Asset based on the country

the 22-Feb-21 07:14 PM

@Flaxbeard how would the country colors get combinated into a progressbar?

the @Flaxbeard how would the country colors get combinated into a progressbar?

Flaxbeard 22-Feb-21 07:24 PM

to be more specific I'd say we would have: - 3-4 progress bars in the .gui file, supporting up to 3-4 countries in an influence battle, same way we usually do N-way progress bars - One Asset for each country ingame in the .gfx file. Every asset would have an identical textureFile1, textureFile2 etc, the only thing that would be different is the color parameter - The shader takes the color parameter and uses it to fill the asset (so basically color rgb channels + asset alpha channel) - We assign the image = in our scripted GUI file for each of the 3-4 progress bars to the corresponding Asset based on a variable, using scripted loc (edited)

does that make sense?

Flaxbeard does that make sense?

the 22-Feb-21 07:34 PM

yeah I understand but this can only display 3 or 4 countries?

Flaxbeard 22-Feb-21 07:34 PM

well we could do more but at some point it would be crowded right

we wouldn't necessarily need to hard cap it if we did a dynamic list actually

100-way power struggle

I think we can have the system completely generic with an arbitrary number of participants and countries. Only part we'd have to repeat is the asset definitions but we can do that with a python script

the 22-Feb-21 07:37 PM

I used dynamic lists for canada bill progress bar but there's one issue with them basically you are limited by pixels so for example a bar where every pixel is of size 1 necessary have 100 of width, 2 > 200 and etc

Flaxbeard 22-Feb-21 07:37 PM

oh I meant use dynamic lists to layer the progress bars

Flaxbeard 22-Feb-21 07:50 PM

like this basically

Lamounier Probably, its still TBD

Fedacking 22-Feb-21 09:17 PM

who? (break) 22-Feb-21 09:25 PM

@Fedacking worldwide triangle

Flaxbeard Click to see original message

scoodoop 22-Feb-21 09:31 PM

We are reaching progress bar levels that shouldn't be possible

Fedacking

the 22-Feb-21 10:32 PM

it's easier and better than coping and pasting other mechanics

as a person who worked on the Race to Kazakhstan which is just a ctrl-c ctrl-v of the Ural mechanic

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 01:32 AM

@Lamounier

who? (break) 23-Feb-21 01:33 AM

ARRIBA IBERIA

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 01:38 AM

Didn't want to overwrite your code so it's on flax-gui-testing-zone branch

see Brazil for an example with many contenders

Plowix 23-Feb-21 01:49 AM

6 way progressbar...,,,.

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 02:10 AM

need...more...segments...

Hippie Spiro Agnew 23-Feb-21 02:12 AM

Flaxbeard Click to see original message

Bamba 23-Feb-21 02:39 AM

How far could you take it

Theoretically you could have a 100 way progress bar right

who? (break) 23-Feb-21 02:40 AM

do it

AtomicFalco 23-Feb-21 06:02 AM

Would we have something like MD, where a nation can have influence on itself to counter foreign influence ? Or is that mechanic only for foreign-power influence

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 06:03 AM

Right now it’ll likely only be for the big 3 (USA, Germany and Japan) to mess around with. Expansions so more nations can play would come down the line

AtomicFalco 23-Feb-21 06:33 AM

Alright

That's going to be perfect for the African mechanics I had planned

the it's easier and better than coping and pasting other mechanics

Fedacking 23-Feb-21 06:47 AM

The kovner is because I spent a long time on that and now its getting yeeted

Fedacking The kovner is because I spent a long time on that and now its getting yeeted

Fillmore, Lord Goring 23-Feb-21 07:21 AM

honestly that's an entirely fair reaction and no one begrduges you for it

we've all had our hard work removed at one point or another

North China Unionist - 變性權利 23-Feb-21 07:22 AM

^

Fillmore, Lord Goring honestly that's an entirely fair reaction and no one begrduges you for it

Fedacking 23-Feb-21 07:24 AM

Maybe I can still save it, because it has an interesting gameplay aspect

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 07:30 AM

BFI getting cut isn’t even confirmed at this point. Its just something that might happen if we end up making a kickass uber flexible system

Walker Of Chaos BFI getting cut isn’t even confirmed at this point. Its just something that might happen if we end up making a kickass uber flexible system

Fedacking 23-Feb-21 07:43 AM

I would argue that even with a kickass uber flexible system cutting all of the bfi Loc and flavour in the effects would be bad

Fedacking I would argue that even with a kickass uber flexible system cutting all of the bfi Loc and flavour in the effects would be bad

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 07:56 AM

The flavour, loc and effects would most (99% sure) likely not vanish (down the line maybe PW would lead to some changes here though). The context here would be more potentially using the underlying variables from such a mechanic instead of situation specific ones. So you could have things like different levels of investment and such but they'd affect the international alignment variables instead and then use those for determining things like what faction Italy ends up in. So more "instead of using the BFI pyramid to display alignment we can rely on a generalized system that the events and decisions impact" and not "we'll burn everything in the BFI files". Or something to that end, we're very much in hypothetical spaces rn (edited)

Walker Of Chaos The flavour, loc and effects would most (99% sure) likely not vanish (down the line maybe PW would lead to some changes here though). The context here would be more potentially using the underlying variables from such a mechanic instead of situation specific ones. So you could have things like different levels of investment and such but they'd affect the international alignment variables instead and then use those for determining things like what faction Italy ends up in. So more "instead of using the BFI pyramid to display alignment we can rely on a generalized system that the events and decisions impact" and not "we'll burn everything in the BFI files". Or something to that end, we're very much in hypothetical spaces rn (edited)

Fedacking 23-Feb-21 08:20 AM

so more a "graft bfi on top of a generalized display"?

Fedacking so more a "graft bfi on top of a generalized display"?

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 08:21 AM

Probably (if it this thing even happens)

Flaxbeard @Lamounier

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 08:26 AM

Feel free to push that into the TT branch

I don't care about my code being replaced with something better

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 09:45 AM

Seeing this makes me realize how utterly out of my depth I am sometimes

Really fun though, you guys do amazing work

Fetti (Lil Break) Seeing this makes me realize how utterly out of my depth I am sometimes

Fedacking 23-Feb-21 10:35 AM

we all bask in the glorious light of the flaxbeard

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:03 AM

@Toolbox Theory Development Alright couple of big announcements for everyone -This week we're gonna be starting actual codework on the new TT system which should be very fun. --As part of this I will shortly be splitting the chat in 2, 1 focused on economy and the other on foreign policy -The team will also have a "soft" split. To avoid merges and ensure a consistent workflow people will be specifically assigned to work on one specific component of TT. -The economy team will consist of @OPAsian @Lamounier @Flaxbeard @Fedacking @the and they will be tasked with doing the initial work on setting up the new economy mechanics -The rest of us will focus on the foreign policy component of TT. One of our first tasks will be doing skeleton implementations of the African proxy wars for testing purposes. --@AtomicFalco will be aiding us with this --Once the Asian proxies are planned out those will also get skeletons -In addition to this we'll also be setting up a generic reward/penalty system for winning/losing proxy wars -I will also be setting up a report sheet for TT this week. I won't have any big expectations for this week since work started relatively week but for the coming weeks this will be more and more important. -Let me know if there is anything that particularly interests you that you want to work on

7

5

Walker Of Chaos @Toolbox Theory Development Alright couple of big announcements for everyone -This week we're gonna be starting actual codework on the new TT system which should be very fun. --As part of this I will shortly be splitting the chat in 2, 1 focused on economy and the other on foreign policy -The team will also have a "soft" split. To avoid merges and ensure a consistent workflow people will be specifically assigned to work on one specific component of TT. -The economy team will consist of @OPAsian @Lamounier @Flaxbeard @Fedacking @the and they will be tasked with doing the initial work on setting up the new economy mechanics -The rest of us will focus on the foreign policy component of TT. One of our first tasks will be doing skeleton implementations of the African proxy wars for testing purposes. --@AtomicFalco will be aiding us with this --Once the Asian proxies are planned out those will also get skeletons -In addition to this we'll also be setting up a generic reward/penalty system for winning/losing proxy wars -I will also be setting up a report sheet for TT this week. I won't have any big expectations for this week since work started relatively week but for the coming weeks this will be more and more important. -Let me know if there is anything that particularly interests you that you want to work on

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:05 AM

Pinned a message.

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:05 AM

Law Effects and Proxy War, I trust to make economic fun to people that actually understand economy

Pls and thank

Hippie Spiro Agnew 23-Feb-21 11:06 AM

Line go up, sometimes line go down

North China Unionist - 變性權利 23-Feb-21 11:06 AM

hopefully

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:06 AM

i am blind i can't see lines

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:06 AM

Line go up = happy Line go down = sad

Hippie Spiro Agnew 23-Feb-21 11:06 AM

Line go up good, line go down bad

I understand ecomomics

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:07 AM

EPIC

EMBED

FAUIL

Hippie Spiro Agnew 23-Feb-21 11:07 AM

.jfif

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:07 AM

Really I wanna be in proxy wars just for the sole reason

To be the person to make a focus called Death to the MPLA

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

these proxy wars likely won't use foci

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

Will they use natspirits

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

no small focus trees Why live

Hippie Spiro Agnew 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

Propaganda event titled Death to the MPLA

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

Yeah the participants will defintively have natspirits

Hippie Spiro Agnew 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

https://tenor.com/view/mpla-death-to-the-mpla-black-ops2-bo2-savimbi-gif-19792376

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

Then I can still put that

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

(We're probably nuking the US indonesia tree)

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:09 AM

Yknow the focus trees the Iranian Splinters have?

North China Unionist - 變性權利 23-Feb-21 11:10 AM

let's also test out working with state modifiers

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:10 AM

What if we made them for the participating nations, but good

North China Unionist - 變性權利 let's also test out working with state modifiers

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:10 AM

Unironically yes

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:10 AM

I feel those are good, even if most people won't play them, it still is nice flavour

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:10 AM

i'm always a fan of state modifiers

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:10 AM

So that's me

let's go

I don't know what a state is so

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:10 AM

@Fetti (Lil Break) If you want you can be in charge of setting up the Angola skeleton

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:10 AM

but still

Walker Of Chaos @Fetti (Lil Break) If you want you can be in charge of setting up the Angola skeleton

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:11 AM

The country AND the splinter factions?

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:11 AM

Using Angola as a testing field for “How does the AI respond to state modifiers” would be amazing

Fetti (Lil Break) The country AND the splinter factions?

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:11 AM

Yeah

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:11 AM

We could then transplant that info for whenever we get to GAW and WRW2

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:11 AM

Deal let's go

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:11 AM

skeleton for now would mostly just be the civil war firing via a debug

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:11 AM

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:12 AM

and enabling the US and Japan to send volunteers

I believe we already have MPLA and UNITA tags

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:12 AM

God West African Hyperwar would be great

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:13 AM

Now

this is epic

scoodoop 23-Feb-21 11:15 AM

If I wasn't on two teams at the time I would ask to be in this team, the content you guys cook up is amazing

Walker Of Chaos and enabling the US and Japan to send volunteers

Inactive 23-Feb-21 11:17 AM

Who will take each side?

Original message was deleted.

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:17 AM

Pinned a message.

Inactive Who will take each side?

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:18 AM

Forgot to pin the earlier post but UNITA is OFN and MPLA is Japan

Inactive 23-Feb-21 11:18 AM

Oh based

How will the CAR/ Reichstat influence the War?

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:19 AM

Both will be dead by then

we could maybe drop in a debuff for the US in case of CAR

Inactive 23-Feb-21 11:20 AM

And If we had the mandates?

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:20 AM

this is for Angola so the Mandates would be gone

and if Angola mandate did its job right the war won't happen

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 11:21 AM

What about the FNLA?

Will they play a role

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:22 AM

@AtomicFalco can elaborate but I don't think they'll be a tag

AtomicFalco 23-Feb-21 11:31 AM

I hadn't planned to, because I don't feel like they would be relevant enough to be included in the main proxy war. The FNLA is planned to only appear late game, and very weak. While the OFN would support UNITA, and while Japan could have an interest in supporting the MPLA to halt the US growing influence over Africa, the FNLA doesn't really have a superpower behind them

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 11:34 AM

@DuoDex This is your team chat, @Walker Of Chaos will be your TL

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:34 AM

@DuoDex Heya, we just started codework so things are pretty chill here for the time being

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:34 AM

hewwo

AtomicFalco 23-Feb-21 11:35 AM

Hello

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:35 AM

So before I start the spiels how much did Lamounier tell you about TT?

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:36 AM

not much i saw a screenshot of the econ tab which was pretty

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:36 AM

Alright so a quick rundown of things

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 11:36 AM

smh I mentioned international diplo stuff

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:36 AM

TT is the big patch that's supposed to make the TNO cold war feel like an actual cold war

However due to some previous issues its kinda been in a major transition phase for the last few days

Currently we're just about to start actual codework on it

Lamounier smh I mentioned international diplo stuff

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:37 AM

i have degree in international relations with focus on political science and ipe

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:37 AM

The core idea right now is that TT has two dual focuses

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:37 AM

so opinions go zoom

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:37 AM

the first is making the economy actual matter which involves completely reworking how vanilla factories work

and instead basing factories off of state gdps

the second is meaningful foreign politics

which involves a Cold War GUI

more proxy wars

and an influence system

DuoDex i have degree in international relations with focus on political science and ipe

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 11:38 AM

what the fuck actual qualifications?

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:39 AM

I'd browse the pins at a later time for a more solid idea

but the tl;dr is Ultravisionary Patch Design

(except hopefully the part where the project fails and kills everyone)

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:40 AM

can't wait for TT to come to my house and personally kill me

the tno immersion strikes again

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:40 AM

You'll most likely work on us on the foreign policy component

but don't stress to much about your first week on the team

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:42 AM

@AtomicFalco Please check your dms I am begging

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:42 AM

influence system good proxy wars good

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:43 AM

feel free to ask me any questions

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:45 AM

i've been coding a kind of

gdp system on my own so far and i think the key variables for a reasonably complex yet not too

system are

GDP as C I G X M inflation & interest rates unemployment three sectors budget, debt, and interest tax es stonks global market

services go brrrr

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 11:46 AM

we've already cut like three/four of these

(edited)

North China Unionist - 變性權利 23-Feb-21 11:46 AM

the fourth econ rework

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:46 AM

that's pretty similar to some early economy designs actually

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:47 AM

what is the current system ~~so i can poke holes in it~~ yes i know my system is pretty

too but

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 11:47 AM

Unemployment/Three Sectors were briefly introduced some time ago but were cut due to scope concerns

Global Market was another thing that got cut, but its being reintroduced now

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 11:47 AM

See pins in #toolbox-theory-economy for the factories rework

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 11:47 AM

global market is to- wait, it is?

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:47 AM

unemployment is a key economic indicator not a societal problem

doooooooooo

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:47 AM

@DuoDex Current system is roughly this

So, my first and immediate take for fixing up the Econ System's issues is re-implementing the Industrial Production system that got shot down forever ago. E.g. - Remove State-Base Factories, Re-Focusing around State-GDP-Contribution - To fulfill the role of production, have the Production system utilize two concepts: - Productive Capacity - Representative of the overall possible production - Drawn from some calculation of Econ Vars - Exact details aren't as important as that it happens - Productive Tokens - Tokens are, in game terms, the individual factories given to the player for this or that. Tokens fundamentally divide Productive Capacity equally, and the player can draw more or less to serve their particular need Benefits: - Way easier to balance, and gives a good solution for areas impossible to balance like Russian Warlords - Strictly ties the Econ System to very obvious in-game effects - The current Production & Construction systems are kinda just hanging out and are some of the best examples of how TNO is a mod for a different game kinda just on HOI4. The systems just don't work with TNO as-is, and this change is a step forward to fixing that. - Beyond strictly Productive Capacity & Productive Tokens, this system is pretty much already put together, State-based GDP is already kept & calculated (though it's calculation will need to change) and the Econ System would need minor revision to handle this. It's a cheap change. Problems: - W/o some thought, it'd essentially gut construction - Buuut tbqh I personally don't care, Construction simply isn't used enough to make this concern a big one. - Further, I think there are a few smart solutions for this - It may drastically change balance, and require us to re-balance a lot of stuff going forward.

The Xenophobic Fascist global market is to- wait, it is?

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 11:48 AM

Yeah

Lamounier Yeah

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 11:48 AM

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 11:48 AM

I have a pin somewhere explaining how the code for it would work

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 11:48 AM

Most of the existing econ work was making everything more visible to the player (hence the GUI leak), adding budgetary control, and reworking the social policy system to integrate it more closely with the economy

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 11:48 AM

But in essence it is a full replacement for the trading system

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:49 AM

so the biggest problem I have with that from an econ POV is that it seems very heavily focused on the primary and secondary sectors while ignoring the tertiary (and the tertiary is, uh, kinda important)

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 11:52 AM

the what now

North China Unionist - 變性權利 23-Feb-21 11:52 AM

services

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:52 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_sector_of_the_economy

Tertiary sector of the economy

The tertiary sector of the economy, generally known as the service sector, is the third of the three economic sectors of the three-sector theory. The others are the secondary sector (approximately the same as manufacturing), and the primary sector (raw materials). The service sector consists of the production of services instead of end products....

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 11:53 AM

please I only take econ10

AtomicFalco 23-Feb-21 11:54 AM

Primary is Agriculture and basic material production, Secondary is material transformation, and Tertiary is services

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:54 AM

>tfw econ can get away without taking political economy classes >tfw polit econ can get away without taking hard math classes i smell a new discipline

but anyways, "productive capacity" doesn't seem like it has much room for growth in the service sector

jesusツ - UwU 23-Feb-21 11:55 AM

this was the original econ beofre TT got scoped https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/743601814460694592/746099947920818206/econgui.png

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:56 AM

>tfw no inflation

4

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 11:56 AM

We should also keep in mind for any discussion that we should not increase complexity for realism’s sake unless it will have a positive gameplay effect

2

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:56 AM

i like the expenditures bit

that's a cool way to do it

Flaxbeard We should also keep in mind for any discussion that we should not increase complexity for realism’s sake unless it will have a positive gameplay effect

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:57 AM

this is one of the primary reasons inflation was not considered. Inflation is realistic and could be good but it'd be too complex for the amount of benefits gained

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 11:57 AM

The more complex an economic system the more intractable it becomes and the harder it is for the average player to control and figure out how to achieve desired outcomes

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:57 AM

The issue with adding to the economy scope is that you need to keep in the other person on the screen, yeah.

Your usual TNO player doesn't understand how economics work

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 11:58 AM

Because most Hoi players do not have economics degrees

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:58 AM

the current econ was chosen as a balance between meaningful economy and too complex economy

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 11:58 AM

So while engaging, needs to be functional. Otherwise it's just a coder flex

jesusツ - UwU 23-Feb-21 11:58 AM

and the current economy ended up being old economy + with some graphs and sliders

2

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:58 AM

inflation doesn't need to be that complex, just a dynamic modifier imo

jesusツ - UwU and the current economy ended up being old economy + with some graphs and sliders

Walker Of Chaos 23-Feb-21 11:58 AM

with current econ i meant production tokens

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 11:58 AM

the way that EU4 does inflation is actually not truly awful IMO

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 11:59 AM

I do think the TT Econ GUI was a big help in demystifying the current system

jesusツ - UwU 23-Feb-21 11:59 AM

ah i was talking about current Econ by the one currently ingame

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 12:00 PM

i do think that having a transparent modifier for how interest on debt is calculated would be good, or at least a tooltip that explains how it can be affected

who's the world reserve currency ~~or is it still gold~~

jesusツ - UwU 23-Feb-21 12:00 PM

all the tooltips

jesusツ - UwU this was the original econ beofre TT got scoped https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/743601814460694592/746099947920818206/econgui.png

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 12:00 PM

this was the original one

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/743601814460694592/746048272816406548/econgui.png

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 12:01 PM

Debt is something I wish to expand upon in the future because it serves no gameplay purpose rn

It's literally just a number and that's it

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 12:01 PM

GDPtodenbtratio zoooooom

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 12:01 PM

Debt is only relevant if the country has mechanics relating to it

I still stand a nat spirit at least if the player is too much into debt would help your pleb to avoid it

But I think that's in the works? Not sure

Flaxbeard 23-Feb-21 12:03 PM

Sovereign credit rating mechanic when

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 12:04 PM

this is kinda why inflation and forex reserves are important

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 12:04 PM

How would that translate mechanically, in the game?

Flaxbeard Sovereign credit rating mechanic when

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 12:05 PM

International Banking Systems attached to Spheres

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 12:05 PM

THE GODDAMN SPHERE GETS AWAY WITH IT AGAIN

oh wait spheres

nvm

North China Unionist - 變性權利 23-Feb-21 12:05 PM

oh god economic spheres

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 12:06 PM

member when we had purchasing power

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 12:06 PM

OPAsian 23-Feb-21 12:06 PM

I unironically believe International Banking Systems and Credit Rates would do wonders for the National Interest mechanic

OPAsian I unironically believe International Banking Systems and Credit Rates would do wonders for the National Interest mechanic

DuoDex 23-Feb-21 12:06 PM

YES

pog

OPAsian member when we had purchasing power

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 12:08 PM

home...

jesusツ - UwU 23-Feb-21 12:08 PM

damn this really fits the rest of the ui

2

i forgot this was added

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 12:08 PM

Actually one thing I wanna ask

Is it possible to hide parts of the actions ont he menu?

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 12:09 PM

is there a way to-yeah

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 12:09 PM

No

I tried it already

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 12:09 PM

yeah thought so

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 12:09 PM

You can add more actions but you can't hide or remove the existing ones

jesusツ - UwU 23-Feb-21 12:09 PM

oh cool the balkan nations also have it

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 12:09 PM

Can you cover it at least?

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 12:09 PM

Nah, its a gridbox

The options change depending on the selected country

So a cover wouldn't fit in always

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 12:10 PM

goddamnit paradox

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 12:10 PM

Depressing, but oh well

jesusツ - UwU 23-Feb-21 12:11 PM

already noticed a small issues it goes above the scrollbar for ideas

Fetti (Lil Break) 23-Feb-21 12:11 PM

literaly

unplayabl

Lamounier 23-Feb-21 12:11 PM

Yeah I know that

It's most likely not fixable due to the way pdx handles file loading

12

The Xenophobic Fascist 23-Feb-21 12:12 PM

3 million dollar company

Critical Existence Failure 23-Feb-21 06:09 PM

@Fedacking you should really add tooltips to the econ GUI saying that some spending increases socdev

like for science and admin expedenitures

it doensn't tell you that it increases those socdev monthly

Critical Existence Failure @Fedacking you should really add tooltips to the econ GUI saying that some spending increases socdev

Fedacking 23-Feb-21 06:11 PM

Wait, it does

Well

Time to improve the tooltips

Critical Existence Failure 23-Feb-21 06:11 PM

it doesn't

like this affects research facilities socdev

it doesn't tell you that

Critical Existence Failure it doesn't

Fedacking 23-Feb-21 06:11 PM

I mean that it improves socdev, I didn't know

Critical Existence Failure 23-Feb-21 06:11 PM

oh

Fedacking 23-Feb-21 06:11 PM

jesusツ - UwU 24-Feb-21 07:12 AM

i was wondering since the updated cold war GUI will represent borders of the major factions i think? would it also represent things like the UN/KDN when they form ik this is a dumb question but im wondering (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 24-Feb-21 07:13 AM

Hadn’t really considered it. My inclination is that it won’t though since the UN doesn’t happen in TNO1 and the KdN is founded literally at the end of Speer content

Walker Of Chaos 24-Feb-21 09:44 AM

@North China Unionist - 變性權利 @DocOverbuild3 @Oveja Any of you interested in helping set up some proxy wars?

DocOverbuild3 24-Feb-21 09:49 AM

On break for another week and a half, apologies

Walker Of Chaos @North China Unionist - 變性權利 @DocOverbuild3 @Oveja Any of you interested in helping set up some proxy wars?

Oveja 24-Feb-21 10:13 AM

Sure thing, what do you have in mind

DocOverbuild3 On break for another week and a half, apologies

Walker Of Chaos 24-Feb-21 10:15 AM

no worries

Oveja Sure thing, what do you have in mind

Walker Of Chaos 24-Feb-21 10:17 AM

Of the remaining African proxies (Congo crisis, Gazaland, West Africa) is there any in particular you’d prefer to do some initial prep work on? Prep work in this case setting up a debug event that triggers the proxy wars and triggers allowing each side to send volunteers to the respective factionw

Oveja 24-Feb-21 10:17 AM

Oh sure thing, I can do whatever, maybe all 3 if you need it, setting up the debugs is not a big deal

OPAsian 24-Feb-21 10:18 AM

Walker Of Chaos 24-Feb-21 10:18 AM

That’d be appreciated, get in touch with Atomic for exact details

Oveja 24-Feb-21 10:18 AM

Which tags specifically are the ones that-

Ah aight

OPAsian 24-Feb-21 10:18 AM

Africa... South... Cultural Springs... Warm Southern Springs...

Oveja 24-Feb-21 10:19 AM

@AtomicFalco Hey I'll be working on setting up the proxies for Congo crisis, Gazaland, and West Africa, which tags in specific should I set up the debugs for?

OPAsian Africa... South... Cultural Springs... Warm Southern Springs...

Oveja 24-Feb-21 10:19 AM

CSS has the Burundi development role.........

jesusツ - UwU 24-Feb-21 10:37 AM

free france skeleton content....

Walker Of Chaos @North China Unionist - 變性權利 @DocOverbuild3 @Oveja Any of you interested in helping set up some proxy wars?

North China Unionist - 變性權利 24-Feb-21 10:46 AM

Busy for another week with exams, then available at limited capacity

But I'm in

Oveja @AtomicFalco Hey I'll be working on setting up the proxies for Congo crisis, Gazaland, and West Africa, which tags in specific should I set up the debugs for?

AtomicFalco 24-Feb-21 10:47 AM

Alright, I will put on paper what skeletonizing these conflicts entails, so it will be easier to setup the tags and how exactly they are supposed to appear. But basically for now, you can already use for the Congo Crisis the already existing code for it. It should be somewhere in the African Spring event file

AtomicFalco Alright, I will put on paper what skeletonizing these conflicts entails, so it will be easier to setup the tags and how exactly they are supposed to appear. But basically for now, you can already use for the Congo Crisis the already existing code for it. It should be somewhere in the African Spring event file

Oveja 24-Feb-21 10:48 AM

Alright I'll be waiting for the document and begin tampering with the Congo Crisis for the time being

Kyiv_Worker 24-Feb-21 11:04 AM

Have new response trees for America to deal with the new African proxies been considered, or has that yet to be pinned down?

Fetti (Lil Break) 24-Feb-21 11:04 AM

@AtomicFalco Would also appreciate being directed the paper

Kyiv_Worker Have new response trees for America to deal with the new African proxies been considered, or has that yet to be pinned down?

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 11:11 AM

Oh yeah trees would be interesting

I do wonder what the best way to handle it would be since each probably wouldn’t have its own tree

But maybe a generic African wars tree with one or two for each conflict?

Kyiv_Worker Have new response trees for America to deal with the new African proxies been considered, or has that yet to be pinned down?

The Xenophobic Fascist 24-Feb-21 11:13 AM

https://discord.com/channels/805758885595971605/805768932303831060/813834837819260988

Lamounier 24-Feb-21 11:15 AM

^

Too much work + would fuck over with timing

And we don't really need trees for proxies anyway

Better to use trees for domestic content primarily

Kyiv_Worker 24-Feb-21 11:18 AM

Shame

Kyiv_Worker Have new response trees for America to deal with the new African proxies been considered, or has that yet to be pinned down?

Bamba 24-Feb-21 11:50 AM

imo Response trees are really bad

Much better handeled through a Mechanic

Kyiv_Worker 24-Feb-21 11:51 AM

Yeah, though there's still to be a proper introduction to the situation, one way or another, tree or not

Bamba imo Response trees are really bad

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 01:23 PM

I like response trees

Flaxbeard I like response trees

Metal Gear Kraken 24-Feb-21 01:23 PM

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 01:23 PM

I think I just like trees in general

The art and descriptions are nic e

OPAsian 24-Feb-21 01:28 PM

imo trees are a bit too much Decision categories tho should do the job

They can also have cool art and pictures

Oveja 24-Feb-21 01:31 PM

An unique GUI for each proxy war

OPAsian 24-Feb-21 01:32 PM

a decision category with a nice picture can have as much an impact

OPAsian a decision category with a nice picture can have as much an impact

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 01:51 PM

what about decisions with loc

Critical Existence Failure what about decisions with loc

OPAsian 24-Feb-21 01:52 PM

what about a decision with loc, that triggers an event with loc (edited)

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 01:53 PM

HMMMMMMMMMM

that's some 4d chess shit right there

or wait you arent going far enough

what if that event with loc

triggers a scripted gui...

with loc

OPAsian 24-Feb-21 01:54 PM

bro...

OPAsian Click to see original message

Oveja 24-Feb-21 02:00 PM

Very very nice, would be better if the text lined up with the image but that's just me nitpicking

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 02:03 PM

also seems like a lot of text imo

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 02:09 PM

@Fedacking oh yeah did you get to improving those econ tooltips or nah?

Critical Existence Failure @Fedacking oh yeah did you get to improving those econ tooltips or nah?

Fedacking 24-Feb-21 02:15 PM

nah

maybe on the weekend when I have more time, instead of still removing time from my work

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 02:15 PM

ah, alright

Fetti (Lil Break) 24-Feb-21 02:47 PM

I like trees

I'm a simple person, I feel trees are development of history

But thaaat's me

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 02:55 PM

I think it's that trees have a sense of progression that I like them

decision categories are nice

but you just have a set of infinitely repeatable options without much flavor

(in most cases)

Lamounier 24-Feb-21 02:59 PM

If only we could make it so you could take domestic and foreign focuses at the same time

But alas

Lamounier But alas

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 03:00 PM

~~multi-focus drifting~~

OPAsian 24-Feb-21 03:01 PM

what if... we implemented senny's double focus plan for Scotland in the UK to Superpowers

(edited)

which involved using those old ass pre focus-tree focus that Paradox showed off (edited)

OPAsian which involved using those old ass pre focus-tree focus that Paradox showed off (edited)

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 03:01 PM

wait what

we could implement a quasi-focus tree system in a decision gui or something

"plan trees"

5

Flaxbeard we could implement a quasi-focus tree system in a decision gui or something

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 03:05 PM

yunno, you could make a new tab for that

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 03:06 PM

we would be more limited in what we could do of course

like no zoom/pan

but war trees are usually not that big

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 03:06 PM

oh

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 03:06 PM

wait actually

maybe you can add zoom/pan

with draggable = yes in a clipping = yes parent container

idk if that works

Lamounier If only we could make it so you could take domestic and foreign focuses at the same time

Walker Of Chaos 24-Feb-21 03:07 PM

I’ve tinkered with a system for doing this. Problem is I can’t figure out any solutions that wouldn’t drive the coder insane

Hypothetically we have some GUI’s (like the Burgundy Investiagtion one) that could be repurposed into focus trees lite. Then you create scripted effects that replicate the results of the foci you wanna duplicate (or just the normal focus effects if you only want certain foci to be do able with this system) and fire them after x days have passed.

It’d just be mind numbingly boring to implement and extremely error prone and all in all not be worth the effort

Lamounier 24-Feb-21 03:20 PM

Yeah, it's simply too hard to implement something like that from our end

Flaxbeard we could implement a quasi-focus tree system in a decision gui or something

the 24-Feb-21 03:37 PM

there was one mod which did it but

in that mod they didn't added notification for if a focus was available

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 03:38 PM

the #senior-contrib-highrise discussion we had about a notification system could work

I might try to impl that later today actually since it might be useful for TT

for unallocated production units

Fetti (Lil Break) 24-Feb-21 03:40 PM

@Walker Of Chaos @Lamounier for the Angolan skeleton stuff it's only JPN and USA that send contribs, right?

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 03:40 PM

werbell

the 24-Feb-21 03:40 PM

did you decided where to place them @Flaxbeard

the did you decided where to place them @Flaxbeard

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 03:40 PM

I think the spot you suggested is best

Fetti (Lil Break) 24-Feb-21 03:40 PM

sure, but idk how to pick werbell without picking all RUS unifiers

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 03:40 PM

right-to-left in the tab area under the tab selectors

Fetti (Lil Break) @Walker Of Chaos @Lamounier for the Angolan skeleton stuff it's only JPN and USA that send contribs, right?

Walker Of Chaos 24-Feb-21 03:48 PM

Yes

Fetti (Lil Break) 24-Feb-21 03:48 PM

Alright thank

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 04:32 PM

is it just me or does Social Expenditures not have gameplay impact right now

like it doesn't affect policy effectiveness

@OPAsian did you break it

could have sworn it was working fine in my AB run

OPAsian 24-Feb-21 04:33 PM

oh im currently replacing it with a more dynamic system

Critical Existence Failure 24-Feb-21 04:33 PM

oh

makes sense then

Fillmore, Lord Goring 24-Feb-21 04:50 PM

proxy wars

5

jesusツ - UwU 24-Feb-21 04:54 PM

can we make SAW 3 a proxy war

Flaxbeard I might try to impl that later today actually since it might be useful for TT

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 04:54 PM

you can fake alerts using diplomatic actions

Kyiv_Worker 24-Feb-21 04:55 PM

Finno-Russo war into a proxy

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 04:55 PM

so you could spawn a dummy diplomatic alert with, say, a daily check to see if the number of tokens > number of production tokens in use

DuoDex so you could spawn a dummy diplomatic alert with, say, a daily check to see if the number of tokens > number of production tokens in use

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 05:01 PM

I think a wholly custom system might be better just so we have more control

Ie so we can open a GUI when clicked

I’m not sure if you can do that with diplo actions

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 05:01 PM

there is no effect for showing /hiding basegame tabs, that's hardcoded

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 05:01 PM

Iirc OWB and Cold War mod both do a custom system

Yeah it’d show the Econ tab

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 05:02 PM

that's just a flag, innit?

diplo has a complete_effect same as anything else, and it will tie into alert system properly

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 05:03 PM

Ah nice

Does it add any overhead

For AI

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 05:04 PM

AI shouldn't ever get it since they would always assign 100% of production tokens right?

i'm thinking a dummy tag that will check once a day if player country(ies) have more tokens than are assigned (edited)

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 05:04 PM

Yeah I mean adding new diplo actions

Does that add any new checks

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 05:05 PM

no, you can restrict allowed = {} to one tag which evaluates only on load/reload

2

Flaxbeard 24-Feb-21 05:10 PM

awesome, that's really helpful

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 05:20 PM

@Flaxbeard

unassigned_tokens_alert = { icon = 19 allowed = { is_ai = no ROOT = { tag = UTL } } visible = { is_ai = no ROOT = { tag = UTL } } selectable = { AND = { check_variable = { production_tokens > production_tokens_in_use } has_country_flag = wants_production_tokens_alert NOT = { has_country_flag = recently_sent_tokens_alert } } can_be_accepted = { always = yes } #Localization bits send_description = ONLY_DUMMY_TAG receive_description = PRODUCTION_TOKENS_NOT_IN_USE accept_title = OPEN_ECON_TAB_FROM_ALERT accept_description = OPEN_ECON_TAB_FROM_ALERT_DESC reject_title = REJECT_OPEN_ECON_TAB_FROM_ALERT reject_description = REJECT_OPEN_ECON_TAB_FROM_ALERT_DESC #effect bits on_sent_effect = { set_country_flag = { flag = recently_sent_tokens_alert value = 1 days = 1 } } complete_effect = { set_country_flag = show_econ_tab } reject_effect = { clr_country_flag = recently_sent_tokens_alert } }

there would be a button somewhere to turn on/off the alerts i'd imagine

obviously I haven't put in the flags or whatnot

the 24-Feb-21 05:35 PM

@DuoDex does this dummy diplo action appears in the menu

or is there a way to hide it

jesusツ - UwU 24-Feb-21 05:36 PM

oh cool just noticed that its ingame

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/805766736543875083/814294146781020190/unknown.png

1

the @DuoDex does this dummy diplo action appears in the menu

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 05:37 PM

allowed = {} and visible = {} both hide it

we could probably yeet one of the checks tbh

since it's initially scoped to the target, you need to hit em with the ROOT to check to make sure only one country in this case UTL (a dummy utility tag) can use it

allowed is only checked on load, so performance impact is minimal, especially as diplo stuff is only calculated once daily

the 24-Feb-21 05:39 PM

if it's like decisions but there allowed is checked only at game start and visible is checked during a game

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 05:39 PM

yeah i haven't tested ingame since I don't know the equations, so i haven't edited that yet

the 24-Feb-21 05:40 PM

so it's not recommended using like duplicates since it's wasting performance for no reason

DuoDex 24-Feb-21 05:40 PM

if i get to test it at any point i'll look into optimizing the checks

jesusツ - UwU https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/805766736543875083/814294146781020190/unknown.png

Fillmore, Lord Goring 24-Feb-21 05:49 PM

awooga

CPR 25-Feb-21 12:58 AM

@Lamounier I pushed the last bit of Cold War GUI stuff (I think?), which was the data section on the bottom. I didn't adjust the size of the loc entries so it clips out rn, but it's in the right location at least

Poke around and lmk if there's anything else you want me to do with it

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 25-Feb-21 03:42 AM

Is surplus bugged atm? I'm not getting any liquid reserves

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 25-Feb-21 03:52 AM

I'm getting a massive deficit at year start, then it jumps back to the usual surplus after a few days

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 03:52 AM

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 25-Feb-21 03:54 AM

this is USA (RFK, 67->68) btw

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 04:02 AM

huh your social expenditure on the left was like 3x higher than it should be

hopefully it should be fixed on one of the new commits, but a tad weird

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 25-Feb-21 04:03 AM

the commit is from yesterday

might want to keep an eye on it on the next round of USA tests

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 04:04 AM

Plowix 25-Feb-21 04:06 AM

oh god wrong channel

OPAsian

Fedacking 25-Feb-21 04:16 AM

I know there was a weird bug on how total pop was calculated

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:23 AM

@OPAsian I think Skeleton Content for Angolan war for now is functional, anything I should check and if it's done something else ya need?

Fetti (Lil Break) @OPAsian I think Skeleton Content for Angolan war for now is functional, anything I should check and if it's done something else ya need?

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 04:23 AM

@Walker Of Chaos should know more. Maybe start on a decision category for Japan and America?

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:24 AM

Messing with America code gives me genuine fight or flight reactions, but sure

Fetti (Lil Break) Messing with America code gives me genuine fight or flight reactions, but sure

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 04:26 AM

fucking same im currently overhauling sliders and policy effectiveness, and it fucking spasms me out knowing that every nation will use this system

OPAsian fucking same im currently overhauling sliders and policy effectiveness, and it fucking spasms me out knowing that every nation will use this system

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:45 AM

no pressure but if you fuck up we're fucked for years

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 04:46 AM

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 04:51 AM

@Fetti (Lil Break) @OPAsian A simple decision category allowing for the sending of more volunteers/support in the style of current Germany OC would be fine I think (edited)

OPAsian fucking same im currently overhauling sliders and policy effectiveness, and it fucking spasms me out knowing that every nation will use this system

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 04:57 AM

Oh this so so very much. I very much try not to think about the fact that if I fuck up the leadership of this patch literally all of TNO will suffer because if I did I wouldn't sleep

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 05:00 AM

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 05:01 AM

Currently dealing with school stuff for a couple more hours but once that's done everyone should expect a slew of new documents to help with tracking work and the like

The Xenophobic Fascist 25-Feb-21 05:05 AM

only slightly related to TT but is it possible for fog to be turned off at game start

fog kinda hides unique 3D buildings

Walker Of Chaos @Fetti (Lil Break) @OPAsian A simple decision category allowing for the sending of more volunteers/support in the style of current Germany OC would be fine I think (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 05:13 AM

I'll check on it then!

Right now my job is

fixing the launcher

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 06:20 AM

I think I know the logic of the issue

lemme boot on a fully neutral country

The code is making the player tag declare war on the MPLA

No matter the country you are

[10:22:18][effectbase.cpp:2257]: [10:22:18][effectbase.cpp:2243]: 1:00, 1 January, 1962: Italian Empire declared war on MPLA

OH I THINK I KNOW WHATS GOING ON

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 06:25 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 06:26 AM

The declare war code

Is defaulting ROOT to the player tag

can I specify it as a war with ANG and ANL tags?

@OPAsian any idea?

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 06:28 AM

shouldnt it just be this?

scoping it correctly and doing declare_war_on

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 06:29 AM

Ah

the declare war was

out of ANG scope

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 06:29 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 06:30 AM

very pog

let's test it out now

finally

hirohito doesn't hate the mpla anymore

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 06:49 AM

is it this oner

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 06:51 AM

it seems like it is just this

apparently USA_advisor level is different from other nations advisor level

1

probably to track something with elections

Fedacking 25-Feb-21 06:56 AM

>Messing with America code gives me genuine fight or flight reactions, but sure I'm curious why is that? @Fetti#9906 @OPAsian#8622 (edited)

@OPAsian

Huh

Why didn't it work before?

Fedacking >Messing with America code gives me genuine fight or flight reactions, but sure I'm curious why is that? @Fetti#9906 @OPAsian#8622 (edited)

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 06:59 AM

probably something with how massive and important the US is

Fedacking 25-Feb-21 07:00 AM

Also @Fetti (Lil Break) missing ping

OPAsian probably something with how massive and important the US is

Fedacking 25-Feb-21 07:00 AM

I always like Facebook's old motto: "Move fast and Break things" (edited)

Thought that made glenn not have a mars landing

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 07:01 AM

Fedacking >Messing with America code gives me genuine fight or flight reactions, but sure I'm curious why is that? @Fetti#9906 @OPAsian#8622 (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 07:02 AM

Because a lot of the US code is very, very tight, and sometimes, very very loose

It's not a matter of a bad code as much as I don't understand what the fuck is going on and I'm terrified I'll mess something reallt bad

Proxy wars a go

....now to mess with USA code

god help me

8

CPR @Lamounier I pushed the last bit of Cold War GUI stuff (I think?), which was the data section on the bottom. I didn't adjust the size of the loc entries so it clips out rn, but it's in the right location at least

Lamounier 25-Feb-21 08:06 AM

Gotcha, thanks

Fillmore, Lord Goring 25-Feb-21 08:08 AM

y'all move fast hot damn

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 11:05 AM

@Fedacking I broke it when I first coded it

1

It didn’t work for months

Then I fixed it right before release

And you broke it for a few more months afterwords

It’s the circle of Glenn’s life

Don’t worry, some day a new contrib will come and repeat the cycle

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 01:09 PM

@Fetti (Lil Break) Checked your Angola CW work, was generally good but remember that effects where you give someone equipment should transfer from your own stockpiles and with the production tokens on map factories will no longer be used

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 01:10 PM

Oh, how do I transfer?

Do I remove equipment from my own stockpile or something, or set a minus value?

Hugh6734 25-Feb-21 01:11 PM

you can also add a decrease effect

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 01:11 PM

so for example

Add_equipment_to_stockpile = {

bababa

-1000

?

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 01:11 PM

send_equipment = { equipment = infantry_equipment amount = 100 target = GER }

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 01:11 PM

OHHH

Send

Shit, I'm sorry

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 01:12 PM

No worries

Walker Of Chaos send_equipment = { equipment = infantry_equipment amount = 100 target = GER }

Hugh6734 25-Feb-21 01:12 PM

you can do that but this is better

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 01:12 PM

And I'll tweak the factory one, yeah

My brain is still on vanilla functions on that

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 01:12 PM

np

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 01:12 PM

Any suggestion for a TT replacement?

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 01:12 PM

Maybe a natspirit boosting factory output?

Hugh6734 you can do that but this is better

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 01:15 PM

What was better?

Hugh6734 25-Feb-21 01:15 PM

your one

Walker Of Chaos 25-Feb-21 01:15 PM

Ah, missread

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 01:28 PM

Eventually granting Production Units is probably a decent benefit

or something in relation to the market

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 01:45 PM

I'll leave a note

but what do I do now

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 02:02 PM

an interesting this is

how will the AI manage proxy wars

that arent the main ones

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 02:05 PM

Sending volunteers isn't a decision, but a game mechanic

can weighten the AI to always send volunteers and give ai weight to the actions

Fetti (Lil Break) can weighten the AI to always send volunteers and give ai weight to the actions

the 25-Feb-21 02:32 PM

AI volunteers are broken

when this happens it just loads an OOB for the proxy war nation

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 02:35 PM

Shit

How do I set a specific oob for the volunteer to be the same for the nation it sent then?

Fetti (Lil Break) How do I set a specific oob for the volunteer to be the same for the nation it sent then?

the 25-Feb-21 02:40 PM

as I said(probably wasn't clear enough) you need to create an OOB to be loaded for whatever country if the major is an AI (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 02:50 PM

Oh I never done an OOB

North China Unionist - 變性權利 25-Feb-21 02:51 PM

copy/paste another and modify for your own needs

the code for them is pretty easy

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 02:56 PM

so I made this for the hell of it

This is like 75% functional 25% hardcoded but I'm fairly sure we could get a fully flexible system, and if need be make a python tool like the Camera legislation generator if we wanted I'm envisioning a different graphical style, sort of drawn as military plans or we could do CRT. Could have tabs for every active conflict.

(in response to this thread https://discord.com/channels/805758885595971605/805768932303831060/814257253157830686)

hell we could even use something like this for russia

Kyiv_Worker 25-Feb-21 03:02 PM

Well, that looks incredible, and if you need a CRT flair, there might be some people I can recommend for you Cough cough me cough

5

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:01 PM

holy shit

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:02 PM

Jesus christ flax

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:02 PM

truly utravisionary Design philosophy (edited)

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:03 PM

I can't imagine porting shit to this / hooking it up will be within TT's scope if we ever wanna get it out soon

The Ankamüdafaa 25-Feb-21 04:03 PM

yoooo based

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:03 PM

But holy fuck lmao

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:07 PM

Flaxbeard so I made this for the hell of it

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 04:07 PM

its like a second focus tree or what

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:07 PM

Maybe used for military interventions which we would either have crisis trees or decision categories for

(could be used for no-expansion-tree russia too?)

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:07 PM

WAIT THATS

THE IDEA I GAVE FOR CHILE IN CSS

YOU DID IT

YOU MADLAD DID IT

got damn

what the fuck is tt at this point

"So guys TT is very much disconnected from gameplay"

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:08 PM

~~now to find a way to make AI do one tree and player other so pre ECW england can be even cooler~~

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:08 PM

"Let's make it THE gameplay"

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 04:08 PM

i think it should be that but with normal icons except neon ones

like special icons for that

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:08 PM

I like the idea of neon icons

Feels like a hud display

Fedacking 25-Feb-21 04:09 PM

Eh, I really really like the art style for TNO icons

for the focuses tree

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:09 PM

other mods: cool innovations TNO: we made a 2nd focus tree menu

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 04:10 PM

yea i think we should use the 2nd focus tree menu for wars

like proxy wars

with normal icons

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:11 PM

tbh if we were to adopt it it would be good for more than just wars (edited)

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 04:11 PM

i mean we want the principal focus tree menu to still be used

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:12 PM

I do think keeping it for wars (maybe crises too) is for the best Benefits would be: - Can enable more than one tree at a time (tabs) - Doesn't screw up timing of domestic focuses Drawbacks: - Harder to code for than real focuses (may make a tool to make this easier) - Another thing for the player to manage It would have to serve a distinct gameplay focus (like wars) otherwise it's gonna feel weird

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:12 PM

I would say focus on making it for proxy wars first

Then we can add it as we see potential

I feel a tutorial is more important than ever now, lmfao

I

Also feel at this point TT is due a new teaser

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:13 PM

definitely need to get dev eyes on it too before we decide anything

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:13 PM

It is functionally a different beast now

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:13 PM

I just made it to see if it's possible not because it was approved

otherwise I'll sell it to the redux

or add to brazil

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 04:13 PM

no

the 25-Feb-21 04:13 PM

@Flaxbeard how you made it so it's draggable

the @Flaxbeard how you made it so it's draggable

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:14 PM

pain it's 2 guis, the outer one has 2 nested containers, Outer which is the size of the display (with clipping = yes) and Inner which is larger and can accommodate the entire "intervention tree" the second gui is set with parent_window_name = military_plans_view_container and draggable = yes and so it can be dragged in the bounds of the Inner container (but is only visible in the Outer container bounds) (edited)

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:15 PM

This could either be the greatest innovation ever if done right

Or the biggest over engineered pain in the ass possible

6

Should be a fun journey.

Actually now that I think about it

@Flaxbeard what’s the difference in functionality between this and a decision mechanic

North China Unionist - 變性權利 25-Feb-21 04:18 PM

endslide flashbacks

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:18 PM

Like, just to use an example that I know well

The SAW mechanic

DocOverbuild3 The SAW mechanic

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:18 PM

Nothing really, it's just a fancy presentation

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:18 PM

You’ve got decisions to send guns, troops, give buffs, etc

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:18 PM

we can add a timer to them, and also add prereqs

to make it more narrative based

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:19 PM

At that point though, like you said, it’s just something else to pay attention to for narrative purposes and I don’t know if the code cost is worth it

But that’s for later once it gets dtanderized and implemented

My follow up

I think using it for wars is going in the wrong direction

Might I suggest it be used for foreign policy instead

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:20 PM

The reason we would want it for wars is because wars don't mesh nicely with the focus tree flow

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:20 PM

So we can finally have a way to not sacrifice taking a domestic focus to go down a FP tree

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:20 PM

or at least that's a common complaint I've heard

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:20 PM

Yeah which is why we switched to using mechanics

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:20 PM

foreign policy is more baked in to the traditional plot

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:20 PM

Rather, decision mechanics

My point mainly

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:21 PM

if 2nd focus tree menu where to be used for foreign policy it could make the world more interesting imo

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 04:21 PM

what about a world map and every region a different focus tree

DocOverbuild3 So we can finally have a way to not sacrifice taking a domestic focus to go down a FP tree

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:21 PM

It's really not built to handle big trees, I've tried to polish it up but it's not as clean as the real focus system this is why I hesitate to use it for big FP trees

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:21 PM

Yes this gives more flavor, but it’s mechanical usage isn’t great when a decision menu could do it better through keeping things organized in one place, ease of use, not having to manage two different trees, etc. would it really be worth all the time and effort to make new faux trees that do a mechanics job worse?

jesusツ - UwU if 2nd focus tree menu where to be used for foreign policy it could make the world more interesting imo

uglidoll 25-Feb-21 04:21 PM

actual in depth foreign policy narrative without detracting from domestic would be a lot easier with that

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:22 PM

And again, most of this is theoretical so this is just me thinking design wise

I personally think if this was FP based it would actually have a purpose, but as it exists now it’s kind of over designing something that worked.

Especially with its lack of utility to be adapted to FP trees if that’s the case

Although, as you know, I’m not the boss anymore nor really even on the team. (edited)

So let’s see what the devs say

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:23 PM

The main impetus for trying this in my mind was to handle the various proxy wars that TT is introducing It would be too bulky to have a category for each proxy war, and this would let us add a bit of narrative to each without a response tree

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:23 PM

You are on the team doc

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:23 PM

@Flaxbeard Just have the same decision category with different scripted loc

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:23 PM

Personally I think porting over ForPol stuff / Wars to this would be fucking wonderful but it's such a massive scope and feature creep I feel like we'd have to spend the rest of the year porting shit over

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:23 PM

But there can be many active proxy wars

simulatenously

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:24 PM

Unless multiple can pop up at the same time

In that case, wouldn’t this system have the seem issue? Multiple small “trees” for all the various wars?

On top of managing everything else

Honestly

Hm

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:24 PM

It might not be worth it yeah

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:24 PM

I want to say maybe proxy wars weren’t the best idea but I’ll think on this more

Just got onto spring break so I’m in a designing mood

@Walker Of Chaos lmk when you have a minute, think we might need to reframe the problem

uglidoll 25-Feb-21 04:25 PM

I think proxy wars are really worth it just to make the world feel alive and the cold war feel meaningful

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

Also it's a great way to do things while waiting focus after focus for some nations

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

Also, apologies if I sound brash, this is all wonderful work I’d like to just make sure it goes to use.

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

I mean frankly the concept in general is probably way too beyond our scope

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

I know they aren't applicable yet, but for example

Iberia

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

I'll be frank it actually blew me away when I saw it

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

@uglidoll Rather, proxy wars aren’t the problem, but the way they are handled

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

they also appeal to my ooga booga me like war in hoi4 sense (edited)

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

But it's honestly probably just too much for TT

We're stretching scope as it is

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:26 PM

I would like to comment on that

And remind everyone that things that work great in a test environment will always need to be iterated

So what works well in concept and in game without being hooked up might actually turn out to be the wrong way to go. Simple fact of game development life.

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:27 PM

My scope worry is the amount of work generated per-tag. Large overhauls won't take that much work imo (it's been ~2 days and production units are in), but anything that's going to need reworking for all tags is going to take WAY more manpower

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:27 PM

But that’s for testing to decide

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:28 PM

Like, implementing the market is fine for scope but if it makes us have to go back and edit a lot of existing trees etc it's gonna be way worse

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:28 PM

Exactly

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:28 PM

@Flaxbeard the systems in, integration with economy, power research, focus trees, mechanics, are not

Which was more my point

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:28 PM

Making all foreign policy separate systems is genuinely a genius idea but it's also a shitload of work

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:28 PM

Or I might be behind and some of that stuff is done but the same general train of thought

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:28 PM

Scoping it down to just Proxy Wars is a bit better for scope but it's still a lot of work

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:28 PM

The prod unit system is at least somewhat forgiving since it leaves the vanilla mechanics alone and most effects can be moved over to just granting units

much better than a more invasive rework

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:29 PM

Basically, finish up the core systems first, make sure they work and are integrated perfectly, before we move on to further innovations

Targai Scoping it down to just Proxy Wars is a bit better for scope but it's still a lot of work

uglidoll 25-Feb-21 04:29 PM

To be fair every major with foriegn policy is getting a facelift / rework with some update except the us

So that could be done gradually

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:30 PM

Yes, and I pity the fucker that had to port of Speers diplomacy to this new system

And that’s just one

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:30 PM

My current opinion is that this is something that'd need to be done over several patches

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:30 PM

porting over Russian diplo be like

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:30 PM

ie we integrate stuff to this system (if we even introduce it at all, or in TT) over various patches

with all it initially launches with being simple small proxy war stuff

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:30 PM

I'd reiterate that I think porting fopo to a non-core hoi system like faux-us trees is IMO not a great idea reason I said wars/military ops is that it's smaller in scope

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:30 PM

yeah

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:31 PM

With my issue being at that point it’s a worse version of a decision menu

Why fix what’s not broken is what I’m trying to say

No matter how cool it is.

And I say that as the most anti tree person here

To the point where Tex and I tried to almost eliminate them completely in early Canada design (edited)

Well not completely but very limited interaction.

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:32 PM

the HOI4 focus tree system is a blessing and a curse

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:32 PM

The most I'd say for this, in a dream world where we have a big team, is to port wars to this system entirely

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:32 PM

Most things in hoi4 are

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:32 PM

and have the current focus menu be for political and diplo

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:32 PM

don't really get the hate I love using them for narrative progression

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:32 PM

and this new screen is war

But that's an actually terrifying amount of work and effort

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:33 PM

@Fetti (Lil Break) It’s not an effective work cost for what we get out of it

Is mainly my issue with it.

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:33 PM

Hm

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:33 PM

Yeah, gives you a little extra narrative, but is it worth entirely reworking the tree system?

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:34 PM

I really dislike decision menus for proxy wars but that's just me, they feel very lifeless There are a bunch of options in a list, they're difficult to parse, and they don't feel like you're actually meaningfully affecting the war, it's just making numbers go up or down I think this system has a lot of potential downsides (and I will only be a little hurt if we don't use it somehow

), but I do think it does do a few things focuses don't: provide a sense of progression, provide a nice visual representation of what's going on in the war, and adds optional loc

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:34 PM

Well let’s conceptualize a little bit

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:34 PM

They "cover up the spreadsheet" so-to-speak

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:34 PM

How would the SAW work with this new system

Integrating the discontent, war wariness, war crimes stuff, with a tree?

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:35 PM

if it were to be about proxy wars would it be possible for life if 2 were going on at once for there to be tabs to swap between either

jesusツ - UwU if it were to be about proxy wars would it be possible for life if 2 were going on at once for there to be tabs to swap between either

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:35 PM

that's my thinking ye

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:36 PM

The reason I ask is because I don't think there's a way to do it

But I'd like to be proven wrong because if we can make it work it's a genuinly great system

DocOverbuild3 Integrating the discontent, war wariness, war crimes stuff, with a tree?

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:37 PM

That's a good question. I think there's a few options: - Don't do it for SAW, it's too important and pivotal - Move the focus tree portions of the SAW to the "military operations" GUI, leave the decision menu unchanged - Embed the decision menu stuff in a display as part of the operations GUI. We'd have to have some reusable buttons too, I'd guess

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:37 PM

The SAW tree was a relic of release that's on the chopping block anyway so that's a non issue

For the first, if you only want to use this for minor proxy wars, that's fine but then again, wouldn't a decison menu be much more cost effective and easier?

For the third, at that point you're redesigning this thing to fit a square peg in a round hole, again for a few more narrative tidbits

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:38 PM

honestly if we had the team (and if its fully possible) it would be cool for internal stuff Eg Britain dealing with the state of wales/scotland post unification but this is just me dreaming (edited)

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:38 PM

And even if all those issues were meant, you're still left with the biggest one in my book

The reason why proxy wars are mechanical are because they're meant to be constantly interactive

Taking decisions, looking at what's needed and anaylzing the cost/benifit scenario of each, watching and looking for ways to minimize stuff like Discontent for the SAW or Popularity for the ICW

A tree takes all that away from you, because you're supposed to plod in a relatively straight line down

Under the current system, if you look back at South Africa and realize you might need a combat buff, you take the decision to authorize bombing runs and get a little discontent that you now have to manage

But under this, unless all the focuses are disconnected from each other (which takes away from the point anyway), what if that focus was 2 above the one you're on and all you can do is take a focus on holding a speech and lowering discontent when you need to beat the Nazis?

Yeah, it's got more narrative. You could have a great event about a speech that goes wrong or something, but in the effort to take away restraints from the player you're actually putting more on.

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:41 PM

I think that the decisions do provide a good sense of emergent gameplay, it is satisfying mechanically, but I think lets us down narratively Focus trees provide narrative satisfaction but give the player little agency

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:41 PM

Which is why I feel if the system is used, it would be much better for foriegn policy so you can leave actual focuses for domestic

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:41 PM

I think removing e.g. the SAW mechanic is a mistake, but I also think removing the SAW tree leaves it lifeless

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:41 PM

But as we've established that's a long, gradual, annoying road

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:41 PM

In fairness a lot of TT is trying to make Proxy Wars not feel like minor things, and instead like the major events in the cold war that they are

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:42 PM

Which I feel this system would do

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:42 PM

Again though, mine (and the devs I've talked to)'s main issue is how feasible this is. TT is already pretty massively feature bloated from the original plan

2

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:42 PM

Personally I think that questions already been answered

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:42 PM

Like, we want to get this patch out asap and adding another focus tree sounds really daunting

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:42 PM

Especially if you're worried about scope

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:42 PM

To be fair the original plan was just bell and whistles for the system we already have which most players ignore

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:42 PM

If this can be made to be easy and modular to implement I think it's a lot more palatable

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:43 PM

And isn't AM being used as a filler patch?

So we can have more time for TT

That was my impression a while ago

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:43 PM

AM+no expansion trees

iirc

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:43 PM

@Targai My question would then be what would this system be used for?

Providing smaller trees for the new proxy wars without making them actual focuses?

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:43 PM

I can see how feasible it would be to make a tool for something like this Or even a focus tree converter if people are most comfortable designing using focus syntax ^ only worth doing the above if we think we can get some use out of the system though

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:43 PM

Beacuse if that's all it is I think it'll work fine, but I would caution against porting this to all wars/proxys without a heavy redesign

DocOverbuild3 @Targai My question would then be what would this system be used for?

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:43 PM

Yeah, I think that's the smartest way to do it for a more limited scope

A big complaint people have about current proxy war trees is that they don't let you do political stuff

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:44 PM

My initial thought was that IF we used this system at all it'd only be for TT proxy wars

we could see if testers liked it, remove it at little investment if not, or expand it down the line in later patches if so

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:44 PM

Obviously the intention there is that it represents shit like the Great Society being put on the backburner in favor of vietnam

but it didn't really come across in a fun way at all

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:45 PM

I think this could have a use for porting over the smaller foriegn policy/proxy war trees, considering that should be easy enough.

Targai 25-Feb-21 04:45 PM

I think letting the player do both is a really good idea, and I think having this feature be something we implement incrementally across patches it's a lot smarter than just trying to do it all in TT

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:45 PM

But in terms of replacing all the mechanics entirely is what I'm worried about

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:45 PM

again I had no intention of this being used for any existing proxy war (w/ mechanics and trees), certainly not for TT

well

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:45 PM

I do like Flaxbeard suggestion, IMO.

This being more of an encompassing mechanic for Smaller scale proxy wars

With the big ones being story beats

And dealt differently

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:46 PM

tbh this is coming from me testing as USA or any major i tend to ignore war trees since they just take my time

instead of doing the more important things

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:46 PM

@jesusツ - UwU Yeah, the only reason I didn't junk them is I felt obligated to include them

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 04:46 PM

Focus.autocomplete

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:46 PM

Since those were some of the original trees

Of course with this new system it'd be a million times better

Still keeping the underlying south african war mechanic intact, while moving the focuses you don't want to waste domestic time on to a new menu

DocOverbuild3 Still keeping the underlying south african war mechanic intact, while moving the focuses you don't want to waste domestic time on to a new menu

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:47 PM

I think that'd be ok, only concern then is just that the player has to toggle between the two

I guess if it's a popout not a tab you can have both up

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:48 PM

I mean, knowing how balancing and the AI is

Probably never going to have to take the war trees anyway

Since they just die before you even get to the good stuff

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:48 PM

well, trees could even handle the pre-war stuff

or pre-volunteers at least

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:48 PM

Wym?

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:48 PM

Sort of advisor stuff

sending supplies

especially with the TT proxy wars the motivations won't be as obvious

show why e.g. Japan cares about this native group, how they establish diplomatic ties, them sending advisers and g uns

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:49 PM

You mean like the motivations for backing each faction>

Could just do it through CIA/Japan intel agency whatever the fuck it is/RND reports if you wanted

2-3 events about tensions in the region, finding the guy you want and sending him some goodies to get started, then one right before the war explaining whats up

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:50 PM

Yes

good point

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:50 PM

And that takes the need to constantly toggle back to the new panel away (edited)

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:52 PM

Also valid

We could make it a popup, but that's still another GUI to juggle

I'm unconvinced of the need for something like this atm, but I figured it would at least spawn an interesting discussion

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:52 PM

And at that point it's a why even go through all those hoops

Well you certainly did that lol

Flaxbeard 25-Feb-21 04:53 PM

and I spent some time implementing it so I figured I'd force people to look at it

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:53 PM

Truly, far ahead of your time

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:53 PM

It's definetly got some use, just think it needs some more polish and purpose first

I do feel bad though

First I killed Volks dreams and now yours (edited)

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 04:56 PM

What a bad person

DocOverbuild3 25-Feb-21 04:56 PM

I'm like a tan grim reaper

Dousing water on every cool thing I see

Old pessimistic habits die hard

jesusツ - UwU 25-Feb-21 04:58 PM

im just one of those weirdos that likes swapping through GUIs all the time

then again that could just be me fiddling with stuff all the time

Fetti (Lil Break) 25-Feb-21 04:58 PM

Got nothing to add that wasn't said

The Spaniard 25-Feb-21 05:00 PM

The more cool GUIs the better

OPAsian 25-Feb-21 05:12 PM

My god, imagine if you had the Bonus tree overlayed on a map of the borders

Then you could do like “Strike Namibia” in case of the SAW, and get state buffs on it

who? (break) 25-Feb-21 10:55 PM

https://tenor.com/view/fairly-odd-parents-super-f-fail-timmy-turner-crocker-gif-20309047 TNO members when they take their international geopolitics and econ exam before joining TT

who? (break) https://tenor.com/view/fairly-odd-parents-super-f-fail-timmy-turner-crocker-gif-20309047 TNO members when they take their international geopolitics and econ exam before joining TT

Bamba 26-Feb-21 12:25 AM

Pinned a message.

Walker Of Chaos 26-Feb-21 01:00 AM

@Fetti (Lil Break) ~~plz slow down I can only give out tasks so fast~~ You got a couple of options for tasks 1. Hit up @Oveja and split the remaining African proxies between the two of you 2. If you're up for it there is a US tree I'd want turned into a decision category 3. We're gonna want flavor events for each proxy 4. Victory events for each side in Angola notifying the superpower that their side won/lost and adding the candidate they backed to their economic sphere (edited)

for the later I'm working on some generic scripted effects that will provide other rewards (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 03:45 AM

1. Yes 2.Yes 3.Yes 4. Yes

3

Fetti (Lil Break) 1. Yes 2.Yes 3.Yes 4. Yes

Walker Of Chaos 26-Feb-21 05:12 AM

Alright feel free to tackle it in any desired order

Also @Toolbox Theory Development Report time. From now on we'll be collecting reports for this patch every week. You've got 24 or so hours to get them in. Don't worry too much about this week since we just started and all. Here is the report sheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/105hObhmEWloxL-wMqqqT902y7uVmvd6ESe05ENplU5o/edit#gid=2048163745

TT Report Sheet

26th of February 2021 you are entering the contrib zone Info Name(s),Status,Role,Subteam/ Project,Current Work,Progress,Completed Work,Notes/Thoughts Walker Of Chaos,Active,TL,Foreign Politics/Admin Lamounier,Contrib,Econ OPAsian,Contrib,Econ Oveja,Contrib,Foreign Politics Wendell,Contrib,Econ F...

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 05:16 AM

@Walker Of Chaos what three you want converted into decisions btw

Walker Of Chaos 26-Feb-21 05:17 AM

Indonesia

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 05:17 AM

Did I say three

Walker Of Chaos 26-Feb-21 05:18 AM

i gotcha

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 05:18 AM

@Walker Of Chaos gotcha, will get to it

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 26-Feb-21 05:25 AM

Since not everyone can see tester chat, I'll put this here as well: the UBI policy is way too expensive atm. It's 1000$pp, which seems about right from a modern pov, but that's around 9000$ 1960 at 2% inflation.

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 05:28 AM

@Fedacking

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray Since not everyone can see tester chat, I'll put this here as well: the UBI policy is way too expensive atm. It's 1000$pp, which seems about right from a modern pov, but that's around 9000$ 1960 at 2% inflation.

Fedacking 26-Feb-21 06:42 AM

It's correct it's what mcgovern proposed

UBI should be a massive expense

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 26-Feb-21 06:43 AM

McGovern proposed 1000$ a year though

the current option is per month IIRC

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray the current option is per month IIRC

Fedacking 26-Feb-21 06:45 AM

nope, yearly

UBI is and would have been by far the biggest welfare expenditure

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 26-Feb-21 06:46 AM

still, the current implementation completely shreds your economy and you have no way of backing out of it manually

Fedacking 26-Feb-21 06:46 AM

With RFK?

probably should give an option to not pass it

@Oveja

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 26-Feb-21 06:47 AM

yes, I passed it as RFK

I'm not sure is this is even intended to pass tbh

Fedacking 26-Feb-21 06:47 AM

probably not, when I first put the number I didn't think anyone could get to it

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 26-Feb-21 06:48 AM

Large unemployment subsidies seem a lot more reasonable and fitting to the text of the events

Fedacking 26-Feb-21 06:48 AM

also fun fact, it used to be twice as expensive

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 26-Feb-21 06:50 AM

I just checked back a few saves, I had gotten to Generous Unemployment Subsidies before somehow, then the Social Security Act pushed it up to UBI (edited)

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray I just checked back a few saves, I had gotten to Generous Unemployment Subsidies before somehow, then the Social Security Act pushed it up to UBI (edited)

Fedacking 26-Feb-21 06:51 AM

yeah, this is Oveja's work. We should be really careful with the UBI thing, it should be for some very specific circumstances

Lt. Cmdr. Stingray 26-Feb-21 06:52 AM

Alright, I figured it must at least be an oversight that you can actually get there, good to know

Oveja 26-Feb-21 07:40 AM

Oh yeah the UBI thing is an oversight on my part, I'll cap it to the level bellow it

Also thanks for the report, will create the respective issues and go through it

Walker Of Chaos @Fetti (Lil Break) ~~plz slow down I can only give out tasks so fast~~ You got a couple of options for tasks 1. Hit up @Oveja and split the remaining African proxies between the two of you 2. If you're up for it there is a US tree I'd want turned into a decision category 3. We're gonna want flavor events for each proxy 4. Victory events for each side in Angola notifying the superpower that their side won/lost and adding the candidate they backed to their economic sphere (edited)

Oveja 26-Feb-21 07:41 AM

@AtomicFalco I still need to know who backs who, but it seems @Fetti (Lil Break) is handling this very well

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 07:44 AM

I am finishing up the graph for West Africa

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 07:45 AM

@AtomicFalco alright lmk when done

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:08 AM

@Oveja @Fetti (Lil Break) Here is the main graph for the West African crisis, with the main actor being Free France and Cameroon. The idea would be that the OFN would always back the Free French, and the Japenese would always back Cameroon. The only difference in the three scenarios are who are allied to these two (with the blue one having a third non-backed side)

It's a simplified graph of all of the paths West Africa can take of course, but for now it's more than enough to make the area feel more alive

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 08:11 AM

Sounds good. I take all of this starts only after the African Anarchy lands are annexed, correct?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Pretty much yeah. I have specified the timeframe of each step in the text on most of them

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Gotcha

Alright once I'm done with some assorted chore I'll get to it

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:13 AM

Alright, if you have any question, or if you need precisions, I'll be here the whole day

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 08:14 AM

Oveja 26-Feb-21 08:16 AM

@Fetti (Lil Break) what will you work on btw

I can take the pro-cameroon gbeland (edited)

(And set up the initial conflict)

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 08:19 AM

Gotcha, I'll take the Diplo Annex path

This seems to always happen in both times so will ya set that up or I?

Oveja 26-Feb-21 08:20 AM

I can set it up

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:20 AM

For the politicians btw, just keep the starting ones less there is a socialist coup, where you can just have it generic and I'll fill it up

Oveja 26-Feb-21 08:20 AM

Aight sure thing

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 08:21 AM

@Oveja will wait for ya to get the initial set up done then?

Oveja 26-Feb-21 08:21 AM

Yeah, will get to it in 15 minutes

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 08:22 AM

Godspeed

AtomicFalco @Oveja @Fetti (Lil Break) Here is the main graph for the West African crisis, with the main actor being Free France and Cameroon. The idea would be that the OFN would always back the Free French, and the Japenese would always back Cameroon. The only difference in the three scenarios are who are allied to these two (with the blue one having a third non-backed side)

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 08:35 AM

map for reference

zarmaland and kayes not on here sadly

just imagine them both being split in two

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:36 AM

Kayes and Mali should be at war with each other, same with Sokoto and Zarmaland

In both cases, if Mali or Sokoto looses to their counterpart, it falls on the status-quo West Africa

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 08:43 AM

@AtomicFalco scenario one unfolds like this right? dont know what happens to yorubaland (both blues are OFN, red is japan) (edited)

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:45 AM

Gbeland and Yorubaland stays neutral in that scenario (edited)

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 08:45 AM

ahh

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:47 AM

I misspoke, Ghana is with Cameroon

But otherwise yeah

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 08:48 AM

this is too complicated can we make africa look like this

@AtomicFalco oh yeah what happens if FFR or cameroon wins

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:57 AM

If FFR wins, they would put friendly governments in the beaten countries, and put them all in their faction. If Cameroon wins, basically the same but in red

Flaxbeard 26-Feb-21 08:58 AM

no border changes/puppets?

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 08:58 AM

Does De Gaulle dies?

2

Flaxbeard no border changes/puppets?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:59 AM

The same as French victory I mean, Cameroon puts puppets everywhere

Fetti (Lil Break) Does De Gaulle dies?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 08:59 AM

Well, it's complicated. We could do that, it's not necessary, but we could

Fetti (Lil Break) Does De Gaulle dies?

Fedacking 26-Feb-21 09:00 AM

no, degaulle loses a referendum on regionalism

1

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 09:00 AM

And if we do, since FFR dev is far away, we could just get away with putting someone like Jacques Massu to replace him

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 09:01 AM

very fascinating

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 09:01 AM

I mean on a Cameroon victory scenario

AtomicFalco And if we do, since FFR dev is far away, we could just get away with putting someone like Jacques Massu to replace him

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 09:01 AM

15 free frances proposal

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 09:01 AM

FFR scenario I feel he just straight up soft-retires/pass away

8 monarchist FFR paths

Fetti (Lil Break) I mean on a Cameroon victory scenario

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 09:01 AM

Oh yeah, definitly

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 09:02 AM

Could make a flavour for French State/OFN about his death, will keep it in mind

Oveja 26-Feb-21 10:38 AM

@AtomicFalco should dice rolls ideally have one chance higher? or just 50/50

Also there's two mossilands in the country list

Oveja 26-Feb-21 10:59 AM

3

North China Unionist - 變性權利 26-Feb-21 11:02 AM

Goddammit-

Oveja 26-Feb-21 11:43 AM

Hey btw @AtomicFalco, should free france or cameroon annex gbeland or something?

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 11:50 AM

AMOGUS

Oveja Hey btw @AtomicFalco, should free france or cameroon annex gbeland or something?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 12:29 PM

No, just puppet

AtomicFalco No, just puppet

Oveja 26-Feb-21 12:30 PM

Aight, btw another question

Apart from the West African Alliance, should Cameroon or Free France form their own faction?

Oveja 26-Feb-21 12:43 PM

@Fetti (Lil Break) I'm about to push the setup

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 12:48 PM

Push me off a cliff

Tô the pit

Oveja Apart from the West African Alliance, should Cameroon or Free France form their own faction?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 01:06 PM

Yeah, Free France should be the "French Military Alliance", and Cameroon the "Pan-African Liberation Front"

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 01:08 PM

@AtomicFalco @Oveja We could frenchi-fy the name, for flavour, like Alliance militaire de la France libre or Alliance militaire française

uglidoll 26-Feb-21 01:10 PM

What language does Cameroon use as a pan african language

If any

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 01:12 PM

It's actually something I have no idea on

I think they would speak French, as they did OTL (the movement I mean)

But yeah, it feels weird to have an anti-colonialist movement speak a colonialist language

But for now, let's say they speak French

Fetti (Lil Break) @AtomicFalco @Oveja We could frenchi-fy the name, for flavour, like Alliance militaire de la France libre or Alliance militaire française

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 01:14 PM

Mmh, I feel like having them in their own language is reserved to majors

AtomicFalco Mmh, I feel like having them in their own language is reserved to majors

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 01:14 PM

You could say FF is a Major on their zone of influence though. Makes it feel like the big conflict in their zone

Perspective and all

Flaxbeard 26-Feb-21 01:16 PM

Pidgin english seems fairly common in cameroon?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 01:16 PM

That's a minor thing, let's just keep it in english for now

Flaxbeard Pidgin english seems fairly common in cameroon?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 01:17 PM

Yeah, and Cameroon annexed a big english speaking area, but the leadership is all French-speaking

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 01:17 PM

Das fair

Flaxbeard 26-Feb-21 01:17 PM

Yeah the areas of nigeria right

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 01:17 PM

Yeah

I need to dig into it way more

It's something I want to figure out honestly

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 01:48 PM

@AtomicFalco do you know where is the code that creates/expands the rest of the Anarchy? I managed to find some, but I wanna create a debug to make it easier to get the full picture ~~and the tags~~

jesusツ - UwU 26-Feb-21 01:51 PM

i still feel like the expansion into africa world event

isnt needed

Flaxbeard 26-Feb-21 01:52 PM

Could be removed once the wars happen

still draws attention to west africa without being an event about... people migrating inwards?

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 01:54 PM

Just spelunking trying to find when that happens

Lamounier 26-Feb-21 01:55 PM

imo just remove the African anarchy blob

Have all states that spawn from it be already present from the start

Flaxbeard 26-Feb-21 01:57 PM

nobody stands up for the ZZZ tag, always nerfed never buffed

(edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 01:59 PM

Fuck it

I'm gonna code it myself

Lamounier Have all states that spawn from it be already present from the start

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 02:00 PM

i kinda just want it to be one big ass demilitarised zone

Lamounier Have all states that spawn from it be already present from the start

The Xenophobic Fascist 26-Feb-21 02:01 PM

that'd mean ZZZ's leader bio would have to be rewritten since the loc mentions bombings in africa

then again it kinda needs a rewrite in the first place anyways because the same bio appears during nuclear war

Lamounier 26-Feb-21 02:01 PM

Just

Don't have a bio

Flaxbeard 26-Feb-21 02:02 PM

ZZ2 tag just for africa

(edited)

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 02:03 PM

@Fetti (Lil Break) make sure to have a debug to have zarmaland and kayes pop up as well

who? (break) @Fetti (Lil Break) make sure to have a debug to have zarmaland and kayes pop up as well

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 02:03 PM

Can ya give me their ids so I can do that?

Also

Guinea's tag is a curse

Fetti (Lil Break) Can ya give me their ids so I can do that?

who? (break) 26-Feb-21 02:04 PM

fuck if i know lol i just remember it because i did west africa icons

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 02:04 PM

Fetti (Lil Break) Just spelunking trying to find when that happens

Oveja 26-Feb-21 02:06 PM

world.22 and the first west african event

the crisis is setup through an african on_action

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 02:06 PM

gotcha

these tags are killing me

Oveja 26-Feb-21 02:13 PM

I didn't make them

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 02:30 PM

There we go

Lamounier 26-Feb-21 02:40 PM

@Toolbox Theory Development Just dropping by with a quick announcement: as part of my most recent push, the consumer_goods_factor and min_export modifiers are now deprecated - do not use them for anything anymore, ever, and comment any mentions of these modifiers you come across except for the one in the economy_multiplicative_modifiers_base idea.

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 03:14 PM

@AtomicFalco

What exactly entails this, is it

Fuuta Fulbe vs Sokoto?

Or just Cameroon puppeting Sokoto

Just got confused

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 03:58 PM

@Oveja I'm claiming west_african_crisis from 9 till 11

Oveja 26-Feb-21 04:06 PM

Sure

jesusツ - UwU 26-Feb-21 04:07 PM

god fulbe is such a bright colour

Fetti (Lil Break) Fuuta Fulbe vs Sokoto?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 04:07 PM

Sokoto is supposed to have waged war with Zarmaland already, and it's more traditional Sokoto vs socialist Sokoto

jesusツ - UwU 26-Feb-21 04:07 PM

really off putting compared to the rest of west africa

jesusツ - UwU god fulbe is such a bright colour

Flaxbeard 26-Feb-21 04:09 PM

fulbe eyesore wc

wait is this screenshot taking during the night

do people actually play hoi with the day night cycle on

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 04:10 PM

I had to reinstall tno and forgot to deactivate that

3

OPAsian 26-Feb-21 04:10 PM

please make fulbe purple instead of eyeshattering blue

jesusツ - UwU 26-Feb-21 04:10 PM

one of these nations is not like the others

AtomicFalco Sokoto is supposed to have waged war with Zarmaland already, and it's more traditional Sokoto vs socialist Sokoto

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 04:11 PM

So, set up a faction in sokoto and make them get in civil war?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 04:11 PM

Yeah

But the socialist should always win for the proxy war to progress

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 04:12 PM

Alright

I'll be hoping in 20 min for a while, but I'll just clean what I have and push

tomorrow or later I'll set up the tag and everything

The socialist Sokoto tag already exists or do I make it?

AtomicFalco 26-Feb-21 04:13 PM

I don't think it exists

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 04:13 PM

Gotcha

jesusツ - UwU 26-Feb-21 04:15 PM

it still suprises me just how fast TT dev is going

jesusツ - UwU it still suprises me just how fast TT dev is going

Flaxbeard 26-Feb-21 04:17 PM

for me at least it's cause I like destroying things and TT lets me destroy vanilla mechanics (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 26-Feb-21 04:19 PM

I've literally been antsy to be put at work and it isn't a surprise to anyone (edited)

Fillmore, Lord Goring 26-Feb-21 05:25 PM

Isn’t Futa Fulbe a bad name for that place anyways

I feel like that was brought up a few months ago

uglidoll 26-Feb-21 05:27 PM

Looking it up it was only mentioned a few times and the feedback was more about its leader than name

Lamounier 26-Feb-21 05:29 PM

Messing with some UI changes to the influence gui

The empty space to the right was bothering me so I added another vertical column

jesusツ - UwU 26-Feb-21 05:29 PM

greatest wales.....

uglidoll Looking it up it was only mentioned a few times and the feedback was more about its leader than name

Fillmore, Lord Goring 26-Feb-21 05:35 PM

There were outside complaints about the name too

It was around the time we realized that someone made My Lai a VP

Lamounier Click to see original message

the 26-Feb-21 05:43 PM

the plus button over the flags looks ugly

Lamounier 26-Feb-21 05:44 PM

It's just a button for debugging

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 04:30 AM

@AtomicFalco Which of the breakaway from Sokoto should exist around 1966?

I know you said one of them, Zanarland I think? Is probably gone

Just wanna adjust the debug code

Fetti (Lil Break) @AtomicFalco Which of the breakaway from Sokoto should exist around 1966?

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 04:32 AM

Fuuta Fulbe (FTF) would probably still be around. Something we could do to save one tag, is have them be the Cameroon-backed side of the Sokoto Civil War. Like, we can have Djibo Bakary take over FTF, and then declaring war on Sokoto to transform it into a socialist republic

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 04:33 AM

Nah dw I already made the tag

I thought making it start on the border with cameron made sense

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 04:50 AM

Yeah alright, nice

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 04:51 AM

Check your dms I think I sent a link with possible leader

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 04:53 AM

Yeah I saw that, I had in mind Boubou Hama but Djibo Bakary works as well

Bakary could allow me to have a kind of rivalry with Hamani Diori, which could be interesting

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 04:54 AM

Oh, nice

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 04:54 AM

And I have a portrait for Bakari ready

It should already be in the mod, under the FTF tag (since I didn't know where to put him yet)

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 04:56 AM

Nice I'll add to him after I'm done tweaking something

For some reason the war with Sokoto isn't firing, but it's probably indentation shenanigans

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 05:40 AM

@AtomicFalco how do I set politics to socialist with the subtype

Cause it's going default

Oh nvm it's working

just not reading the portrait

Still wanna set to the subtype but deets for now

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 05:47 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) Click to see original message

Bamba 27-Feb-21 05:48 AM

Oh my god Obama

/s

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 05:51 AM

@AtomicFalco Which is the communist leader in Ghiana?

Or socialist leader, rather

nvm found it

Fetti (Lil Break) @AtomicFalco Which is the communist leader in Ghiana?

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 05:59 AM

Kwame Nkrumah

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 05:59 AM

Gotcha, gotcha

I accidentally set the takeover to happen in Guinea

Looks like it breaks

who? (break) 27-Feb-21 06:34 AM

@Fetti (Lil Break) this unironically looks cool

who? (break) @Fetti (Lil Break) this unironically looks cool

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 06:35 AM

th-thanks

OPAsian 27-Feb-21 06:35 AM

who? (break) 27-Feb-21 06:36 AM

while we're at it can we integrate crisises since we have time

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 06:39 AM

which crisis, ya mean the WAC with the Angolan CW?

who? (break) 27-Feb-21 06:40 AM

i mean the diplo crisises

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 06:41 AM

Call me really stupid but I'm not quite sure watcha mean. Integrate these crises before TT ya mean?

who? (break) i mean the diplo crisises

OPAsian 27-Feb-21 06:41 AM

We are thinking of yeeting those/replacing those with another system

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 06:47 AM

why is the portraits

for Ghana

using Gbeland pictures

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 07:06 AM

there we go

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 07:46 AM

Wolofia needs a port

how do i add et

Fetti (Lil Break) how do i add et

Fillmore, Lord Goring 27-Feb-21 07:47 AM

Go the state file in the history folder (edited)

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 07:47 AM

state fail

Fillmore, Lord Goring 27-Feb-21 07:47 AM

File

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 07:47 AM

and add a structure to it?

Fillmore, Lord Goring 27-Feb-21 07:48 AM

Can’t remember what the exact command is atm

But add a dockyard

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 07:49 AM

gotcha

thanks

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 07:54 AM

Dakar should be on the coast

Eternal Iberian Click to see original message

OPAsian 27-Feb-21 07:55 AM

mfw TT forces West Africa has to do frontending now

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 07:57 AM

I mean if Dakar of all cities is misplaced I fear for the rest of the capitals

Dakar is porbably the easiest west african capital to know its position (edited)

jesusツ - UwU 27-Feb-21 08:00 AM

if in doubt blame the map projection

jesusツ - UwU 27-Feb-21 08:08 AM

@Eternal Iberian

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:08 AM

thanks

ok dakar and Freetown are on the wrong position

both should be on the coast

Banjul too

Conakry too

Monrovia probably too

Lamounier 27-Feb-21 08:10 AM

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:10 AM

bamako seems alright

at least its on the river

Abidjan seems to be inland instead of right on the coast

Ekó too

Niamey is supposed to be on the Niger river not in the middle of nowhere

who? (break) 27-Feb-21 08:12 AM

what happened to fuuta fulbe

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:12 AM

Douala should be somewhat closer to the coast

jesusツ - UwU 27-Feb-21 08:13 AM

@who? (break) this is just the debug command

who? (break) 27-Feb-21 08:13 AM

ooohh

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:13 AM

Nema seems alright

Agadez too

jesusツ - UwU 27-Feb-21 08:14 AM

still kinda funky that none of the expanding african nations dont get claims or anything on the land they take

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:14 AM

Ouagadougou seems fine

Nkran is Acra and shouldnt be that close to the river

Lome seems ok

almost every west african capital is badly placed (edited)

2

jesusツ - UwU still kinda funky that none of the expanding african nations dont get claims or anything on the land they take

who? (break) 27-Feb-21 08:16 AM

the germans bombed the cores out of them as well

Eternal Iberian almost every west african capital is badly placed (edited)

who? (break) 27-Feb-21 08:16 AM

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:17 AM

we need this icon

jesusツ - UwU 27-Feb-21 08:17 AM

oh wait the expanding west african nations seem to get cores now

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:17 AM

oh wait its in

lmaoooo

Also uhhhhhh

why does west africa start under anarchy while west russia doesnt

jesusツ - UwU 27-Feb-21 08:20 AM

you know can we just straight up remove the african anarchy in TT? (edited)

no real reason to be there imo

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:20 AM

west russia is probably receiving the majority of the bombing runs and the decision hides a sorta naive racism imo

OPAsian 27-Feb-21 08:23 AM

@AtomicFalco Could we make it so that West Africa doesnt start under anarchy, but the ex-anarchy zones are demilitarized until the GCW? (edited)

OPAsian @AtomicFalco Could we make it so that West Africa doesnt start under anarchy, but the ex-anarchy zones are demilitarized until the GCW? (edited)

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 08:28 AM

I don't know, I never was fond of that idea for two reasons. First, because that would mean adding 2 years of content for all of these countries, which isn't nothing, and second, because in the lore I have right now, these nations were very decentralized, and the borders non-existent due to that. The idea was that the mayors of each cities would have to pledge allegiance to someone (or not, like in Kayes), which means that the concept of "nation" is too vague for it to make sense on a map. I know Russia does that and is in a similar situation, but I don't know, I'll have to think about it (edited)

OPAsian 27-Feb-21 08:29 AM

who? (break) 27-Feb-21 08:31 AM

@AtomicFalco @OPAsian compromise

OPAsian 27-Feb-21 08:31 AM

who? (break) @AtomicFalco @OPAsian compromise

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 08:31 AM

Where the fuck does that even come from

uglidoll 27-Feb-21 08:34 AM

I just feel like it's an uncomfortable double standard that the african nations get a big anarchy blob while the west russian ones get content in that time frame and appear on the map

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 08:36 AM

Fuuta Fulbe spawns a few hours after the command.

Because making it spawn all at once made it appear BEFORE sokoto did

uglidoll I just feel like it's an uncomfortable double standard that the african nations get a big anarchy blob while the west russian ones get content in that time frame and appear on the map

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 08:43 AM

Well, let me put it this way. Russia's narrative in the early game is mostly about how each warlord functions as small political experiments. The first two years, before the bombings ends, is mostly about that, how their ideology works, without much evolution until the bombings ends, and they can start expanding and developing outside of their enclosed bubble. They need these two years, because you need to have some time getting used to these wacky nations before entering the expansion phase. West Africa doesn't have the luxury of having as much possibilities as Russia has, mostly because between when Russia was made, and West Africa will be made, there have been huge narrative philosophy differences. To me, West Africa doesn't particularly needs these two years narratively, and even if we could fill this time with content about how their government works during the bombings, I don't think there will be enough material to justify the increased amount of work. After all, West Africa's main thing is a battle of spheres of influences, and before the GCW this can't really happen because both Cameroon and Free France are isolated, on top of a lack of meaningful foreign policy due to the difficulties of working with other nations in the area. All and all, it's not a problem of me wanting to portray the West African nations as well as Russia or not, but more a problem of "is it worth the increased work", which I don't think it is. The best compromise we could do, is having them appear after the attempted assassination of Hitler, but that's something that will need a longer discussion, and since West Africa dev is a long time away, it's not something we particularily need to focus on at the moment. (edited)

I might also add that I have lore for these two years before the end of the bombings, but while each nation have a somewhat different start, I don't feel like it's going to be different enough in the gameplay to warrant full content (edited)

jesusツ - UwU 27-Feb-21 08:49 AM

@AtomicFalco so like if cameroon wins against FFR what would they do after ?

jesusツ - UwU @AtomicFalco so like if cameroon wins against FFR what would they do after ?

AtomicFalco 27-Feb-21 08:50 AM

Well, theoretically they would continue to expand their reach into the Congo area, and try to silence the nationalist movements in West Africa

FFR would cease to exist, replaced by a friendly Côte d'Ivoire government

Eternal Iberian I mean if Dakar of all cities is misplaced I fear for the rest of the capitals

Fillmore, Lord Goring 27-Feb-21 08:55 AM

Dakar is actually right on the coast in PW

Eternal Iberian 27-Feb-21 08:58 AM

bruh

jesusツ - UwU 27-Feb-21 08:58 AM

ye map changes are in all branches apart from TT

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 09:00 AM

Hm, I was thinking if De Gaulle dies in the outcome of the Crisis if an event for the French player of a choice if they allow him to be buried there or not would be neat

But I digress

#toolbox-theory is just #discount_westafrica_dev

The Restroom User 27-Feb-21 09:44 AM

@nexus #war crimes dev is errr Wallace on the test req doc?

The Restroom User @nexus #war crimes dev is errr Wallace on the test req doc?

nexus #war crimes dev 27-Feb-21 10:04 AM

prob not

i dont have access to the doc

and i dont think walker requested

The Restroom User 27-Feb-21 10:04 AM

ah. K

Fetti (Lil Break) Click to see original message

Oveja 27-Feb-21 01:32 PM

thanks obama

General Ambrose 27-Feb-21 02:01 PM

Is sokoto supposed to not have sokoto?

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 02:03 PM

General Ambrose 27-Feb-21 02:03 PM

Cause as of right now Sokoto the city is in the Cameroon African State

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 02:11 PM

That's

Interesting

General Ambrose 27-Feb-21 02:14 PM

Also irl Cameroon’s capital is Yaoundé, not Douala.

Unless there’s a lore reason for why it’s Douala, it should be Yaoundé.

Oveja 27-Feb-21 02:18 PM

btw @Fetti (Lil Break) why do the placeholder events give political power

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 02:18 PM

Because I used it to debug because it wasn't falling in any of it

Oveja 27-Feb-21 02:19 PM

Ah aight

Will remove it if it's okay, just for a tiny bit of performance

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 02:33 PM

Np

Oveja 27-Feb-21 02:43 PM

@AtomicFalco For the peace deals, how much land should each faction per path take/puppets/etc

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Sadawa should annex everything, being a civil war and all

Unless you mean the resolution of the Crisis

Oveja 27-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Oh by the way on that regard, any peace deal text?

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Winner faction from what I took establish friendly regimes on the states

Oh, absolutely, we can write a few

FFR should be a punch in the face

Despite the fact I find them imo the "villains" of the crisis

Even got a quote

Let us be firm, pure and faithful; at the end of our sorrow, there is the greatest glory of the world, that of the men who did not give in.

Oveja 27-Feb-21 04:20 PM

@Fetti (Lil Break) @Walker Of Chaos @AtomicFalco uuh, this should go without saying, but we should probably add some form of flavor events/event that notifies and introduces the player to the Crisis

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 04:21 PM

Don't worry there will be flavour, yeah

The actual events will be run by ZZZ while flavour events will pop for the player

I just want the entire house build, before we paint the walls

Original message was deleted.

Oveja 27-Feb-21 04:34 PM

Pinned a message.

Oveja 27-Feb-21 08:31 PM

@Fetti (Lil Break) I'm handling the peace on_actions btw

Just haven't pushed them

Will have ready by tomorrow

Fetti (Lil Break) 27-Feb-21 09:11 PM

Gotcha

Tomorrow I'll be a bit busier but I'll at least to tweak the second outcome of the WAC

Also I know it's proxy wars and all but will it get a super event?

Walker Of Chaos 28-Feb-21 02:36 AM

@Oveja Yeah I’m planning for plenty of flavor

who? (break) 28-Feb-21 02:38 AM

@Walker Of Chaos me when the two aircav divisions gets sent to africa again

while we're at it can we make CAR collapse a proxy war

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 04:41 AM

Would be USA be able to join the fray? Probs not

Fetti (Lil Break) Would be USA be able to join the fray? Probs not

trebeckey 28-Feb-21 04:47 AM

iirc westmoreland can try to reconquer the rest of car

leave behind effectively pliant vassal states if he succeeds (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 28-Feb-21 04:48 AM

Unless @AtomicFalco wants to weigh in otherwise I don’t think the CAR collapse works as a proxy war

The US already has forces there

They’re the CAR

Plowix 28-Feb-21 04:50 AM

Japan could support the rebels

AtomicFalco 28-Feb-21 04:56 AM

I think it works as well, or at least not while the US are present. I'd say when the US decolonizes Africa, there might be room for conflicts between the US backed governments, and Japense backed rebels.

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 05:38 AM

I have a formal complain about West Africa development

Everytime me and Oveja have to work with the country tag for Guinea we lose our goddamn minds

9

10

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 06:55 AM

@AtomicFalco Sorry for the ping but who's Keita

AtomicFalco 28-Feb-21 06:55 AM

The starting leader of Mali, who can both be AuthDem and Soc : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modibo_Ke%C3%AFta_(1915-1977)

ModiboKe%C3%AFta(1915-1977)

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 06:56 AM

Ah, gotcha, Mali

thanks

OPAsian 28-Feb-21 06:56 AM

please can we kill SUS tag

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 06:57 AM

No

frick off

it's great

So, on the pro cameroon GBE path

Do I change the ideology of Mali to Soc?

Oh i do it's on the notes

I'm blind man

Oh boy here i go making another tag

South China Confederate (break) 28-Feb-21 06:59 AM

sus

Oveja 28-Feb-21 07:01 AM

amogus

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-breaking-bad-sus-heisenberg-among-us-gif-19724947

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 07:17 AM

@AtomicFalco Sorry again for the ping, but is the Ghana civil war similar to the Sokoto that the socialists are guaranteed to win, or does the general war flares as the civil war in Ghana happens?

there's no dates there so i'm kinda confused

I take it 1966?

Like sokoto

Bamba 28-Feb-21 07:23 AM

@Walker Of Chaos Are we doing a Research rework/expansion in the end?

Bamba 28-Feb-21 07:30 AM

Becuase the Industry and engineering tabs are kinda outdated

and a tab for Nuclear stuff would be neat (edited)

Eternal Iberian 28-Feb-21 07:31 AM

not having to click on 5 billion reasearches would be nice

it gets really tiring when you have to constantly keep finding new shit to research

OPAsian 28-Feb-21 07:32 AM

also buffs are either super miniscule or downright broken in case of electronics vs industry (edited)

Walker Of Chaos 28-Feb-21 08:06 AM

@Bamba @OPAsian Most likely. I was anxious at first but with the rate at which the econ part has been done I think research is doable

OPAsian 28-Feb-21 08:08 AM

Fetti (Lil Break) @AtomicFalco Sorry again for the ping, but is the Ghana civil war similar to the Sokoto that the socialists are guaranteed to win, or does the general war flares as the civil war in Ghana happens?

AtomicFalco 28-Feb-21 08:11 AM

The civil war is a response to the alliance with the FFR (edited)

So late 64, early 65 (edited)

And let's say that both sides should have a chance, just to make the proxy war happen less often

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 08:20 AM

gotcha, gotcha

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 09:23 AM

@AtomicFalco Would Liberia be involved in any of the WAC crisis outcomes?

Fillmore, Lord Goring 28-Feb-21 09:26 AM

Could be used as the US’ access point to the region?

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 09:27 AM

In all outcomes it doesn't join the war so unless it's guaran-

Hm.

Hmm.

@AtomicFalco Should a trigger for Liberia also get in the war be set?

AtomicFalco 28-Feb-21 09:29 AM

Liberia is a complicated place, and I don't think they would involve themselves into the war

It's not really in the OFN, but it's courting them

But Liberia is also openly trading with Italy and the Pakt

So I guess for the sake of business they would like to stay neutral

Maybe the US could pressure them into joining

Fillmore, Lord Goring 28-Feb-21 09:33 AM

To clarify when I said it could be the US’ access point I didn’t necessarily mean they’d fight, they could just be used to supply weapons and supplies to OFN backed nations

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 09:36 AM

I'm thinking of a decision maybe to pressure Liberia

And adds a value, and once that value reaches a certain point

Liberia either does a half hearted help

Joins the fight

Or reinforces they won't do it

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 09:45 AM

Also can we add a city here

So that the CPP doesn't get immediatly bodied by FFR

AtomicFalco 28-Feb-21 09:58 AM

We could add Tamale

Here

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 10:00 AM

Never added a city myself want me to do that or we can tweak that for later?

AtomicFalco 28-Feb-21 10:01 AM

If you want to do it well sure, but it's not a pressing matter atm

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 10:05 AM

Hmm, I wanna get the Indonesian thing done so I'll put a pin for now

Bamba and a tab for Nuclear stuff would be neat (edited)

Flaxbeard 28-Feb-21 10:23 AM

Lamounier has already spitballed a nuclear tech tree I think

jesusツ - UwU 28-Feb-21 06:15 PM

fix your decisions smh

Oveja 28-Feb-21 06:57 PM

@Fetti (Lil Break) You're handling the Right path right?

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 06:58 PM

I already finished

Oveja 28-Feb-21 06:58 PM

I was busy today but I'll try to get the peace on_actions thru

Aight

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 07:25 PM

@Walker Of Chaos @Oveja I wanna take tomorrow as a break from TT work to get to some university projects I'm really behind

Oveja 28-Feb-21 07:26 PM

Yeah don't worry, you've done a great deal of work

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 07:26 PM

Could do more

But yeah it's just

delivery it's at 3 of march and I don't got much

So tomrorow I wanna no life it and maybe after tomorrow if it still ain't done

Oveja 28-Feb-21 07:34 PM

Don't worry, irl takes priority

I can handle stuff if you need me to

Fetti (Lil Break) 28-Feb-21 07:51 PM

I appreciate but you got enough on your plate

I'll finish the Indonesia tree port when I'm gucci with the project (edited)