General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[Billy Budd]

AghanBlue is completely incorrect lmao, you have no understanding of the state of trans healthcare research. On the topic of GAS, look at this meta analysis of almost 8000 patients of whom only 77 were regretful of their surgery. Research into trans people has been going on for decades, its more broad but look at this policy statement from the APA. I have selected a quote:

Otherwise, the other user who replied to me should understand that forums posts do not equal evidence.

This is a thread about doctors performing genital altering, and in many demonstrated instances, mutilating surgeries on minors and the mentally ill. You‘ve posted a vague statement on gender fee fees and on cursory glance what looks like the academic equivalent of “googling it”. What exactly were you trying to accomplish by coming here?

 

[Imperial Priorities]

This is a thread about doctors performing genital altering, and in many demonstrated instances, mutilating surgeries on minors and the mentally ill. You‘ve posted a vague statement on gender fee fees and on cursory glance what looks like the academic equivalent of “googling it”. What exactly were you trying to accomplish by coming here?

Weak sauce, jump in and try to change the topic about my motivations. I'm not posting about gender feelings, you guys are posting about surgery feelings. The reason I came here was, like I said in my first reply, that I felt like getting into this discussion, because I felt like your guys' arguments are gut reaction emotional pleas instead of anything based in reality. SRS, GRS, GAS, whatever you want to call it, is good, and I think this thread exists to deny that fact. I'm here because I think it's fun to talk about this with intellectual cowards, people who refuse to make any real points and back off at any resistance.

I also think it's very disingenous for you to throw away my sources because you think they're too easily accessibly. And by "very disingenuous" I mean fucking stupid.

 

[Kosher Dill]

On the topic of GAS, look at this meta analysis of almost 8000 patients of whom only 77 were regretful of their surgery.

This is junk science. If you actually look at the papers that went into the meta-analysis, they're typically based on follow-up surveys with something like a 50-60% response rate. What the "regret rate" is really counting there is people who are still alive, and are still reachable, and still want to talk to doctors about their experience, and regret it, and are willing to say so. There is good reason to believe the self-selected survey responders are not a representative sample.

 

[Howslans]

I feel like getting into it, and I'm so lazy I've pretty much only skimmed this shit because 5 thousand replies are more than I want to read rn. My real point is that you guys are really harping on the bit about mutilation and butchery, but this is all feeling. Where are the numbers? When I look into it SRS/GRS/GAS has overwhelming positive patient satisfaction. Why get muddled in how yucky surgery is when it has the desired outcome? This feels akin to rejecting chemo because it causes terrible side effects.

Srs surgery has something like a 80% or 90% complication rates, and no studies if long term implications.

The reason you only see glowing reviews is because if they dare complain publicly about how one surgeon fucked up, that surgeon will likely refuse to perform further/revision surgeries, and being in that very few to no respectable surgeons go into this specialty, their pool for possible surgeons willing to take them on is tiny.

 

[Chapper]

This feels akin to rejecting chemo because it causes terrible side effects.

Cool analogy, but we don't let people get chemotherapy as an elective procedure to live out a sexual fetish. And the side effects of chemo are mild relative to the *intended* effects of SRS.

Where are the numbers? When I look into it SRS/GRS/GAS has overwhelming positive patient satisfaction. Why get muddled in how yucky surgery is when it has the desired outcome?

Nobody should put any stock in social science research about trans issues. Troon ideology has a stranglehold on university departments and nothing will be published that contradicts it, at least in the English-speaking world.

But even if it's true that most SRS patients report satisfaction, who cares? There are countless examples in this thread of delusional people who are on their fourth revision, are incontinent, lost the ability to orgasm, half of their neodick has rotted off etc. and will still be like "still so worth it!!!" If you undergo the type of irreversible mutilation that SRS entails, you really have no choice but to cope. A sober assessment of what you voluntarily did to your own genitals will probably lead to a disillusionment with your entire transition on top of debilitating depression. It's not surprising that many decide to just up their dose of copium instead.

 

[Imperial Priorities]

In that tumblr belonging to the FTM who had 33 surgeries and an oleostomy bag for years someone asks them why they are now suing Dr Crane when they had formerly said positive things about him. The FTM says that there is enormous pressure on people with botched surgeries to be positive about their surgery experience, because they believe that the surgeons are the only ones who can fix their rotting crotch wounds and they are desperate to not step out of line and get ghosted. Like there might only be one “gender affirmation” surgeon who takes their insurance in the whole state, and maybe even other SRS surgeons won’t touch the mess the first surgeon made. Quite possibly some of the more ghoulish surgeons actively get off on stringing them along on this powertrip.

Lol look at the dates of most of those studies. You can't compare studies that are mostly from the 1990s, 2000s and early 2010s when this stuff only exploded in the last 5 years or so. Trannies were formerly screened and monitored for years before they were able to get surgery, and they weren't doing it to minors. Now they're lopping tits off 13 year olds.

Not to mention the explosion in lucrative surgery opportunities has meant that a bunch of money-hungry butchers with mediocre skills have entered the game, when it was formerly done by experienced specialists.



Why don't you sit down and have a think about how easy it is to get anything negative related to trans surgery or hormonal outcomes funded or published these days. Look at what happened to Lisa Littman and ask how many research scientists want to dive into the fray and go through the same shit. It's easier to just look the other way and let the butchers do their work.

I know you think you are diving in to enlighten the evil Kiwifarms bigots about trannies, but we are not the bad guys here, unless you think that talking about people on the internet does more harm than making a tidy profit cutting the wombs out of autistic teenagers with psychiatric problems.

Okay cool, retard doesn't actually have any evidence that being GAS is bad then? You just assume that the bad trans lobby is hurting kids because they are performing these procedures.

I am uninterested in anecdotes about bad outcomes, I am uninterested in vague finger pointing towards some conspiracy. Make a fucking claim, and provide some evidence for it. This is childish, it is always wild to me how confidently you people believe your own bullshit. You don't give a shit that you had to retract from the prior claim AfghanBlue made about there being no evidence of the outcomes of GAS, or that this is a new procedure. No, you swing right into your next talking point about how this analysis should've only focused on one group of trans patients, IE you think it should have been asking a different question.

You also try to get into some bs about methodology, but I really don't give a shit what you people think because the shit you people think is nonsense. This is a peer reviewed study published in Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery—Global Open. You people don't know how to control better than they do, you don't know how to design a study or interpret the data. One of you morons was even posting that you can, for some reason, discount this based on them being self reported follow up studies. As if there was another way to obtain satisfaction data.

Furthermore, you can publish whatever the fuck you want. You might even get it mentioned by the BBC! Look at this study they mention. This is a study that consistently misgenders trans women, calls passing inherently a deceptive act, and favorably includes a quote about "all trans women raping cis womens bodies". Whatever you want to say about the validity of that, if you want to publish an anti trans paper nobody is going to stop you. This notion of some transpiracy is unfounded.

And as one last thing, do you guys really believe the fetish angle? What other fetish has such poor health outcomes for those who are unable to partake in it? What other fetish has the endorsement of most major medical organizations? What other fetish makes children significantly more likely to be threatened or injured with a weapon at school? Do you guys even really believe that or is it just an easy answer to a question that challenges you?

 

[Chapper]

Every seething troon apologist who stumbles in here takes the exact same tact.

"Look at this study I haven't read"

"Look at this medical organization I've never heard of who put a press release saying they support trans rights!"

These ridiculous appeals to authority don't work when tranny janny powermods spam reddit threads with it, why the fuck you do think it would work here? It's like a Communist party functionary trying to persuade Soviet dissidents by telling them that actually every major organization of economists in the USSR has endorsed Marxian economics.

 

[Billy Budd]

Weak sauce, jump in and try to change the topic about my motivations.

My very first sentence was meant as a kindly reminder as to the subject matter of the thread. Just because you're too thick to infer this doesn't mean I am changing the topic, quite the opposite really.

The reason I came here was, like I said in my first reply, that I felt like getting into this discussion, because I felt like your guys' arguments are gut reaction emotional pleas instead of anything based in reality.

This thread very meticulously documents real world surgery results. The evidence speaks for itself.

I'm here because I think it's fun to talk about this with intellectual cowards, people who refuse to make any real points and back off at any resistance.

No one is "backing off", troon. I considered your half-baked "arguments" and rejected them.

I also think it's very disingenous for you to throw away my sources because you think they're too easily accessibly. And by "very disingenuous" I mean fucking stupid.

I threw the APA "source" away because it was in no way germaine to the thread or even to your own pathetic attempt at argument. The second "academic" study is prima facie flawed for numerous reasons that are evident from an even cursory glance. See: behindyourightnow's responses.

In sum, borrowing the words of Rusty Cole - If you get the chance, you should kill yourself.

 

[Iron Jaguar]

When I look into it SRS/GRS/GAS has overwhelming positive patient satisfaction.

Lol. As if trannies aren't by definition, pathological liars.

I don't believe you are genuinely seeking answers, by the way. I think you are a Trans Activist. Your questions seem reasonable but your constant demands for (and rejection of) "evidence" are a giveaway. Sealioning and Moving Goalposts are characteristic of the type.

 

[GloriousScarf]

Okay cool, retard doesn't actually have any evidence that being GAS is bad then? You just assume that the bad trans lobby is hurting kids because they are performing these procedures.

I am uninterested in anecdotes about bad outcomes, I am uninterested in vague finger pointing towards some conspiracy. Make a fucking claim, and provide some evidence for it. This is childish, it is always wild to me how confidently you people believe your own bullshit. You don't give a shit that you had to retract from the prior claim AfghanBlue made about there being no evidence of the outcomes of GAS, or that this is a new procedure. No, you swing right into your next talking point about how this analysis should've only focused on one group of trans patients, IE you think it should have been asking a different question.

You also try to get into some bs about methodology, but I really don't give a shit what you people think because the shit you people think is nonsense. This is a peer reviewed study published in Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery—Global Open. You people don't know how to control better than they do, you don't know how to design a study or interpret the data. One of you morons was even posting that you can, for some reason, discount this based on them being self reported follow up studies. As if there was another way to obtain satisfaction data.

Furthermore, you can publish whatever the fuck you want. You might even get it mentioned by the BBC! Look at this study they mention. This is a study that consistently misgenders trans women, calls passing inherently a deceptive act, and favorably includes a quote about "all trans women raping cis womens bodies". Whatever you want to say about the validity of that, if you want to publish an anti trans paper nobody is going to stop you. This notion of some transpiracy is unfounded.

And as one last thing, do you guys really believe the fetish angle? What other fetish has such poor health outcomes for those who are unable to partake in it? What other fetish has the endorsement of most major medical organizations? What other fetish makes children significantly more likely to be threatened or injured with a weapon at school? Do you guys even really believe that or is it just an easy answer to a question that challenges you?

Blessed morning to you.

Just wanted to pop in and let you know you will never be able to change sex and people laugh at you behind your back. Cope harder. Happy Xmas!

 

[Large]

You also try to get into some bs about methodology, but I really don't give a shit what you people think because the shit you people think is nonsense. This is a peer reviewed study published in Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery—Global Open. You people don't know how to control better than they do, you don't know how to design a study or interpret the data. One of you morons was even posting that you can, for some reason, discount this based on them being self reported follow up studies. As if there was another way to obtain satisfaction data.

Yeah man noone ever publishes garbage, checking methodology is paranoid and pointless. The "Replication crisis" was made up by the methodological terrorism industry to sell more meth.
And there is absolutely no way to measure mental health improvement without using subjective data.

 

[LonesomeDud]

I feel like getting into it, and I'm so lazy I've pretty much only skimmed this shit because 5 thousand replies are more than I want to read rn. My real point is that you guys are really harping on the bit about mutilation and butchery, but this is all feeling. Where are the numbers? When I look into it SRS/GRS/GAS has overwhelming positive patient satisfaction. Why get muddled in how yucky surgery is when it has the desired outcome? This feels akin to rejecting chemo because it causes terrible side effects.

Hey, friend. Here's a study that might help you. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

It's incredibly taboo to discuss certain elements of it, but you're cutting nerves and healthy tissue to make a poor approximation of the genitals someone thinks would be most congruent with their self-concept. Putting skin that should be outside on the inside of your body is opening your body up to infections, and nowhere on the body does radically different use of tissue yield great results. Even a simple skin graft can cause issues.

An atypical sex life without high levels of physical discomfort is better than a lot of physical pain and effectively no sex life.

That said, if you want to have this surgery, do what you like, but I highly recommend you look at all sides of it before you take a bridge you can't uncross. The surgeons want your money. I want you to live a good life. You get one body. Be good to it.

 

[Imperial Priorities]

Srs surgery has something like a 80% or 90% complication rates, and no studies if long term implications.

The reason you only see glowing reviews is because if they dare complain publicly about how one surgeon fucked up, that surgeon will likely refuse to perform further/revision surgeries, and being in that very few to no respectable surgeons go into this specialty, their pool for possible surgeons willing to take them on is tiny.

Do you really believe this? You think us trannies are so irrational that if we get fucked up by a surgeon we'll sit by so they can do more surgeries? Fuck no! We would want to protect our trans siblings from similarly poor experiences. I have no idea where this notion that we're all out here carrying water for corrupt plastic surgeons comes from.

Every seething troon apologist who stumbles in here takes the exact tact.

"Look at this study I haven't read"

"Look at this medical organization I've heard of who put a press release saying they support trans rights!"

These ridiculous appeals to authority don't work when tranny janny power mods spam reddit threads with it, why the fuck you do think it would work here? It's like a Communist party functionary trying to persuade Soviet dissidents by telling them that actually every major organization of economists in the USSR has endorsed Marxian economics.

That's a fun way to avoid the substance of my arguments, just pretend I linked studies with no further context. My web browser, the program I use to access the internet, was made by Mozilla, and is called Firefox. It allows me to, get this, bookmark pages I have previously viewed. So what I did is, having this be an actual part of my life and not just a debate token to talk about online, I looked into the validity of being trans. It turns out, most medical institutions, including the ones your doctor is part of, encourage transition and gender affirmative care. These aren't press releases. I link you a study in a journal and care guidelines for psychiatrists put out by the APA. These are not inconsequential bits of propaganda like you make them out to be. Nor are these appeals to authority. I am not saying look at the big smart science boys - they agree with me so I'm right! I'm saying look at the big smart science boys - they agree with me and the reason they agree with me is the culmination of decades of research. You just don't know what you're talking about you hit me with buzzwords.

And for Mr Budd's dogshit response, I have little to say. You say nobody is backing off, but it's a bit unfortunate because you posted that afterbehindyourightnow cowardly ducked out. People are in fact backing off. You throw away my arguments, but you don't say why. This is rhetorically nothing, not even weak. You just assume you're right. Which is fine, but why should anyone listen to you? And my sources, good lord. How is an APA source saying that transgender and GNC people are legitimate in their self-identified gender relevant? Well, if you can't figure out why I would want to be establishing that claim, even after I open with "Research into trans people has been going on for decades, its more broad but", well then buddy I can't help you. Behindyourightnow clearly didn't know what the fuck he was talking about, and I think it's funny you'd source him as your only defense for your claims about my second article being obviously flawed. This is the guy who thinks theres some conspiracy of trans people, who make up less than a percent of the population and are a significant power minority, to control all of western academia. Either way, please elaborate on your methodological complaints with that study, which was peer reviewed and published Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery—Global Open. Tell me what you know better than the researchers, and then email them your complaints.

Lol. As if trannies aren't by definition, pathological liars.

I don't believe you are genuinely seeking answers, by the way. I think you are a Trans Activist. Your questions seem reasonable but your constant demands for (and rejection of) "evidence" are a giveaway. Sealioning and Moving Goalposts are characteristic of the type.

Unlike your logical compatriots, who have yet to cite any sources or acknowledge any of the research that shows GRS to be beneficial. But I'll clear the air: I am transgender, these are my rights we're talking about. And now you clear the air: what claims have I moved the goalpost on or backed away from, and what evidence have I denied?

Anyways, even if you refuse to see me as reasonable lets go back for a second. Your doctors are probably part of the institutions that support gender affirmation and transition. This is not some loony lib position. The AMA, APA, and AAP represent a significant portion of their respective fields.

Blessed morning to you.

Just wanted to pop in and let you know you will never be able to change sex and people laugh at you behind your back. Cope harder. Happy Xmas!

Weak, I've heard worse from teenagers.

Yeah man noone ever publishes garbage, checking methodology is paranoid and pointless. The "Replication crisis" was made up by the methodological terrorism industry to sell more meth.
And there is absolutely no way to measure mental health improvement without using subjective data.

You know what, you did a good job answering a separate question, that is "Can we measure mental health improvement without subjective data" = but that wasn't what I was asking. I was saying that if you want patient regret rates then you have to ask patients whether or not they regret the surgery. But, that all said, you linked an interesting study, the conclusion portion of which opens with "In this first total population study of transgender individuals with a gender incongruence diagnosis, the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and reduced likelihood of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them." This is an interesting study to bring up, and the question of whether or not health outcomes can be measured objectively is valuable. However, that is not what I was talking about, nor was it what the person I was responding to was talking about.

Anyways, make a claim you pussy. Stop limp-dickedly pointing towards the idea of bad science and make a fucking argument. You don't just get to dismiss any paper you dislike like on the basis that "The replication crisis exists". If you think this study is garbage say so and say why. Pusssyyyyyyyyboyeeee

Hey, friend. Here's a study that might help you. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

It's incredibly taboo to discuss certain elements of it, but you're cutting nerves and healthy tissue to make a poor approximation of the genitals someone thinks would be most congruent with their self-concept. Putting skin that should be outside on the inside of your body is opening your body up to infections, and nowhere on the body does radically different use of tissue yield great results. Even a simple skin graft can cause issues.

An atypical sex life without high levels of physical discomfort is better than a lot of physical pain and effectively no sex life.

That said, if you want to have this surgery, do what you like, but I highly recommend you look at all sides of it before you take a bridge you can't uncross. The surgeons want your money. I want you to live a good life. You get one body. Be good to it.

Last one before I got to bed, because this one is my favorite. Let's see what the author of your study had to say about it in an interview:

Dhejne: People who misuse the study always omit the fact that the study clearly states that it is not an evaluation of gender dysphoria treatment. If we look at the literature, we find that several recent studies conclude that WPATH Standards of Care compliant treatment decrease gender dysphoria and improves mental health.

It's a good interview, I recommend you guys give it a read. Fun insight into some statistical analysis and the right wing media nonsense sphere that constantly works to drum up hate about trans people.

If you care about trans people and our healthcare don't get your information from kiwifarms lol. Get information about trans people from trans people.

 

[Iron Jaguar]

One of you morons was even posting that you can, for some reason, discount this based on them being self reported follow up studies. As if there was another way to obtain satisfaction data.

Imagine pretending not to understand that this is precisely why satisfaction data surveys amongst mentally ill, narcissistic liars are complete nonsense.

I am transgender, these are my rights we're talking about.
No you aren't. And what you demand as rights are in fact self-centred wants.

Your doctors are probably part of the institutions that support gender affirmation and transition. This is not some loony lib position. The AMA, APA, and AAP represent a significant portion of their respective fields.
There are a couple of different ways I can approach this:
1) Those fields were long ago infiltrated and taken over by perverts and liars. Appeal To Authority, somewhat ironically, holds no authority here.
2) Phrenology used to be taken seriously, too. Not that long ago, phlogiston was accepted by nearly all educated men as being the crucial element in fire. I believe a certain Workers' Party held strong views on certain subjects, backed up by the science of the day.

If you care about trans people and our healthcare...
I don't. I want you all dead. At your own hands. Not in Minecraft.

 

[Imperial Priorities]

I mean I managed to derail this entire thread and now you're just patting each others backs. Who is coping with what here lmao

 

[GloriousScarf]

Get information about trans people from trans people.

Get healthcare info from people mentally ill enough to think they can change sex. Capital idea mate.

Sounds like the loose marbles talking.

 

[SouthernBitchBob]

I'm perfectly happy to update my opinions on troons and autogyne/androphilia. I'll just need to meet one who doesn't trip every instinctive, visceral CRAZY. CRAZY. CRAZY alarm. Or barring that, one that doesn't behave like a horny skinwalker. Step right up, mythical stable tranny.

 

[Gar For Archer]

Can we move all this shit to the tranny spergout thread? I’m here for gross surgery pics, not tranny sperging.

 

[Gilkore]

I am uninterested in anecdotes about bad outcomes,

Wrong thread, faggot. Go back to Reddit with your "dEbAtE mE!" essays about how exploded meat crotches and cope = troons living their best lives. "Hurr learn about trans people from trans people" *gestures to entire thread*

 

[Null]

I mean I managed to derail this entire thread and now you're just patting each others backs. Who is coping with what here lmao

You'll be dead soon and this thread will still be going strong.