Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

My "grey Jedi" opinions mostly come from the whole Je'daii Order thing, the precursor to the actual Jedi. They'd kick your ass to the moon that best fit your sins if you went either full light or full dark, and only after 10,000 years did the light side cult gain dominance.
It's funny that you mention that, because I just finished reading Dawn of the Jedi a short while ago (I've refrained drumming up the effort to write any new coverage posts, given the shaky and uncertain air lingering over this site as of late), and there seemed to be an underlying idea that the Jed'aii Order, in their pursuit of literal balance between usage of the Light and the Dark Side, employed exiling unbalanced individuals to the Moon of Bogan because they simply wanted to run away from the problem. When the Jed'aii banish Xesh to the moon of Bogan, they're not painted as being in the right for doing so; the young apprentices who found Xesh loudly protest against this move, saying they should solve the problem of Xesh's Dark Side indoctrination rather than simply exile him to the moon and hope the problem solves itself. This misguided tactic on the Jed'aii's part literally explodes in their face when the other Dark Sided exile marooned there, Daegon Lok, takes Xesh under his wing and starts to groom him in a very proto Rule of Two relationship, in which they feed off each other's knowledge and power parasitically. The narrative established by the writers literally paint this as an inevitable outcome of the Jed'aii just banishing their problems away in their feverish obsession to retain the balance on Tython.

And while Dawn of the Jedi's final story arc was rushed to completion (another casualty of the 2014 Canon Purge, sadly), we also are shown that the while Jed'aii make a point of allowing minor Dark Side dabbling, they fear using Dark Side abilities like Force Lightning--something that the Masters admonish Se'knos for using to impress some female apprentices, since it relies wholly on "giving oneself to Bogan", and tapping solely on the Dark Side. It doesn't help when the proper war against the Rakata begins, and both Daegon Lok's influence and the widespread utilization of Force Sabers (which require excessive Dark Side use just to activate) sees the Jed'aii ranks using the Dark Side more and more carelessly, with masters constantly commenting on how all this liberal Dark Side use is turning the Order into something it isn't.

Due to the series' lack of completion, we don't know what transpires to create the splinter faction of Dark Jedi who eventually flee to Korriban and start that whole shindig, but the comic seems to strongly imply that these events--and the Jed'aii's willingness to let Dark Side influence permeate their ranks to such a degree--spun that defection into existence.

So I don't think the point of Dawn of the Jedi was ever to paint the Jed'aii as some kind of lost, perfect variant of the Jedi Order that "had it all figured out" when it came to balance, and embodied a way of life that could've prevented the failures of future Jedi iterations. If anything, Ostrander and Duursema seem to depict the Jed'aii as cracked in their foundations, first with their flawed pursuit of "balance" which ends up creating problems like Daegon Lok, as well as their liberal incorporation of the Dark Side into their behavior as the war goes on.

The Jed'aii are never depicted as the perfected variant of the Order...not with the way the series magnifies their blunders, how intrinsically different those blunders are from the Jedi of the future.


I don't subscribe to the notion that the dark side is a cancer because of that; it's a natural part of the force. The cancer is the excess, either expressed through turning into a cenobite (the dark side, this sort of cancer is quick and easy) or through sinking into stasis and timidity (the light side, this one usually takes time to metastasize).
Well, that's just it: the emotions and impulses are associated with the Dark Side aren't inherently a bad thing...nor are the abilities or powers associated with it, if employed tactfully. It's whether or not the Jedi can trust themselves to, as you eloquently put it, indulge in it as a part of themselves without becoming an "excess." Most Jedi can't, which is why these impulses are either regulated, or outright forbidden by certain iterations of the Order. Because while the Dark Side of the Force is natural, drawing from it excessively can make it harder to slip back with your identity intact. Most talented Jedi can't walk back from using an excess of Dark Side powers...much less master the wisdom to draw on it to the same frequency as notable exceptions like Quinlan Vos and Kyle Katarn. Most trip and fall in...or, as disastrous incidents like Ulic-Quel Droma's exploits in Tales or Luke Skywalker's in Dark Empire showcase, overconfidently believe they have the restraint and composure to walk both sides.

It's not that it's impossible, just extremely difficult and often unlikely, given how prolonged gestation in the Dark Side turns you into something you're not.

Dark Nest shows a version of the Jedi Order where the entirety of its participants are using Dark Side abilities willy-nilly, and are growing comfortable using them casually alongside Light Side ones....very much like how the Jed'aii do by the end of the Dawn comics. The difference is that Luke Skywalker realizes quickly that the Order will collapse if it stays on this trajectory, and that not even most of the Jedi can really trust themselves to excessively use the Dark Side without pulling themselves back. For this reason, he ultimately abandons Vergere's teachings that were so effective against the Yuuzhan Vong but prove disastrous for long-term use, and reforms the Jedi with a proper council and regulation of Dark Side use.

If there are instances where Jedi are trusted to do Dark Side things or walk that path, it's often because they're trusted to make the shift back, or otherwise not be corrupted:
  • Quinlan Vos was permitted to walk both paths because he'd demonstrated to the Council he could re-emerge uncorrupted when most Jedi couldn't--and was given specific missions that no other Jedi could be trusted with as a result.
  • Kyle Katarn, freely used powers from both due to not just his own personal philosophy, but because he was gifted with the restraint to not let either ability corrupt him...which is why he was so suited to be the Jedi Order's Battlemaster
  • Jaina Solo in particular had demonstrated such profound efficiency in engaging in cold and uncompromising battle scenarios without being corrupted, that she was assigned to essentially carry out all assassination and black ops missions that would surely corrupt any other Jedi, even Luke Skywalker himself...but she could be trusted to pull off without ever turning dark. Essentially allowing the Jedi Order to operate without turning overly militant like the PT Jedi, by saddling all morally-complex assignments to an unshakable oak of a person, an unwavering tool they could trust to refrain from ever breaking. A "Sword of the Jedi", if you will.
But these are isolated as such wild exceptions in their respective eras, because that's exactly what they are: exceptions. They're not the norm. The willpower and restraint to dabble in the Dark Side is not something that's found in every Jedi, because the Jedi are still, at the end of the day, living beings that are even more vulnerable to emotional urges than regular people, and saddled with more dire consequences for turning.

It's why specimen like Jaina and Vos are considered so awe-inspiring in-universe, and are afforded so much more lenience and admiration than the average Jedi...they're doing what the rest of the Jedi can't.


Like yeah, I don't like Episode 2 for example; intentionally wooden acting still makes you intentionally awful, which I find more offensive tbh. But that doesn't mean the cheap piece of shit show starring a worse Kyle Katarn after we know he dies is any better than it actually is too.
I think whatever faults Attack of the Clones has as a film, the one leg up it has over most Disney Drivel is just how much it adds to the Star Wars universe at large.

There is an endless amount of creativity on display in that film, from the new species like Kaminoans to Geonosians, to little technological advancements like Jango's Seismic Charges, to the ensemble of beasts seen at the Geonosis Arena, and the jaw-dropping breadth of new ship and vehicular designs seen in a battle fought on a scope that, let's face it, Star Wars fans hadn't seen before. Whether you love or hate the film, it gave the universe enough iconography and concepts to feed off of through multimedia projects for years to come.

Shows like Andor can't even reproduce existing concepts or iconography from the OT Era without fucking them up.

Especially since Disney has a reverse midas touch with the franchise and will fuck it up inevitably.
Speaking of which...

Jakku, Hosnian Prime, and Operation Cinder were all namedropped in Andor, and narrative threads to set up the Empire's laughably-inept downfall in canon (where they're defeated within a single year thanks to Aftermath and Dicefront II's horrenous worldbuilding), as well as the New Republic's yeeting in TFA, are being woven in.

Just in case the Doomcocks of the world were still clinging to that copium about "the shows distancing themselves from the Sequels"...the prequel series set before A New Hope is already setting the Sequel Trilogy up.

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Now that we are all free to congregate here again... I will say Andor is OK. Yes, it only seems ok when compared to the other trash we have gotten but it does hold my interest. I do think the episode length is too short when so much of the episode is character building dialog. I appreciate the mostly competent dialog and English dry humor. I also dont really mind the female and colored Imperials as it can be believed these individuals existed in the background of the military and were not on the front line or high status Navy positions. The characters all mostly appear to be believable inhabitants of the Star Wars galaxy.

Im not ready to give any awards but it is definitely something different from what we have seen previously with this group . We will see when the first Filoni character shows up though.
 
The dark side isn't emotion, it's the lack of restraint, it's losing the need to consider your actions based on a simple mindless feeling. It's lacking the will to say 'no' and losing yourself in something that has no logic because it's easier to justify. Anger isn't the dark side, spite is. Love isn't the dark sides, obsession is. Fear isn't the dark side, despair is. To even use dark side abilities, you need to harness intense desires until they're as toxic and destructive as the damage you want to dish out. You have to submerge yourself in that toxic mental state.
 
Andor is so good. its filmed like a drama, ive never really seen this in a star wars show or movie.
i really think itll set the bar for Space Opera as a genre in these dark times of politically activist writers and creative stagnation.




what i am thoroughly enjoying about this show is its focus on character interaction. i dont have that feeling of, "oh here is this character here is their brief background, protagonist and character meet brief conflict and solve it together, the two stick together until the next conflict until the end." also there is no cringeworthy comedy like the lady who talks to the lizard alien in mandalorian.
its so well spoken and i find myself loving every character i meet so far.
Diego Luna is freaking amazing tbh, Cassian is one of the most likeable and interesting characters that has been produced in the new star wars age imo.

 
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Andor is so good. its filmed like a drama, ive never really seen this in a star wars show or movie.
i really think itll set the bar for Space Opera as a genre in these dark times of politically activist writers and creative stagnation.


Sounds like another Battlestar Galactica remake. Meh.
 
@Mississippi Motorboater

I didn't mean to imply that the Jed'aii were perfect, though I realize it came across that way. It's more that they prove that the dark side itself is a part of the force, and supports my opinion that the force doesn't have a light or a dark side, just the force. There are dark and light users. To summarize my post, in theory a lightsider can use more dark side associated abilities, but also in theory communism works. In practice, it takes such a collection of special circumstances that unless you go full monastic you're just not going to get good results. I agree with you, just not to the fullest extent.

In other news, I finished the Callista trilogy yesterday, and I'm happy to say that it holds up much better than Champions of the Force. As much as I like to use Darksaber as a non-Crystal Star example of silly excess in the EU, it's a fun book to read. I still like the books on either side of it better, though. I get that Hambly's prose isn't for everyone, but I really like how she writes things, especially her depiction of the dead hub world in Planet of Twilight.
 
Let me guess, you think George's wife (her name's Marcia btw) edited the entire movie by herself?
man I'm pretty tired so it's good that I don't really have to be here for this since it'll just play out in your head either way

The dark side isn't emotion, it's the lack of restraint, it's losing the need to consider your actions based on a simple mindless feeling. It's lacking the will to say 'no' and losing yourself in something that has no logic because it's easier to justify. Anger isn't the dark side, spite is. Love isn't the dark sides, obsession is. Fear isn't the dark side, despair is. To even use dark side abilities, you need to harness intense desires until they're as toxic and destructive as the damage you want to dish out. You have to submerge yourself in that toxic mental state.
It's just Jedi schizophrenia. If 90% of your religion is rocking back and forth saying "don't listen to the voices" what do they think's gonna happen. Imagine showing up to laser sword kindergarten and then every ten minutes for the rest of your life there's always some other motherfucker in a robe saying "you just lost the game huh didja".
 
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@Mississippi Motorboater

I didn't mean to imply that the Jed'aii were perfect, though I realize it came across that way. It's more that they prove that the dark side itself is a part of the force, and supports my opinion that the force doesn't have a light or a dark side, just the force. There are dark and light users. To summarize my post, in theory a lightsider can use more dark side associated abilities, but also in theory communism works. In practice, it takes such a collection of special circumstances that unless you go full monastic you're just not going to get good results. I agree with you, just not to the fullest extent.

In other news, I finished the Callista trilogy yesterday, and I'm happy to say that it holds up much better than Champions of the Force. As much as I like to use Darksaber as a non-Crystal Star example of silly excess in the EU, it's a fun book to read. I still like the books on either side of it better, though. I get that Hambly's prose isn't for everyone, but I really like how she writes things, especially her depiction of the dead hub world in Planet of Twilight.
The best version of the Jedi I'd say would be the NJO. They recognize that the Light is good and the Dark is poisonous, (LOL just look at Dark Siders who let it consume them) but they let their people use both. The old Jedi feared the Dark Side and that's what made it hard for them to master it without forsaking the Light, when in reality, the Light is the perfect tool to help you remain in control while using the Dark Side, to prevent it from consuming you and turning you into a walking, talking corpse.
 
In other news, I finished the Callista trilogy yesterday, and I'm happy to say that it holds up much better than Champions of the Force. As much as I like to use Darksaber as a non-Crystal Star example of silly excess in the EU, it's a fun book to read. I still like the books on either side of it better, though. I get that Hambly's prose isn't for everyone, but I really like how she writes things, especially her depiction of the dead hub world in Planet of Twilight.
Not gonna lie, I've been thinking about reading the Callista Trilogy for a while, and I'm coming around on the idea more and more....largely because I love the way that later writers like Aaron Allston and Troy Denning dug up Callista as an old, tragic wound from Luke Skywalker's past coming back to haunt and stab his heart. I found that super-compelling, the same way I found Lumiya's return really interesting.

Stuff like that almost guarantees I'll be reading both Callista and the old Marvel comics at some point. They may have not aged well in a lot of areas, and I hear highly questionable things about both, but the way the EU would bolster the importance and narrative weight of concepts from both makes me want to read them.
 
It's just Jedi schizophrenia. If 90% of your religion is rocking back and forth saying "don't listen to the voices" what do they think's gonna happen. Imagine showing up to laser sword kindergarten and then every ten minutes for the rest of your life there's always some other motherfucker in a robe saying "you just lost the game huh didja".
That’s not Jedi schizophrenia, that’s Lucas’s blending of Eastern and Western religious concepts. It’s the yin yang, karmic balance mixed with Abrahamic law to deter sinful behavior.
 
So when did you guys all decide that actually Lucas is a good director? I must have missed that meeting.

Lucas is a good director. He understands how to set up a shot, and use visuals. He also knows how to set up a theme and deliver on it.

But my man cannot write dialogue to save his goddamn life.
 
But my man cannot write dialogue to save his goddamn life.
He's even described himself as "The King of Wooden Dialogue", so he's aware of it at the very least.

Funny thing is, I have vivid memories of quoting Revenge of the Sith with friends at school, because we thought that the film had an endless supply of cool lines like "My powers have doubled since we last met" and "You Fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts by COUNT DOOKU".

So that script must've done something right. Or maybe we were just complete dorks at school...both are entirely possible.
 
For better or worse, something that Lucas' dialogue really managed to be was memorable. This is getting out of hand, I hate sand, the high ground, Darth Plagueis the Wise - there's more genuine, non-forced memes in the prequels than in any other film series I know, and that probably contributed a lot to keeping Star Wars alive in the popular consciousness until Disney took a meatgrinder to the golden goose.
 
He's even described himself as "The King of Wooden Dialogue", so he's aware of it at the very least.

Funny thing is, I have vivid memories of quoting Revenge of the Sith with friends at school, because we thought that the film had an endless supply of cool lines like "My powers have doubled since we last met" and "You Fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts by COUNT DOOKU".

So that script must've done something right. Or maybe we were just complete dorks at school...both are entirely possible.

Lucas can get memorable lines into his scripts, they are just surrounded by so much mind-numbing drivel it is hard to ferret them out. I mean in ANH in the draft Tarkin still says "Now? In our moment of triumph?" in response to asking if they should get the escape shuttle ready; there was just like 3 paragraphs of other words around it and Cushing in his slippers was able to get it boiled down to just the essentials.
 
Lucas is a good director. He understands how to set up a shot, and use visuals. He also knows how to set up a theme and deliver on it.

But my man cannot write dialogue to save his goddamn life.
Lucas is a better world-builder than he is a dialogue-writer. Which is why the world of the Prequels felt so rich and lived-in, but the dialogue got a bit stiff at times. Then again, people said something similar about Tolkien when Lord of the Rings first came out:

Judith Shulevitz of The New York Times stated that “Tolkien formulated a high-minded belief in the importance of his mission as a literary preservationist, which turns out to be death to literature itself.”

Richard Jenkyns of The New Republic called Tolkien's work “Anemic and lacking in fiber.”


Nevertheless, Tolkien's books became more popular with time, a pattern that is now repeating with the Prequels. Thanks to a generation raised with the 2008 Clone Wars cartoon as well as a steady diet of Prequel Memes, the Prequels are now held up to the same standard that the OT had back in its heyday.

Nowadays, you will get in trouble with modern nerd circles if you talk shit about the Prequels. Back then, you get in trouble if you defended the Prequels. Time has a funny way of changing things. Like how back then, talking shit about LOTR was not that uncommon, but nowadays, it's considered literary blasphemy to besmirch Tolkien's work.
 
Wasn't there an idea to make Star Wars set in the future in this galaxy, but Lucas changed his mind and went with the past far away?

What if that idea was used, and in the Star Wars universe, Earth eventually became Coruscant millennia from what's the present IRL?
 
Wasn't there an idea to make Star Wars set in the future in this galaxy, but Lucas changed his mind and went with the past far away?

What if that idea was used, and in the Star Wars universe, Earth eventually became Coruscant millennia from what's the present IRL?

You'd have to throw the Earth into the inner rim and also add a few moons and planets for that to happen.
 
Wasn't there an idea to make Star Wars set in the future in this galaxy, but Lucas changed his mind and went with the past far away?
That was George's original plan based on the earliest drafts before A New Hope, yes.
What if that idea was used, and in the Star Wars universe, Earth eventually became Coruscant millennia from what's the present IRL?
The early not-tatooine (then called Utapau) in some versions would've probably been earth in the far future (which I guess is where KOTOR got the idea from) and the Death Star would've been orbiting it, and George also intended Palpatine (then called Cos Dashit and Son Hhat among other names) to be a Nixon-esque allegory who in one version became a monstrous tyrant and in another was simply a simple non-Force using politician who got to where he is through lies and was usurped by his own military.
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Coruscant wasn't a thing yet in a sense since at the time it went under different names or no name, but it was mainly called Alderaan or "the capital" but I wouldn't be surprised if at one point George would make the capital/alderaan the future version of Earth had he stuck with his original idea. Also since Corellia was also joked or bragged about as being the human homeworld in some stories and that Corellia is one of the first planets conceived by George, then I wouldn't be surprised if George may have also considered it a future earth candidate before dropping the idea.

If you're interested in a short but basic rundown of George's original script ideas given form into a workable script, I suggest you give Dark Horse's The Star Wars comic a read to get an idea of what George originally had in mind.
The art is a bit iffy at times and it mixes elements from several drafts and a bit of the movies to make it all work, but it gets the job done on showing us what might've been and it offers some interesting obscure details. Also seeing the early version of Luke Skywalker really makes it clear that he was kind of George's self-insert.
 
The talk about Tolkien and Grey Jedi makes me realize the biggest problem with modern storytelling is the either emotional or political refusal to have a clear good that isn't a blatant real world parallel.
It's the 13 year old idea that everything sucks so nothing is allowed to be called good, except for your mary sue who is allowed to say fuck you to every faction, and is above morality.
 
The talk about Tolkien and Grey Jedi makes me realize the biggest problem with modern storytelling is the either emotional or political refusal to have a clear good that isn't a blatant real world parallel.
It's the 13 year old idea that everything sucks so nothing is allowed to be called good, except for your mary sue who is allowed to say fuck you to every faction, and is above morality.
Basically.

It's pretty funny to see how many people want to bring real-world baggage and cynicism to an escapist fantasy. It's such an open window into how woefully unimaginative and lazy these people are.

This is fundamentally why I'm happy that this particular brand of Star Wars fanboys were never creatively in charge of the films or the EU during the pre-Disney days...because they often have the worst ideas on "how to fix Star Wars", when none of this shit needed fixing.
 
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