Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Snekposter]

Lider class nuclear-powered cruisers

You know what, considering how many nuclear disasters they have had with their supposed favored above all others of their submarine fleet, I am feeling an existential creeping dread at the mere possibility one of those gets built. Not because of what it will mean for NATO, but because its going to turn into a glowing-in-the-dark ecological disaster in about a month, assuming the reactor doesn't explode while undergoing testing in the dockyard before launch.

 

[teriyakiburns]

Raccoon and Beaver just wanna chill, mang.

 

[East_Clintwood]

Not because of what it will mean for NATO, but because its going to turn into a glowing-in-the-dark ecological disaster in about a month, assuming the reactor doesn't explode while undergoing testing in the dockyard before launch.

I don't know why you worry comrade, superior Russian shipyards are perfectly safe

 

[Ghostse]

I have to ask why Russia even tries to have a navy at this point. Vladivostok is smack dab in the middle of the Sea of Japan and the exits out would be mined and patrolled for subs 24/7. Even if Turkey decided to let the Black Sea Fleet out into the Med that's NATO's mare nostrum, and the Baltic Sea Fleet wouldn't be able to get past the Danish Straits even before Sweden joined on account of Denmark and Norway being founding members of NATO. Russia is fucked lubelessly when it comes to maritime matters. No such thing as freedom of the seas for them if the West decides otherwise. They don't even get to claim the Black Sea since in both WW2 and this one they've lost their fleets to nations without any.
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I'll give you one guess how well the Red Navy comported itself.

tl;dr: They need screeners for their nuke subs. And as @East_Clintwood posts, bragging rights.

I've 888'd on this before so I'll boil this down to the basics:
The US SSBNs are independent true-blue water subs. They can go anywhere, are incredibly stealthy, and can stay down for over a month at a time, and don't need to surface to launch payload. They are fucking spooky things for an opponent to have because they could be ANYWHERE and if they launch your only warning is contrails from missiles already heading for targets. And while its not their primary role, they are more than capable of using torpedos to be their own protection against ships or attack subs.

Russian SSBNs are not capable of independent blue water operations. They can operate in the open, ocean but require replenishment. They don't have the air recycling systems of US subs, and lack the ability to run silent for extented peroids. And except for their latest Delta subs, they also must surface to fire. Instead of spooky SURPRISE NUCLEAR BUTTSEX platforms they are more like mobile silos. Their torpedo loadout is laughable because they're always intended to be screened by attack subs and surface fleets.

Which while this sounds completely lulzy, do remember: You even if its just the area short-based anti-ship missles can protect in the Baltic, hunting one would be be trying to find a football field in the state of Rhode Island. Its effective, just no where near peer capabilities.

Because the alternative is to admit that you're not actually equal to US/NATO, and that is anathema to Russian machismo. That's why they continue to insist they're totally going to build a Shturm class CVN, or Lider class nuclear-powered cruisers despite the fact they haven't successfully designed and built a new surface combatant bigger than a frigate since the fall of the USSR.

You are completely 100% correct, howeverIn the interest of fairness: Other than Carriers/assault support ships and one "helicopter destroyer"(ITS NOT AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER GAWD) and Zumwalt prototypes, neither has anyone else.

 

[Clownish]

What is the tl;dr with this monastery business?

There are two Orthodox Churches in Ukraine. Both named Ukrainian Orthodox Church to make it confusing for normies. The largest in run by the Ukrainians and the small one is run by the Russians. In a new poll only about 4% of Orthodox Ukrainians follow the Russian Church.(Most switched churches when the war started. Even priests switched sides.)

However, because the Ukrainian government was full of Russophiles nothing was done about the Russian Church and they were allowed to lease out church buildings from the State. The Kyiv Pechersk Lavra is the most significant because it was built in the 11th century and is the foundation of the Orthodox faith going all the way back to the Rus. It has allowed the Russian Church to LARP as the TRUE and HONEST Orthodox faith.

Now the Ukrainian government has not renewed the Russian lease to the buildings and has asked them to return all the Orthodox artifacts and leave. The Russian priests are now seething and acting like squatters saying they will not leave.

Also the Ukrainian SBU have done raids of Russian Churches and have found Pro-Russian propaganda and child pornography. They even found a Russian priest sleeping with a choir boy when they raided a Church at night.

 

[Ghostse]

There are two Orthodox Churches in Ukraine. Both named Ukrainian Orthodox Church to make it confusing for normies. The largest in run by the Ukrainians and the small one is run by the Russians. In a new poll only about 4% of Orthodox Ukrainians follow the Russian Church.

However, because the Ukrainian government was full of Russophiles nothing was done about the Russian Church and they were allowed to lease out church buildings from the State. The Kyiv Pechersk Lavra is the most significant because it was built in the 11th century and is the foundation of the Orthodox faith going all the way back to the Rus. It has allowed the Russian Church to LARP as the TRUE and HONEST Orthodox faith.

Now the Ukrainian government has not renewed the Russian lease to the buildings and has asked them to return all the Orthodox artifacts and leave. The Russian priests are now seething and acting like squatters saying they will not leave.

Also the Ukrainian SBU have done raids of Russian Churches and have found Pro-Russian propaganda and child pornography. They even found a Russian priest sleeping with a choir boy when they raided a Church at night.

and IIRC in the early days of the war Special Military Operation, they found one of the ROC churches with tons of pictures of the near by military base as well as cellphone with calls to Russian intelligence.
Basically ROC Clergy are operating as Russian spies.

 

[East_Clintwood]

You are completely 100% correct, howeverIn the interest of fairness: Other than Carriers/assault support ships and one "helicopter destroyer"(ITS NOT AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER GAWD) and Zumwalt prototypes, neither has anyone else.

I mean several navies have built new Destroyer classes since the USSR fell, and since you're excluding Carriers and the like those are basically the biggest surface combatants you get these days. There's also the fact that unlike the Russians, none of the other navies are talking shit about how they're totes magotes gonna build super mega ships anyday now, which is my main point. The idea that a navy that hasn't built anything bigger than a 5400 ton frigate, and which built almost all of it's previous large combatants at yards it no longer owns, is suddenly going to manage to build 19,000 ton Liders, or a 90-100,000 ton Shturm is patently ridiculous.

 

[RodgerDodger]

Finland is now part of NATO, I am sure Russia is pretty happy about the news.
View attachment 4931878

I think its time for the US to make a few military bases near the Russian boarder.

 

[Ghostse]

I mean several navies have built new Destroyer classes since the USSR fell, and since you're excluding Carriers and the like those are basically the biggest surface combatants you get these days. There's also the fact that unlike the Russians, none of the other navies are talking shit about how they're totes magotes gonna build super mega ships anyday now, which is my main point. The idea that a navy that hasn't built anything bigger than a 5400 ton frigate, and which built almost all of it's previous large combatants at yards it no longer owns, is suddenly going to manage to build 19,000 ton Liders, or a 90-100,000 ton Shturm is patently ridiculous.

I exclude Carriers/'assault ships' because the ships themselves aren't the combatants, their cargo is. And the ships themselves are pretty fragile. (Also becuase if we're including carriers its just not fucking fair)

But yes, you have the main thrust, which is no one else besides Russia (or China) is sitting around jerking off about how great their navy will be once their Wundermarne launches and definitely lives up to the operational propaganda hype. Or having their useful idiots coping about how the world order will shift once their mighty navy prowls the seas before being sold to Pepsico

The US is ordering more Burkes - which don't get me wrong its the same hull but not the same ship from 1991, and also if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Soviet Russian actually fuck it, its still the same ships, Soviet Navy is and always had been a joke, be careful tarring them with the brush that fits most pretty much everyone else.

 

[Pork Packer]

So, regarding russia now sharing a very very very large border with NATO right next to all its most crucial shit, lets see how it is covered by russian state media....


Cant see it? Even with the red line round it? Allow me to zoom in at the literal bottom of the page....

Seems that the narrative is still being thrown together behind the scenes, or they are straight up going to ignore this

Also before you ask....no. No mention of bakhmut again.

 

[Snekposter]

The US is ordering more Burkes - which don't get me wrong its the same hull but not the same ship from 1991, and also if it ain't broke don't fix it.

To be fair the Burkes are fucking huge. There are treaty cruisers from the interwar period smaller and lighter than they are, and the latest Flight III pattern is as big as a Ticonderoga cruiser. They've also got 96 VLS tubes and can act as ballistic missile defense, and they have the ASW capability you'd expect from a destroyer.

Oh, and a 5" automatic gun up front because why the hell not.

 

[Kept Ya Waiting Huh]

The issue comes when the enemy knows you are using it

Well, over 55 thousand Redditors are now aware of this. Cat's kinda out of the bag now.

 

[Disheveled-Human]

So, regarding russia now sharing a very very very large border with NATO right next to all its most crucial shit, lets see how it is covered by russian state media....
View attachment 4936792

Cant see it? Even with the red line round it? Allow me to zoom in at the literal bottom of the page....
View attachment 4936800

Seems that the narrative is still being thrown together behind the scenes, or they are straight up going to ignore this

Also before you ask....no. No mention of bakhmut again.

Even in the Z thread they seem reluctant to discus the topic because it is quite a nasty blow to old Putler.

 

[mindlessobserver]

.Oh, and a 5" automatic gun up front because why the hell not.

If the movie "battleship" taught me anything, it's that space aliens can prepare for any piece of high tech weaponry, but they can't plan for analog in the form of primitive high explosive delivered at high velocity and aimed by sight.

 

[Battlefield2142EU]

Imagine being a Ukrainian soldier and finding out Americans and Western Europeans think about buying and wearing Ukraine-stamped underwear that somehow stick it to Putin. Does this mean a Chinese invasion of Taiwan will have loads of merchandise? Is Amazon plotting to profit off of future wars with crappy merchandise as we speak?

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

You are completely 100% correct, howeverIn the interest of fairness: Other than Carriers/assault support ships and one "helicopter destroyer"(ITS NOT AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER GAWD) and Zumwalt prototypes, neither has anyone else.

Destroyers have been built since the Cold War. And the reason nobody builds anything bigger is because we don't have to. The stuff available now is good enough to wreck any near-peer opponent. Russia quite simply can't build anything that big.

 

[Trig.Point]

Regarding the T55, here's an old Forgotten weapons Q&A with Nicholas Moran, where he says the T55 is just about the oldest MBT that could still play a role on the battlefield.

Russian SSBNs are not capable of independent blue water operations. They can operate in the open, ocean but require replenishment. They don't have the air recycling systems of US subs, and lack the ability to run silent for extented peroids. And except for their latest Delta subs, they also must surface to fire. Instead of spooky SURPRISE NUCLEAR BUTTSEX platforms they are more like mobile silos. Their torpedo loadout is laughable because they're always intended to be screened by attack subs and surface fleets.

The French had massive issues with the development of their 2nd generation SSBN's. From the hulls themselves to the M51 missiles. They were locked out of US and UK support so had to develop everything indigenously.

They were also fairly open about the problems they were having particularly with the M51's being launched while surfaced and the accuracy of the missiles themselves. They got them resolved eventually but it was extremely expensive, and they had to essentially recreate the development work of the US and UK.

People can laugh at the French but their defense and nuclear sectors are cutting edge. So I really wonder just how serviceable Russian SSN's are.

My thoughts too about the monitors, but I think that makes @Blatant hypocrite 's point more valid about that being insecure coms. I still wouldn't have let them get a pic of the screen because of all the shit you can glean from it. Or who knows, maybe that's secret Ukraine Command comms, its really hard to tell. Slavs gonna Slav after all.

The British army had this problem with their Radio system BOWMAN came into service, it was shit, and some of the vehicle mounts were actually dangerous. The army did the normal thing and insisted there was nothing wrong with it, then Iraq happened, so they just started giving out Nokias and various civvie radios.

After the spectre of 'corporate manslaughter' started to appear on the horizon, after the killing of the 6 RMP's, it became a rule in theater that you could not go out beyond the wire without another form of comms other than Bowman.

When soldiers lose confidence in kit that's it, no amount of 'education' will get it back.

 

[Fuck It We'll Do It Live]

One of the UOC priests being evicted from that monastery in Kyiv chimps out:
View attachment 4934090

Holy man right there.

(Russian) Orthodoxy is so heckin' trad and based, you guys!

Loling at how he resorted to a water fight like it's spring break.

 

[Ghostse]

To be fair the Burkes are fucking huge. There are treaty cruisers from the interwar period smaller and lighter than they are, and the latest Flight III pattern is as big as a Ticonderoga cruiser. They've also got 96 VLS tubes and can act as ballistic missile defense, and they have the ASW capability you'd expect from a destroyer.

Oh, and a 5" automatic gun up front because why the hell not.

Burkes are fine ships, and its gotten updates. I'm just saying if you're wanting to (rightfully) dab on the Russian navy, its a little disingenuous to laugh at the fact they've only made new frigates or smaller, given that pretty much everyone else maxes out at new Frigates.
I think the Japs are the only ones who have put new destroyers in the water.

Destroyers have been built since the Cold War. And the reason nobody builds anything bigger is because we don't have to. The stuff available now is good enough to wreck any near-peer opponent. Russia quite simply can't build anything that big.

That is the other half of it, which is thanks to guided missiles there isn't any need for big surface combatants anymore - the only reason you'd want something with big guns is cheap shore bombardment.

As CIWS becomes better, that may start to change but given the lack of ship-on-ship combat naval countermeasure progress has lagged.

People can laugh at the French but their defense and nuclear sectors are cutting edge. So I really wonder just how serviceable Russian SSN's are.

'Cutting edge' is pressing it. They are able to not be completely humiliated by the big boys is more accurate.
And France's defense output is always hampered by numbers & production. Their runs are very small and limited so the spare part market dries up quickly.

Up to the 80s they were doing a good business as the weapons dealer to the "unaligned", but ever since the soviet union disbanded, there's been less of a need for an alternative weapons dealer, especially when coldwar weapons still shoot and Pax Americana means there isn't a point to paying the premium in maintaining a best-in-class standing army.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

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Imagine being a Ukrainian soldier and finding out Americans and Western Europeans think about buying and wearing Ukraine-stamped underwear that somehow stick it to Putin. Does this mean a Chinese invasion of Taiwan will have loads of merchandise? Is Amazon plotting to profit off of future wars with crappy merchandise as we speak?

The placement of the first logo on the right is more of an insult to Ukraine than a show of solidarity.