Z-Morning Zoo/The Zoo; Morning show on Z-100
...'s indicate pauses or interruptions in statements
LOVE PHONES
Radio NYC 100.30 FM, Z-100
Monday, 14th March, 1994 11:01 PM
[Kayotae Blackwolf on the Air]
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ANNOUNCER; Serving the Universe, from the top of the Empire State
Building. You're on The Love Phones on Z-100, New York.
JAGGER; Talking about love, sex, relationships, whatever's on your
mind. If you're thinking about it, we'll talk about it with you.
Jagger with Dr. Judy, our clinical psychologist, certified sex
therapist and...Kay. What's up dude?
KAYOTAE; Hi Jagger, Hi Dr. Judy.
DR. JUDY; [somewhat blandly] Hi there.
KAYOTAE; Hi, well, umm, I'm calling tonight because I'm a
zoophilist. I...
JAGGER; A who?
KAYOTAE; A zoophilist. I...
DR. JUDY; A zoophilist. [mockingly] Is that somebody who loves
the zoo?
KAYOTAE; No...
JAGGER; The Z-Morning Zoo?
DR. JUDY; That's what I thought...Right...
KAYOTAE; [laughing] Well, I listen to The Zoo every morning...
DR. JUDY; Well, then you're a zoophilist!
KAYOTAE; Well...
DR. JUDY; We ought to tell, we gotta tell, O'Lander this. This is
a great phrase; the zoophilist. It goes in a little, the little
love...in the zoo dictionary [laughing].
JAGGER; I'm afraid it might have some other wacky meaning though.
KAYOTAE; Well, Kinsey had another meaning for it...
JAGGER; Which is what?
DR. JUDY; Oh, you mean you have zoophilia?
KAYOTAE; Yes, I'm a zoophiliac.
DR. JUDY; That's different...right...
ANNOUNCER; Will somebody tell me what the hell it means?
DR. JUDY; A...A zoophiliac...is somebody who has sexual attractions
to animals. Is that correct?
KAYOTAE; That's correct.
DR. JUDY; Or is it that you love to travel to zoos around the
country as I do?
KAYOTAE; Not really...
JAGGER; Well, see if I fit in the category here. Hang on, Kay...it
says, somebody just faxed this, I want to know, to tell you that I
love Love Phones. Jagger and I both have the same likings in that
we both like to watch the animals get it on.
KAYOTAE; Hey, well...
JAGGER; Now, is that the same thing or are you talking about
participating...?
DR. JUDY; Well, I like to go to the zoos to see the animals in
their natural habitat, you like to watch them hump...having sex...
JAGGER; [talking over Dr. Judy] ...them hump...there's nothing like
elephants and rhinos going at it...
DR. JUDY; [continuing] ...and he likes to do it with
them...[giggling]
KAYOTAE; Exactly...
JAGGER; Oh, ok, so, what...?
DR. JUDY; There's the progression for you! [laughing]
JAGGER; You're right...thank you for the fax, Debbie, by the
way...you just want to see the animals. I just want to see them
mate.
DR. JUDY; Actually though some of my favourite ones was the Blue
Balled Guenon in the St. Louis Zoo.
JAGGER; Blue Balled Guenon?
DR. JUDY; Guenon, it's G-U-E-N-O-N, it's a small monkey...
JAGGER; Okay...
DR. JUDY; It had totally black fur except these bright, royal blue,
scrotum.
JAGGER; Mine are like that frequently...for other reasons...
DR. JUDY; Only seen in St. Louis [laughing]
JAGGER; They're not on display though...so, uh, Kay, so uh, what's
the deal?
KAYOTAE; Well, the deal is that since I was twelve years old I've
had sexual relations to animals. It first started out as an
emotional attraction because I didn't feel very close to most
people, had a lot of family troubles...
JAGGER; Mmhm...
KAYOTAE; ...and so I started visiting my next door neighbours dog,
who was a Dalmation, when I was twelve years old, and I just
started playing with him when I was twelve years old, nothing
sexual, and uh, we got along real well, I really liked the dog and
then one day my baby sitter, who was a lot older than I was,
introduced me to masturbating. And so...
JAGGER; [doubtingly] Your baby sitter?
KAYOTAE; Yeah, he was about seventeen and I was twelve years old...
JAGGER; [undertone of surprise] Wow, so...how did that subject come
up?
KAYOTAE; [chuckling]
JAGGER; [proposing] Dude, do you jerk it? Well, let me show you
how.
KAYOTAE; Yeah, something along those lines. So...
JAGGER; So now, so anyway, you put the connection with the pets
then? With the masturbation?
KAYOTAE; Well, I started masturbating and so I figured 'So what
would it be like to masturbate with the help of the dog?' so the
dog would start to lick me while I was masturbating...
DR. JUDY; [Heavy sigh]
KAYOTAE; ...I would jump over the fence, my neighbours had a
stockade fence so nobody could see inside, and I would be with the
dog. Well, from there things progressed to where I was able to get
my own dog, who I was very sexually attracted to. I've had dogs
constantly since I was fifteen years old. I've been a professional
breeder and dog trainer. I'm a Certified Veterinary Technician...
JAGGER; Well, that'd be frightening. Me taking my dog to your vet.
KAYOTAE; [nervous laugh] Well, I don't believe in having sex with
other peoples animals...
JAGGER; [castigatingly] Oh, well, we do draw the line...
DR. JUDY; You do realize that could be abusive?
KAYOTAE; It could be abusive...
DR. JUDY; Right.
KAYOTAE; ...But the definition of zoophile includes loving animals.
You can't...
JAGGER; Well, every time I learn a new word I pull out my
Encyclopedia of Unusual Sex Practices. May I share with our
audience a little bit of this?
KAYOTAE; [sarcastically] Oh please ...
JAGGER; Zoophilia involves sex between humans and animals and
generally takes on more forms than sex between humans. Some of our
ancestors felt that sex with animals held a magic power and that
their Gods were able to create offspring by these sacred union...
KAYOTAE; MmHm...
JAGGER; That's kinda weird. [resuming reading from book]...It was
assumed throughout most of history that offspring could be produced
by these unions and many cultures prohibited the act for this
reason.
KAYOTAE; My background is from a culture, I'm American Indian,
where sex with animals was actually a ritualistic practice in some
tribes.
JAGGER; Well, it says here, regardless of the relationship of
religious or civil laws, some people have a preference for animal
sex partners. Kinsey reported that as many of 17% of boys raised
on farms have had at least one sexual encounter with an animal.
The percentage of zoophilia in the general population is 8% for
males and 3% for females.
KAYOTAE; Yeah, uhh, although...
JAGGER; Mexican border towns were once famous for their donkey
shows. A prostitute would allow a donkey to penetrate her vagina
while on stage and a red ribbon was then placed on the donkeys'
penis marking the length that she was able to take in...Jeez...
KAYOTAE; I went to see one of those in Tijuana once...
JAGGER; [excitedly] Oh, you did?!
KAYOTAE; Yeah...
JAGGER; [biting my head off] I'm sure you enjoyed it.
KAYOTAE; [replying with frustration] I definitely did.
JAGGER; [resuming quoting] Now the act of zoophilia usually
involves a person manually masturbating the animal, having mouth to
genital, uhh, penis to anus or penis to vagina contact...
KAYOTAE; Mmhm...
JAGGER; The animals used are generally dogs, horses, donkeys, cows,
deer, sheep, pigs, gerbils, snakes, turkeys, chickens, and geese.
Snails or insects are used for sensory enhac...enhancement in
either masturbation or bondage games...
[Animal sounds in background]
[Animal sounds get louder]
JAGGER; You sporting a woody yet?
[Laughing in background]
JAGGER; We got them all going for ya now...
KAYOTAE; [chuckling uneasily]
DR. JUDY; Old McDonald had a farm, huh?
JAGGER; Oh jeez...
DR. JUDY; But I'm a little concerned about you becoming a...a
'Vetinarians' Assistant. Is that what you're doing?
KAYOTAE; Right now I am a Certified Veterinary Technician.
DR. JUDY; What does that mean?
KAYOTAE; Basically, what I do is assist doctors in giving
treatments...
DR. JUDY; If the doctors knew that you were assisting them giving
treatments to the animals that you're really sexually being turned
on by, do you think that they would be happy about hiring you as
their assistant?
KAYOTAE; Well, I'm sure a number of them would find it morally
reprehensible.
DR. JUDY; Right...right...
JAGGER; How about this? Pseudo-zoophilia. You ever hear of this?
KAYOTAE; No, I haven't.
JAGGER; Uh, let's see, it's where uhh, it refers to sexual fantasy
games where one partner plays the roll of an animal. For example,
the Roman Emperor Niro would play a game where he dressed in skins
from wild animals and uh, then attack the genitals of people who
had been bound at stakes.
KAYOTAE; Ouch...
DR. JUDY; [Laughing]
KAYOTAE; Well, never did that and...
JAGGER; [Interrupting] His morals are so weird...it's broken down
into all these different categories and it just gets more amazing
as you read. Okay...all right, Kay...
DR. JUDY; So you know that they would be, that you know it, in, in
a certain way you're putting yourself in this situation that is
simply encouraging your philia...
[John Cleese Recording Played: Are you totally deranged?]
KAYOTAE; [Laughs]
DR. JUDY; ...For you to call yourself a zoophiliac what is having
a philia mean?
KAYOTAE; Philia is Greek for love...
DR. JUDY; No, a philia means that you are unable to develop a
relationship with a human being and that instead you have an
attachment, an obsessive and a compulsive attachment, to a
behaviour or some thing as a substitute for a real human
relationship that involves love so that's what the philia is.
You're treating it as if, something that's not a problem. Is that
it? I mean, you don't feel like you have a problem?
KAYOTAE; No. To me I don't recognize that I have a neurotic
problem or that I have a psychotic problem. I have a perfectly
healthy, umm, albeit that some people would not consider it healthy
because it is a homosexual relationship, with another male who is
a zoophilia, who is a zoophiliac as well. I have several friends
of mine who are not zoophiliacs who accept me for being one.
DR. JUDY; Right, but you started out saying, Kay, that you didn't
get along with people...
KAYOTAE; No...
DR. JUDY; [cutting me off] ...and that you retreated to animals
because you couldn't deal with people. That's what you said.
KAYOTAE; Exactly but...
DR. JUDY; Even though you may be rationalizing it now, that's the
way you also said it.
KAYOTAE; Well, that's true. I won't discount what I have said but
without animals I wouldn't be where I am today.
DR. JUDY; Why is that?
KAYOTAE; Because without them I would have killed myself a long
time ago.
DR. JUDY; Uh huh...
KAYOTAE; I had a family that really did not seem to care, to me.
DR. JUDY; Right, well, I'm...I'm sorry to hear that but could there
not have been some, could there not have been some surrogate people
in your life that you could have put there instead of animals? I
mean, it is true that research shows that some people do get very
attached to animals who, 79% in one study could, felt they could be
more open to their pets than they could to another human being but
that has something to do with the people also who you pick in your
life.
JAGGER; Yeah, but doesn't this also prove that he's coming from a
distorted point of reality? Because he shut out the humans,
because they were so horrible or whatever and went to the dog or
whatever else it was?
DR. JUDY; Right, and that certainly can be true if people are so
horrible to you then certainly animals don't, except for some Pit
Bulls and, you know, some other kinds don't, or you know if you
have lions as pets, they may turn on you but, you know, cats and
other kinds of house pets don't turn on you, they don't talk back
to you, they're totally loving. You project all your feelings and
needs onto them, you create a tremendous trust. All those things
are totally realistic but when you step over the line and say that,
say, you know, that they've saved your life in the terms to the
exclusion of people...
KAYOTAE; Well...
DR. JUDY; ...You know, you can argue that, you know, older peoples'
blood pressure goes down, they live longer, umm, kids who have
disabilities get healthier and relate to other human beings better
when they are able to trust an animal, kids who have disabilities,
when they're taught how to horseback ride and develop a
relationship with the horse then can develop stronger self esteem
but then they don't have sex with the animals...
JAGGER; How about necrobestialism? Or whatever that is. That
refers to those people who are sexually aroused by having sex with
dead animals...
KAYOTAE; No no no no no...at this point in time, I have an active
social life. I have many friends who are human...
JAGGER; Do you do felching?
KAYOTAE; Felching? Ummm...
JAGGER; Inserting a live animal into the anus?
KAYOTAE; No, umm, and actually the A.M.A. has no records of...
JAGGER; Oh, A.M.A...
KAYOTAE; ...incidents of felching ever occurred.
JAGGER; Well, who's gonna admit to something like that?
KAYOTAE; Well, if you have a Gerbil stuck up your hind-end you're
probably going to end up in the Emergency Room...
JAGGER; Well, you don't get it stuck up there, well...[shouting]
Why are we even arguing abut this for God's Sake!
[Laughing]
DR. JUDY; What are you trying to say, Kay? Why did you call?
KAYOTAE; Well, umm, a couple weeks ago I remember you received a
fax here somebody had said they had allowed their dog to lick their
penis while masturbating and Jagger totally discounted it. Now, I
know how I felt when I realized that my sexual practices with
animals were beyond the socially accepted norm...
DR. JUDY; [tired] MmHm
KAYOTAE; ...I felt dejected, I felt alone, I felt like the only
person in the world who would do this and if I didn't have an
animal there, I would have bene suicidal. Just as if a homosexual
person would feel that they are dirty, or bad, or that they were
doing something against God, if they believed in that religion,
then...
JAGGER; Boy, you're doing wonders for the Gay Crusade, that's for
sure. You keep comparing yourself with animals to gay people.
KAYOTAE; Well, I'm a homosexual as well. It's the truth. I'm a
homosexual with humans. Not every homosexual is a bestialist. If
somebody is going to make that generalization, well, then they're
a bigot.
DR. JUDY; But so the point is that there's no question that many
people have all kinds of fantasies or do all kinds of behaviours,
worry about being the only one. So now you know you're not the
only one, in fact Jagger read you the Kinsey statistics that eight
percent of men having had that kind of experience and up to three
percent of women. So you know you're not the only one. That
doesn't mean that it's still constructive for you. People do a lot
of things to, as in experimentation, out of curiosity, some people
do things out of a real distorted and dysfunctional background and
dysfunction at the time. Now you even said, this was dysfunctional
for you. It's dysfunctional for you to be suicidal and think you
were saved by, thank goodness, your relationship to animals. Now
no wonder you would be attached, attached to them then but you know
whether or not you have a relationship now, I would propose that
there is something still that is not enough and not connected
enough to you and your love partner, umm, that you are obsessed
still with something else. I also worry for you that you
perpetuate this by choosing the job that you do and that it is then
not healthy for you to be, day after day, involved in a job with
this very subterfuged, umm, kind of sexual attraction to what
you're doing at the same time that, when you acknowledge that the
doctors, you said, would find it morally reprehensible, if the
knew of that and yet you put yourself in that position. I think in
a way that that compromises your own personal integrity.
KAYOTAE; I don't have sexual relations with other peoples' animals.
I don't feel...
[Groans in the background
JAGGER; You do have standards?
KAYOTAE; Yes.
JAGGER; ...He has standards...
DR. JUDY; But you're even putting yourself in that situation to be
stimulated that way with your fantasies and with everything else
whether or not you act that out.
KAYOTAE; I can fulfill my fantasies at home.
JAGGER; What is it you do with your dog?
KAYOTAE; I allow my male dog to mount me for anal intercourse and
have had vaginal sex with a bitch in heat...
VOICE FROM STUDIO; I feel sorry for that poor dog...
JAGGER; Ohhhh boy...
DR. JUDY; So are you calling because you wanted to tell that guy
that he was ok? What is it you really wanted to accomplish?
KAYOTAE; What I wanted to accomplish was to let other zoos know who
might be listening to your radio show that they're not the only
zoos out there because they may not know of the Kinsey statistics
and although you have said what I do is wrong I continue to believe
that it's something that's right. I wanted to talk with you about
your opinions on zoophilia so that maybe when someone does send you
something like that or calls about something like that then...
DR. JUDY; Well, I did never use the word wrong, you'll remember.
I'm just pointing out what the issues are for you and what the
significance might be for you and what the significance might be
for you in terms of your, your development of this behaviour and
the perpetuation of this. I did not...you're the one who is
imposing the right and wrong kind of value judgement about that but
there are definite issues for you to examine and that's what I
would hope you would do.
KAYOTAE; Well, I'm sorry for imposing that judgement on you but...
JAGGER; Good bye, Kay...
[Click]
JAGGER; Boy, he's really sick...
