Megathread SRS and GRS surgeons and associated horrors - the medical community of experimental surgeons, the secret community of home butchers

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Basically what I'm saying is even if humanity somehow did pull all of that* off to make real seahorse dads, I think we'd be standing on the bodies of a ton of dead men and women, children too, in ways we'll wish were just a horror story.
Humanity won't. No body that's not female -- the real kind -- will ever, ever be able to sustain pregnancy, no matter what organs or hormones or magical incantations are applied.

An appalling thought but frankly, the only way it could work would be for a man's brain to be transplanted into a female body.
 
Let me piss on the parade again, since I only mentioned it as an aside itt:

A surgeon willing to do the surgery

transplanting a uterus, cervix, surrounding ligamentous tissues, blood vessels, and vaginal cuff from either a living or deceased donor at a minimum

Preventing all of the above from rejecting

An egg donor and a way for sperm to meet egg

C section for delivering
All these have already been checked off by butchers - they only did it between women so far but it's actually getting there.
Of course they don't deliver via birth canal in these pregnancies - that would be the troon dreamboat which will likely never happen.
BUT the woman in the study never developed an uterine tract, except for a shallow vaginal opening.
That was a great write up.
Trannies will unironically read this and say we just need to apply more science and less bigotry like we're making a cake and refusing to put the right color icing they want on it, but my honest thought after reading posts like these is that it's a complete fantasy, something you can write about but if you tried to pull it off in reality you would only get a grotesque parody.
It was a great write up. And yes, the process is very grotesque and nothing is natural about it.

If we get really autistic about it, this:
Your pituitary and hormone systems need to work in balance with the growing pregnancy to ensure that it all works.
, might actually prevent men from getting the transplants. But I really wouldn't be - once again - too sure about that either because the woman in the study has this:
When she was 15, Jovanovich learned from her doctor that she had Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser (MRKH) Syndrome, a congenital disorder in which women are born without a uterus. Women with the condition suffer from Uterine Factor Infertility (UFI), a previously irreversible form of female infertility that affects as many as 5 percent of reproductive-aged women worldwide. A person with UFI cannot carry a pregnancy either because she was born without a uterus, like Jovanovich, or had the organ removed for medical reasons
Theres often even more missing, like the vaginal cuff... not to speak of the ensuing endocrine defects.

So, in closing, let me say:

You May Live to See Man-Made Horrors Beyond Your Comprehension

...or: You vill be meat lego and YOU vill be happy!
 
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Theres often even more missing, like the vaginal cuff... not to speak of the ensuing endocrine defects.
An MRKH patient is still female, and has female ‘general’ biology. Her brain is female, her endocrine system is female and her body is female.they have normal ovaries, almost always both, very occasionally one, the ovary develops from different structures than the uterus. MRKH is basically mullarian agenesis.
She just has a bit missing. In that circumstance you can ‘replace the bit’ becasue you’re replacing what was lost or missed out. with a male, it’s plugging a uterus into a system that has none of the support structures or capacity to interact with it - about all you can do is get a decent blood supply but everything else is g compatible.
 
@~nogger~ : I do feel there’s going to be a push for it and I can’t def say no, it’ll never happen. Not going to deny at least a small part of the science is there already but as explained for several reasons by a bunch of us, a lot of the necessary elements are going to be missing even if uterine transplants in cis women are happening.

Cis women getting these transplants are one thing. Doing it in a trans body is completely different. You can’t compare the two, yet.

And just because the transplant is performed doesn’t mean it works out long term. Also after uterine transplants, graft hysterectomies are performed on all recipients once the pregnancy is complete.

If you don’t believe me, listens to John Hopkins:

Will the uterus remain implanted after pregnancy and the baby is born?​

The uterus will be removed after child-bearing is complete.


eta: I do think this is an interesting discussion and worth having, no matter how horrifying and Frankenstein-ish it seems.
 
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This is it, you guys... we finally have photographic evidence of what the "split hot dog phalloplasty" looks like in close-up hi-res pictures!

View attachment 6199766



Some highlighted quotes:



Yeah, good job on fucking up every single anatomical area of your pelvis.



Yeah, I'm sure scrubbing the necrotic burst hotdog is going to help with it smelling like death.



I guess the "smells really terrible" is just that remaining 40% developing a lil' neccy, nothing to worry about, at all!


(If someone ninjas me on this monstrosity, I'll be mad)!


HOLYFUCKINGSWEETJESUSCHRIST

How does she sound so casual about THAT on her body?? She must be high on drugs. Oh it smells bad? No fucking shit you crazy bitch
 
It was quite some time ago (2-3 years?) that I read a Reddit post from a troon who said that his stinkditch was partially made from donated cadaver tissue. From a woman. He was quite giddy about that. Who knows if he was lying? But I immediately decided that I did not want any part of my body benefitting some troon. So I changed my organ donor status with my DMV. (Where I am you register your organ donor status with the DMV and a symbol is put on your driver's license so ERs know they can start butchering and doling your parts out as soon as you flat line on the table.)

It's a shame that I did that. I liked the idea of helping someone out with my unneeded parts after I was dead. But it was simply a Yes or No situation. No if/thens. And with the Troon Menace gaining ground out there, I decided No. No way were any of my spare parts going into a troon. No skin, chunk of colon, retinas, kidney, whatever. No way.

Having something written in a will might do the trick, but will whoever gets your parts abide by your wishes later when they take them out of the deep freeze? "Hey, look! Check it out! Here's a terf's colon! Let's use that for Kitty LaRue's vaginoplasty!"

Yeah. No.
I thought I hated women but then I see the modern troon and I'm like... uh... you okay there buddy?
 
The temptation to pop a couple of Googly eyes on it must have been immense. Imagine the chuckles when they get the mirror out to dilate.
Would that be considered affirming & euphoric or personal transphobia??

Medihoney appears to be just overpriced manuka honey salve. Probably appropriate for some icky pus stuff on your arms, but no idea how that's supposed to help with open wounds in your genital region.
Don't these people ask their doctors about appropriate wound care before they got their surgeries? They spend so much time on social media talking with each other about this stuff, and then they act all surprised and shocked when complications happen to them. Maybe the anticipation to finally be "complete" is too strong to consider the very possible failure of these surgeries. (Not that there are any actual successful outcomes.)
Remember: they’re not allowed to tell the truth. Any negative experiences are told they’re lying, they were very unlucky, or that it wasn’t as bad as they made it seem. Some posters get outright banned for speaking their truth too… fucking sick.
Ironically, sugar and honey are really good in helping even really extreme wounds to heal and it’s used a lot in veterinary medicine, sugar pack wounds are a thing. Highly concentrated sugar removes moisture and kills bacteria in the area. I dont know why it isnt used in human medicine as much because it works wonders.
Treatment with sugar needs daily maintenance however and you need to change the bandages frequently which I don't expect from any pooner or troon.
Does the sugar dissolve? Or do you like have to rinse out the wound? Does it absorb into the blood & cause diabetics issues if the wound is deep enough? I’ve heard of manuka honey and was always skeptical as most evidence kind of suggested that the wound healed at a normal rate. One positive effect is that people pay attention to the wound and actually clean it and change dressings so that’s good.
Our man is, as he says, asexual, of course.
It's not like asexual community (and its men in particular) did not feel extremely autistic in first place and wasn't joking about the same boring cake meme all over again for years, but I guess an expected future influx of eunuchs whose balls and physical aspect of sexuality are gone for good, is not gonna improve it.
The real question is was he ‘asexual’ before he got the chop? Or is ‘I happily wank 17 times a day’ kind of asexual?
know troons are gross and treat "hygiene" like a tool of oppression
This makes me think he never cleans himself properly… you’d be able to feel something is wrong. Also hints at a lack of sensation, no pain? No itching from a potential wound or rash?
Why should the NHS pay to fix this
Wasn’t there some dentist thing where they were refusing to fix botched dental work that was done abroad?
The third category? Good, old fashioned, true and honest trolls
Tell them all how great your life is now you’re a bootiful t&h twanswommens and encourage them to cut off their dicks.
 
It depends on the country. In mine, recipients are allowed to write a single letter to the donor's family, and the letter is carefully scrutinised for identifying information before it's handed over. Live donation isn't common in my country either, when it does happen, it's intrafamilial.

The shit that goes on in the USA with body and organ donations is insanely dystopian, like pretty much everything else that goes on over there. Examine your local practices before you take yourself off of the donation register... there are a lot people in need, and personally, I think that taking out a troon on the way out is a good way to make it into Valhalla.
Idk there’s a certain romanticism to me about killing trannies from beyond the grave because they couldn’t help but try and get my organs grafted into their bodies. A fatal YWNBAW from their own immune system. Ah, Biology - without a doubt the most transphobic of the sciences, isn’t it.

I’ll stay on the donor registry. so long as my fam gets ashes to bury, and be reasonably assured that they are mine, I’m pretty chill about the rest.
 
I’ll stay on the donor registry. so long as my fam gets ashes to bury, and be reasonably assured that they are mine, I’m pretty chill about the rest.
Tbh over the years I've come to view corpses as basically meat that superficially resembles the individual that you once loved. Funerals, burial services etc are for the sake of the ones left behind; ultimately sentiment over a cadaver is self indulgence at best. There are many religions that prioritise the good condition of the body before burial and this strikes me as counter intuitive. Surely the more emphasis on cleansing the soul would lead to less attachment to the earthly vessel?

I've spent so much time studying human and animal anatomy, as well as things like ecology and waste management, and that combined with some medical things that have happened in my family has led me to view the deceased human body as any other deceased animal; it's good to make use of it if possible, if not, just dispose of it as pragmatically as you can.
A fragment of what you felt, of what you knew,
A formula, a phrase remains,—but the best is lost.
The answers quick and keen, the honest look, the laughter, the love,
They are gone.

The first body farm in my country was started a few years back; if my body isn't suitable for organ donation, that's the best place for my corpse. Rotting as is natural, giving back to science, and not costing my family pointless disposal fees.
 
Tbh over the years I've come to view corpses as basically meat that superficially resembles the individual that you once loved. Funerals, burial services etc are for the sake of the ones left behind; ultimately sentiment over a cadaver is self indulgence at best. There are many religions that prioritise the good condition of the body before burial and this strikes me as counter intuitive. Surely the more emphasis on cleansing the soul would lead to less attachment to the earthly vessel?

I've spent so much time studying human and animal anatomy, as well as things like ecology and waste management, and that combined with some medical things that have happened in my family has led me to view the deceased human body as any other deceased animal; it's good to make use of it if possible, if not, just dispose of it as pragmatically as you can.
A fragment of what you felt, of what you knew,
A formula, a phrase remains,—but the best is lost.
The answers quick and keen, the honest look, the laughter, the love,
They are gone.

The first body farm in my country was started a few years back; if my body isn't suitable for organ donation, that's the best place for my corpse. Rotting as is natural, giving back to science, and not costing my family pointless disposal fees.
That’s how medical examiners and coroners view people. They think of bodies as anatomical parts, not a human. If you think of the human part of it all, you wouldn’t last. It’s easy to detach yourself in that way tbh.

Which is also means troons will rot like the rest us so would it really be worth it to go through the SRS, hormones etc? Remember, these are not life saving, life extending surgeries. It isn’t little Timmy needs a new heart. It’s a “if I don’t get this surgery I’ll die!!” despite an inability to actually describe why an absence of SRS or HRT would cause the body to physically die.

Spoiler: it won’t. It’s just rhetoric and false ideology.
 
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Does the sugar dissolve? Or do you like have to rinse out the wound? Does it absorb into the blood & cause diabetics issues if the wound is deep enough? I’ve heard of manuka honey and was always skeptical as most evidence kind of suggested that the wound healed at a normal rate. One positive effect is that people pay attention to the wound and actually clean it and change dressings so that’s good.
You have to regularly change sugar or honey dressings, because when the fluids from the wound dilute the sugar enough it stops osmotically killing bacteria and starts being a great and welcoming community for bacteria to thrive. If you set it and forget it, it's marinade.
 
I went to check out if Lamprey Dick had posted any updates on her stage 2 rotdog, and it turns out her last post was 8 days ago even though she said in her horrifying video post that she'd go see the doctor on Friday (of last week) and post updates.

Lamprey_where.jpg


Did someone tell Lamprey she was being featured on the 'Farms, or has something more sinister happened?
 
An MRKH patient is still female, and has female ‘general’ biology. Her brain is female, her endocrine system is female and her body is female.they have normal ovaries, almost always both, very occasionally one, the ovary develops from different structures than the uterus. MRKH is basically mullarian agenesis.
She just has a bit missing. In that circumstance you can ‘replace the bit’ becasue you’re replacing what was lost or missed out. with a male, it’s plugging a uterus into a system that has none of the support structures or capacity to interact with it - about all you can do is get a decent blood supply but everything else is g compatible.
I was low key provoking that argument:
I said between women but that's technically an unscientific misrepresentation, MRKH people are actually intersex but they pass for women externally and even their karyotype is stealth (see what I'm doing here?). They all DO miss gonads because the müllerian ducts are absent (which is the tissue from which they would form). They still most often look like women, which is counterintuitive knowing this, right? That's because they never get any testosterone ever, not in utero and not in puberty, some sex characteristics, like body type(to a degree) and body hair develop because of the absence of T, not because of the persence of E - it's about developmental timing and gene expression, the absence of a Y chromosome is key here. Troons will summize this knowledge into the idiomatic phrase woman is le default mode of the human body. Klinefelter men for example are a case in which it's similar to that - again, sometimes, depending on what genes get activated and which don't which is influenced by the YXX anomaly in a wonky and irregular manner: many histroic troons had that syndrome which is why they look more curvy and facially androgenous, often with small moobs even but only throughout their teens mostly, if at all. Some men with that karyotype never look any different from average males at all but mostly all of them are infertile. Not so with MRKH parients, they all look like women, none have ovaries. A phenotypal klinefelter expression basically can lead to a severe pretty boy syndrome which is why some rare troons actually mention having that. -Kleinefelter is the only somewhat tangible troon condition, if we were to agree to such a thing at all. Now, is there a female brain or not?
I did make the concession to that argument because it also seems intuitive to me, a laymen, that there must me regulatory parts in the brain which are specifically designed to govern the gestation process but that being said withou being sure on that:
These persons with müllerian agenesis, broadly speaking, only have the same equipment a puperty blocked tranny has (maybe more woman specifitc stuff, maybe not - as eruated above). Just to pick a fight with you, I reject the karyotype argument. Only a phenotypical woman is a woman.

sauce:
Müllerian Agenesis
Müllerian agenesis, also known as Müllerian aplasia, vaginal agenesis, or Mayer–Rokitansky–Küster–Hauser syndrome (MRKH syndrome), is a congenital malformation characterized by a failure of the Müllerian ducts to develop, resulting in a missing uterus and variable degrees of vaginal hypoplasia of its upper portion. Müllerian agenesis (including absence of the uterus, cervix and/or vagina) is the cause in 15% of cases of primary amenorrhoea.[2] Because most of the vagina does not develop from the Müllerian duct, instead developing from the urogenital sinus, along with the bladder and urethra, it is present even when the Müllerian duct is completely absent. Because ovaries do not develop from the Müllerian ducts, affected people might have normal secondary sexual characteristics but are infertile due to the lack of a functional uterus. However, biological motherhood is possible through uterus transplantation or use of gestational surrogates.
Bonus head-fuckery:
XY with vaginas
It affects 1 in 20,000 to 64,000 XY (karyotypically male) births. The condition results in the partial or complete inability of cells to respond to androgens.[2] This unresponsiveness can impair or prevent the development of male genitals, as well as impairing or preventing the development of male secondary sexual characteristics at puberty. It does not significantly impair female genital or sexual development.[3][4] The insensitivity to androgens is therefore clinically significant only when it occurs in genetic males, (i.e. individuals with a Y-chromosome, or more specifically, an SRY gene).[5] Clinical phenotypes in these individuals range from a typical male habitus with mild spermatogenic defect or reduced secondary terminal hair, to a full female habitus, despite the presence of a Y-chromosome.
So, is a XY "male" with total insistivity an abhorrent troon stealing a dead woman's womp when he gets that transplant done? (He will have a woman's passport since birth...)
Will modern Industrial society attempt to even try to implant uteri into partially insisitive males with dongs?
When that works will they give bruce jenner one, too? Only time will tell.
I think all these people should be considered a third sex and be left alone. No frankenstein surgeries for no one imho.
A woman is a woman is a woman. I think we have to go with good ol' ted in the shed on this one and just stop engaging in all of this, it's all troonery, even is you think it's not because they say say we need to help these poor MRKH women (srs for XX women?! why yes, dear reader!).


TL;DR:
Many here seem to think Karyotype and Brain difference arguments are anti-troon talking points when they're actually the exact opposite. That's precisely why they harp on brain scan and gay gene studies which mostly come up with NOTHING (concrete and tangible at least and in so far). These are THE penultimate arguments for trooning MRKH women into uterus havers or trooning faggy acting klinefelter boys into trannys.
That we now see phenotypically intact grown ass olympians with intact reproductive systems who troon out is entirely disconnected from that.
By arguing with brain structure, you also would have to agree with trooning little boys who act like girls or little girls who act like boys because, obviously there IS something intersex about their brain but nobody can pinpoint exactly what so far - it's miniscule and mostly doesn't affect reproductive ability except for chosing incompatible mate in adulthood (laymen term: they're gay).
There's even weirder shit like total androgen insensitivity, meaning that you can be XY but also look like a MRKH woman.

Edited out some mistake about XXY women in the end of the first paragraph above, I wanted to mention turner syndrome but mistyped the karyotype - it's not important, so I dropped it.
 
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The aforementioned are still all medical conditions. Troonism is not. Troonism does not cause abnormal karyotyping.

AIS does increase the risk of testicular cancer due to the presence of the testis-specific protein Y-linked 1 (TSPY) gene as well as the Y chromosome. Other tumors associated are hamartomas, Sertoli cell adenomas and rarely Leydig-cell tumours, which are all benign but even so, do you want something growing in your body that’s not supposed to be there?

The risk of gonad cancer in AIS is 3.6% at 25 years and 33% at 50 years.

There are other medical issues that come with it as well. People with CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome ) are also prone to inguial hernias, or swelling of the labia, or absence of periods.

Turner syndrome only affects females. It’s like the female Noonan syndrome, and results in short stature and other medical issues. Turners is also usually almost alway de novo (random) much like DS

Genetics is my favorite so I do apologize if I piss anyone off and so on. Genetics is also very complicated. And AIS is rare, so.
 
for the record I believe it's impossible and everyone's already explained why
You're right, but it's also impossible to create a vagina from miscellaneous scraps of penis or colon. That insignificant detail certainly doesn't seem to be deterring anyone from trying.

Tbh over the years I've come to view corpses as basically meat that superficially resembles the individual that you once loved. Funerals, burial services etc are for the sake of the ones left behind; ultimately sentiment over a cadaver is self indulgence at best. There are many religions that prioritise the good condition of the body before burial and this strikes me as counter intuitive. Surely the more emphasis on cleansing the soul would lead to less attachment to the earthly vessel?

I've spent so much time studying human and animal anatomy, as well as things like ecology and waste management, and that combined with some medical things that have happened in my family has led me to view the deceased human body as any other deceased animal; it's good to make use of it if possible, if not, just dispose of it as pragmatically as you can.
A fragment of what you felt, of what you knew,
A formula, a phrase remains,—but the best is lost.
The answers quick and keen, the honest look, the laughter, the love,
They are gone.

The first body farm in my country was started a few years back; if my body isn't suitable for organ donation, that's the best place for my corpse. Rotting as is natural, giving back to science, and not costing my family pointless disposal fees.
Years ago, I happened to hear a segment on the NPR program All Things Considered that stopped me in my tracks and it has haunted me since. I re-read it every so often and it still resonates. I know that this isn't exactly an NPR-listening crowd, so if your sensibilities are offended, pretend I found it on Stormfront or something. I promise it's worth reading.

You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.

And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.

And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly. Amen.

Aaron Freeman

It’s easy to detach yourself in that way tbh.
I always tell people who are new to euthanizing and dissecting laboratory animals that one finds out pretty quickly whether he or she will become desensitized or if it's going to be a problem. As a rule of thumb, I think if a person isn't able to compartmentalize within the first month or two, it's probably not going to happen, and that is fine.

On the other hand, people who feel nothing at all when they sacrifice a laboratory rodent shouldn't be doing animal work, either. Obviously, it's even more complicated when living or deceased human beings are involved. It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that as a group, surgeons tend to score higher on measures of psychopathic traits than other professionals, including physicians. Some degree of fearlessness and immunity to stress are desirable in a surgeon. However, I think that many of the butchers discussed in this thread don't feel empathy and are knowingly harming people because they don't really care. Yes, the money is enticing, but there's also the very sinister possibility that they actually enjoy playing Mengele. These people have no business cutting into another sentient being. It's quite horrifying to consider.

Turner syndrome only affects females. It’s like the female Noonan syndrome, and results in short stature and other medical issues. Turners is also usually almost alway de novo (random) much like DS
I think this makes sense, since the majority of individuals with Turner syndrome are infertile. Don't most aneuploidies arise de novo?

Genetics is my favorite so I do apologize if I piss anyone off and so on.
It's fascinating, so please don't be dissuaded.
 
I have to be snarky here:
There are other medical issues that come with it as well. People with CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome ) are also prone to inguial hernias, or swelling of the labia, or absence of periods.
They don't get periods because they don't have a female Reproductive tract in the first place. Exactly like MRKH "women". Before Karyotype testing any doctors would have labeled both as girls as does lay-sciety. Karyotype gendering is unnecessary. It doesn't solve anything because intact people can be easily read as women or men without it.
A closed off, shallow vagina can be readily identified by examination, the missing uterus could be immediately identified in a small exploratory surgery even if we had no medical imaging.
The aforementioned are still all medical conditions. Troonism is not. Troonism does not cause abnormal karyotyping.
It's the other way around troonism is sometimes linked to abnormal Karyotype and even if it's not, there is something off with tomboys and girly boys who get socially designated by peers, parents and, most importantly, doctors for troonery. The latter may very well be some kind of partial androgen insensitivity if it's not outright klinefelter or w/e. But nothing should ever warrant any troon surgery on anybody.
AIS does increase the risk of testicular cancer due to the presence of the testis-specific protein Y-linked 1 (TSPY) gene as well as the Y chromosome. Other tumors associated are hamartomas, Sertoli cell adenomas and rarely Leydig-cell tumours, which are all benign but even so, do you want something growing in your body that’s not supposed to be there?
And these AIS and MRKH peeps arent helped with any of that by getting neo vaginas and unterine transplants either because that's all social - it's troonism because it doesn't address any of actual medical issues. It's all about fitting a pegin into a square. A weird little boy who wants to be a girl because he acts like one and looks androgynous is the same as an MRKH woman who wants an uterus and vaginoplasty, they all want to be something they are not, to fit in better. I'm not talkin about the bruce jenner tier freaks ITT, they are lowcows who go vehemently against the grain on purpose, I'm really just talking about transkids and teens - there is and always was a portion of gender a-typical kids and they are now endangered by this rampant medicalization of naturally gender-variant people - it all started with the "treatment" of these few unlucky intersex patients and was then ideologically expanded onto anyone who might just be gay.
That's at least how I've come to see it.
 
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