Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[World in Scarlet]

anti-Trump and pro-Putin traitors in D.C.

Trump appointed these people and himself parrots Kremlin propaganda lies. They're not anti-Trump, they're Trump.
Mining a single anti-Russian statement among dozens of pro-Russian ones, and completely ignoring all the actions taken by the Trump admin, is copium.

Various sides involved in the European negotiations say that the American delegation arrived without any plan, and Zelenskyy said that he thinks the American camp is split, probably between MAGA pro-Russians on the one side, and conservative Republicans on the other. He says he rejected an attempt to effectively scam Ukraine by requesting mineral rights in return for nothing.

The split on the American side can IMO be publicly seen in the incoherent approach to the negotiations, where the MAGA loyalists fall over themselves to hand Russia gifts and attack allies (the Vance speech was pure retardation by an anti-Western demagogue), while the people who are there on merit are dismayed by this incompetence and reproach them for making concessions without getting anything in return.

America looks weak, divided by culture war bullshit, which is fuelled by Russian/MAGA social media campaigns (Both groups closely cooperate in their messaging).

 

[Skylavijas]

If each country would stop some of the socialism and spend money on their military, they could probably defeat Russia as a collective effort.

idk man, China is straight up run by a communist party, it's as socialist as you can get in 21st century, but the state is so powerful, they could probably retake greater manchuria from Russia through economic and diplomatic pressures alone, without firing a single bullet. Outside of that, they have the largest military force in the world, while Russia is about to enter a demographic crisis. They did not need to sacrifice socialist gibs to achieve this.

If this is to be the Chinese century afterall, the worst possible thing Europe could do right now is emulate depressed empires like Russia or the US. I mean fuck, part of the reason Russians are so obsessed with the "glorious past" is because many would be willing to forfeit jeans, smartphones, burgers and cola just so they could have state guaranteed healthcare, housing and even work, as their grandparents had. You can say what you want about USSR, about how much of a rustpunk paper tiger it was, but everybody was guaranteed a job, which is an unimaginable reality in modern day Russia. And what was that socialism sacrificed for? For Russia to build a military industrial complex whose logistics are held up by duct tape and literal herd stock like goats or camels?

I don't necessarily have have gripes with some of the socialism being stopped, because economics are a complex affair and there are people way more intelligent than me that could bring valid arguments for one or the other, but it must bet replaced by something. If there's nothing replacing it, that will fuel further resentment among the population, further credence to rhetoric of schizoid politicians, who claim that organizations like WEF or blackrock exist to destroy the middle class, while they're simultaneously endorsing Israel. It all could undo all the efforts in forming a unified European force, if EU or NATO ceases to exist. I don't want Europe to end up in a situation like Germany, which decided to shut down all of it's nuclear reactors in the name of green energy, only to become forced to use coal to meet new energy demands. I don't want western Europe to economically privatize as it's eastern counterparts did, only to end up as a post-soviet oligarchic shitholes.

 

[Mound Dweller]

Genuinely curious what do you see as the ideal resolution?

The EU nutting up and declaring the de jure territory of Ukraine their rightful clay and blitzing through those zigga minefields with the use of conscripted migrant human waves who get full citizenship and a vasectomy if they make it to Rostov.
>but muh noooks
DO IT FAGGOT
Nukes will only happen if the nukers have no choice, there is always another choice, nukes will never happen, basic fucking human psychology as proved by all those fuckups that almost fallout'd us during the cold war but didn't because colonel actuallyhasabrainski decided not to at the last second.
Any action not taken because muh noooks is something you should be committing as often as possible because fuck nookphobia.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Actually you do, because democracy is fucking bullshit. That cocksucker faggot Georgescu only got as far as he did because people have long lost faith in the concept of democracy and most don't even bother to vote. He was getting good results because certain individuals from the old school political parties used their influence to allow him to rise up, under the idea that they'd appear as the saviors of the country during the second tour of the election and defeat him, except people voted with Lasconi instead of the old party apparatuses, so the old parties invalidated the elections and are now bringing in political refuse from ten years ago to run for president.
Georgescu being a faggot Putin dicklicker had nothing to do with why he was thrown out, it had everything to do with the old camarilla not getting the outcome they set up and deciding to go against it.
Russia is universally hated here for the attempted genocides they've enacted in the last 200 years on Transnistria, Besserabia, Northern Bukovina and Ismail and for fucking being nigger thieves, because when we lost WW1 we sent our gold treasures to the Russians for safekeeping, and to this day they haven't been fully returned.

I don't care. You can't call yourself a free people and then ban everyone you dislike and then cancel out the will of the people. The ends do not justify the means. Win the election on your own policy or get fucked.

If Trump wants that much material, he needs to hand over more than the pittance of HIMARS and 30 Abrams tanks. I could only see it being a good trade if we start sending over modern F-16s like the Block 50/52, UH-60s and additional Bradleys. Right now this mineral deal seems like an attempt to renege on the conditions for the previous aid packages provided.

The US has handed over fucking warships. Those Island Class Cutters were not cheap. Billions have been spent, billions must be paid back.

 

[Frederica Bernkastel]

America looks weak, divided by culture war bullshit, which is fuelled by Russian/MAGA social media campaigns (Both groups closely cooperate in their messaging).

Just a really silly thing to say as if Democrats have no agency, and aren't responsible for their libertine policy positions on sexuality, immigration, crime and homelessness that alienate vast parts of the country. Democrats just don't want to own up to the fact Clinton de-nuclearizing Ukraine, normalizing Yeltsin and Obama not being harsh enough on Russia after Crimea is largely why we're in this position now. Trump is an easy scapegoat for people who don't want to self reflect on decades of Democratic policy failures.

Don't most people do that here with Democrats? Neither is better, similar to Tories and Labour (in the UK). It seems people here are very much willing to give people they traditionally agree with (Trump/MAGA mostly) the benefit of the doubt, which is not objective thinking because it's inherently biased.

KF has enslaves of anti-Trump, pro-Trump people - it's not necessarily either or. No one is unbiased, but Scarlet would have you to believe that he's impartial even though he clearly isn't. He clearly has a particular political agenda that favors making excuses for the Democrats. More so, Kiwifarms has been under attack by left-leaning people for years now so it's not a surprise it might lean away from their beliefs.

 

[MG-34]

The US has handed over fucking warships. Those Island Class Cutters were not cheap. Billions have been spent, billions must be paid back

You're talking about preexisting surplus that was withdrawn from service. It's not like the US commissioned Lockeed Martin to build new equipment from the Federal Budget to furnish Ukraine. Also the US State Department didn't bill Ukraine for this equipment. Want money? Then offer something to make it worthwhile. Would you pay a bill from the police after they did a half ass job trying to arrest the hoodrat that stole your bike?

 

[WelperHelper99]

You're talking about preexisting surplus that was withdrawn from service. It's not like the US commissioned Lockeed Martin to build new equipment from the Federal Budget to furnish Ukraine. Also the US State Department didn't bill Ukraine for this equipment. Want money? Then offer something to make it worthwhile. Would you pay a bill from the police after they did a half ass job trying to arrest the hoodrat that stole your bike?

All that equipment has to be replaced. Javelin missiles cost money. M777 howitzers, which are NOT SURPLUS, cost a fuckton of money and Titanium. And even surplus isn't free. We could have used those cutters or sold them off. The US isn't a charity and isn't Communist. Mining rights are fair, no matter how the war pans out, because now we have to replace and refurb our own stocks for future wars.

 

[teriyakiburns]

The US has handed over fucking warships. Those Island Class Cutters were not cheap. Billions have been spent, billions must be paid back.

They weren't "transferred"; at least some of them were sold to Ukraine after decommissioning from the US coast guard, under the excess defence articles program, between 2018 and 2021. They would have been scrapped at significant cost otherwise. I'd say you're also stretching the definition of warship rather a long way by applying it to a coastguard cutter.

e: dates. may still be wrong.

 

[WelperHelper99]

They weren't "transferred"; they were sold to Ukraine after decommissioning from the US coast guard, under the excess defence articles program, between 2018 and 2021. They would have been scrapped at significant cost otherwise. I'd say you're also stretching the definition of warship rather a long way by applying it to a coastguard cutter.

e: dates. may still be wrong.

They have cannons and machine guns and are built to military standards. In times of war Coast Guard Cutters are under control of the US Navy and upgunned. They are warships. In this case a Island class cutter has a MK 38 25mm chaingun and 2 50 cal machine guns. Speed is 29.5 Knots. Range is 2900 nmi. Ukraine received 5. That is a warship and falls under the definition squarely.

Currently they are being replaced by the Sentinel class cutter, each of which costs roughly 65 million on average, contract may vary.

 

[-Jack-]

@teriyakiburns The more I read and hear things, the more embarrassing and incompetent it seems our (UK) entire military complex is, though maybe someone with a lot more knowledge can enlighten me.

Just how and when did it get so bad?

I feel like we (EU/Uk) rely way too much on America to produce our weapons and then would need their permission (Storm shadow) to actually use/donate them.

 

[WelperHelper99]

@teriyakiburns The more I read and hear things, the more embarrassing and incompetent it seems our (UK) entire military complex is, though maybe someone with a lot more knowledge can enlighten me.

Just how and when did it get so bad?

I feel like we (EU/Uk) rely way too much on America to produce our weapons and then would need their permission (Storm shadow) to actually use/donate them.

Depends whre you want to put the peg. Immediate post WW2 Europe was still pretty strong. Cold War had its ups and downs, but military readiness was generally high. Then the peace dividend happened, Soviet Union fell, Europe sold off everything, and by the early 2000's, the European MIC was gutted. They still were designing and making weapons, but only in small batches. Social programs took priority over military matters. You should have seen some of the designs in the 90's that got canned. Would have future proofed Europe for decades.

 

[Frederica Bernkastel]

It's hard to imagine a Harris convoy doing any better, but so far-I'm not impressed or optimistic of what I'm seeing now.

Is it controversial to argue that Europe should have it's own standing army? NATO could be restructured without the US, but the United States could still sell them weapons and give them intelligence because they share common interests. I don't even think it would take much time to do it. Ideally, the United States could keep its nuclear weapons there, but hand them over to its partners.

More so, why should the US defend Europe if it's unwilling to defend itself? If hypothetically NATO went to war with Europe against Russia, how could they win if Europe wasn't willing to fight? If anything, I think Europe wants the United States to be a meat shield like the Soviets were during WW2. That's just not acceptable.

 

[Something Awful]

Vance was justified saying what he did at Munich because both those situations are Soviet tier bullshit. You don't ban the opposition and you CERTAINLY DO NOT invalidate the will of the people. From the American perspective that is inconsolable. I don't care about the justification. You don't do that. Ever. You aren't a free people if you do these things.

I don't care. You can't call yourself a free people and then ban everyone you dislike and then cancel out the will of the people. The ends do not justify the means. Win the election on your own policy or get fucked.

No offense dude, but you’re posting cringe. I’m getting flashbacks of dudes with Master Chief avatars twenty years ago convinced that Dubya can do no wrong because something something muh freedom, don’t care about the details, USA!

 

[Ghostse]

DAILY REMINDER
The only reason Europe has to give a single solitary fuck about what the US says or who the US elects is because they are incapable of defending themselves. The correct response to the US threatening to leave NATO should "Ok. We'd rather you not what w/e" instead of utter meltdowns because they've gutted their militaries expecting to be able to depend on controllable US leaders and now they are triple fucked because they funded the army that threatens them while also making themselves dependent on that country for energy.

And I'm also going to remind everyone again that Trump didn't say he'd consider leaving NATO, he said he'd consider leaving NATO IF EUROPEAN COUNTRIES CONTINUE TO REFUSE THE 2% GDP SPELLED OUT IN THE AGREEMENT. Fund your military the absolute minimum, Trump stops threatening to leave an unequal agreement where the European side isn't even able to hold up its end. Simple as.

UH-60s

Those probably won't be worth much in the current environment. Everything elese I agree with.

Right now this mineral deal seems like an attempt to renege on the conditions for the previous aid packages provided.

I think Europe needs to pay more for its own defense, I think a lot of US military missions should be funded by the countries they are keeping order inside of.

But I don't like the mineral deal Trump is talking about for the simple reason of while its US weapons, the Yooks are doing the bleeding and dying. And that doesn't sit right with me - the are competently aiding their own defense vs. just expecting hand-outs. But I'm also not going to mald about it until we see the actual agreement, and what a peace plan looks like.
Because even though it doesn't sit right with me "The US now has mining operations all throughout the heart of Russian-claimed territory which means Russia can't just roll steel like 2014 & 2022 without directly starting a conflict with the US" would be a pretty good play (provided we dont have another fucking president bitchmade who will let it happen without doing anything other than talking about a need for a reset, which is a huge issue for any treaty.) which is probably why Zelensky isn't saying "Da FAQ? You serious nigga?"

I know this is a decisive issue amongst you fellas but just wanted to clarify. Im not very fond of Trump. He isnt the devil, he isnt the savior, I personally think hes just a big bully out of his depth when it comes to Real Politik. I would pray for the wisdom of a second ringer like George Bush Sr or I would elate an actual strategic mind like Richard Fucking Nixon right now. Alas I think these figures have left us.

There is a wide spectrum of not liking Trump that doesn't fall into derangement. It is very easy to not like everything that Trump does/a healthy percentage while also not parroting every lie as the truth, or acting like he is pure evil but also completely incompetent despite evidence to the contrary, or without refusing to acknowledge what he did good.
I hate Biden forcing trannies everywhere, canceling oil leases driving up the global price of oil, stoking racial divides, and participating a witch hunt against his predecessor, and letting his state department allow Trumps deal with the Taliban not be executed to very public results amongst may other things.
But he didn't completely bitch on Ukraine, his labor department made small steps to cut down on H-1B abuse, and... shoot,there's a few other things I can't remember off the top of my head.
I can and will acknowledge when Biden does something right because I don't have Biden Derrangement Syndrome. I also don't force Biden into every subject because I simply didn't like him as president.
I've also stepped in on more than one occasion to stop a Biden hate train because - I don't like the guy, but he's not a being of pure evil.

On Trump's foreign policy:
Trumplomacy is not a sustainable model. It only works as well as it does for two reasons:
One, afte 8 years of bitchmade obama and Dubya's less than skillful handling, and Clinton's World Policing PR drive, world leaders aren't sure how to handle someone who talks and acts like he leads the world's only super power and knows it.
Two, everyone knows you just sit back and be quiet for a couple years and he's out and you can get right back to fucking with the US with someone predictable.

Trump is 100% correct Putin wouldn't have invaded while Trump was president, because it wouldn't be worth the risk vs just waiting another couple years for trump to term out. If Trump was set to be infinitely elected like Putin has managed, Putin wouldn't have been as quiet as he was and would have been feeling around for weakness.

I'm not superthrilled with every move Trump makes, but the German ambassador laughed when he said they needed to increase their militaries and we are now living the results.

I also have misgivings because its not sustainable. It works right now because a bunch of world leaders were taking advantage of weak US leadership and very clearly they need a shot in the mouth (see: Columbia refusing to take their criminals back). But eventually people will (rightly) get sick of high-handed tactics.

There are some exceptions. Sweden still has a large military, despite cuts. It could certainly hold its own if the Russians ever managed to break through the defensive Finnfield. Overall though, the problem is that Europe, even collectively, doesn't have the resources to fund and field the kind of military people like Trump seem to envision when they say "spend more". And spending more doesn't necessarily get the results in any case.

You made a great post; I disagree on the "incapable of funding" but you are 100% on the "Money doesn't always yeild results", but a lot of countries aren't even trying.
There is also an issue with the requirement for each country to maintain their own fully formed militaries instead of focusing on specific capabilities which leads to massive inefficieincies. But curing those is cart before horse.

The greater issue however, is they gutted their defense industry. They aren't alone in this, the US has also fucked up bigly here, but this means arming/rearming is not just the cost of reequiping a modern military, its the cost of recapitalizing heavy industry something the collective west has been shifting to china because treehuggers find it dirty and icky and the company CEOs can abuse the shit out of chinese workers and no one cares.

 

[BONECRUSHER]

I don't care. You can't call yourself a free people and then ban everyone you dislike and then cancel out the will of the people. The ends do not justify the means. Win the election on your own policy or get fucked.

You can't call yourself a free people when you have shit like the Patriot Act being passed and giving a carte blanche for the government to deem anyone a terrorist, including their own citizens and disappear them to some extraterritorial shithole where they can be tortured for fun.

You can't call yourself a free people when you larp about muh freedumbz while you have faggots like Chuck Schumer, George Dubya and their whole ilk doing whatever they want while you retards sit by and do nothing.

You can't call yourself a free people when your capitol police allowed a bunch of retards to basically vandalize the Capitol and basically have the book thrown at them by the political establishment, while niggers get to burn down multiple cities, rob anyone at their own convenience and they barely even get slaps on the wrist.

You can't call yourself a free people when almost all your elites are dual citizenship kikes who prioritize Israel above everything else. (This includes both the demoncrats and your precious Zion Don)

Stop believing yourself to be superior because you got to profiteer from the World Wars that destroyed Europe, you're just as retarded as everyone else. The difference is that when you fuck up you still have oceans to keep you safe. When Europeans fuck up, they're the first to experience the consequences of it. Things are the way they are precisely because America wanted them to be this way, otherwise you cocksuckers wouldn't have pushed for the dismantlement of the European empires because you love sucking nigger jew cock and wanted to treat Europe as vassals, and now that you realize you may have to actually fight again you don't want to, but you still love the influence you have.

 

[Snekposter]

That's what they want to do. A long term goal of the project is erasure of the member states as political entities and their replacement with arbitrary federal territories, whose borders are entirely divorced from national identity and instead based on economic connections, like the backstory of some second rate YA novel.

It says something that a fucking American is probably more sympathetic towards European nations having borders, cultures, and histories than the people of those very nations are.

Is it controversial to argue that Europe should have it's own standing army? NATO could be restructured without the US, but the United States could still sell them weapons and give them intelligence because they share common interests. I don't even think it would take much time to do it. Ideally, the United States could keep its nuclear weapons there, but hand them over to its partners.

More so, why should the US defend Europe if it's unwilling to defend itself? If hypothetically NATO went to war with Europe against Russia, how could they win if Europe wasn't willing to fight? If anything, I think Europe wants the United States to be a meat shield like the Soviets were during WW2. That's just not acceptable.

That is the fundamental issue here. Europe expects Americans to go and happily die for Europe, and we just don't want to for reasons ranging from the fact they're an entire ocean away to the fact they've been resentful towards us ever since we became a nation Hell, right after helping us win our freedom from England the first thing the French did was try and stab us in the back at the peace talks to try and ensure we wouldn't ever become too powerful for their liking.

 

[BONECRUSHER]

It says something that a fucking American is probably more sympathetic towards European nations having borders, cultures, and histories than the people of those very nations are.

The western euros have had this inflicted upon them by both European and American elites shilling liberal ideologies upon them and acting as if pride in one's own people and culture is bad. The european elites did it so they could bring in foreign workforce, the Americans did it to weaken European resolve and keep the continent subservient.

 

[No. 7 cat]

Spoiler: Zelensky confirms the minerals agreement is not ready to sign, not that it was rejected - Ukrainska Pravda

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has confirmed that Ukraine is not walking away from a minerals deal proposed by US President Donald Trump, but the agreement is not yet ready for signing.

Source: Zelenskyy at the final press conference of the Munich Security Conference, as reported by European Pravda

Details: Zelenskyy noted that his signature would not be on the agreement anyway.

"The agreement would be signed at ministerial level, but I am the president and will have an impact on its content," he said.

Zelenskyy acknowledged that he has not yet given his consent to the deal, as the agreement is not yet ready to be signed.

"I have not agreed to the signing of the agreement, because it is not ready yet," he said.

Zelenskyy emphasised that the agreement should not just be about minerals: it should also cover the benefits for Ukraine, particularly security guarantees.

"This is about investments. You can consider profit distribution once clear security guarantees have been defined. I haven't seen that there so far," he explained.

Background:

• Earlier, NBC News reported that Washington had proposed that Kyiv grant the US 50% ownership of Ukraine's minerals, a suggestion Zelenskyy rejected.
• Meanwhile, in Munich, the US has asked Europe to prepare proposals for security guarantees for Ukraine.

archive / original

The Ukrainian President does hope the agreement covers more than simply minerals, but also the benefit and security guarantees for Ukraine. Anyhow, a mine in Ukraine guarded by US troops is a fairly decent security guarantee. Recent history is full of various gents now under the soil who thought they could hassle Uncle Sam and a few of his soldiers.

 

[Snekposter]

The western euros have had this inflicted upon them by both European and American elites shilling liberal ideologies upon them and acting as if pride in one's own people and culture is bad. The european elites did it so they could bring in foreign workforce, the Americans did it to weaken European resolve and keep the continent subservient.

Europe: Invents Communism and the Frankfurt School.

Also Europe: How could you Americans do this to us?

If you want to blame anyone for this, blame France since they're Ground Zero for all of this faggotry.

The Ukrainian President does hope the agreement covers more than simply minerals, but also the benefit and security guarantees for Ukraine. Anyhow, a mine in Ukraine guarded by US troops is a fairly decent security guarantee. Recent history is full of various gents now under the soil who thought they could hassle Uncle Sam and a few of his soldiers.

On top of that, historically the USA has tended to react poorly when people fuck with our commercial investments.

 

[BONECRUSHER]

Europe: Invents Communism and the Frankfurt School.

This particular issue pre-dates Communism itself, but yes they didn't help. The liberalism was coming long before this, and you fags are also responsible for it, you went to war over wanting to keep the South economically crippled because the North refused to invest in the South and wanted to keep it politically suppressed, but they had to justify it to the public by treating niggers like they were human beings that deserve freedom.

Communism was german kikes, and believe me I would see Berlin, Brussels and Moscow turned into radioactive craters if I could help it.