Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

We've been through this already.
Galidraan will never be the "glorious disaster" for the Mandalorians you're so desperate to paint it as.
The True Mandalorians were massacred almost to a man.
End of story.
The Jedi regretting the loss of life, nice moving of the goalposts by the way, isn't remotely the same as the galaxy shaking in terror at the ferocity of the Mandalorians and wondering how the Jedi will ever recover.
By the way your definition of a Pyrrhic Victory is rather odd.
If completely destroying the enemy and leaving them with no chance of victory is Pyrrhic then Alesia was a Pyrrhic Victory for Ceasar because hey the Gauls killed quite a few Legionaries before they went down.
The True Mandalorians ceased to exist in the span of like 20 minutes.
Killing a few dozen Jedi, who they outnumbered by a substantial amount, in an order of 10,000+ does nothing to change that.
I have to wonder if you're even reading the same books that everyone else is.

He has to keep hanging on to that, as if getting your entire army killed was some kind of glorious thing while the enemy only lost half their forces. And he still sticks to the narrative that there were less than 20 Mandalorians at Galidraan, despite one of the Jedi who fought there openly stating that she cut down at least 20 Mandos herself in that one battle and official articles about the battle saying that there were at least 300 Mandalorians a la Thermopylae. The Jedi practically erased an entire Mandalorian faction in a day and all it took was a measly one half of a small strike force.

Oh, Kathleen is very specific with the main actresses she hires. It's why she also had Jynn as a dark haired white woman with a some received pronunciation. I don't know why- oh who am I kidding this is why:

View attachment 1584811

Drunk wine mom with a tentacle fetish is self-inserting herself into those characters to feel better and more powerful about herself. Literally her OCs are what she wants to be: flawless heroines who save everything and who have daddy issues due to being dug out of the gutter by Lucas as a diversity hire.

He is not above editing or instantly changing his position when it suits him, using and denying what a creator does whenever possible if he thinks it works for his argument.

He's just salty he can't "win" via attrition anymore, since at least one person will always respond back. This is only after his attempt to pretend to be the reasonable or more knowledgeable one failed, and his reliance on social pressure via people discouraging longposting failed to get people to stop talking about his waifu author in a negative tone.

This is just one last gasp to pretend he has control over the argument.

Damn, KK's actions look like the actions of a teenage fanfic author. Except now her mistakes destroyed a franchise her new bosses spent $4 billion to buy. Breaking Daddy Disney's toys like that will screw her up in the long run.

It's funny, really. In that debate, I stuck to what Lucas stated about the Force and what makes people happy, as well as how the films portray the characters. He still insists that the crap he cites is G-canon or at least consistent with G-canon, yet he acts like TOR novels count more than TOR's storyline and some comic stories matter while others don't. He insists that comics with Jedi having superpowers can't be canon because they conflict with the films, even though the films had Mace Windu openly state that the Jedi aren't as strong as they used to be, which explains away the power imbalance as to why Prequel-era Jedi aren't as strong as their counterparts in other eras.

The big reason she isn't doing this is twofold. The first is that voice work has only in the last decade or so been destigmatized as an avenue by large animated productions. If you were stuck being a voice for a character, that crippled your career choices for a long time; it wasn't until the 90s and 2000s that this stigma went away.

The second is that for decades voicework was its own industry and had its own unions and guilds. It still does, and a recent fight that's been in Hollywood is trying to force in standard actors to voice acting roles to ensure they can be kept employed and money can be made. Issue is that this intrudes on the VA community, who were long ignored and they were I believe tied to writing to give you an idea.

Though I am pretty sure Daisy is doing roles recently; I think some shitty game had her as a VA. But that's why you aren't seeing a big flood. Like how people see comics and games, these cumrags don't like the lack of "glamor" and attention these venues have. They also have to deal with an entrenched system that knows it'd struggle to not get destroyed and absorbed by them.

It's only been recently that animation aimed at nerds have had a positive reception. I'd say from the 2010s onward. Prior to that, animation was either for kids, or comedy shows for adults, and neither were taken seriously by the media and Hollywood.

Well, in this time of pandemic, Hollywood has no choice. They have to keep these guys employed, and they certainly can't shoot a film now, can't they?

Comics and games have long been looked down upon by people in serious literary circles. Hollywood starlets probably see them as a massive step down from movies, even though video games as an art medium have surpassed movies in profitability, which can lend further credibility to them being a more prevalent form of art.

Don't insult my boy Hayden like that. He, unlike Ridley, is a decent actor. He atleast tried with his performance in the prequels. He took some risks with his choices and they didn't pan out. There's a complete story arc there for Anikan in his performance whether you like that arc and his performance or not.

If that's not enough for you, watch him in Shattered Glass and Losers and compare it to the sad performance she gave in Murder on the Orient Express. Her issue is not the director. She's a bland, non-interesting actress who isn't hot enough to warrant being in a film on that alone.

Hayden was doing his best with what Lucas gave him. I especially feel for him in EPII, where some of the scenes that had Anakin and Padme getting some good character interaction got cut and we were left with an unlikable, whiny twat who gets shit on by not only his masters, but by the audience. EPIII is where he really shined, because you can clearly see his moral dilemmas and yet still see an evil character who many love to hate.

Again, as I said before, it seems that Daisy Ridley's parents wasted all that money in acting school, because in EPVII, John Boyega came off as more believable/lifelike than her despite having the role of a sidekick.
 
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The Mandolorian with a Fat WOC and Discount Morgan Freeman.
Thats not a "WOC", at least not in my eyes.

...and Zaryiu, I think that comic excerpt is pretty nice. I have always considered that one scene when Vader's helmet is removed and we see the old broken man viewing his child for the first time the most important and incredible scene in the entire trilogy.
 
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Don't insult my boy Hayden like that. He, unlike Ridley, is a decent actor. He atleast tried with his performance in the prequels. He took some risks with his choices and they didn't pan out. There's a complete story arc there for Anikan in his performance whether you like that arc and his performance or not.

If that's not enough for you, watch him in Shattered Glass and Losers and compare it to the sad performance she gave in Murder on the Orient Express. Her issue is not the director. She's a bland, non-interesting actress who isn't hot enough to warrant being in a film on that alone.

I didn't, my point was his acting ability didn't have much impact. he could've been the best actor in the world, with the script and the direction he got it was all he could do. same for jake lloyd. so considering the overall shit package we got with nuwars, she could've been the best actress in the world, it wouldn't have made a difference. and if the writing would've been actually good no one would've cared. that's why the whole "he/she can/can't act" aspect is pretty irrelevant imo.
 
I didn't, my point was his acting ability didn't have much impact. he could've been the best actor in the world, with the script and the direction he got it was all he could do. same for jake lloyd. so considering the overall shit package we got with nuwars, she could've been the best actress in the world, it wouldn't have made a difference. and if the writing would've been actually good no one would've cared. that's why the whole "he/she can/can't act" aspect is pretty irrelevant imo.

Sadly, there were many scenes cut from AOTC which would have made Anakin more sympathetic as they showed a lot of good character relationship drama between him and Padme that would justify their love story.

But the thing is, John Boyega didn't have as much high-priced acting lessons as Daisy Ridley did, and came off as just as good, if not better than Daisy, hence why it was an utter travesty that he wasn't the main character. An ex-Stormtrooper becoming a Jedi, fighting against an evil student of Luke Skywalker? It could have been the big-screen version of Jedi Outcast. Instead, we got Instant Jedi Just Add Feminism.
 
Hurt her career? she was a "literal who" whose previous high point in her "career" had been playing a dead body on one of the hundreds of generic TV crime dramas.

She had no career to hurt and being Rey will absolutely be her high point in this still birth career she desperately wants to lead to other bigger things (but won't). She has already made several million dollars off the role and, if she is not as stupid as we think she is, she will invest that for the future because she is not going to have much else to open her mouth to in the acting world.

Idk man she did an amazing job in Toast of London. Probably got her the lead
 
An ex-Stormtrooper becoming a Jedi, fighting against an evil student of Luke Skywalker? It could have been the big-screen version of Jedi Outcast.

The original marketing materials kind of led me to believe it would be something like that. Then I go see the movie and I realize that JJ fucked me again, Into Darkness style.
 
IIRC they DID have a bible / line developer / lore master before Disney to keep the continuity in check with the novels and games.

Leland Chee was the guy who kept the Holocron (the database for the continuity) together from 2000-2013 (official position was Continuity Database Manager, Lucas Licensing).

He's now Senior Creative Executive, Lucasfilm Franchise Content & Strategy.
 
Sadly, there were many scenes cut from AOTC which would have made Anakin more sympathetic as they showed a lot of good character relationship drama between him and Padme that would justify their love story.

But the thing is, John Boyega didn't have as much high-priced acting lessons as Daisy Ridley did, and came off as just as good, if not better than Daisy, hence why it was an utter travesty that he wasn't the main character. An ex-Stormtrooper becoming a Jedi, fighting against an evil student of Luke Skywalker? It could have been the big-screen version of Jedi Outcast. Instead, we got Instant Jedi Just Add Feminism.

tbh at this point I'm all outta fucks to give about "what could've been". but even if we got that initial idea properly done it would've never been boyega, disney is woke but not that woke, you can't simply cut the main protagonist out of the movie for china. ridley is much more compatible in that regard. not that they used any of that, but still..

also
>jedi outcast
>not dark forces
zoomer pls

(just pulling your leg here mate).
 
spoiler your text walls
We've been through this already.
Galidraan will never be the "glorious disaster" for the Mandalorians you're so desperate to paint it as.
The True Mandalorians were massacred almost to a man.
End of story.
The term I've been using is "debacle," which seems like an accurate descriptor given how the event is viewed from both the Mandalorian and Jedi/Republic perspective in various sources. It was definitely not "the finest hour" for either side.

The Jedi regretting the loss of life, nice moving of the goalposts by the way, isn't remotely the same as the galaxy shaking in terror at the ferocity of the Mandalorians and wondering how the Jedi will ever recover.
Your words, not mine. The point I emphasized was that suffering a KIA ratio of fifty percent is pretty catastrophic by real-world military standards, and as such, if Galidraan were a real-life battle, we would be talking about the Advance of Dooku's Jedi in similar terms as Picket's Charge or the Charge of the Light Brigade.

By the way your definition of a Pyrrhic Victory is rather odd.

If completely destroying the enemy and leaving them with no chance of victory is Pyrrhic then Alesia was a Pyrrhic Victory for Ceasar because hey the Gauls killed quite a few Legionaries before they went down.
As I've previously explained, the common definition of a Pyrrhic victory is one in which the victory is not worth the price paid for it.

This is a logical descriptor for the Jedi intervention on Galidraan, as the Jedi Order ended up losing a significant number of highly-trained and very valuable personnel to attain a "victory" that consisted of killing a bunch of people who were innocent of the charges that the Jedi confronted them on the basis of in the first place, while helping to disillusion the powerful, ambitious and influential Jedi Master Dooku against the Order and the Republic, and causing the vengeful and astonishingly dangerous Jango Fett to harbor a murderous anti-Jedi grudge that would help lead to his becoming the template for the Jedi-exterminating Clone Army.

The True Mandalorians ceased to exist in the span of like 20 minutes.
Killing a few dozen Jedi, who they outnumbered by a substantial amount, in an order of 10,000+ does nothing to change that.
I have to wonder if you're even reading the same books that everyone else is.
Here's a relevant passage from James Luceno's Darth Plagueis book:

Plagueis.png


As you can see:
  1. Despite ostensibly being a "provincial conflict," the invocation of "Galidraan" has apparently become Senate-parlance for a quagmire involving dead Jedi (note that none of the delegates present in the Galactic Senate's Grand Convocation Chamber need to ask Chancellor Valorum what he means by "another Galidraan," demonstrating the wide extent of the incident's infamy).
  2. Jedi Knights are painfully few in number, relative to the scale of their assigned task of keeping the peace in the Republic, and recently, more and more of them have been dying in the line of duty than seems to be historically normal, with the Galidraan incident being a noteworthy example of this latter trend.
  3. Palpatine, a Dark Lord of the Sith, sees the battle as a sign that the Dark Side has, in essence, conferred its blessing upon his designs, lending it a degree of cosmic significance, despite the small numbers involved.

Interestingly, I'm not sure that there is a book stating that Jango's True Mandalorians "outnumbered [the Jedi] by a substantial amount." In Darth Plagueis (2012), James Luceno states that eleven Jedi were killed but does not, so far as I've seen, comment on the size of Jango's force. Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (2007) has Dooku claiming that twenty Jedi were insufficient to subdue a "small army" of Mandalorians, and repeats the eleven Jedi KIA claim but again offers no numbers for the Mandos. The New Essential Guide to Characters (2002) actually claims that the Jedi outnumbered the Mandalorians (which seems likely going by the art for Jango Fett: Open Seasons) but also that Jango actually slipped away during the battle, rather than falling (as shown in the comic) headfirst into a PTSD episode and being handed over to the Governor of Galidraan by the Jedi . Order 66 (2008 ) has Fenn Shysa claiming that Mandalore has not had "a credible army since Galidraan" a statement which fellow Mando Kal Skirata apparently finds unbelievable. Imperial Commando (2009) merely mentions Walon Vau's survivor's guilt for not being at Jango's side during the battle. The Insider article "The History of the Mandalorians" (2005) states that the True Mandalorian faction was "totally wiped out" (save for Jango) while the Essential Guide to Warfare (2012) merely states that they were "decimated" (if I've missed a major source of information about the battle here, please let me know).

Now, Wookiepedia claims that there were three hundred troops present under Jango at Galidraan, but according to the page's discussion tab, this is only an extrapolation based on the idea that if Komari Vosa supposedly killed 20 Mandalorians, then each of the other Jedi present simply must have killed a similar number. The claim is made that Leland Chee "apparently" canonized this calculation, however there's no link or quotation provided as proof, and the extrapolation itself presents the basic problem of contradicting the original and most detailed account of the battle (i.e. Open Seasons) to an almost comical degree.

LOLNO.png


Open Seasons itself never shows more than sixteen True Mandalorians gathered together on Galidraan, and oddly enough, seems to make a point of showing more limp Jedi bodies lying in the snow than Mandos in virtually every relevant panel:

KIA.jpg


KIA2.jpg


KIA3.jpg

If one were to count every brown-robed body on the ground as a KIA (assuming that none are wounded or the same corpse viewed from different angles), the end-result would be a Jedi death-toll of about 18-19, which is well within the realm of possibility considering that the Jedi force arrived in a small fleet of five Consular-class starships.

Hope that that clears things up a bit. 😉

No gayz. Seriously. The Jedi slaughtering you all in fights and being the stooges of the Sith is totally awesome. Queen Karen totally was being followed by others, even the ones that were writing Mandos more than 10 years before she appeared!
I'm not really sure which authors you're referring to. Traviss's first SW book was published in 2004. The original KOTOR game, which is credited as Karpyshyn's first contribution to the EU, came out a year earlier, as did Sean Williams' first SW books. Matthew Stover's Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor was published in 2008, John Jackson Miller's Knights of the Old Republic title began publication at the beginning of 2006, James Luceno's The Unifying Force (the first time that he wrote about Mandalorians, so far as I'm aware) was released in 2006, and Hall Hood doesn't seem to have any SW-related writing credits prior to 2011. I think that that accounts for all of the authors that I noted as taking pages from Traviss's Mando lore in later works concerning Mandalorians. 🤔
 
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The term I've been using is "debacle," which seems like an accurate descriptor given how the event is viewed from both the Mandalorian and Jedi/Republic perspective in various sources. It was definitely not "the finest hour" for either side.

Your words, not mine. The point I emphasized was that suffering a KIA ratio of fifty percent is pretty catastrophic by real-world military standards, and as such, if Galidraan were a real-life battle, we would be talking about the Advance of Dooku's Jedi in similar terms as Picket's Charge or the Charge of the Light Brigade.

As I've previously explained, the common definition of a Pyrrhic victory is one in which the victory is not worth the price paid for it.

This is a logical descriptor for the Jedi intervention on Galidraan, as the Jedi Order ended up losing a significant number of highly-trained and very valuable personnel to attain a "victory" that consisted of killing a bunch of people who were innocent of the charges that the Jedi confronted them on the basis of in the first place, while helping to disillusion the powerful, ambitious and influential Jedi Master Dooku against the Order and the Republic, and causing the vengeful and astonishingly dangerous Jango Fett to harbor a murderous anti-Jedi grudge that would help lead to his becoming the template for the Jedi-exterminating Clone Army.

Here's a relevant passage from James Luceno's Darth Plagueis book:

View attachment 1587494

As you can see:
  1. Despite ostensibly being a "provincial conflict," the invocation of "Galidraan" has apparently become Senate-parlance for a quagmire involving dead Jedi (note that none of the delegates present in the Galactic Senate's Grand Convocation Chamber need to ask Chancellor Valorum what he means by "another Galidraan," demonstrating the wide extent of the incident's infamy).
  2. Jedi Knights are painfully few in number, relative to the scale of their assigned task of keeping the peace in the Republic, and recently, more and more of them have been dying in the line of duty than seems to be historically normal, with the Galidraan incident being a noteworthy example of this latter trend.
  3. Palpatine, a Dark Lord of the Sith, sees the battle as a sign that the Dark Side has, in essence, conferred its blessing upon his designs, lending it a degree of cosmic significance, despite the small numbers involved.

Interestingly, I'm not sure that there is a book stating that Jango's True Mandalorians "outnumbered [the Jedi] by a substantial amount." In Darth Plagueis (2012), James Luceno states that eleven Jedi were killed but does not, so far as I've seen, comment on the size of Jango's force. Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (2007) has Dooku claiming that twenty Jedi were insufficient to subdue a "small army" of Mandalorians, and repeats the eleven Jedi KIA claim but again offers no numbers for the Mandos. The New Essential Guide to Characters (2002) actually claims that the Jedi outnumbered the Mandalorians (which seems likely going by the art for Jango Fett: Open Seasons) but also that Jango actually slipped away during the battle, rather than falling (as shown in the comic) headfirst into a PTSD episode and being handed over to the Governor of Galidraan by the Jedi . Order 66 (2008 ) has Fenn Shysa claiming that Mandalore has not had "a credible army since Galidraan" a statement which fellow Mando Kal Skirata apparently finds unbelievable. Imperial Commando (2009) merely mentions Walon Vau's survivor's guilt for not being at Jango's side during the battle. The Insider article "The History of the Mandalorians" (2005) states that the True Mandalorian faction was "totally wiped out" (save for Jango) while the Essential Guide to Warfare (2012) merely states that they were "decimated" (if I've missed a major source of information about the battle here, please let me know).

Now, Wookiepedia claims that there were three hundred troops present under Jango at Galidraan, but according to the page's discussion tab, this is only an extrapolation based on the idea that if Komari Vosa supposedly killed 20 Mandalorians, then each of the other Jedi present simply must have killed a similar number. The claim is made that Leland Chee "apparently" canonized this calculation, however there's no link or quotation provided as proof, and the extrapolation itself presents the basic problem of contradicting the original and most detailed account of the battle (i.e. Open Seasons) to an almost comical degree.

View attachment 1587615

Open Seasons itself never shows more than sixteen True Mandalorians gathered together on Galidraan, and oddly enough, seems to make a point of showing more limp Jedi bodies lying in the snow than Mandos in virtually every relevant panel:


If one were to count every brown-robed body on the ground as a KIA (assuming that none are wounded or the same corpse viewed from different angles), the end-result would be a Jedi death-toll of about 18-19, which is well within the realm of possibility considering that the Jedi force arrived in a small fleet of five Consular-class starships.

Hope that that clears things up a bit. 😉

I'm not really sure which authors you're referring to. Traviss's first SW book was published in 2004. The original KOTOR game, which is credited as Karpyshyn's first contribution to the EU, came out a year earlier, as did Sean Williams' first SW books. Matthew Stover's Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor was published in 2008, John Jackson Miller's Knights of the Old Republic title began publication at the beginning of 2006, James Luceno's The Unifying Force (the first time that he wrote about Mandalorians, so far as I'm aware) was released in 2006, and Hall Hood doesn't seem to have any SW-related writing credits prior to 2011. I think that that accounts for all of the authors that I noted as taking pages from Traviss's Mando lore in later works concerning Mandalorians. 🤔
!. Every official source lists there being 300 Mandalorians at Galidraan.
The fact that you are trying to pretend that there were less than 20 based on nothing more than how many bodies you can count in panels defies belief.
2. At best your arguments only paint Galidraan as a political debacle.
Not a military one.
It's closer to the Battle of Mogadishu or the Tet Offensive than Bunker Hill or Borodino.
It's a symbol of Republic corruption not Jedi incompetence or Mandalorian badassery.
The Jedi destroyed the Mandalorians and completed their mission.
The mission just happened to be under false pretenses and was ultimately needless.
3. You waifus are shit and their only purpose is job to the Jedi and be Sith attack dogs.
Even Space Marine fanboys are less slobberingly sycophantic and don't deny reality as much as Fandalorians do.
 
Sadly, there were many scenes cut from AOTC which would have made Anakin more sympathetic as they showed a lot of good character relationship drama between him and Padme that would justify their love story.
I second this. The deleted Anakin/Padme scenes mark the only instances where I was uber-pissed at George cutting scenes from any of his Star Wars films. I would've even have settled for having some of my favorite scenes like the Beast Arena and the Genosis Battle cut short just to have those deleted scenes stay in the film, and actually flesh out their relationship (and Padme's characterization) in the ways that it needed.

Of course, the novelization kept most of those scenes intact, so they're canon to me regardless.
 
Even Space Marine fanboys are less slobberingly sycophantic and don't deny reality as much as Fandalorians do.

I usually stay out of these little slap fights because I'm a Mando fan too although not nearly as obssessive, but cmon, those Ultramarine cocksuckers are just as bad as this guy. Smurf ass motherfuckers.
 
The term I've been using is "debacle," which seems like an accurate descriptor given how the event is viewed from both the Mandalorian and Jedi/Republic perspective in various sources. It was definitely not "the finest hour" for either side.

Your words, not mine. The point I emphasized was that suffering a KIA ratio of fifty percent is pretty catastrophic by real-world military standards, and as such, if Galidraan were a real-life battle, we would be talking about the Advance of Dooku's Jedi in similar terms as Picket's Charge or the Charge of the Light Brigade.

As I've previously explained, the common definition of a Pyrrhic victory is one in which the victory is not worth the price paid for it.

This is a logical descriptor for the Jedi intervention on Galidraan, as the Jedi Order ended up losing a significant number of highly-trained and very valuable personnel to attain a "victory" that consisted of killing a bunch of people who were innocent of the charges that the Jedi confronted them on the basis of in the first place, while helping to disillusion the powerful, ambitious and influential Jedi Master Dooku against the Order and the Republic, and causing the vengeful and astonishingly dangerous Jango Fett to harbor a murderous anti-Jedi grudge that would help lead to his becoming the template for the Jedi-exterminating Clone Army.

Here's a relevant passage from James Luceno's Darth Plagueis book:

View attachment 1587494

As you can see:
  1. Despite ostensibly being a "provincial conflict," the invocation of "Galidraan" has apparently become Senate-parlance for a quagmire involving dead Jedi (note that none of the delegates present in the Galactic Senate's Grand Convocation Chamber need to ask Chancellor Valorum what he means by "another Galidraan," demonstrating the wide extent of the incident's infamy).
  2. Jedi Knights are painfully few in number, relative to the scale of their assigned task of keeping the peace in the Republic, and recently, more and more of them have been dying in the line of duty than seems to be historically normal, with the Galidraan incident being a noteworthy example of this latter trend.
  3. Palpatine, a Dark Lord of the Sith, sees the battle as a sign that the Dark Side has, in essence, conferred its blessing upon his designs, lending it a degree of cosmic significance, despite the small numbers involved.

Interestingly, I'm not sure that there is a book stating that Jango's True Mandalorians "outnumbered [the Jedi] by a substantial amount." In Darth Plagueis (2012), James Luceno states that eleven Jedi were killed but does not, so far as I've seen, comment on the size of Jango's force. Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (2007) has Dooku claiming that twenty Jedi were insufficient to subdue a "small army" of Mandalorians, and repeats the eleven Jedi KIA claim but again offers no numbers for the Mandos. The New Essential Guide to Characters (2002) actually claims that the Jedi outnumbered the Mandalorians (which seems likely going by the art for Jango Fett: Open Seasons) but also that Jango actually slipped away during the battle, rather than falling (as shown in the comic) headfirst into a PTSD episode and being handed over to the Governor of Galidraan by the Jedi . Order 66 (2008 ) has Fenn Shysa claiming that Mandalore has not had "a credible army since Galidraan" a statement which fellow Mando Kal Skirata apparently finds unbelievable. Imperial Commando (2009) merely mentions Walon Vau's survivor's guilt for not being at Jango's side during the battle. The Insider article "The History of the Mandalorians" (2005) states that the True Mandalorian faction was "totally wiped out" (save for Jango) while the Essential Guide to Warfare (2012) merely states that they were "decimated" (if I've missed a major source of information about the battle here, please let me know).

Now, Wookiepedia claims that there were three hundred troops present under Jango at Galidraan, but according to the page's discussion tab, this is only an extrapolation based on the idea that if Komari Vosa supposedly killed 20 Mandalorians, then each of the other Jedi present simply must have killed a similar number. The claim is made that Leland Chee "apparently" canonized this calculation, however there's no link or quotation provided as proof, and the extrapolation itself presents the basic problem of contradicting the original and most detailed account of the battle (i.e. Open Seasons) to an almost comical degree.

View attachment 1587615

Open Seasons itself never shows more than sixteen True Mandalorians gathered together on Galidraan, and oddly enough, seems to make a point of showing more limp Jedi bodies lying in the snow than Mandos in virtually every relevant panel:


If one were to count every brown-robed body on the ground as a KIA (assuming that none are wounded or the same corpse viewed from different angles), the end-result would be a Jedi death-toll of about 18-19, which is well within the realm of possibility considering that the Jedi force arrived in a small fleet of five Consular-class starships.

Hope that that clears things up a bit. 😉

I'm not really sure which authors you're referring to. Traviss's first SW book was published in 2004. The original KOTOR game, which is credited as Karpyshyn's first contribution to the EU, came out a year earlier, as did Sean Williams' first SW books. Matthew Stover's Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor was published in 2008, John Jackson Miller's Knights of the Old Republic title began publication at the beginning of 2006, James Luceno's The Unifying Force (the first time that he wrote about Mandalorians, so far as I'm aware) was released in 2006, and Hall Hood doesn't seem to have any SW-related writing credits prior to 2011. I think that that accounts for all of the authors that I noted as taking pages from Traviss's Mando lore in later works concerning Mandalorians. 🤔

You do realize the comic was focusing on Jango himself, right? They can't show all 300 Mandalorians, because the comic was about JANGO FETT. And again, canonically, Komari Vosa, who was at that battlefield, killed at least 20 Mandalorians that day, as she states in the Bounty Hunter game. And that game is.......drum roll please......CANON! THAT GAME IS CANON TO LEGENDS AS A C-CANON WORK! The game shows us the resolution regarding the rivalry between Jango Fett and Montross, how Jango was chosen as the clone template, and how he met Zam Wessel and partnered up with her. Again, this goes to show your utter stupidity as a debater. You can't pull in C-canon works like the Traviss books and the early Marvel Star Wars comics starring Fenn Shysa and say that other C-canon works aren't canon. I'm not the biggest fan of LOTF and the Traviss books, but that shit is canon to Legends and a part of C-canon, and I can't get around that as much as I'd love to.

Finis Valorum noted how the Jedi are too few to protect the galaxy. Hence why he wasn't thrilled with the prospect of having them as a defense force, and why the Senate and the Jedi Order were hesitant to fight the Separatists until they discovered that a clone army trained and indoctrinated by Mandalorians just happened to be around, ready to kill and die for the Republic. That doesn't mean Jedi can't do military things, since for 25,000 YEARS, THEY'VE BEEN FIGHTING WARS ON BEHALF OF THE REPUBLIC! And no, before you pull out the whole "Lucas didn't believe in the Jedi vs. Sith Wars!" even TCW has Sidious talk about past Sith Empires during the Slaves of the Republic arc when he says that past Sith Empires were built on the backs of slaves AND it also has Darth Bane, a Sith who survived the last Sith vs. Jedi war before the Clone Wars, meaning that Sith Empires did exist in the past AND the Jedi put the kibosh on them, even in TCW which had input from Lucas. Other media that had input from Lucas includes Force Unleashed, where in the Wii/PS2 version, Darth Desolous and Darth Phobos existed as simulacrums-Darth Desolus killed a thousand Jedi, and Darth Phobos was such a threat that Jedi and Sith allied with each other to put her down, meaning that the Jedi vs. Sith Wars obviously existed.

And of course, there are non-Sith wars like the Mandalorian Wars and the Pius Dea Crusades where the Jedi played a part, not to mention that during the 1000-year peace after the last Sith War and before the Clone Wars, the Jedi fought summer wars all the time to ensure that the Republic remains afloat and stable. Down to the point where Republic Judicial Terrinald Screed identifies the Jedi as "the august order that has staved off warfare for a millennium." How did they do that? By fighting summer wars and keeping threats minimal before they exploded into full-scale war. The only reason they allowed the Separatists to build up is because they thought the Seps and Count Dooku were just political activists. If they had known that Dooku was planning military action from the start, they'd have taken his head before his Separatist movement grew into a threat. When he was making an argument for a unified Republic army and navy, Screed also talks about how the Jedi used to lead armies to victories in the past, and he argued that the Jedi could lead an army to victory in the future:

"Relying on Planetary Security or Sector Forces is a stop-gap solution, as the inefficiencies of the Stark Hyperspace War so painfully demonstrated. The solution is obvious -- a unified military coordinated from Coruscant. Our ancient history has proven this has time and again -- the Great Sith War, the Kanz Disorders, the Virujansi Uprising -- times when a unified Republic Navy and Army were strong. And now, as then, there is still a role for the Jedi in today's galaxy: leading an army to victory."
-Republic Judicial Terrinald Screed, arguing for a unified Republic Army and Navy, Holonet News Point/Counterpoint on the Military Creation Act

So yeah, that whole "Jedi should be kept away from the military" thing makes no sense, since in the past, the Jedi were leading armies to victory, and in the Original Trilogy, Princess Leia Organa identifies Obi-Wan Kenobi as GENERAL Kenobi, and she wants his aid for the Rebellion. Meaning that had he survived the mission to rescue Leia from the Death Star, he'd be a general in the Rebel Alliance movement, or perhaps even the LEADER of the Alliance military, almost akin to a shogun for Leia and Mon Mothma. (Now I have an image in my head of Alec Guiness wearing Samurai armor. And it's awesome!)

KOTOR was only following Tales of the Jedi's depiction of the Mandalorians, which didn't go with loose clan structures but rather had them be a large, nomadic military force under an autocrat, a force that valued war and were itching for a new crusade to break out. They even stated in the Tales of the Jedi comics that the Mandalorians are "ruthless and implacable" and they "live for the savagery of a mercenary attack." Meaning that they were savage and bloodthirsty at war. Even in the KOTOR comics, which somewhat recognized Traviss' language and works, they still had the Mandalorians organizing under an army under Cassus Fett, AKA the guy who taught the Mandalorians about logistics. You know, that one thing in war YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN'T FUCK UP? Mandalore the Ultimate even described it as "that basic word Cassus Fett uses" and he used that along with legends such as the legend of "Rohlan the questioner" to organize the Mandalorians into a unified army. So basically, they were already ditching the clan-based stuff for a unified army and navy where the Mandalorians acted as a unified force. 4000 years before the rise of the Empire. After they lost the Mandalorian Wars, Canderous rebuilt the Mandalorians on Mandalore the Ultimate's model.

As for TOR, the Mandalorians were scattered mercenaries and individuals who didn't even have a Mandalore until Imperial Intelligence played them like a fiddle and propped up a fake Mandalore via rigging gladiatorial matches. The guy who replaced said Mandalore continued the tradition and had the Mandalorians remain as a centralized army under his watch. In the New Sith Wars, at most, we got a mention of the Mandalorians being bought off by the Jedi to attack the Sith.

And of course, the other Clone Wars books barely mentioned Mandalorian involvement on behalf of Mandalore the Resurrector, some even had Boba Fett openly milling around, meeting guys like Anakin, and TCW had Boba Fett openly bounty-hunting AND the Death Watch/Pacifists ruling Mandalore.

NONE of these works had Traviss' version of the Mandalorians where they were a loose collection of clans that did whatever they did while someone who bore the title of Mandalore was around. Sure, Mandalorian clans existed, but they existed to serve Mandalore. At most, MAYBE you can argue that prior to Imperial Inteilligence creating their fake Mandalore, the clans may have been going off doing their own thing, but the lore videos for that talks about Mandalorian mercenaries as individuals and don't even mention clans. In those lore videos, there were Mandalorian mercenaries and bounty hunters who fought in gladiatorial arenas for blood, glory, and money-something Traviss doesn't have in her version of the Mandalorians. In KOTOR and Tales of the Jedi, they were an autocracy under one ruler who went on crusades. In TOR, they were individual mercenaries and bounty hunters who fought in gladiator matches for fame and glory until Imperial Intelligence manipulated them into rallying under a Mandalorian whom they propped up as Mandalore, and they went back to being an autocracy under a ruler. In TCW, they were split between a peaceful nation under one ruler, and a warlike force under one ruler, and even when Darth Maul sauntered in, no talk of appeasing or working with different clans came in, he just took control of Death Watch and became an absolute monarch, like Pre Vizsla and Duchess Satine before him. Even in Rebels, they acknowledge this when Sabine and Maul exchange eye contact and Maul recognizes his former subjects.

Maul: "A Mandalorian? You of all should trust me. For did I not once rule your people?"
Zeb: "Is that true?"
Sabine: "Unfortunately."

And of course, Mandalorians killing Jedi is rather rare in many of these works. At most, in TOR, they won ONE space battle against Jedi who were exhausted facing Sith 24/7, but they got their cans kicked by Republic grunts and smugglers, and in the main game, Mandalorian leaders like Ironfist and their forces get their cans kicked by Jedi, up-jumped Republic grunts, and smugglers with cheeky attitudes. In TOR's story mode they accomplished nothing, and the empire that paid them to help win the war was collapsing by the end of it. In Tales of the Jedi, they lost the war despite being backed up by Krath and Dark Jedi, and in the Mandalorian Wars, they only got far because the Jedi had cold feet getting into it, had the Jedi Council acted sooner, the war would have ended faster. In the KOTOR game proper, they were bandits who preyed on the weak and got their cans kicked by a Jedi player, and in KOTOR 2, the Jedi Revan had to install a new Mandalore to get the Mandalorians to rebuild and move away from mercenary work and banditry. In the New Sith Wars they had Jedi support. In Galidraan, 300 Mandalorians were exterminated by a couple dozen Jedi, and in TCW, even padawans like Ahsoka Tano kill/defeat Mandalorians rather easily. Even Kenobi, who was captured earlier by Mandalorians in an ambush, managed to hold off Mandalorian warriors with a blaster, which isn't his preferred weapon of choice. In the Original Trilogy Era, they were enslaved by the Empire and had to defeat the local Imperial garrison with ambushes and hit-and-run attacks, and in the Legacy Era, they were sent packing by Stormtroopers.

NONE of these eras had the Mandalorians defeat the Jedi in droves. At most, they caused some Jedi casualties in Galidraan and the Mandalorian Wars, and they defeated the Jedi ONCE in TOR, but in every other war against the Jedi, they lose in droves. Even in the Mandalorian Wars, they fought against a rogue sect of the Jedi Order which only had some support from the Jedi Council, and they lost so horribly that their chances of being a galactic superpower was lost. Forever.

Hence why I actually admired Canderous, because he's like Revan's version of General Grievous-he guts Sith for a living under Revan's command. But that makes him a rarity. Same with Jango Fett, Akaavi Spar, Sherruk, and a precious few other Mandalorians who have killed Jedi-they're not in the majority. Otherwise, in times like the Mandalorian Wars, you'd see even common soldiers kill Jedi and collect lightsabers like Sherruk and Grievous do. Instead, it's usually leaders like Canderous and Jango who kill Jedi, while the rest of the Mandos get slaughtered by the bucketloads like the Mandalorians at Galidraan by the Jedi.

Oh, and by the way, I've been meaning to say this, but the emoji thing really doesn't make you look smart. It makes you look like one of those hippie millennial kids who complain about capitalism while chugging gallons of Starbucks coffee.

!. Every official source lists there being 300 Mandalorians at Galidraan.
The fact that you are trying to pretend that there were less than 20 based on nothing more than how many bodies you can count in panels defies belief.
2. At best your arguments only paint Galidraan as a political debacle.
Not a military one.
It's closer to the Battle of Mogadishu or the Tet Offensive than Bunker Hill or Borodino.
It's a symbol of Republic corruption not Jedi incompetence or Mandalorian badassery.
The Jedi destroyed the Mandalorians and completed their mission.
The mission just happened to be under false pretenses and was ultimately needless.
3. You waifus are shit and their only purpose is job to the Jedi and be Sith attack dogs.
Even Space Marine fanboys are less slobberingly sycophantic and don't deny reality as much as Fandalorians do.

When people say that Leland Chee supports the 300 Mandalorians figure, that makes it canon to Legends. The man was in charge of the entire canon prior to the Disney buyout. That's as official as you can possibly make it. That, and at least one Jedi PADAWAN from Galidraan says she killed 20 Mandalorians there. That's obvious proof that there were more than 20. That, and Sneer's claim of less than 20 is him basing it on his biased view of Open Seasons, which doesn't show the whole picture as it FOCUSES ON JANGO FETT.

At least Space Marine fanboys don't deny 40K lore, much of which shows that Space Marines are strong. Fandalorians deny a large part of SW canon which shows the Jedi as competent military leaders.

I usually stay out of these little slap fights because I'm a Mando fan too although not nearly as obssessive, but cmon, those Ultramarine cocksuckers are just as bad as this guy. Smurf ass motherfuckers.

Ultramarine fans are not seen as the best in 40K fandom right now. Right now people bitch about the Ultramarines being the poster-children of 40K and they shit on Matt Ward who tries to make them look like the best. If anything, Matt Ward's fanboyism of the Ultramarines actually is supported by 40K lore, which sees them as the finest among Space Marines, whereas Karen Traviss trying to make the Jedi look bad contradicts SW canon which states that the Jedi were good for most of their tenure as galactic protectors, and even the OT had the quest of restoring the Jedi to power as the main goal, hence the last OT movie's title, "RETURN of the Jedi."
 
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