Oz Arts - Live Without Liam #16
This stream began with a fairly miserable start as both guests and the ostensible host Liam Gray bailed on attending the stream, the latter on the grounds of beefing on twitter with Frog about Frog not getting people's hopes up with offers of friendship and support he has no intent of fulfilling, to which Frog met Liam by saying he sounds like a jilted woman and "soy". While that was going on, Oz filled out his stream by talking shit about
Maganificent 7, which I joined in on, and interviewing random Comicsgaters "
rocket simp", "
Clownfish media" and "
GeekChorus". Rocket Simp seemed fairly normal, Clownfish came across as having some sort of undiagnosed mental disorder and GeekChorus, Frog's personal lounge singer, was suffering of stage nerves being interviewed on a livestream. It was about the 1 hour 55m mark when Oz Art was preparing to wrap up the stream and call it a night when Doug TenNapel, figure of platonic evil to the Comicsgate faithful, crashes the open streamyard.
Doug explained his reasons for showing up - he is doing some inking and is bored - while GeekChorus was clearly unprepared to deal with a mythological figure like Doug in his midst and bails out quickly. Oz though is game as he starts to ask questions about Doug's irregular brushwork technique, leading TenNapel to go into a diatribe about how indulging in the pleasure of freehand inking on instinct is ultimately detracting from his end output due to the absence of plodding and painstaking technique in his art, giving a bit of insight to the constant struggle with sin in Doug's mind. Oz awkwardly compares it to sex versus masturbation, slyly inferring that all this humblebragging about "just imagine how much better this would all look if I really tried" is just Doug jerking himself off while he inks (true). A number of subjects are rattled through in quick order, like Doug's experiences in the animation industry, why he didn't get into sports and his early career before starting his career as an artist.
In the second half of the one on one interview with Doug, Oz digresses towards Doug's feelings of being a pariah to Comicsgate fans; Doug's answer is gossamer-thin veiled contempt regarding the complaints' validity and that "only criticisms based on truth" get to him. The chat gets gradually more restless at why Oz isn't screaming at Doug or not asking more pertinent questions like why Doug decided to became traitor to Comicsgate. Oz instead talks about his own love of animation and ambitions to become an independent animator someday. Finally, Oz begins to question on Doug's feelings of becoming the embodiment of evil in Comicsgate. Doug says he's at peace with the demoniacal role assigned to him; he's labelled as lord of evil in all sorts of SJW groups and at least here he isn't getting fired from his job so it's all something he can accept. Doug explains that he left Comicsgate because "it is not him" but has no ill-will towards people in it. But with the slightest of prodding, Doug continues to explain that he feels that Comicsgate creators treat their customers like "paypigs" and that it fosters an environment where youtube drama and attention trump merit and quality. Most of the chat starts to chant the refrain that Doug "lost money" because he betrayed CG despite making substantially more money on his campaigns
after he left CG.
There are some more questions about errors in the past like the BFB international shipping debacle (Doug didn't factor in shipping costs for his BFB campaign) which got Sketch Therapy to declare a one-man-war on Doug and that he plans to rectify this by sending all his backers a free copy of Bigfoot Bill whether they requested a refund or not. Doug complains about the selective and politically motivated outrage applied to him when people like Andrew Huerta do not claim Comicsgate and never released a book to
anyone while being propped up as "CGOnly".
At around the third hour, Oz opens the floor to guests who want to cross-examine Doug, first joined by "
Well Read User1", a rare species of pro-Smiller Comicsgater. Well Read wants to go over his interpretation of the history of Comicsgate with Doug which prompts Oz to duck out to take a fistful of drugs. He recalls his own mixed feelings about Frog being synonymous with Comicsgate, but says that the principle issue that divided Doug from the rest of Comicsgate was Doug not thanking Frog at San Diego ComicCon 2019. Doug's response was that he had quietly left Comicsgate with Frog's knowledge before SDCC 2019 so there was no reason for him to be promoting CG at that panel, but Frog spun this into a traitor narrative anyway; furthermore the panel was originally made to honor Billy Tucci with a bunch of other non-CG crowdfunders so he felt it would have been an breach of propriety to bring controversy like Frog into it. At some point "
Twitless" (a self professed 'normie whisperer') and
Dave Bowser (?) join and contribute fuck all as Doug continues laying out his perspective of events in that at some point no matter how much money Frog may have brought in for one campaign, would it purchase his permission to sit back while his friends are attacked?
At the 3:23 mark, a pro-CG defense force of the belligerent daydrunk
"Berserk Guts", infamous troon gayopper
reinoe and America's answer to Ryzie Lee "
J-Money"/Justin McClure are brought in to defend the honor of Comicsgate. Berserk Guts, already visibly angry, is the first to go at Doug, recounting his experiences of being in high school and sticking up for nerds who read gay shit like Game of Thrones and that Twitless is a weak pussy who would have never stood up for anyone; he also wans to know if showing up on the Oz show is Doug's attempt to try and get backers for a new crowdfund. Doug says he originally joined because he wanted to raise money but left because of a conflict in values. J-Money jumps in with the argument that everyone else has formed a consensus that Doug betrayed Comicsgate after getting his money, and that Doug is "living in a different reality" by going against that consensus. Doug finds Berserk Guts' question that at least doesn't deny the existence of objective reality more interesting and answers that good customer relations are good for business. J-Money interjects by pointing out that it was bad for business for Doug to leave CG after getting his project funded and become a backstabbing ingrate traitor who doesn't appreciate his customers. Doug says that perhaps positions are being attributed to him unfairly, but J-Money pushes his assertion that turning on backers and people that trusted him is a bad business move; Doug claims inability to comprehend the profoundly retarded strawman J-Money is throwing out there and reinoe seizes this opportunity to take control of the conversation.
Reinoe's argument that attacking Comicsgate as an SJW movement was "a broadbased attack against thousand of people", to which Doug responds that he considers Frog to be Comicsgate and that calling him a homophobe was an SJW move. J-Money accuses Doug of being a grifter retroactively because of all that money Doug collected
before Frog called Doug a homophobe. Doug doesn't really address this "point" and instead makes the assertion that he shows respect for the customer by ensuring they get the highest quality product possible for their $25. Berserk Guts follows this up asks if Doug had gay yaoi experiences in his youth, much to Doug's amusement.
Next up is
smilingbandito, an obscure CG Sophist / WC apologist. He starts by asking Doug what makes crowdfunding possible; Doug answers that a small handful of silicon valley crowdfund companies/payment processors under constant pressure to cancel him because of his anti-gay marriage stance are. Smilingbandito sort of barrels through with his "it's the community that lets you crowdfund" lecture anyway but Berserk Guts cuts him off to compliment memer/clout chaser Deadwood Dale on his awesome Sketch Therapy and Jon Malin impersonations. Oz takes a rare intervention in the conversation to query Dale about his association in the Sketch Squad along with Adam Post in opposition to all things Liamoz Hennycuck. Dale is evasive about his dual loyalties in the Sketch-Liam war, but finds himself playing apologist for Sketch though he has attacked most of the people on the show at some point as nerkish discord infiltrator.
Reinoe wrangles the subject away from whether or not Dale is the willing thrall of Sketch Therapy (yes) by pointing out that Doug was in no position to criticize
Cyberfrog:
Bloodhoney for being 18 months lates when
Bigfoot Bill had unfulfilled international backers, to which Doug replies that the double standard and selective outrage to those two things was actually making his point for him. Smilingbandito doubles down on reinoe's behalf by making the ridiculous claim that the two issues were criticized equally within the Comicsgate community. Next up was a question from the chat on whether Doug hates gay people or not - Doug says no. Berserk Guts asks for Doug's take on the possibility of Mike S Miller having a secret gay double life with gay prostitutes and stuff. Also no. Doug again asserts that he made more money on campaigns after leaving CG than when he was in, so how exactly did he "use and then betray a community that saved him" when their contribution to his bottom line proved marginal at best?
Before this question could be adequately explored, Doug's claim that Comicsgate calling him a "homophobe" making them a crypto-SJW movement is brought into question. Berserk Guts found it excusable because the intent was insult Doug and make him mad. J-Money claims the being slurred homophobe as a pretext to betray his CG supporters and smilingbandito engages in next level sophistry by making the vague assertion that "words aren't problems people are". Doug presses on with his claim that 'homophobia' is a term invented by SJWs to frame christianity as a mental disorder and that movements that employ their language are gay rainbow movements whether they know it or not. Reinoe says something about how the spartans were based gays, but is cut off "J-Money" again argues his democratic stance on mattes like truth and reality and that since the majority of people (within CG) think Doug is a traitor it is therefore true.
Reinoe actually breaks rank to back up the assertion that objective reality and truth exist because otherwise that would mean everything everyone says about Ya Boi Zack and Comicsgate would therefore be true. Bandito however yells "no the majority of the people sided with Zack even if the pros didn't" so consensus reality still works. Smilingbandito then throws out the additional claim that "Cecil always liked you Doug" though Cecil now drunkenly rambles about "how I saw through Doug from day one", but this gets dismissed by TenNapel off-hand. Motives for the "Dirtworm Dug" ashcan for Cecil are inquired, Doug answers that Cecil's motive was spite and intent to deal emotional harm, which was met with the panel saying with some incredulity it was just jokes and memes and no ill-intent from Cecil. Doug points out into what a weeping pussy Cecil turned into when such "jokes" were directed at him. Next up was Doug's engineering of the Ribbitcoin fiasco as intent to cancel Frog on charges of fraud; Doug says he thought it was funny to force Roiloup to buy a Ribbitcoin in exchange for original EWJ art, where he took it from there had nothing to do with Doug. At around 4:27 Reinoe is quizzed about why people in the chat are being skeptical when he wants to share screenshots. He feigns total ignorance as to why anyone would be and then rages at the shitposters who would dare impugn his reputation.
At around 4:40
Mike S Miller joins the chat to criticize my number crunching for
MAGAnficent 7 at the beginning of the show, stating that 54 backers purchased invisible secret tiers not visible to the public that were available only to those on his pre-order mailing list. I corrected my mistake in assuming Mike only had 14 tiers on his campaign. The chat segues to Ya Boi Zack, calling him "cuntish", and why Zack is not subject to criticism for decisions that are not optimal towards making money; Berserk Guts is getting "mean drunk" at this point and accuses Doug of "being jelly" of Zack's (much smaller) success. It's at this point where Smiller joins the stream. He seems enthused at the results of
MAGA7. Oz invites Mike onto his show but he refuses to wake up before 1 PM for peak Smiller streaming hours of 11PM-4AM, the optimal time to build one's platform to market one's product in Mike's mind. The previous tension in the room drains out as Mike's kumquat theft is discussed and then everyone is regaled with Deaadwood Dale's Malin and Sketch impersonations.
The show starts on a new, weird dimension as Mike regales about the CG Christian Fellowship he headed with his program
Cross Examinations which Sketch and Liam were
both part of until Mike began feuding with Warcampaign which resulted in the both of them leaving. Doug chides "Smiller" for daring to impugn the faith of either upstanding Comicsgater. Even Reinoe is feeling the love and attempts to bond by saying Warcampaign selfdestructed harder then Mike ever did. Berserk Guts and Deadwood Dale go so far as to try and pressure Mike to declare himself Comicsgate again. Mike questions the worth of joining a group that has no agreed upon definition and J-Money responds by asking why does Mike hate customers. Doug joins in asking Mike that question. However this brief interlude with comity is broken up by Dale who doggedly sealions Smiller demanding sources for Frog's reaction to the "Pride is a sin" tweet was based on him saying that expressing Christian sentiments was divisive. This goes on for some bit until Doug stands up for Mike saying that the argument that Comicsgaters should self-censor in the name of preventing the alienation of potential customers is a false one given the silence surrounding Frog's regular offensive and sacrilegious statements against Christians, who are customers.
Dale and J-Money however remain fixated on the argument that because Doug and Mike distanced themselves from CG and cost themselves (well, Mike) money, they were in the wrong. This debate on the existence of non-prosperity based morality goes on for some time until Reinoe breaks the stalemate at around 5:41 by turning on teammate Berserk Guts for no real reason other that he's arguing that Mike should "be himself" while simultaneously complaining about Mike being himself (a "douchebag troll") which devolves into a shouting match between the two. Reinoe gets a surprise assist from Warcampaign in defense of Mike S Miller's right to make political comics as up is down and black is white, the words "faggot" and "retard" are flung freely between the former allies. His/her mission complete, reinoe takes xis leave.
Next on the table is the matter of free association between Doug TenNapel and contact with other members of Comicsgate. Doug points out that he talks regularly with
Antonio Brice of Ikari Press. J Money corrects Doug by saying that Brice has left Comicsgate and is "no longer with us". Brice, who was in the chat, states that "J-Money is fucking lying". J-Money doubles down that Brice is not a member of Comicsgate because he got angry during a livestream, he could no longer be considered CG. Doug gets increasingly annoyed at this, but J-Money is incapable of admitting error and is can only press forward in his retardation.
Frog appears at this point to give an update that New Jersey is under attack from a storm and half the city is suffering from a power outage and he's broadcasting from his SUV, but nothing is going to keep him out of a drama stream of this magnitude as he rushes home from the local KFC through hurricane winds. He adds that Comicsgaters should be able to make whatever comics they want, political or not, but it's generally a suboptimal approach with a max draw of ~$30K. But if Mike wants to do that it's fine. Doug brings up Richard C Meyer now dedicating his time to political hot takes with works like Pandemic and the Ballad of No and that artists just want to create.
Antonio Brice joins the stream after Frog leaves to clear up "Mister Dolla's bullshit". J-Money accuses Brice of the experience of being a creator having changed him Brice argues that he in fact has not changed and will not take shit from anyone for any reason and fuck the idea that he's supposed to let people get away with lying about him because they're a "customer". For some reason Antonio is concerned with KiwiFarms talking about him and talking shit about why Brand 2 failed to fund. Nasser slips in at this point but doesn't have much to add. Doug joins in and says if money is a metric of success, well he raised 230k on his last campaign and 800k on the one before that without CG so what does J-Money the "dress wearing, juicebox drinking crybaby weirdo little weirdo with a lollypop" have to say to that? Dan Fraga is the only one supporting J-Money from the chat at this point. J-Money denies he ever said Antonio Brice left Comicsgate, which sends Brice into a fit. J-Money expresses outrage that creators like Brice and Doug and Miller that once they get funded start calling "the customer" (him) liars and dismissing "the customer" (him) as retards and idiots. Berserk Guts enters the "weepy drunk" stage and bemoans why Mike won't be himself but also not create apolitical content.
Edit:
During the last half-hour of the stream after J-Money was finally booted after ordering Frog to shut the fuck up, Mike asserts that he was vindicated after he incorrectly credits Oz for posting the additional Praetorian DM logs (actually hosted on
@VIkkiVerse 's channel) confirm that the CGAnon account, used to conspire with renfamous and other anti-CG SJWs against opponents of Warcampaign, was shared by all of WC and not just Praetorian. Frog replies that he was not presented with that additional information at the time and that Edwin and Mike gave him no sources with which to cross-examine what evidence was provided pre-Fall of Rome. Frog has a point in that he cannot be held to blame for not retroactively acting on information that was revealed later.
But Frog also goes on to state that prior to Mike's presenting of claims, Warcampaign announced to him that they were putting Mike, presumably after some routing doxing of Smiller, was put on "financial investigation" over possibly not being able to fulfill Lonestar and that this gave justifiable suspicions on Frog's part. It should be pointed out that in the thirteen months since this "investigation" was announced not a single scrap of evidence backing this assertion has been presented to anyone while every conservative plug of Lonestar on social media was hounded by unsolicited, unfounded smears of Lonestar's funds being embezzled by Mike (later changed to "seized by the IRS") while Cridious and Andrew Huerta and their non-fulfilled campaigns somehow escaped detection from the Warcampaign Revenue Service. So although Frog rejected the truth for some extremely suspicious allegations, he would assert that it was one party's word against another's and he went with the one that piqued his suspicions less.
Nasser voices his boredom on this subject and doesn't actually care why Mike left CG a year ago while
Micah Curtis joins to defend Frog and attack Nasser by smuckling and taunting both him and Mike on the fact he is physically larger than them and would likely come out on top in a physical altercation. That, as a matter of fact, he will not shut up and that no party in the room is strong enough to physically force Micah to shut up. Doug is ecstatic over getting to be on a stream with Micah. Mike continues to push the argument that Frog should have turned against Warcampaign
then based on what he knows
now because he's bad at arguing until Twitless has to start handing Mike while Frog goes after BeanFromPA who is in the chat.
Oz starts to wrap the stream up as Frog continues needling Mike in the chat, hoping to get these guests on at a future date, with Oz taking particular interest in having Mike and Nasser over at a future date.
