Law Hate Speech leads to violence. Why would liberals defend it? - Free speech is gay

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...speech-violence-liberals-rightwing-extremists
Britain’s banning of three rightwing extremists has been criticised, but why not – the right to a platform isn’t absolute

‘Last Sunday Tommy Robinson, the former leader of the English Defence League, gave the speech at Speakers’ Corner that would have been delivered by one of those denied entry.’ Photograph: Steve Parkins/Rex/Shutterstock
The Home Office doesn’t often get it right – but by declining to indulge the muddled preciousness that surrounds the freedom of speech debate, it has done so. In the space of a fortnight, four extreme-right figures have been turned away at the UK border. The latest was the founder of the German far-right group Pegida. On Monday Lutz Bachmann was denied entry to the UK, and deported. He had been due to give a speech at Speakers’ Corner in London’s Hyde Park in London, but his presence was deemed “not conducive to the public good”.

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Founder of German far-right group Pegida denied entry to UK
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Bachmann was to have addressed a “free speech” rally. It’s not clear how this was different to any other rally, other than by framing any opposition to it as censorship. Characters such as Bachmann are no innocents practising their freedom of speech: they are cynical exploiters of it. They’re little better than loiterers waiting round the corner to jump on your windshield, pretending to be hurt, shaking you down for money. It’s a scam, trading notoriety and worse for attention. Why do we fall for it?

Most freedom of speech debates now start on the false premise that denying someone a platform is censorship. So we must begin with the correct one, which is that freedom of speech is freedom from punishment. If you are not being convicted and penalised by the state for speaking, then you have freedom of speech. If just one channel of speech has been denied to you, you still have freedom of speech. We’re not talking pulping Lady Chatterley’s Lover here. The disappeared of Egypt, the jailed and flogged blasphemers of Saudi Arabia, the arbitrarily detained bloggers and journalists of China are being denied freedom of speech. It’s an insult to their ordeals that we equate them with shutting down Milo Yiannopoulos’s Twitter account. Over the past month, while travelling in north Africa, I was unable to access a host of mainstream news sites that had been blocked by national governments. That is censorship. This is not that complicated.

But it’s the “thin end of the wedge”, we’re told. If we start banning those whose views we don’t like, what next? In general, one should be suspicious of “what next?” arguments, because they assume that humans are incapable of behaving in calibrated ways that don’t inevitably lead to some future state of fascism. We could extend the right to platform and rally to all, but what next? Paedophile rallies? That’s obviously absurd, but it highlights the fact that there are limits, and they are broadly dictated by how much certain values are coded within society. The reason free speech proponents are not out there fighting to hear from child abusers or some radical Muslim clerics is because society or the law regulate the more unpalatable or illegal views away before we have to deal with them at Speakers’ Corner.

In On Liberty, John Stuart Mill, one of the great defenders of free speech, says a struggle always occurs between the competing demands of authority and liberty. He argues that we cannot have the latter without the former: “All that makes existence valuable to anyone depends on the enforcement of restraints upon the actions of other people. Some rules of conduct, therefore, must be imposed – by law in the first place, and by opinion on many things which are not fit subjects for the operation of law.”

But we’re far from that. Freedom of speech is no longer a value. It has become a loophole exploited with impunity by trolls, racists and ethnic cleansing advocates. They are aided by the group I call useful liberals – the “defend to the death your right to say it” folk. The writer Mari Uyehara calls them the “free speech grifters”, those “who flog PC culture as a singularly eminent threat to the freedom of expression”. To them, the “what next?” argument foresees apocalyptic harm that might befall liberal values. It cares much less about speech we can link to violence, or that which compromises the safety of others.


Last Sunday Tommy Robinson, the former leader of the English Defence League whose social media posts were cited repeatedly in the trial of the Finsbury Park terrorist Darren Osborne, gave the speech at Speakers’ Corner that would have been delivered by one of those denied entry – the Austrian Martin Sellner, a leader of the white supremacist group Generation Identity. Useful liberals have swallowed two freedom of speech myths whole: the redefinition of the term to encompass not only freedom from persecution but the right to a platform; and the delusion that freedom of speech is a neutral principle uncontaminated by history or social bias. There are hard choices here. Too often, those who should know better argue for the wrong ones. They fight to their deaths to defend the rights of Bachmann, Sellner and the other peddlers of hate – but not mine.
 
Article said:
Most freedom of speech debates now start on the false premise that denying someone a platform is censorship. So we must begin with the correct one, which is that freedom of speech is freedom from punishment. If you are not being convicted and penalised by the state for speaking, then you have freedom of speech. If just one channel of speech has been denied to you, you still have freedom of speech.
...is this what Brits actually believe? That the government can prohibit you from saying certain things but you still have "freedom of speech?"

Dear God. There's a reason why "freedom of speech" is often written to include things such as press, assembly, religion, expression, etc.

edit: Essentially what this article is saying is "yeah the government just shut down your event/assembly and deported the people who wanted to speak at it, but nobody went to jail so it's not real punishment and you still have freedom of speech." Never heard a bigger load of bullshit in my life.
 
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I certainly am shedding no tears for these individuals who espouse radical ideas and then blubber "but muh freeze peach" when they're told to fuck off, but isn't Speakers' Corner an area of the park where expressing opinions and encouraging debate (however shocking and bad they are) have been traditionally encouraged? If anything, hearing what terrible people say and how they frame their arguments ought to help equip you to defend your own. That's to say nothing of the way I think the stink that's made over these folks just draws impressionable people to them all the more, because now it's edgy and forbidden and "WHAT THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW."
 
I certainly am shedding no tears for these individuals who espouse radical ideas and then blubber "but muh freeze peach" when they're told to fuck off, but isn't Speakers' Corner an area of the park where expressing opinions and encouraging debate (however shocking and bad they are) have been traditionally encouraged? If anything, hearing what terrible people say and how they frame their arguments ought to help equip you to defend your own. That's to say nothing of the way I think the stink that's made over these folks just draws impressionable people to them all the more, because now it's edgy and forbidden and "WHAT THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW."
While I think the guys sprouting this crap are dumbasses, let them embarrass themselves. As long as they aren't behaving like the WBC or physically harming people.
 
I certainly am shedding no tears for these individuals who espouse radical ideas and then blubber "but muh freeze peach" when they're told to fuck off, but isn't Speakers' Corner an area of the park where expressing opinions and encouraging debate (however shocking and bad they are) have been traditionally encouraged? If anything, hearing what terrible people say and how they frame their arguments ought to help equip you to defend your own. That's to say nothing of the way I think the stink that's made over these folks just draws impressionable people to them all the more, because now it's edgy and forbidden and "WHAT THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW."
Not to mention that outright banning this speech is only going to reinforce their beliefs rather than make them think "i did a bad". You should never force someone to conform to a belief, but rather try to convince them or befriend them to do so. That works 100 times better than violence.
 
If you believe that hate speech should be censored and silenced, what do you intend to do when you happen to be on the "wrong" side of an issue and your opinions are considered hate speech? Who gets to decide what is considered hate speech? Who would you even trust to make that determination?
 
The problem with censorship is that it arguably gives more power to the people you're trying to silence. Think back to all the times you ever hear the moral police complaining about something like video games, movies, music, etc. Every time they do it, it brings more attention to it and the thing arguably gets more popular.

Furthermore, silencing hate speech silences debate, and when debate is silenced both sides turn extreme. The people doing hate speech only become more hateful and may even become violent now that they have no platform while the ones doing the censorship turn their gaze to other opinions they don't like.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the UK's sudden attack on free speech is more than a little disconcerting.
 
The problem with censorship is that it arguably gives more power to the people you're trying to silence. Think back to all the times you ever hear the moral police complaining about something like video games, movies, music, etc. Every time they do it, it brings more attention to it and the thing arguably gets more popular.

Furthermore, silencing hate speech silences debate, and when debate is silenced both sides turn extreme. The people doing hate speech only become more hateful and may even become violent now that they have no platform while the ones doing the censorship turn their gaze to other opinions they don't like.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the UK's sudden attack on free speech is more than a little disconcerting.
It's almost as if they're asking for Nazi Britain like the one from V for Vendetta.
 
"Hate speech" is a dumb concept.

You should never force someone to conform to a belief, but rather try to convince them or befriend them to do so. That works 100 times better than violence.
It's not that it "works" better than violence. The former will lead to violence eventually because you can't force someone to accept a belief. All you can do is stop them from admitting in public to what they really think. People don't refrain from talking about "forbidden" concepts when they're made forbidden by law, they just do it in private (where often there's nobody there to argue against really bad ideas). You either convince your enemies with better arguments in the public square or you get eventual, violent backlash after the opposition has time to fester and radicalize in private.

The far left doesn't understand that or doesn't care because they're authoritarian pussies who want nothing more than for a big, strong alpha to keep them safe and punish their enemies no matter the cost.

It's almost as if they're asking for Nazi Britain like the one from V for Vendetta.

Of course they want that, secretly. Haven't you noticed how far leftists are always preoccupied with a "right-wing hate" wave that never comes? It's all they're prepared for. Why wouldn't they want it to happen? It would be the perfect excuse to go full-out authoritarian and bring the boot down on their enemies.

That would be a fucking disaster for the British people. It wouldn't work so well in a massively armed America, thank goodness, but I really fear for our English brothers.
 
Plenty of what was once abhorrent views are now part our societies' core values and is better for it. We shouldn't consider ourselves to have all the answers or that we're aware of our faults, history should prove we're not.

And to reject freedom of speech would be to harm the ability of those unjustly marginalized, both current and future, to make themselves heard even if we have to endure plenty of stupid shit from those not as well. It's those that will be primarily hurt by this, not the Sellners of the world.

Regressive is such an apt moniker.
 
I remember when they banned Michael Savage and how pissed he was over being on a list with Islamic extremists and the WBC. Now post-ISIS, they roll out the red carpet for the former. I'd hope this whole fiasco unravels, but being that there's no intention of honoring Brexit, what do you expect?
 
If you believe that hate speech should be censored and silenced, what do you intend to do when you happen to be on the "wrong" side of an issue and your opinions are considered hate speech? Who gets to decide what is considered hate speech? Who would you even trust to make that determination?
ffs, they're treating orwell's 1984 as an Instruction manual rather than a cautionary tale.:stress::horrifying:(:_(
 
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