Terminator: Dark Fate - Cause we need another one of these apparently.

[JohnDoe]

You don't have to justify your hatred of a white male savior, my dude. Mental illness has no internal logic, we understand. Just take your troon pills and lithium, please.

so this movie is just gonna be a "it was okay. couldve been worse" movie isnt it?

Even forgiving the "completely shitting on the prior movies and characters TLJ style" angle, it's bad. The dialog is stilted, the characters have no depth, the plot is illogical and when it makes sense it's direct lifts, the action is weightless and without tension. It's just bad from the word go.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

Right, so T2 didn't spend 2 minutes forcing John to contemplate leaving his mother behind. Because the natural response for John is to go save her, it isn't a real choice. I disagree; a choice is a choice. Having John weigh the decision for more than a minute would make him a shittier person, someone more inclined to value his own life than risk it for someone he loves. Being natural, or of decent character, shouldn't be a disqualification should it? Because if so, then that should also apply to Luke, who did love his friends and was a man of decent character.

It's different from Sarah's morally dubious choice of killing Dyson, something John was a lot more clear about. Sarah was motivated by a recurring nightmare, as well as her own experience in T1. John is motivated by simply loving his mother & regretting not having believed in her.

Right but the problem is
"I am a protagonist and I do what is right" not only A ) isnt a good or well written character B ) it goes against what they established for John earlier [as a thief and a hoodlum]

If they took that two extra minutes of showing the non bad boy side of John you could sell that.

Sarah had an arc over 2 movies. Going to kill Dyson is her becoming the Terminator and John bringing her back from the edge. Again your stuff is on point but its not really in the movie [prob cause a kid actor couldnt pull it off]

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

No: There was no chance in T2 (as constructed) they werent saving Sarah. So it wasnt an actual choice



But some sacrifices make it so what your fighting for has become invalidated. If Sarah kills Miles she is no better then skynet. If Miles allows his work to continue then he is responsible for the consequences. If the T800 stays with John it knows Skynet will just come back.....etc

You're essentially saying that reasons and motivations preclude agency when being presented with a choice. That's pretty ridiculous, tbh.

Second Paragraph was a theme

Machines will sacrifice anything

Humans know their are some sacrifices that are to big.

And to my first Paragraph:

The movie never entertained the Idea Sarah Connor wasnt going to get saved by the T800 and John. Part of the value of the T800 was in her incredible reaction to it. But the movie doesnt even have John being resentful of his mother even though he knows she wasnt REALLY crazy ((ok she kind of was)).

and while SAVING John is the prime programming point to do that he is going to need lots of weapons. Which Sarah has. So this would be a time where the machine points out the tactical necessity for her survival. Their are enough points where John humanizes uncle bob you don't need that.....and this would be John actually making a choice and going through with some struggles as a character.

Also it would allow you to handwave John being reactive to the Miles Dyson incident later as John almost sacrificed his mother for his own safety and he can't do that again which would parallel Sarah's same Revelation in Myles' house.

If a character doesnt have a realistic reason to make both choices then the movie is taking us on a railroad....and thats fine....but that makes john more foil then proper character. And he is a bit of a Messiah figure as he leads others to their humanity. But he leads them from an unearned position kinda sorta

That's an insanely long way of saying "The character has no choice cause he has to do what's written in the script".
And of course, this whole point makes little sense. John had, without breaking into a prolonged song-and-dance-number sufficient motivations and reasons to do what he did - or - to do something else.

The audience usually doesn't need "He loves his mom" or "He does not want to die" spelled out to them...

What would motivate John (based on his established character) to abandon his mother?
What would motivate John (based on his established character) to save his mother?

He saves his mother because he saves her....he doesnt have a reason so its not a real choice.
At no point does he consider NOT saving his mother so again...not a real choice
And and no point does the reality of the film give you a sense he isnt going to save his mother

I don't give neg-rates easily, but this is frankly so dumb, it deserved the rating.

Again: Does he have to break into a 15 minute song-and-dance about his woeful, woeful choice of his mothers live or his own safety?
You essentially fault this character for having a strong love for his mother and thus acting quickly and not entertaining the idea of not saving her.

Sarah had an arc over 2 movies. Going to kill Dyson is her becoming the Terminator and John bringing her back from the edge.

Oh wait, so now you're saying he did have agency and made a choice and he had an impact on what was going on after all?
Well gee.

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

Right but the problem is
"I am a protagonist and I do what is right" not only A ) isnt a good or well written character B ) it goes against what they established for John earlier [as a thief and a hoodlum]

For A), it sounds like you're implying he's a Gary Stu because he loves his mom. This dovetails into my answer for B), which is that even bad boys can love their momma. This is really reaching here dude.

If they took that two extra minutes of showing the non bad boy side of John you could sell that.

This is where we come back to the start of the circle, though. We did essentially have that scene after John got rescued, and it started with this line:

"Look, Todd and Janelle are dicks, but I gotta warn them."

He's not a sociopath. He doesn't like his foster parents, but he doesn't want them horribly murdered either. This shouldn't need 2 more minutes of exposition to establish. You're arguing as if the theatrical cut went from the canal chase scene and straight to Pescadero, with nothing in between.

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

You're essentially saying that reasons and motivations preclude agency when being presented with a choice. That's pretty ridiculous, tbh.

No I am saying reasons and motivations are necessary for agency [no motives you don't have any agency]

That's an insanely long way of saying "The character has no choice cause he has to do what's written in the script".

CLOSE, character is only doing something because its what the script needs for a movie to happen and so motives and structure are haphazardly slapped togther on the back end

The audience usually doesn't need "He loves his mom" or "He does not want to die" spelled out to them...

But john had massive abandonment issues....and he was scared. Thats what should have played out

You essentially fault this character for having a strong love for his mother and thus acting quickly and not entertaining the idea of not saving her.

I am saying being good because your the (or a) protagonist is bad writing.

Oh wait, so now you're saying he did have agency and made a choice and he had an impact on what was going on after all?
Well gee.

No he was reactive. His foil to her inhumanity lead her to use her agency.

For A), it sounds like you're implying he's a Gary Stu because he loves his mom. This dovetails into my answer for B), which is that even bad boys can love their momma. This is really reaching here dude.

Doing the right thing ala a Gary Stu isnt motivation.

"Look, Todd and Janelle are dicks, but I gotta warn them."

That scene and the sequence that flowed from it made sense. They didn't connect it to the Sarah scene well. I'll have to see if I can find my copy with the deleted scenes because I think there was some connective tissue that was cut.

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

He wasn't abandoned by Sarah, though. He was taken away from her and given to foster parents, after being told his whole life up to that point was a lie. This is fairly evident well before we get to that scene before Pescadero. One deleted scene with Sarah even has her spell this out to the ghost of Kyle Reese when he asks her, "Where's our son, Sarah?"

I don't see what's so Gary Stu about him realizing those people were wrong and his mom was right all along. That alone is enough for him to say, "My mom doesn't belong in a mental institution" and decides, with his new T-800 to order around, to get her out. This is even before the T-800 objects and points out that the T-1000 will definitely try to reacquire him there.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

CLOSE, character is only doing something because its what the script needs for a movie to happen and so motives and structure are haphazardly slapped togther on the back end

Sorry, but do you really need the protagonist to spell out the concept of loving one's mother to you for you to put 2 and 2 together to figure out why said character has some sort of interest in protecting her?

I am saying being good because your the (or a) protagonist is bad writing.

So his only way of not falling under that ridiculous asspull of a condition is to be a dick and let her die? That's fucking stupid.

Doing the right thing ala a Gary Stu isnt motivation.

"He did the right thing and after carefully bending over backwards and ignoring all possible motivations that character might have, he had no reason to do so. Geez, he's a real gary stu!"
You might wanna read up what a Gary Stu is.

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

I just wanna say that this is a fascinating discussion. I never thought the idea that John wasn't a real or well-written character could be argued like this. I can see the TV Trope community arguing it because of muh tropes & the shill media argue it because they're woke bigoted fucks, but this is the first time I've contended with a genuine argument on where, how, or why he falls short as a character.

I could accept that Sarah was the main character in T1 and T2, but I still think there's a built-in passing of the torch from her to John throughout the entire narrative. We only got to see the beginnings of that with T2, which is part of why every sequel since then has been disappointing. T2 is effectively the end of the story of SkyNet and John Connor, but you still have the unexplored stories of previous possible time loops and the progression of the Future War itself pre-T1/T2.

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

TheTerminatorFans delivers an effective critique of Tim Miller's comments about the T2 "thumbs up" ending:

Tim Miller: Love for Terminator 2’s Thumbs Up Scene is a “Symptom” of Age

Terminator: Dark Fate Director Tim Miller shares his thoughts on a classic Terminator 2 moment.

www.theterminatorfans.com

These guys are great. They don't have a big following, but they're the most genuine & dedicated real-talk Terminator fan site I know of so far. I remember them getting shit on by Redditors and called "unreliable" when they reported on Dark Fate, but in the end they were right about how Dark Fate would turn out, making the Redditors look like studio plants. They reported on and speculated ever leak without definitively saying this or that one were correct, and I've never seen them cuck out or settle for less.

 

[The handsome tard]

Here is just an insulting lack of attention to detail.
If Carl knew of other terminators being sent to the past like him...how the hell didnt Uncle Bob (the T800 from T2) knew about them too? After the T1000 was destroyed, he would inform or remind them that there are more terminators and they should be ready for them.
Hello, Tim Miller? Is anyone one there? *knocking on his head* Hello!Mc Miller! Hello!

Edit: actually, if Dark Fate was aware of this and actually had Sarah, Uncle Bob and an adult John fighting terminators, constantly trying to stop judgement day...holy shit, that sounds good (or at least better than what we got). its basically "What if Uncle Bob didnt sacrifice itself in T2"

 

[Jub-Jub]

This dude is used by r/boxoffice as a China source. China isn't saving this and Terminator could be beaten out by an anime film. Saw other rumors earlier that pre-sales are on track with Maleficent 2, which grossed $22m opening weekend and fits with this assessment. For comparison Genysis made $27m in China on opening day.

 

[LightDragonman1]

Hey, I just realized something. This film features the killing off of a beloved character just to make way for new ones that are considered more "hip " and "in with the times", retcons a lot of the themes and world-building of the previous films, and completely wastes a potentially interesting villain. Also, apparently, there where major issues involving creative differences behind the scenes of the film.

You know what other movie featured all that? Blade Trinity.

You know who wrote that film? David S. Goyer, AKA, the head writer for Dark Fate.
....
....
....
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...............................Dang it, why does this guy still get to work on my favorite series just so he can ruin them?

 

[Poe-Shen Zcela]

He's the Chosen Goy.

Which Blade is the one that ends with a vampire exploding due to lethal injection? I fucking loved that fight.

View attachment 991324
This dude is used by r/boxoffice as a China source. China isn't saving this and Terminator could be beaten out by an anime film. Saw other rumors earlier that pre-sales are on track with Maleficent 2, which grossed $22m opening weekend and fits with this assessment. For comparison Genysis made $27m in China on opening day.

Nice to know that Dark Fate's gonna pass like a fart in the dark.

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

He's the Chosen Goy.

Which Blade is the one that ends with a vampire exploding due to lethal injection? I fucking loved that fight.



Nice to know that Dark Fate's gonna pass like a fart in the dark.

First one. Blade injected him with a syringe by roundhouse-kicking it into his head.

 

[LightDragonman1]

That film and Blade 2 where saved due to Stephen Norrington and Guillermo Del Toro respectively adding their own notes and the like to Goyer's scripts. With Blade Trinity, which Dark Fate seems to feel the most like for the above reasons I mentioned, not so much (him directing that film himself also didn't help.)

 

[Dom Cruise]

Hey, I just realized something. This film features the killing off of a beloved character just to make way for new ones that are considered more "hip " and "in with the times", retcons a lot of the themes and world-building of the previous films, and completely wastes a potentially interesting villain. Also, apparently, there where major issues involving creative differences behind the scenes of the film.

You know what other movie featured all that? Blade Trinity.

You know who wrote that film? David S. Goyer, AKA, the head writer for Dark Fate.
....
....
....
....
...............................Dang it, why does this guy still get to work on my favorite series just so he can ruin them?

Remember when Wesley Snipes trolled Goyer by refusing to open his eyes during one scene, so they had to CGI him opening his eyes?

 

[Munchingonfish]

View attachment 991324
This dude is used by r/boxoffice as a China source. China isn't saving this and Terminator could be beaten out by an anime film. Saw other rumors earlier that pre-sales are on track with Maleficent 2, which grossed $22m opening weekend and fits with this assessment. For comparison Genysis made $27m in China on opening day.

What happens after this movie flops? Is this series finally going to die? Are they going to shit out another movie that ignores the existence of the shitty ones?

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

What happens after this movie flops? Is this series finally going to die? Are they going to shit out another movie that ignores the existence of the shitty ones?

I saw an article that one of the co-creators and sue to get a license if the studio doesnt keep cranking this trash out

 

[The handsome tard]

What happens after this movie flops? Is this series finally going to die? Are they going to shit out another movie that ignores the existence of the shitty ones?

Assuming they dont try to hide it was a flop, I think they will say its going to be on ice for the time being, since I doubt they can do another reboot again.

 

[Raging Capybara]

Dark Phoenix made more than that

But it's just a prediction, reality is always worse so expect a even bigger bomb. Couldn't have happened to a shittier film.