Valorant

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Fats McGee said:
"Ackshually, it's called (insert buzzword debate terminology)" Boiling the frog is a very real thing and so is the slippery slope. It's clear your stance is that this is okay, and that stance won't be changed, hence why you just get snarky replies. Nobody is wasting time arguing with someone who's mind is made up.
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What a deflection, instead of addressing anything I said you decided I'm not worth engaging with because my mind won't change, read my posts, I'm clearly not being unreasonable.

Since when is arguing with people on the internet about converting the person you are talking to? By that standard, almost no one would discuss anything, arguing on the internet has always been about exposing bad reasoning and letting people reading judge for themselves.

You are reframing dissagrement as ideological possesion so you don't have to respond to my points. And appeal to ridicule is not a buzzword, it's a real rethorical tool that applies to this situation, dismissing arguments through ridicule instead of substance is exactly what it refers too.

And yes, "Boiling Frog" and "Slippery Slope" are real concepts, that doesn't mean they apply here, saying a concept exists is not the same as demonstrating it applies to this situation.

Reading the replies on this thread, it's clear to me that one side knows more about what's going one than the other, you people seem to think that any software will beable to turn hardware into paperweight for any reason they want, and that is not what happened nor what will happen, which is why you focus on dismissing rather than engaging with arguments, the few times you did it exposed you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Is there a legitimate use for the process these cheaters use to cheat? If there is I can see a path to a lawsuit.

I know some anticheats block the use of Reshade. Is it something similar?
 
The Ugly One said:
Oh, so just make malware illegal. Why hadn't anyone thought of that before.
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I gave you four proposals and you engaged with one of them in the least genuine way possible.

DragoonSierra said:
Is there a legitimate use for the process these cheaters use to cheat? If there is I can see a path to a lawsuit.

I know some anticheats block the use of Reshade. Is it something similar?
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Without getting too deeply into jargon some cheat software pretends to be a hardware driver like a camera or mouse. The problem everyone has is anti-cheat software analyzing everything in an extremely invasive way to try and identify cheating software, which it doesn't do very effectively. Some people are concerned these aggressive anti-cheat measures will make a stupid mistake like decide your external HD is actually FortniteLMAOBoxAimWarez and brick it.
 
Spud gun said:
It is far from as dramatic as people are making it out to be, Valorant's anti cheat snitches on the cheat card to Windows, and its Windows own built in software that is disabling it.
  1. Anti cheat sees the cheat card pretending to be a normal NVME drive, which is how it bypasses normal detection.
  2. Tells Windows security that the card doesn't look legit
  3. Windows checks and realises the anti cheat is correct
  4. Windows prevents the cheat card from operating.
  5. Because Windows has "blacklisted" the cheat card it requires removing from the PC, then flipping a setting BIOS and reinstalling windows.

    Anyone spending 6 grand to cheat in an online game is a massive nigger.
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I'm waiting for one person to explain why kernel level cheating with Chinese gray market devices is good and safe but kernel level cheat prevention is bad and dangerous.

False and Misleading said:
Of course this can all be solved by not being a Windows cuck
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Linux does the exact same thing via the vt-d kernel driver.
 
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Most perplexing part of this entire shitshow is that someone is actually installing and playing riotslop.
Second most perplexing is that someone actually bothers to cheat in it.
 
Psyker said:
I gave you four proposals and you engaged with one of them in the least genuine way possible.
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The first two don't address my question at all. Kernel-level attacks are not just a gaming thing. Operating systems will still need to deal with them. A spoofed device using ring 0 to bypass userspace to run a RCE is still a problem that needs to be addressed. Everyone on your side has agreed that quarantining the device should be off the table. So what should be done? "Just sue Chinese & Russian criminals in US courts" isn't viable. Cybercrime's already illegal. We already sue & prosecute when we can. It's not enough.

Example:

Suppose an attacker corrupts the firmware in your network card. He uses this corrupted firmware to make the network card pretend to be another device and inject code into your web browser as it runs to extract keys as you type.

From the standpoint of low-level security, there is absolutely no difference between this and your Valorant cheat card. Low level stuff cannot see, "oh, this device is using invalid firmware and illegally accessing memory just for fun stuff like cheating at video games, while that device is using it to gain access to your bank account."

It just sees a device pretending to be a different one, accessing memory it's not supposed to, and now it must take action. It must take this action quickly, because computers execute billions of instructions per second and move gigabytes of data per second.

I will grant, for the sake of argument, the premise that the computer should not quarantine or blacklist the corrupted device until the corrupted firmware is fixed. I will grant this should be illegal. Congress should ban the practice. What, then, should it do? BTW I have 25,000 laptops across my organization to manage, so your answer has to scale to 25,000 laptops and not rely on the user being smart.
 
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The Ugly One said:
I'm waiting for one person to explain why kernel level cheating with Chinese gray market devices is good and safe but kernel level cheat prevention is bad and dangerous.
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one you have to be a massive fucking niggerbrained retard to expose your computer to, something akin to donwloading pirated shit from sketchy sites.
the other is the fucking faggot company forcing that gay shit on my computer.

they are the same i guess?

riot games is the spearhead of this gayness though, i still memba BF6 and Riot spywares fighting for control of the user's pc...
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The Ugly One said:
RCE exploits happen faster than humans can respond, which is why "wait for user intervention" isn't a viable approach. However, if you don't like your operating system determining what devices aren't allowed, you can disable the IOMMU in the BIOS.
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That still is no excuse for Valorant, or any game, forcing anything that could potentially brick my computer.

If you take objection to "bricking my computer", let's say "causing hardware issues" instead. There's plenty of ways to punish cheaters that don't involve messing with people's hardware.
The Ugly One said:
Should it be illegal for all software, or should Congress pass a law specifying what types of drivers a kernel is allowed to load? Wouldn't such a law also ban devices like this $6000 valorant cheat card? After all, the cheats themselves rely on ring 0 privilege to bypass userspace detection mechanisms. Are you okay with companies selling privileged software for cheating, but not privileged software for preventing cheating?

I'm not being sarcastic. I suspect you have not thought about this.
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In one I know what I'm being offered, and I willingly chose to buy it, in the other I did not. It was forced upon me after I purchased it. This wasn't something that came with Valorant originally, it was an update pushed by Riot Games.

That is the crux of this entire thing, and here is why:
Indrick Boreale said:
there's a power imbalance between some idiot using cheats and a company pushing software that can attack your devices. Malware or no, brick or no, there should be boundaries to what companies can do, and that should be one.
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This is an anti-consumer practice. It needs to stop.
 
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The Ugly One said:
The first two don't address my question at all.
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It's like arguing with a pig. Yes, they do address your concern. If you take away two of the most common motivations to do X then you will see instances of X decrease. This is as true of cheating in video games than anything else. "I want to get a high pretend-rank in my video game for virtual clout" and "I enjoy being annoying because it's funny" will be solved if you forcibly extract MMR trash from video games, focus on designing them exclusively to be fun and allow for gated communities that will do a better job of ejecting cheaters than any automated system. This will take out a large chunk of cheaters. It's further rectified by banning players from any country that would not allow your country's justice system to sue for selling cheats.
 
DragoonSierra said:
Is there a legitimate use for the process these cheaters use to cheat? If there is I can see a path to a lawsuit.

I know some anticheats block the use of Reshade. Is it something similar?
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mostly development related stuff - like you can use them for forensic analysis so you can look at the memory when you can't trust the machine OS, malware analysis, kernel debugging...

it's a much lower use case than the reshade scenario, like if someone who isn't a programmer/data forensics expert owns one of these cards and plays valorant they are 100% cheating, and an expert probably would know not play val on a machine with these cards (but you never know with autists)
 
No company should be intentionally damaging hardware in people's machines over the internet. You can argue it's technically windows doing it and argue that it prevents cheating but that isn't the point. Corrupting an operating system in someone's hardware is malicious no matter the reason you're doing it. And even if you think that's okay you have to assume Riot's software is perfect and can't possibly be exploited or hit false positives. Which is very unlikely to be true.

If you're already installing a root kit to monitor this and you can detect it happening then you can instantly ban the account it's detected on. And that at least is something the company can reverse if it's a false positive. Which they can't do if this triggers against other hardware because it just fucked it up through the internet.

dreamworks face said:
it's a much lower use case than the reshade scenario, like if someone who isn't a programmer/data forensics expert owns one of these cards and plays valorant they are 100% cheating, and an expert probably would know not play val on a machine with these cards (but you never know with autists)
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Autists have been playing Doom on their work machines since the original shareware release. You cannot assume any machine isn't being used to run games during the down time.
 
StacticShock said:
one you have to be a massive fucking niggerbrained retard to expose your computer to, something akin to donwloading pirated shit from sketchy sites.
the other is the fucking faggot company forcing that gay shit on my computer.

they are the same i guess?

riot games is the spearhead of this gayness though, i still memba BF6 and Riot spywares fighting for control of the user's pc...
View attachment 9047548
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I don't care about Riot Game slop, but I just want to say: good riddance to BF6 niggers getting their PCs filled with spyware. The game itself is disappointing enough, but battle toddlers are obnoxious pests and I am glad they are taken down a peg. Same goes for Riot Games cattle, really anyone playing online titles in this day and age. I can only imagine how much your PC gets raped today if you want to play multiplayer, and even then what's the point with how sanitized the experience is and how heavily live service elements are shilled?
 
Psyker said:
I gave you four proposals and you engaged with one of them in the least genuine way possible.
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The first step of your solution was unironically "If everyone collectively shared my opinion that ranked competitive multiplayer games are bad, then the market would disappear and we wouldn't have to worry about companies needing to police games", how was anyone supposed to take you seriously?
 
The Ugly One said:
What sort of techniques could a developer who isn't lazy use to detect a low level device intrusion without low-level access?
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I'm talking about anti-cheat specifically, not general system security. What kind of low level device intrusion is being used to cheat in video games? A lag switch? Only works when the devs are retarded enough to use P2P for multiplayer. Key injection? Macros are already available.

I'm not saying there's no case where having kernel access is useful in the context of security, I'm saying it's reckless overkill for anti-cheat for a shitty arena shooter. Layered checksums, detecting function hooks, most debugger detection techniques, encrypted data and code, obfuscation like computed control flow...none of that requires elevated permissions. The game devs could handle anti-cheat on both the server and client side without it. Claiming that the only effective anti-cheat requires kernel access is cope.

Game devs used to be among the most capable of software engineers historically, and that's largely held true in the limited capacity I've worked with them. The gradual decline due to the influx of women and Indians in all spaces of software however has led me to believe that this is less true than it once was.
The Ugly One said:
The reason you can't get ring 0 access on an aarch64 processor is it doesn't exist. Ring 0 is part of the x86 architecture. One of the basic vulnerabilities of x86 is too much functionality lives on ring 0. aarch64 separates these levels of access into three separate exception levels, and there are mechanisms for moving between them and trapping malicious exploits that don't exist on x86, either.
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You're right, I conflated root access with ring 0. Regardless, even the questionable commercial software hardening solutions that use sandbox escapes and the like don't have root access and the mobile threat landscape is far more lucrative and active than cheating in a nearly decade-old video game.
The Ugly One said:
Your computer would literally not work if this were true. Lots of things don't live in userspace.
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I agree with you on this, to be clear.
 
Hakase Shinonome said:
They can absolutely go fuck themselves, what the fuck. I would be fucking arrested if I bricked someone's PC remotely, hell, even having top-level access would get me arrested. But billion dollar companies can do no wrong, no-no.
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I want you all to know that these absolute niggercattle of "human beings" enjoy having Chinese spyware on their computer just because "it gets rid of cheaters" in their fucking COMPUTER GAME.


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scubain said:
The first step of your solution was unironically "If everyone collectively shared my opinion that ranked competitive multiplayer games are bad, then the market would disappear and we wouldn't have to worry about companies needing to police games", how was anyone supposed to take you seriously?
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I love me some multiplayer, like MOBAs as mentioned, but I'll be honest that I've come to a similar conclusion. I completely get where The Ugly One is coming from with all his argumentations about the technical in's-and-out's of this from a security standpoint and why such measures exist, but it does beg the question...

"Why is cheating in this game so purvasive that measures this extreme being employed even seems reasonable, for a fucking VIDEO GAME?"

It boils down to one answer.
E-Sports.
They foster an enviorment where people delusionally believe they can make a career out of PLAYING FUCKING VIDEO GAMES. When money is on the line, that is constant encouragement to take any edge you can to get that bag.

Even as a gamer all my life, I'm beyond sick and tired of no-lifers being equated to "athletes", and the push to do so has irrevocably fucked up this hobby in so many way.
 
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