Were incels avoidable?

[A Pale Shadow]

I know a Incel he would not consider dating a fat or an ugly also wont date a a girl that drinks or smokes ( he not religious but says the smell makes him sick). But yet wants a Stacy. I told him in this day and age a girl like that is not real. Also wont find a girl if you spend both your off days playing D&D from, 1 pm to 2 AM

D&D is a social game, so at least he's getting that amount of interaction. Better than nothing.

 

[doodoocaca]

Individuals who are just tabula rasa dipshits, or broken by trauma and experience? Of course. Same as kids getting cancer, some low rate of natural evil will just exist.

A disturbingly large swath of young people having no social skills whatsofuckingever, abandoned by a rapidly changing society, blamed for being ill prepared for the world they were originally born into, nevermind the one we're now in, pressured to join the oppression olympics? No.

The lack of social support, community, structure, belonging, and meaning facing a lot of zoomers and even younger millennials is on society for not providing it to young people, or the adults who were adolescents not that long ago. In a final sense, yes, you're accountable to yourself, but we don't just pile kids into zoos to Lord Of The Flies themselves, we raise them.

Well, we did. Now we give them tablets and laptops to distract them, let them find other kids on such devices - and of course the newly uplifted groomer class - and increasingly pressure them to keep their mouths shut irl because any misstep turns into a lecture or a tap dance through a mine field.

We've pushed kids into the same internet that made us farmers and the cows we milk to be brought up.
No fucking wonder they're so fucked up. Jesus Christ.

Social media was a mistake that the west will struggle to correct. The only way to fix this besides extensive therapy is almost certainly to keep kids off the internet in a very serious way that I don't see happening.

Question is, what do we do with these men? Most men are not going to be okay with the fact that they'll never get laid. Whether they deserve it, or not. They're still going to be pissed-off, and this could be disastrous for society. Young, fighting-age sexually-frustrated males are the demographic group you'd least want to piss-off, when running a society
Obviously, many of these incels have no hope in Hell of getting a gf, but they're still going to exist. Meaning we need to do something about them. Only things I can think of which could quell some kind of Beta Uprising is authoritarian bullshits like forced sterilization and mandatory conscription

If only the enlightened, woke authorities and arbiters of morality would actually figure out some way to manage them besides antagonism, marginalization, insult, and "have you considered becoming the gf?"

The first successful American Fascist is going to lead an army of these people and we all know it.

 

[RMQualtrough]

Therapy is a longcon. There's only medication. An incel on MDMA may become a social butterfly with 10000 friends within an hour.

Alter the mind and you discover an entirely different human being.

Now it is worse though because of mass narcissism. EVERYONE is a narcissist, thanks to Instagram and beauty standards etc. The entire modern culture is built around being good looking. In the past an ugly man would wife an ugly woman and have ugly kids. Now the ugly people are disgusted by each other and would rather stay alone and fantasize over people way out of their league.

By 2022 standards, having an unattractive partner is considered failure and to many people makes you less valuable as a person.

 

[cybertoaster]

This thread has been derailed, the point is not the incels now but the incels then, 50 years ago when out communities weren't falling apart, neoliberalism wasn't a thing, nearly nobody had a computer at home and the internet was an experiment at DARPA, but these proto-incels already existed and some shrinks were sounding the alarm at the problem.

Did ignoring this problem made it worse? or even if the authorities did something it would've made no difference?

Lets asume this kind of behavior had been considered a mental disorder back then, would it have been fixed? would incels even exist anymore? would society consider being an incel like being a schizo or psychotic? or would the same attitudes we see today remain in place?

The first successful American Fascist is going to lead an army of these people and we all know it.

Tradcons don't like incels either.

 

[PipTheAlchemist]

Tradcons don't like incels either.

Doesn't mean they can't be useful idiots

 

[The Gene Genie]

I think that "inceldom" is a symptom of a greater problem, which is the destruction of basically any kind of social community within our (Western, and for me specifically American) world. The problem, which may go back to the Internet and Social Media or may not, is that there are none for the most part. Where once the Internet and Social Media were things that were fully separated from the "real world" and existed more or less as a parallel construct or an "observation platform," they have become increasingly tied to and interlinked with the "real world." And with that, you've seen a gradual loss of intermingling on a social level between people. I'm not fully sure what the cause is, chicken or the egg, but the consequences are clear and you'll see people - here, Reddit, Facebook, IRL, anywhere - lamenting about this:

Neighbors are increasingly atomized from each other. I knew basically everyone on my block, to a certain extent, but from what I gather these days that's a rarity. Let alone getting together with them for a block party or a barbecue.

Communities and "social clubs" have been reduced to internet phenomena, of people gathering in Facebook groups or Discord chatrooms, far-removed from their local area, and totally removed from the real-world-space. People aren't going to search out like-minded interested people when they can just join an online community.

The dating market, I would say, has shrunk up considerably for someone who isn't in a position of "easy-social-networking" (school, for instance.) Dating apps are more ubiquitous, far more prevalent than at any other point, and I would say that for a lot of people the idea of just going out somewhere and striking up a conversation with a woman comes off as "just something someone doesn't do."

So we're left with situations where the only real places where people get together for the direct aim of socialization - clubs, parties, bars - place those who simply aren't that good at the social game at a disadvantage. It's no wonder someone grows resentful over this. I can't relate to the incel mindset, because I'm a bit of a extroverted social animal, but I can definitely see how that kind of atmosphere isn't good for them and "doesn't make sense." And I can see why they become frustrated, resentful, and then angry over it.

But I don't have an answer to solve it. I don't think there is one.

 

[doodoocaca]

Tradcons don't like incels either.

Are Fascists Tradcons?

 

[PipTheAlchemist]

Are Fascists Tradcons?

Facists are just ethno-leftists

 

[doodoocaca]

Does it matter? People with nothing to lose by definition have no reason not to take big risks, and plenty of reasons to roll the dice. People alienated from a society will resent it anyway.

The second an outlet is provided, what do you think they'll do? It's not like anything is being offered in exchange for accepting the status quo.

 

[Secret Messages]

The problem with the current definition of incels as a group and the indiscriminate hatred of them is that you take loveshy shut-ins that could probably integrate into society with some guidance and immediately lump them together with the most bitter misogynists. The latter are probably beyond help from festering for so long but the current status quo tells the former that they are destined to become the latter and abandons them prematurely.

 

[Star Platinum]

therapy isn't real and makes faggots more gay. so actually if the WHO or APA decided to recognize incels the problem would be worse, not better

 

[The Grognard]

The problem with the current definition of incels as a group and the indiscriminate hatred of them is that you take loveshy shut-ins that could probably integrate into society with some guidance and immediately lump them together with the most bitter misogynists. The latter are probably beyond help from festering for so long but the current status quo tells the former that they are destined to become the latter and abandons them prematurely.

There's also little incentive for them to really talk about it to anyone due to the modern stigma surrounding men who haven't formed sexual/romantic relationships with the opposite gender by the time they've reached adulthood. Opening up on this to those who aren't sympathetic to their plight leads to them being seen as lesser beings by their socially capable peers. Thus, they go to those who will not shit on them for something they see as an aspect they can't control for whatever reason. Thus, the feedback loop of resentment and bitterness.

 

[cybertoaster]

Doesn't mean they can't be useful idiots

Useful for what? they can't even muster the courage to ask several women out until one says 'yes' and you want to do what, become an army?

I think that "inceldom" is a symptom of a greater problem, which is the destruction of basically any kind of social community within our (Western, and for me specifically American) world.

But what about these protoincels from half a century ago? sure you had things like the sexual revolution back then which people like that french author houllenbecq says simply created a new class of haves and haves-not but for sex, like reaganomics, but those were the early days of said revolution and being loose was still taboo in most communities. Seems like those loveshy protoincels were too fast of a change.

Neighbors are increasingly atomized from each other. I knew basically everyone on my block, to a certain extent, but from what I gather these days that's a rarity. Let alone getting together with them for a block party or a barbecue.

Weird, I thought I was the one not doing that ever since I left the burbs, so its completely gone? that sucks...

People aren't going to search out like-minded interested people when they can just join an online community.

I get your point but frankly I dont miss the days when I was the only guy around who was into X band/game/movie, or at best could find 2 or 3 guys that at least knew about it so we could discuss it.

I do miss get-togethers like LAN parties, but those were killed by broadband making it practically pointless to lug around your PC to a friend's house. Ironically you can get some really good gaming laptops for less than a grand today so doing a LAN would not be as much of a pain as back then.

for a lot of people the idea of just going out somewhere and striking up a conversation with a woman comes off as "just something someone doesn't do."

The problem is actually women in this case, they really don't like that anymore, they think you might be some weirdo or try to rape them, because thats what they been told. Of course its all bullshit, but they believe and will act accordingly. Wouldn't be surprised if dating apps are partly behind this since they do promote that as the safe option for women, despite the fact that they do zero vetting on the users.

The problem with the current definition of incels as a group and the indiscriminate hatred of them is that you take loveshy shut-ins that could probably integrate into society with some guidance and immediately lump them together with the most bitter misogynists. The latter are probably beyond help from festering for so long but the current status quo tells the former that they are destined to become the latter and abandons them prematurely.

Incels are sort of heresy to the current ideological system because their situation cannot be explained by the ideology's dogma, they are a wrench into the gears of feminism much like saying the earth went around the sun and not the opposite was heresy for the church. If there's a patriarchy, if men truly have it easier, then incels shouldn't exist, you simply can't be an incel in such a system.

 

[Sugriva]

The rise of dating apps has given traditionally low-value women a superiority complex, Why would they settle for the ugly incel when they get so many matches on their apps? But of course, they don't realize that most dudes are just swiping right on everybody because matches are so infrequent.

 

[PipTheAlchemist]

The rise of dating apps has given traditionally low-value women a superiority complex, Why would they settle for the ugly incel when they get so many matches on their apps? But of course, they don't realize that most dudes are just swiping right on everybody because matches are so infrequent.

At least dating apps have finally taught low-value men where they belong

 

[Jeff_the_Thriller]

I'm going to say no unless technology quit advancing in 1992. There's two sides to this. Coombrains are overloaded with porn and have unrealistic expectations of their ideal woman. The problem with the male coombrain is instant gratification. Why would you work to improve yourself when you could go on a whackathon? It fucks up their social skills talking to women and it's more convenient and comfortable to watch a video of lesbians 69ing.

And the other side, what would be an incel rant talking about THOSE FUCKING WHORES?! I see this a lot on dating sites like bumble and tinder being fat girls with unrealistic standards. It's almost like incel levels on high standards. They want a high income, tall, well endowed dude bro. First find someone who can stand to see you naked and go from there.

I think being constantly barraged by media constantly has created unrealistic expectations as well as cop outs. Before the prevalence of social media and Internet hug boxes deluding everyone, both sexes had to work to improve themselves and make selves desirable.

 

[ABE LINN COHN]

From what I've read of the loveshy syndrome it isn't the same as the incels. The distinctive thing about incels is their system of belief where they basically view women as all being promiscuous sociopaths driven entirely by appearance, they believe society owes them women and women are the center of their world, and they usually prioritize specific male attractiveness standards, focused on height and facial structure, which they fixate on obsessively. The first two of those are fundamental to the incel identity; someone who doesn't believe that shit isn't an incel. This "incel" word was a label they put on themselves. The last one isn't necessary, but I've noticed it's a pattern with them. Half of them seem to suffer from extreme body dysmorphia, and their beliefs about women's behavior is delusional.

The loveshy guys tend to fit a specific pattern of being extremely passive guys who only hang out with women, are extreme romantics/sit around listening to love songs and watching romance movies, no friends or at least no male friends, "melancholic," spiritual, unexpressive and serious, dominated by possessive mothers with few sisters, and hateful of men.

The two are not only not the same thing, but they're in some significant ways very opposite. The incels hate women, the loveshies hate men. The loveshies seem more reclusive, the incels more resentful.

Men who are scared to interact with women are universal and probably were much more common back when gender segregation was strictly enforced (see: Middle East and India). Incels, on the other hand, are a uniquely modern thing that exists from specific isolated people linking up and indoctrinating each other on the Internet.

So to sum up: loveshy means Chris Chan, incel means Elliot Rodger

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

So to sum up: loveshy means Chris Chan

Not hardly, Chris Chan wandered around in public very actively advertising his romantic desires.

Just picture an old-fashioned sensitive mamas boy.

 

[doodoocaca]

Useful for what? they can't even muster the courage to ask several women out until one says 'yes' and you want to do what, become an army?

Ever seen a raw recruit? They're basically useless. An army need not be trained professionals that can make their own decisions, an army need only do as told. Directionless young people falling for a cult of personality are potentially quite dangerous. Instead of grappling with "we're not offering alienated people shit" we just call them 'radicalized' and wash our hands until shit goes sideways.

But what about these protoincels from half a century ago? sure you had things like the sexual revolution back then which people like that french author houllenbecq says simply created a new class of haves and haves-not but for sex, like reaganomics, but those were the early days of said revolution and being loose was still taboo in most communities. Seems like those loveshy protoincels were too fast of a change.

The issue is how many of them there are, not if they existed or not. Particularly, if a lot of people have nothing to live for they tend to make it everyone else's problem. If you have no social future and you're miserable, why are you any less likely to take big risks than if you had no economic future and you're miserable?

Weird, I thought I was the one not doing that ever since I left the burbs, so its completely gone? that sucks...

Social atomization is part of this problem, and many others, too.

I get your point but frankly I dont miss the days when I was the only guy around who was into X band/game/movie, or at best could find 2 or 3 guys that at least knew about it so we could discuss it.

I'd rather have diverse friends and a milieu where people don't need to be in lockstep with outlook, politics, and interests, in real life, than find echo chambers online. Right now we seem to find the latter.

I do miss get-togethers like LAN parties, but those were killed by broadband making it practically pointless to lug around your PC to a friend's house. Ironically you can get some really good gaming laptops for less than a grand today so doing a LAN would not be as much of a pain as back then.

You're also likely less toxic IRL than on a mic.

The problem is actually women in this case, they really don't like that anymore, they think you might be some weirdo or try to rape them, because thats what they been told. Of course its all bullshit, but they believe and will act accordingly. Wouldn't be surprised if dating apps are partly behind this since they do promote that as the safe option for women, despite the fact that they do zero vetting on the users.

That's a big part of it, but there's also "I have time, I can keep fucking around or rolling the dice until I find the perfect partner" running until you're in your mid 30s and OH SHIT. People aren't encouraged to form a real social fabric, and this is the result.

Incels are sort of heresy to the current ideological system because their situation cannot be explained by the ideology's dogma, they are a wrench into the gears of feminism much like saying the earth went around the sun and not the opposite was heresy for the church. If there's a patriarchy, if men truly have it easier, then incels shouldn't exist, you simply can't be an incel in such a system.

Au contraire, the system says they need to be medicalized and put in institutions for wrong think, or made to troon out.

 

[NickGer]

There always been a man, who had no purpose in life or struggled to live in society. Modern times and society just makes this issue much more worse. Some people need guidance, help or mentor but it's easier to paint man as weirdos or creeps instead of actually granting them help. I know plenty of man, who are just broken by life or past events but are still great to talk to or hang around but they were and are alone for their entire life. The issue is not as simple as "lol just to talk to the girls" or some other dumb shit as some of comments in this thread imply(if may be the case for some people maybe). Incel is really broad and vague term of much more complex issue.