What are some of the biggest examples of bad game design you’ve seen?

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Any artsy game that decides to pull the old "games don't HAVE to be fun" card.

SUDA51 has a bad habit of doing this. An incredibly tedious, grindy, slow, and utterly pointless section that serves no purpose? Get that in there! One of his earlier visual novels has a section where you're potentially looking at "investigating" literally hundreds of apartments at random until you find one that gives you a breadcrumb, just to waste your time. Even with a walkthrough, the section is a solid 20-30 minutes of walking around doing nothing. No More Heroes 2 has a "level" where you sit in a parking lot and fight enemies for genuinely 20-30 minutes that pose no real challenge.

That's different from a game's mechanics intentionally being so punishing that it's hard to call fun - Pathologic 2 is hard to call "fun," but its punishing mechanics add to a sense of poverty and urgency in the game in active ways that inform the gameplay. Even Dark Souls 2's increasingly-decreasing max health mechanic contributes to the game in a meaningful way and feels thematic.
I’ve been getting into Pathologic, currently playing Classic HD and it’s honestly incredible.

That said, I’m pretty convinced they designed the map deliberately to piss me off. It’s laid out like a maze, and if you approach a house from the wrong angle you straight up can’t get to the door. But the in-game map itself doesn’t bother to communicate that fact half the time. So you have to walk back the way you came and reapproach. It’s only a few minutes of walking but so much of the game is walking already that it drives me nuts.

Plus they give me the option to jump, but nothing is the right height to jump over. Why give me false hope? Make the fences shorter or take away my ability to jump. It’s not like it’s a useful skill in this game (that I’ve seen anyway).
 
Dunno if it's been mentioned before but every single part of Indivisible is poorly designed, it's almost impressive
To this day Im still not sure if those heart meters that filled up little by little after every fight was the companions levelling up or what because the game never tells you
 
This fucking yeti from Spyro: Year of the Dragon.

View attachment 1841342

This boxing minigame is the most absurdly difficult segment in the entire Spyro trilogy and for all the wrong reasons. Firstly, Bentley's controls are delayed beyond belief; sometimes it will take a solid second before he actually throws a punch, or sometimes he won't do anything at all. Meanwhile, the yeti moves lightning fast, chains punches together, and can quickly change from blocking to punching, none of which you can do. Secondly, the hit detection is horrendous. Your punches will sometimes go straight through the yeti and not do any damage. Sometimes the yeti falls prey to the bad hit detection, but he punches so rapidly it doesn't matter.

Even worse is the fact that you have to beat him twice if you want to 100% the game. The second fight in particular is a pain in the ass because it goes for three rounds and the yeti has an insane amount of health. The only way to effectively beat the yeti is to cheese the fight by circling around him and throwing hooks at him. And it sucks because Year of the Dragon is so awesome otherwise, it's just this one bit that's outrageously bad.
Most people completed these challenges by holding right on the analog stick/D-pad to pin down the enemy yeti on the other side of the ring and spammed quick jabs. It's also worth noting that Spyro: Year of the Dragon's enemy AI can be altered via the game's adaptive difficulty, lose enough times or use a cheat code and the game WILL become easier.
Oh, and unless you're REALLY lucky you'll have to do the second minigame two times or MORE due to there being a skill point tied to it (beat the yeti in two rounds). IIRC it's actually pretty easy to get. If you complete the second challenge once and have a second controller plugged in during subsequent visits you can use the extra controller to play as the enemy yeti.
 
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I don't think it has been mentioned, but: Premium tanks in World of Tanks.

Pay2Win in general is utter cancer, microtransactions are a desaster, but holy fucking shit, is it ridiculous when it comes to the tiered combat system of WoT.
Tanks get put into tiers depending on how effective they are in their role, but to make pay2win tanks more interesting, they are not only superior in all regards to a comparable tank of the same role, they are also in comparatively low tiers. Essentially, you're the games designated seal-clubber. Add to that the Russian bias that makes Tigers light up like Zippos with weak-ass armor and heavily reduced armor penetration and you get a mess of a game.

That being said: Bias on part of the game makers was a bitch, too.
Some years ago, one of the KV-variants, I think the KV-1S, was so incredibly overpowered for its tier, it was literally "The other side has one of those? Well fuck us, I guess." Barely anything could hurt that fucker, even from the sides, its cannon shot quickly, it penetrated anything and it did a metric ton of damage. It was ridiculous... and people complained for months before the devs reacted: They promised to put the tank into a higher tier "soon", but did sweet fuck-all for 2 or 3 months... meanwhile, they merrily introduced new tanks into existing techtrees of the other nations that ended up pushing everything after those new tanks up a tier and thus fucked them over even harder. I think when they finally changed the KV-1S into a higher tier, every other tank in that tier had already been nerfed.

Something specific to that game: Pseudo-historical tanks that never existed.
The game is choke full with tanks that were designed, planned or even just suggested during WW2, which makes some nations end up with utterly retarded designs that would never work, but since the game uses the crazed fever dreams of war-stressed Generals as foundation for their capabilties, you end up with tanks that drive faster than anything in their weight bracket, cause unlike the real tanks, that needed to come up with a propulsion system based on what's actually available, some General going "Yeah, we'll find a 1500HP engine of the correct size and weight somewhere, I guess..." Same with the armor and guns. Essentially, you end up with a tank that never left the most basic design phase, never had been put together to see if that shit even works and sometimes uses experimental technology that you'd not see employed up to this date to this degree.

The result: A tank with a ridiculously low weight, but a ridiculously strong engine, nearly unbreakable armor and a quick-firing gun that blows chunks out of tanks 20 tons heavier and 3 tiers higher without any problems. And this fucker costs 50 bucks. Never mind the whole thing would need to be build with armor as light as styrofoam and as sturdy as diamond to be able to even pull off half of this shit. Never mind that the engine would have to be so utterly large, it would fill up the entire insides of the tank and leave no room for crew or ammo...
And that abomination goes against some upgraded Panzer IV with all its historically existing specs (implemented by biased slavs)...

We used to call these made up tanks "sketch-tanks" or "napkin tanks", cause quite a lot of those felt like Hitler, Churchill or DeGaul had doodled them on a napkin while eating and going "This! I want this!".
 
To this day Im still not sure if those heart meters that filled up little by little after every fight was the companions levelling up or what because the game never tells you
I think they were level ups or some kind of 'synchronicity'. Not that they made literally any difference, the number values skyrocket after Ajna gets an upgrade and companion damage/health scales with her for some reason
 
La Mulana has some pretty egregious examples of bad game design. I enjoyed the game for the most part, but I really disagree with people who say that it's a perfect game. They consciously decided to imitate outdated game mechanics that developers had long dropped because everyone thought they were infuriating.

The first thing that anyone notices about the game is that the control scheme is awful. It's like an early platformer where once you jump, you have no control until you land again. It's even worse when you walk off a ledge because you fall straight down and lose all control until you got the ground, which could be several screens away. And the worst is that when you get hit, you also lose control until you hit the ground, meaning if you get hit while jumping you will fly off in a random direction with no control. There's even a spot in the game where doing this can get you stuck in an infinite loop that forces you to teleport out of the level and you have to go all the way through it again.

Another problem that plagues this game is poorly worded and ambiguous translations. Some tablets in the game simply do not tell you the right thing to do. Sometimes you do the right thing in the right place, but you're a pixel off from the spot you're supposed to do it at, so you think that it didn't work. It's a noble endeavor to say you're going to beat this game without a guide, but it's not very realistic unless you are prepared to spend hours brute forcing the game by trying every single thing in every single place until you do the right thing.

It's intentionally designed to be infuriating because old games were infuriating, but that doesn't excuse it for being awful game design. Some call it pleb filter, but I just think you have to be something of a masochist to enjoy this game.
 
Don't know if it's been brought up and don't care to scan through the topic again, but Pokemon Black 2 being the only game with a) a Hard Mode and b) it being unlockable only after beating the game is bullshit. White 2, by the way, is possibly more aggressively stupid - an Easy Mode that, like Black 2's Hard Mode, is only available after you beat the game so what's even the fucking point?
Wait, you telling me that they split up the ability to unlock modes between both games? Holy shit why would you do that? Those are the kind of features you keep in both games. At least give both versions Hard Mode, the series is easy enough for a casual playthrough as it is.

That unlock method does remind me of Mega Man Legends though. You beat Normal mode to unlock Hard Mode and than you beat that to unlock Easy Mode. Why? No clue, but Easy Mode gave you a buster part that maxed out your buster gun which was kinda neat
 
Something specific to that game: Pseudo-historical tanks that never existed.
The game is choke full with tanks that were designed, planned or even just suggested during WW2, which makes some nations end up with utterly retarded designs that would never work, but since the game uses the crazed fever dreams of war-stressed Generals as foundation for their capabilties, you end up with tanks that drive faster than anything in their weight bracket, cause unlike the real tanks, that needed to come up with a propulsion system based on what's actually available, some General going "Yeah, we'll find a 1500HP engine of the correct size and weight somewhere, I guess..." Same with the armor and guns. Essentially, you end up with a tank that never left the most basic design phase, never had been put together to see if that shit even works and sometimes uses experimental technology that you'd not see employed up to this date to this degree.
Never underestimate human ingenuity
723ll2m0bdl11.jpg


But yeah, I don't play World of Tanks, but I've played War Thunder, and this specific genre has problems.
Firstly like you said there are premium vehicles that always overperform in their tier.
Secondly the grind is korean levels. Meaning you're constantly being teased with spending money if you're getting sick of down tiered later war tanks blowing up your Sherman.
Thirdly the tier system has and always will be retarded. I get that a M262 would absolutely dominate the skies if you actually unleashed it once you enter 1943, but it's way more unfun to spend time or money to unlock early jets, only to realize you're now facing cold war jets that are going to sodomize you for the audacity to think you're going to have fun in a Meteor.
There's a good reason for why people claim they have the most fun during events where the full era arsenal is unleashed at the same time rather than having vehicles be given a tier to either be pounded or pound weapons of war created decades apart.
It would likely be far more fun and interesting if matches had a limited amount of certain classes, meaning you can have King Tigers facing a T-34, but the amount of King Tigers you can bring into the fight is limited compared to the amount of mid war mediums.
 
Never underestimate human ingenuity
723ll2m0bdl11.jpg
What you underestimate here: Putting in the gun sideways, cutting a hole to make the radio fit, rigging together a bunch of car engines to make it go... Those are solutions to problems the engineers had to get over, to make the tank transition from some vague design to a reality. And it very well represents the clash between a design and how to realize it. All of these mitigations of problems likely come with some sort of downside that the real tank has to deal with, while the one on paper didn't.

Let me put it like this:
Someone has an idea for a tank, he needs a "sales pitch" so the Army will greenlight it and he embelishes the design a bit, hoping to figure out how to make it once he gets down to building it:
So he'll assume it'll weigh 50 tons, with a low profile sloped turret and a super compact 100mm gun that can fire 10 rounds a minute and carry 60 rounds, front armor of a certain composition and shape (say wedge shape with 120mm armor), and an engine with 800hp at a weight of 1 ton that can propel the tank to 60km/h on streets and 35km/h on dirt.
If the project was shitcanned during the design-phase, you get a (50 Euro Premium) tank with all the amazing, albeit unrealistic, features someone hoped to put into the finished product before he was confronted with a shortage of supplies, being forced to use surplus parts from other projects or make do with whatever leftover stuff lying around from previous developements he could find.

Now, instead, Hitler likes this design a lot and goes "Make me 10.000 of those" and it is actually built:
So the engineers get down to business and figure out, that the gun they want to use does not exist and they need to go for some old 75mm PAK gun - and even that will be a tight fit in the turret, which ends up overweight due to some design flaw they overlooked. Worse still, they figure out they only got a 500hp engine that weighs 1.5tons as the intended engine is too expensive and the suspension is a nightmare to design, which also goes over the weight that they first assumed when designing the tank. In order to mitigate this to retain some of the mobility, they downgrade the armor and the tank still weighs more than planned.

You ultimately get a 55-60 ton tank that is not as well armored, has a gun that is smaller and can only fire 5 rounds per minute and only carry 40 rounds due to the cramped turret. It now only drives 40km/h on the road and easily bogs down in the dirt.
And this is what you get in WoT.

There's some french scout tank, that's flat as a flounder (literally impossible to hit when it stands next to you due to limited gun depression), one of the fastest things in the game, with an auto-loader gun that fires like a 1911, penetrates almost any armor and deals enough damage to put heavy tanks of higher tiers to shame, who in contrast can't even mildly piss off that scout with a direct hit to the sidearmor. A scout tank that only exists on paper... and you can tell.

Secondly the grind is korean levels. Meaning you're constantly being teased with spending money if you're getting sick of down tiered later war tanks blowing up your Sherman.
Pretty much all tanks are utterly terrible until they are fully upgraded. On the German side, the Hetzer and Panzer IV are some good examples. Once they are fully upgraded, they are decent enough, but holy fucking shit, every minute before that is pure agony. Some tanks, like the Durchbruchswagen, are flat out garbage throughout the entire run.

Thirdly the tier system has and always will be retarded. I get that a M262 would absolutely dominate the skies if you actually unleashed it once you enter 1943, but it's way more unfun to spend time or money to unlock early jets, only to realize you're now facing cold war jets that are going to sodomize you for the audacity to think you're going to have fun in a Meteor.
Yeah, putting tanks into tiers does make sense to prevent the most crazy shit... WoT during the closed beta had only a few tanks, so I had the joy of being the last survivor in my team in a Tier 4 scout and the last remaining opponent was... a Tier 10 Maus in our camp. Not even shooting it in the weakspots would scratch that thing. So there is a good reason to divide things into tiers, but the way how some things benevolently end up in low tiers despite being effective enough at higher ones, while some others are in high tiers where they are just useless... Yeah, oftentimes the decision of what tier to make something are just based on bias. Is it Russian? Better make it a sealclubber, everything else wouldn't be partiotic.

Best example of slav-bias btw: The devs say they wanted to make the game as close to reality as possible, so they look at penetration capabilities of real gun data to use in their game.
If the gun can penetrate, say, 90mm armor in reality, they'll use that in their game. Which would be fine if they weren't assholes.
Slav-weapons always used a 0° deflection as baseline (ie: The grenade hitting at a perfect 90° angle), whereas German guns in their game used data based on 20° deflection (ie: hitting at a 60° angle), which effectively gives them half the penetration power of their real counterparts.

It would likely be far more fun and interesting if matches had a limited amount of certain classes, meaning you can have King Tigers facing a T-34, but the amount of King Tigers you can bring into the fight is limited compared to the amount of mid war mediums.
WoT tried to add a mode like that for years and they could not balance it out.
 
WoT tried to add a mode like that for years and they could not balance it out.
That probably has to do with the difference in how WoT and War Thunder handle their combat. WoT has healthbars and certain tanks get invulnerable to certain ammunition once the tier gap gets too wide.

In War Thunder a Panzer II could take out a Pershing if it comes from behind.

Obviously these games are more limited than I would like, but hopefully we will one day have a WWII vehicle simulator where we are not faced with current limitations. Perhaps the ideal is a future game where you have actual armies with infantry, frontlines, and logistics rather than just throwing 20 heavy tanks into a arena
 
This especially pisses me off in the Total War games. The really early ones, Shogun 1 and Medieval 1, as well as every Total War game after Shogun 2 had their units get stat bonuses across the board. This would mean that for example in Rome 2 the enemy's barbarian levy spearmen were as strong as your Hastati, or in Warhammer that an enemy Skaven unit, which are basically a spam faction with lots of low quality but cheap trash units, was stronger than your early game Dwarves, who are the opposite, expensive units but high quality and armored as fuck. And don't get me started if you had to fight Dwarves on higher difficulties, you'd swear even their trashunits had unbreakable morale.
Just play skaven and use the damn nuke on them...




EU4 has alot of bad design choices. the DLCs are just the worst. they have always add one feature that is needed and 2 that are broken and just make the game boring.
They also broke the AI with their stupid feature spam to a point where half the features cant be used by the AI leading to unfair situations in the early game while being of no effect after 1/4ths of the game when money is no issue anymore.
 
Spyro: Year of the Dragon's enemy AI can be altered via the game's adaptive difficulty, lose enough times or use a cheat code and the game WILL become easier.
There's an adaptive difficulty? Not much help then. I remember when I was younger I'd get stuck on that bastard for a good 40 minutes before giving up.
 
Playing Okami again. Great game, play it if you have not or play it again if you have.

But Okami has a few areas where the camera really fucks with the game. Specifically when entering and exiting certain doors. You enter the door pushing forward, then exit into the next zone with the camera facing the door. And if you are still holding forward, you go right back through the door. Sometimes this happens before loading is finished and you effectively buffer your forward input to go back before the loading screen vanishes.

So yeah. Cameras and doors. Don't fuck it up.
 
I don't think it has been mentioned, but: Premium tanks in World of Tanks.

Pay2Win in general is utter cancer, microtransactions are a desaster, but holy fucking shit, is it ridiculous when it comes to the tiered combat system of WoT.
Tanks get put into tiers depending on how effective they are in their role, but to make pay2win tanks more interesting, they are not only superior in all regards to a comparable tank of the same role, they are also in comparatively low tiers. Essentially, you're the games designated seal-clubber. Add to that the Russian bias that makes Tigers light up like Zippos with weak-ass armor and heavily reduced armor penetration and you get a mess of a game.

That being said: Bias on part of the game makers was a bitch, too.
Some years ago, one of the KV-variants, I think the KV-1S, was so incredibly overpowered for its tier, it was literally "The other side has one of those? Well fuck us, I guess." Barely anything could hurt that fucker, even from the sides, its cannon shot quickly, it penetrated anything and it did a metric ton of damage. It was ridiculous... and people complained for months before the devs reacted: They promised to put the tank into a higher tier "soon", but did sweet fuck-all for 2 or 3 months... meanwhile, they merrily introduced new tanks into existing techtrees of the other nations that ended up pushing everything after those new tanks up a tier and thus fucked them over even harder. I think when they finally changed the KV-1S into a higher tier, every other tank in that tier had already been nerfed.

Something specific to that game: Pseudo-historical tanks that never existed.
The game is choke full with tanks that were designed, planned or even just suggested during WW2, which makes some nations end up with utterly retarded designs that would never work, but since the game uses the crazed fever dreams of war-stressed Generals as foundation for their capabilties, you end up with tanks that drive faster than anything in their weight bracket, cause unlike the real tanks, that needed to come up with a propulsion system based on what's actually available, some General going "Yeah, we'll find a 1500HP engine of the correct size and weight somewhere, I guess..." Same with the armor and guns. Essentially, you end up with a tank that never left the most basic design phase, never had been put together to see if that shit even works and sometimes uses experimental technology that you'd not see employed up to this date to this degree.

The result: A tank with a ridiculously low weight, but a ridiculously strong engine, nearly unbreakable armor and a quick-firing gun that blows chunks out of tanks 20 tons heavier and 3 tiers higher without any problems. And this fucker costs 50 bucks. Never mind the whole thing would need to be build with armor as light as styrofoam and as sturdy as diamond to be able to even pull off half of this shit. Never mind that the engine would have to be so utterly large, it would fill up the entire insides of the tank and leave no room for crew or ammo...
And that abomination goes against some upgraded Panzer IV with all its historically existing specs (implemented by biased slavs)...

We used to call these made up tanks "sketch-tanks" or "napkin tanks", cause quite a lot of those felt like Hitler, Churchill or DeGaul had doodled them on a napkin while eating and going "This! I want this!".
>not mentioning shooting mechanic (or how to get fucked by RNG)
 
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>not mentioning shooting mechanic (or how to get fucked by RNG)
Oh god, don't even get me started. I could swear that there is some fuckery in the RNG as well, where aiming times and degree of deviation from point of aim is somehow more favourable for certain tanks, especially Premium ones.
When you see someone hitting you from about 250m away while traversing bumpy ground at top speed, aiming 90° to the side while your stationary tank can't hit a flock of barns, something's not right. And then of course chances of bouncing shots, damage value and chance of getting a critical hit.
 
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Phantasy Star Online 2 decided, for some godforsaken reason, to make their raids occur on a schedule. To Sega's credit, the schedule's on their website and you can even set up alerts for specific ones. But you're absolutely shit-out-of-luck if you need something like void fragments and you cannot be online during the times the raid that drops them is up.

It's especially egregious right now. There's currently an event where you get rewards running a specific raid a certain number of times. Naturally, the raid itself only pops up twice a day, and the rest of the schedule is full of raids that don't count towards the event. Thank goodness they're easy enough you don't really need coordinated groups or I'd be really tilting.
 
Completely forgot about this until just now, but Dark Souls has a level-able stat called Resistance. Leveling it increases your defense against Poison, which on paper sounds useful.

Lowest possible Poison Resist is 26.
40 levels of Resistance gives you 107 Poison Resist, +81.
Poisonbite Ring gives you 104, +78.
The full Gold-Hemmed Black robes set (an armor set considered one of the best for weight/armor ratio) gives you 266, +240.
There is 0 value in putting so much as one point into Resistance when literally anything else pays better.
 
So I've been revisiting some things in my MWO account and

oh my fucking god

@WhiteDevil mentioned that engine/agility nerf earlier and to appreciate just how horrific it is to try and drive some mechs anymore you have to do something like dust off your old Kodiak-3 (because the Annihilator launched AFTER that happened anyway)

Both the KDK-3 and Annihilator CANNOT CLIMB SMALL HILLS OR CLEAR ROCKS WITHOUT AT LEAST 100M RUN UP

Actually dropped into matches with both and the KDK got stuck on a tiny group of rocks in a Canyon map while trying to amble up a slope. Annie got stuck trying to go down a slope on Frozen City and could not reverse up the same slope it came down because of a SMALL RIDGE IN THE RAMP.

The mobility nerf is SO BAD THAT MECHS ARE DOWNRIGHT UNDRIVEABLE ON ANYTHING BUT PERFECTLY FLAT TERRAIN
 
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So I've been revisiting some things in my MWO account and

oh my fucking god

@WhiteDevil mentioned that engine/agility nerf earlier and to appreciate just how horrific it is to try and drive some mechs anymore you have to do something like dust off your old Kodiak-3 (because the Annihilator launched AFTER that happened anyway)

Both the KDK-3 and Annihilator CANNOT CLIMB SMALL HILLS OR CLEAR ROCKS WITHOUT AT LEAST 100M RUN UP

Actually dropped into matches with both and the KDK got stuck on a tiny group of rocks in a Canyon map while trying to amble up a slope. Annie got stuck trying to go down a slope on Frozen City and could not reverse up the same slope it came down because of a SMALL RIDGE IN THE RAMP.

The mobility nerf is SO BAD THAT MECHS ARE DOWNRIGHT UNDRIVEABLE ON ANYTHING BUT PERFECTLY FLAT TERRAIN
The textures on some terrain can mislead you into thinking you can climb it when you can't, which is incredibly irritating.
 
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