Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

Yah I hate that fact

I don't know why writers can't just let a villain be a villain. They always have to humanize and redeem them, always.

The Borg were awesome and terrifying as a totally alien mindset. A complete antithesis of humanity and thus almost unfathomable. But noooo, here's the Borg Queen and she's totally hot for Data and Picard. So stupid. All the mystery and fear is gone as the Borg are just another funny colored human. Such a waste of an iconic villain.

Same for Q

He should have stayed as a unknowable rogue, omnipotent and all powerful. Is he here to help? Is he just here to fuck with us? Who knows? Who can know as the Q are as beyond humanity as we are beyond ants. But wait! Here's Q pal'ing around with Vashj and letting Sisko punch him. Even better he's helping Janeway now and getting his wai-fu pregant cuz that's totally something a post-physcial being would do and showing humans how the Q are pretty much the same as them by getting bored of life and wanted to die. They completely destroy his importance, his menace and his mystery by dumb'ing him down to our level.

Fuck, I refuse to think of Q as anything other then he appeared in "All Good Things.." which he was perfect in. Full of menace and mystery. Is he causing this event? Is it another test? Is he serious this time? It was bang on.
Q is a trickster and more importantly he isn't representative of his entire race. As for Quinn, I really like Death Wish. When your immortal and onmipotent, know everything, have seen everything, and have done everything, to the point that nothing need be said anymore-then life itself becomes a questionable gift when its just as the episode depicted-an empty road and waystation.

Q in TNG routinely engages in "human" esque behavior, from intentionally annoying Picard, provoking Worf, and just all around misbehaving.

The Q as a whole seem very similar to how the ancient Greeks and other cultures saw their gods-not perfect beings but subject to the same flaws as humans, and they are functionally gods. Capricious, untrustworthy, sometimes helpful, sometimes terrible to behold.

Yah I hate that fact

I don't know why writers can't just let a villain be a villain. They always have to humanize and redeem them, always.

The Borg were awesome and terrifying as a totally alien mindset. A complete antithesis of humanity and thus almost unfathomable. But noooo, here's the Borg Queen and she's totally hot for Data and Picard. So stupid. All the mystery and fear is gone as the Borg are just another funny colored human. Such a waste of an iconic villain.

Same for Q

He should have stayed as a unknowable rogue, omnipotent and all powerful. Is he here to help? Is he just here to fuck with us? Who knows? Who can know as the Q are as beyond humanity as we are beyond ants. But wait! Here's Q pal'ing around with Vashj and letting Sisko punch him. Even better he's helping Janeway now and getting his wai-fu pregant cuz that's totally something a post-physcial being would do and showing humans how the Q are pretty much the same as them by getting bored of life and wanted to die. They completely destroy his importance, his menace and his mystery by dumb'ing him down to our level.

Fuck, I refuse to think of Q as anything other then he appeared in "All Good Things.." which he was perfect in. Full of menace and mystery. Is he causing this event? Is it another test? Is he serious this time? It was bang on.
The Borg's origin in that trilogy really angered people. That said, I wonder if "redeem" is the right word, more like "fundamentally transform to a higher state of being".
 
I personally didn't really care for the whole Dominion war plot line. I prefer my Trek Noblebright and not Grimderp.

Too much now a days is all dark and gritty and believe it or not it does affect our culture..with nothing but dark, despairing depictions of humanity's future is it any wonder people in general feel like the world is worse off now?

Not that TNG was unwilling to shit on humanity but they did it a hell of a lot less and usually for a good thematic reason. Not just hurr durr mankind bad like STD and STP

One thing that always bothered me though...

When Picard chose to not infect Hugh with the virus did he not realize how he was condemning possibly trillions of life forms to be assimilated by the Borg? His inaction on moral grounds results in the Borg continuing to rampage through the Delta Quadrant assimilating species left and right and all because one self-righteous human decided that he gets to choose whats best for everyone.

That always bugged me.
Hilariously, the BGS Remake made their own episode and came to roughly the same conclusion Picard made. Even though the stakes in that show are more dire and even more grim-dark because even Ron Moore realized that if they kill off all the Cyclons, the show immediately ends.
 
The Q as a whole seem very similar to how the ancient Greeks and other cultures saw their gods-not perfect beings but subject to the same flaws as humans, and they are functionally gods. Capricious, untrustworthy, sometimes helpful, sometimes terrible to behold.
Missed the part where TNG Q were like the gods of old in that they hated hubris and punished those who didn't take the hint they're being too arrogant. And damn Picard and his crew and the Federation are arrogant as fuck up until the Battle of Wolf 359 happened and there's was nothing between the Borg and Earth.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Flexo
Missed the part where TNG Q were like the gods of old in that they hated hubris and punished those who didn't take the hint they're being too arrogant.
Q was the personification of being too arrogant.
 
Q was the personification of being too arrogant.
True before the rest of Q Continuum made him a mortal, and not quite as much arrogant after his return to the Continuum. Which does follow the some of the punishment the Greek gods done to few of own from time to time. With the caveat the gods being "punished" are still at full power but not allowed to use their powers. And the humans they serving under are aware of that major detail to keep them on the straight and narrow.
 
Friendly reminder that Bill is going into space today.

FBYU2iHUcAMYib2.jpg
 
Yah I hate that fact

I don't know why writers can't just let a villain be a villain. They always have to humanize and redeem them, always.

The Borg were awesome and terrifying as a totally alien mindset. A complete antithesis of humanity and thus almost unfathomable. But noooo, here's the Borg Queen and she's totally hot for Data and Picard. So stupid. All the mystery and fear is gone as the Borg are just another funny colored human. Such a waste of an iconic villain.

Same for Q

He should have stayed as a unknowable rogue, omnipotent and all powerful. Is he here to help? Is he just here to fuck with us? Who knows? Who can know as the Q are as beyond humanity as we are beyond ants. But wait! Here's Q pal'ing around with Vashj and letting Sisko punch him. Even better he's helping Janeway now and getting his wai-fu pregant cuz that's totally something a post-physcial being would do and showing humans how the Q are pretty much the same as them by getting bored of life and wanted to die. They completely destroy his importance, his menace and his mystery by dumb'ing him down to our level.

Fuck, I refuse to think of Q as anything other then he appeared in "All Good Things.." which he was perfect in. Full of menace and mystery. Is he causing this event? Is it another test? Is he serious this time? It was bang on.
I really can't stand when they redeem villains. Characters like Darth Vader showed be rare.
Friendly reminder that Bill is going into space today.

View attachment 2621553
Oh boy it's today. Captain Kirk goes to space

Meanwhile Picard is trying to see how he can be even more woke and annoying
 
i genuinely can't wait. rarely watched star trek, mostly know of it through cultural osmosis, (and reading threads on the internet) but you can't not be hyped for this if you have any sort of faustian spirit in your heart. a black equivalent would be lebronVjordan dream team vs dream team. slightly sad it didn't happen sooner but hyped about it happening at all.
 
View attachment 2612083
Another galaxy destroying threat? oh no how will our brave and clever heros get through this one, explain to me with more forced one-liners please.
i love how much pain star trek gives Mike. remember he loves voyager and hates DS9. this fruit also loved the star wars sequels. he loved the idea of JJ Abrams at the helm too.
 
the other time was when he wanted to let a giant world-eating cannibal space crystal freely roam the galaxy
Oh for fucks sake. Let's get it straight that Picard wanted to try talking to the crystal first, he wasn't going to let it roam but at least ATTEMPT a peaceful solution of "please don't eat us" THEN blow it up if that failed.

We already had fun in this thread imagining a giant space crystal on the side of starfleet fighting the Dominion and Borg. "Surprise motherfuckers!"
The Borg's origin in that trilogy really angered people. That said, I wonder if "redeem" is the right word, more like "fundamentally transform to a higher state of being".
Yeah we've gone over that as well.
 
  • Lunacy
Reactions: Sexual Chocolate
Yah I hate that fact

I don't know why writers can't just let a villain be a villain. They always have to humanize and redeem them, always.

The Borg were awesome and terrifying as a totally alien mindset. A complete antithesis of humanity and thus almost unfathomable. But noooo, here's the Borg Queen and she's totally hot for Data and Picard. So stupid. All the mystery and fear is gone as the Borg are just another funny colored human. Such a waste of an iconic villain.

Same for Q

He should have stayed as a unknowable rogue, omnipotent and all powerful. Is he here to help? Is he just here to fuck with us? Who knows? Who can know as the Q are as beyond humanity as we are beyond ants. But wait! Here's Q pal'ing around with Vashj and letting Sisko punch him. Even better he's helping Janeway now and getting his wai-fu pregant cuz that's totally something a post-physcial being would do and showing humans how the Q are pretty much the same as them by getting bored of life and wanted to die. They completely destroy his importance, his menace and his mystery by dumb'ing him down to our level.

Fuck, I refuse to think of Q as anything other then he appeared in "All Good Things.." which he was perfect in. Full of menace and mystery. Is he causing this event? Is it another test? Is he serious this time? It was bang on.
The worst has to be what they did Species 8472. In just about any other work of fiction, the bad guys saying "Oh, we didn't really mean to say we intended to exterminate all life in your galaxy, that was just a misunderstanding. Now, please give us the only weapon capable of destroying us, and we promise never to be naughty again." would be a sign that they were plotting some kind of evil plan and intended to double-cross the heroes. But nope, that's the end of it, and they never appear again. Makes me wonder if there was some kind of follow-up planned, but it never came to fruition.

Oh for fucks sake. Let's get it straight that Picard wanted to try talking to the crystal first, he wasn't going to let it roam but at least ATTEMPT a peaceful solution of "please don't eat us" THEN blow it up if that failed.
I can see what they were attempting to do with that episode, but IMO they fucked up by making it a follow-up to "Datalore". Picard's actions make sense so long as it's a possibility that the Crystalline Entity doesn't know it's eating intelligent life-forms, but in the earlier episode Lore pretty much told the entity that they were intelligent and that they'd need to pull a ruse so that the entity could eat the Enterprise crew.
 
So Shatner went to space and came back. Fucking legend.

Voyager had an interesting idea for the Borg with Unamatrix Zero. A lot more could've been done with the idea of how Borg perception differs from reality - like, what if their entire existence was an MMO or something to keep them docile? While they're doing horrible, genocidey things that terrorize the galaxy, the average drone's perception filters make him think he's the hero.
There were a few episodes where 7 of 9 would talk about her experience in the hivemind and there were a couple of POV-shots that were mostly just distorted fisheye vision and muffled sounds. What you describe wouldn't work with the whole hivemind thing, since the perception as a hero would necessitate a perception of a self. I mean, I'm not against it, there's a great flavor-text in the RPG rulebook for Degenesis, where some human mindslave to a mutant hivemind has a short glimpse of his nightmarish surroundings as they are before sinking back into the pleasant feverdream of his pheromone-busted delusions. It would make for a great plot, but not for the Borg, I think.

Unimatrix Zero was more of a naptime playground that some drones somehow jacked into to have a secret live apart from being drones, I always thought it felt kinda tacked on to explain how the Voyager can overcome the Borg by the end. I mean, 7 of 9 suddenly realizes that she was Annika Hanson in Unimatrix Zero all along... doesn't that go against her entire character concept of overcoming decades of being a drone and rediscovering her own humanity and individuality?

Anyway, the Borg could have gone deeper into bodyhorror I think. I recently saw a video where scientists put a piece of a rat's brain into a tiny robot that has basic perception. The robot could navigate the room, evade obstacles and it could be remote controlled. You can't even fathom the kind of dread I feel when I try to imagine what this would feel like if there was just the smallest bit of active perception and conciousness left. When just enough of you is left over to understand that you're a couple of neurons stuck in a nightmarish contraption, forced to react to input from the outside. The Borg could do something similar with their own drones:

After realizing that Borg drones can relapse into becoming individuals upon being seperated from their hivemind for too long, the Borg could do some really weird shit like literally removing a person's cerebrum, so there is nothing but a lizard-brain controlled by electronics and the wishes of the hivemind. This could only affect a small portion of new drones, but I feel there are so many possibilities to dive deeper into endless depths of hell that could be the Borg. They were always a bit goofy looking with their blinking rubber suits, random hoses and flappy claws on their arms. Maybe it could go a bit like the Godemperor in WH40K on his throne or the failed Robocops in Robocop 2. Only now it's and entire army of them.

I don't know why writers can't just let a villain be a villain. They always have to humanize and redeem them, always.

The Borg were awesome and terrifying as a totally alien mindset. A complete antithesis of humanity and thus almost unfathomable. But noooo, here's the Borg Queen and she's totally hot for Data and Picard. So stupid. All the mystery and fear is gone as the Borg are just another funny colored human. Such a waste of an iconic villain.

The less we know and understand a force like the Borg, the better they work. The things we can't understand or know are usually the things that fill us with the greatest terror and many times, knowing details makes something less nightmarish. With the Borg it's sort of really easy on one hand and really hard on the other.

On one hand, when you assume that they operate in a way to be incomrehensible to humans, simply cause all decisions happen on a scale way beyond human understanding, you can have them do seemingly random shit and go "Nah, you just don't get it. It makes perfect sense to them." and get away with it, but I think if their actions have a connecting red thread to hint at things, it works best, since it keeps the audience from getting on to you just doing random shit.
The hard part is to keep that red thread clear enough to make the audience understand that it isn't just random shit, but still so vague that beyond that, finding out what's going on is beyond their actual understanding. They know there is something to connect the dots, they just can't wrap their head around it.

Let me put it like this: From within their own "hivemind", time (and thus also space) is entirely irrelevant. Time only makes sense when your existence is limited, but the hivemind is for all intents and purposes eternal. They might make plans that span literal millions of years in scale, it doesn't matter to them. They might lose thousands of their ships and millions of drones, but what is that to a hivemind counting millions of ships and trillions of drones? It's a waste of resources to be avoided for sure, but their means of production could be virtually unlimited.

I'm not too keen on the queen, it makes the whole bee-hive thing seem a bit too on the nose. Adding the queen could be interesting, but it should serve a more signifcant point and it's dubious at best whether that's actually possible to pull off. In general, the kind of villain that the Borg are is anathema to Star Trek, since in order to really pull them off, the whole thing would need to be much more grimderp.

He should have stayed as a unknowable rogue, omnipotent and all powerful. Is he here to help? Is he just here to fuck with us? Who knows? Who can know as the Q are as beyond humanity as we are beyond ants. But wait! Here's Q pal'ing around with Vashj and letting Sisko punch him. Even better he's helping Janeway now and getting his wai-fu pregant cuz that's totally something a post-physcial being would do and showing humans how the Q are pretty much the same as them by getting bored of life and wanted to die. They completely destroy his importance, his menace and his mystery by dumb'ing him down to our level.

As has been said, Q is a Trickster and more in line with Greek gods that do weird shit to amuse themselves. Q could have taken a certain liking to Voyager simply cause it is a tiny little ship that ended up in a place where it doesn't belong and Q, who operates under circumstances and on a scale much like the Borg, just kinda took a liking to them.
You bring up ants and humans as an analogy to humans and Q, but think about it this way: How often have you taken a stroll through nature, strutting along a path not minding all the bugs that you might step on or who are disturbed by your presence? And then you come across a tiny beetle that somehow ended up on its back in the middle of the road. You pick it up carefully and put it somewhere safe before you continue to strut down the path. That's kinda what Q does with humanity. He's just farting around in space, stumbling over humanity and on a whim, he decides to fuck around with them to pass time.

The Borg's origin in that trilogy really angered people. That said, I wonder if "redeem" is the right word, more like "fundamentally transform to a higher state of being".
So, what is the origin story in that book?

I always imagined that the Borg used to be a humanoid species that was a bit too keen on the whole cyborg-transhumanism stuff, which escalated one way or the other into what we know and love as the Borg.
 
Back