So earlier you said more than half the resettled Jews died of hunger and disease, and we can add to that these large scale killings, which increase the number of dead further into the millions?
It seems like your views are pretty far from typical revisionism. According to metapedia, total deaths are likely between 250k and 750k
View attachment 2794251
Now you are closer (maybe much closer) to Holocaust believers in terms of death toll though you still reject the main thesis of organized genocide, instead saying it was a justified response to mass rebellions.
Essentially yes. There are massive gaps in public knowledge, but I think it is probably wishful thinking that most of the jews survived, and I can't find any evidence to support this. Though I can't say the majority of them died in shootings specifically, only that the majority of them died as a combination of shootings, famine, disease and the war (as collateral damage or conscription into the red army). Shootings were definitely a major factor though. What I cannot fathom, is how the mainstream historians have completely omitted this facet from the narrative, and neither sides of the debate have ever fully pressed upon the totality of the partisan war being fought in the east. First of all, what number of people would one assume to be partisans? Maybe 5-10% of able-bodied males? So 1-3% of the population? Yes, that is a rational estimate, but completely wrong. Try 100% in some places, literally entire ghettoes, fleeing into the forests with their families and linking up with Soviet groups. Or ghettoes that secretly fortified themselves with bunkers and shot at the Germans when they approached, which resulted in the entire town being executed in response.
We can test the two hypotheses against available evidence to see which one fits best. Earlier you presented trial testimony from Hans Lammers, an official who seems to have had very little to with the Holocaust or resettlement. Better to go as close to the source as possible
Here Mattogno quotes a report from the governor of Belarus 'Combating Partisans and Aktion Against Jews in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia' which also talks about the near total planned reduction of Jews in the area. What do you make of it?
btw, the liquidations he is talking about are clearly shootings--see Mattogno's comments at the bottom
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These shootings don't seem to be in response to uprisings in ghettos. This isn't mentioned once--rather the report concludes on this note: "the danger that the partisans will, in future, derive any important support from the Jews will then have ceased to exist"
According to German records for the same time period (August 1942) , Minsk ghetto had been reduced (by perhaps 90% )to 9,000 Jews. The ghetto was not fully liquidated until October 1943.
EDIT: Forgot that the report continues actually, with Mattogno omitting an important line (different translation here)
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
I can definitely say that there was near-universal contact between jewish ghettoes (all the ghettoes, big and small) and partisan groups. Sometimes the German actions were preventative and based on the intelligence that was available to the Germans. Like anyone dealing with clandestine groups, they have to act based on tips and informants, they're not omniscient enough to know who is innocent and who isn't, and the Germans were more inclined to shoot innocent people on suspicion of partisan involvement than allow a mass rebellion to collapse their entire war effort. As the situation boiled over, it must have looked to the Germans something like "aha! I knew the jews would reveal their true colors... they're all communists!"; and to the jews it must have looked like "aha! I knew the Germans would reveal their true colors... they're going to kill us all!" So they began to sweep hot-spot regions, putting as many people as they could into camps and shooting the rest.
So first of all, for context:
Both before and after Geman occupation, there were MASSIVE amounts of jewish refugees. So regions the Germans occupied did not have their full population as censuses before the war, and in population censuses AFTER the war, losses are not fully attributable to deaths. There were >340,000 refugees from the Germans before occupation (according to mainstream sources); and there were hundreds of thousands more who fled to the USA and Israel and other places after the war. So there is a big question of whether these people are being wrongfully claimed as deaths.
Between the Nazi rise to power in 1933 and Nazi Germany's surrender in 1945, more than 340,000 Jews emigrated from Germany and Austria. Tragically, nearly 100,000 of them found refuge in countri...
encyclopedia.ushmm.org
Between the Nazi rise to power in 1933 and Nazi Germany's surrender in 1945, more than 340,000 Jews emigrated from Germany and Austria.
After Germany annexed Austria in March 1938 and particularly after the Kristallnacht pogroms of November 9–10, 1938, nations in western Europe and the Americas feared an influx of refugees. About 85,000 Jewish refugees (out of 120,000 Jewish emigrants) reached the United States between March 1938 and September 1939, but this level of immigration was far below the number seeking refuge. In late 1938, 125,000 applicants lined up outside US consulates hoping to obtain 27,000 visas under the existing immigration quota. By June 1939, the number of applicants had increased to over 300,000. Most visa applicants were unsuccessful. At the Evian Conference in July 1938, only the Dominican Republic stated that it was prepared to admit significant numbers of refugees, although Bolivia would admit around 30,000 Jewish immigrants between 1938 and 1941.
Over 60,000 German Jews immigrated to Palestine during the 1930s, most under the terms of the Haavara (Transfer) Agreement. This agreement between Germany and the Jewish authorities in Palestine facilitated Jewish emigration to Palestine. The main obstacle to emigration of Jews from Germany was German legislation banning the export of foreign currency. According to the agreement, Jewish assets in Germany would be disposed of in an orderly manner and the resulting capital transferred to Palestine through the export of German products. The British White Paper in May 1939, a policy statement approved by the British Parliament, contained measures that severely limited Jewish entry into Palestine.
After the war, hundreds of thousands of survivors found shelter as displaced persons in camps administered by the western Allies in Germany, Austria, and Italy. In the US, immigration restrictions were still in effect, although the Truman Directive of 1945, which authorized priority to be given within the quota system to displaced persons, permitted 16,000 Jewish DPs to enter the United States.
With the establishment of Israel in May 1948, Jewish refugees began streaming into that new sovereign state. Some 140,000 Holocaust survivors entered Israel during the next few years. The United States admitted 400,000 displaced persons between 1945 and 1952. Approximately 96,000 (roughly 24 percent) of them were Jews who had survived the Holocaust.
Jewish involvement in the red army was heavy
Citing Abba Kovner, the partisan fighter and later Israeli poet, Steve Bowman, Professor of Judaic Studies at the University of Cincinnati, writes that “the forefront of the battle against the Nazi invaders in Lithuania consisted of Jews” while “The Lithuanian division in the Red Army was 70 percent Jewish, including officers, and the language was Yiddish.”
Official sources are from very biased organizations, and admit to massive gaps in knowledge
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Though this is the best information available, it is based on estimates and cannot take into the unknown number of victims whose bodies were never recovered or for whom there were no records. The Nazis kept detailed records of the people who passed through the camps; nevertheless, we do not know how many Jews may still have been unaccounted for in the many places where they were murdered. In addition, as the Allies began to close in on Germany, the Nazis began to destroy their records. We also don’t know the precise number of Jews in any of these areas. The population data ranges from 1937-1941 so, for example, the countries where the figures came from 1937 may not accurately reflect the number of Jews at the time the war began.
I've selected a few stories, which I think tell a good story of how things unfolded. These stories are all consecutive, one encyclopedia entry after the other, so they weren't cherry-picked or specially selected in any way, it is actually rather difficult to find an example of a story that doesn't unfold in a fashion something like this. Only the first case was selected by me particularly, because I think it shows an interesting case of Germans siding with jews against non-jews.
Keep in mind, soviet propaganda is in full effect here
Chocienczyce is located about 45 kilometers (28 miles) north
of Minsk. In mid-1941, the village had a Jewish population of
around 80 people.
Population of 80 shortly after being occupied.
At the end of July, a non-
Jew named Zakhar got drunk and tore down Adolf Hitler’s
portrait in the mill where he worked. The Germans arrested
him, but he denied any responsibility, blaming instead two
Jews, Iosif Sosenskii and Izrail Tsimmerman, the mill’s for-
mer owners. These two men were arrested as suspected Com-
munists, but then released following the intervention of deacon
Stepan Leshkevich, the village elder ( starosta), who explained
that the Soviets had confiscated the mill from the two Jews
during the occupation from September 1939 until June 1941.
The Germans then took Zakhar into the forest and shot him.
1941, 2 jews are accused of being communists. The Germans launch an investigation, realize the 2 jews are being falsely accused, and instead released the 2 jews and shot the false-accuser. This illustrates that the Germans were acting based on the belief that there were suspected communists in the occupied territory, and weren't just inventing false excuses to kill jews. They actually weighed the case, and brought about a just verdict. This was in 1941 before the situation boiled over.
Jewish survivors remember a German commander named
Seidler, who organized an Aktion in the late summer or fall of
1941, in which the Jews were first sent home to collect their
possessions. Then they were assembled, including some Jews
brought in from surrounding villages such as Ledwienie. The
Germans beat the Jews and strip- searched them, taking all
their valuables. Subsequently all the Jews were held in a school
hall for several days, while a ghetto was being prepared. Dur-
ing this internment Leshkevich helped them by ensuring that
they were supplied with some water.2
Here is an example of a local German commander abusing his status to abuse the jewish population. But more importantly, it is an example of an Aktion which is not actually a mass killing. It is just a resettlement. You had previously posted that "Aktion" always refers to a mass-killing.
After a few days, probably in October, the Jews were moved
into a ghetto located about 1 kilometer (0.6 miles) outside the
village, which comprised up to five small houses or huts. In
total, there were just under 100 Jews in the ghetto. People
slept crammed together. Initially the ghetto was not enclosed,
but the Jews were forbidden to leave. Later, guards were
posted to enforce this regulation, and it was surrounded with
a barbed-wire fence.3
After resettling all the jews from surrounding villages into the ghetto there were <100 jews. Remember this number.
Also, we see that the ghetto was extremely tiny, with only 5 houses. I believe that the topic of a "housing crisis" was brought up earlier. The Wehrmacht needed houses for its soldiers, during the occupation. So people were forced to live in cramped conditions which aided the spread of disease.
From the ghetto the men were taken out to work, cleaning
and repairing the roads and railroads, while the women did
the washing and made soap for the German garrison. No
food was provided to the ghetto by the Germans, but the local
peasants bartered food with the Jews for their few remaining
possessions. Leshkevich also helped with some supplies of
potatoes, flour, and grain. In the winter of 1941–1942, the
Jews suffered from the extreme cold, but they used melted snow to obtain drinking water.
Daily life in the ghetto. Also: "Jews suffered from the extreme cold" can only mean one thing, deaths during the unusually-cold winter that occurred during that year.
The Jews on work details
heard rumors about killing Aktions conducted against other
Jewish communities nearby, and some Jews made plans to es-
cape to the forests to join the Soviet partisans.4
On March 14, 1942, Soviet partisans attacked the Cho-
cienczyce estate, which enabled some of the Jews from the
ghetto there to flee with the partisans into the forests. In re-
sponse, the German Security Police from Wilejka conducted
a reprisal Aktion against the ghetto in Ilja on March 17, in
which about 600 Jews were murdered.5
With an initial population of 100 jews from the town and surrounding villages, 600 jews were shot. This corroborates what I said that jews WERE resettled east, then died in the east.
Also, this shows the motivations for the jews (hearing rumors of killing Aktions) and contacting soviet partisans for self-preservation. And it shows the motivations of the Germans (response to partisan activity).
The German Security Police planned to liquidate the ghetto
in early June 1942. On the eve of the liquidation, the Jews of
Chocienczyce received warning of the impending Aktion. Ac-
cording to the account of survivor David Rubin, he rushed to
Chocienczyce from Ilja, as soon as he heard about the Aktion
against the Jews in Ilja, which took place on June 6–7, 1942.
Most of the Jews—that is, 15 families, or about 70 people—
fled to the forest; and thanks to the ingenuity, mutual assistance,
and support of local inhabitants, a number of them managed to
hide from the Germans and local police for two years and sur-
vive.7 The remaining Jews in the ghetto (13 people) were shot.8
The end of the ghetto... almost all the remaining jews heard rumors of another aktion and went to join partisans. Only a small number of people were left and were shot in reprisal.
Dereczyn is located 73 kilometers (46 miles) west-northwest
of Baranowicze. In 1921, the Jewish population of Dereczyn
was 1,346.
Another ghetto, 1346 people according to latest census
On October 6, 1941 (at the time of Sukkot), the German
authorities forced a group of Jews from Dereczyn to dig a
large pit some 45 meters (148 feet) long, 20 meters (66 feet)
wide, and 4 meters (13 feet) deep outside the town. The men
returned exhausted after 36 hours. It was not clear what the
pit was for, but many received the impression they had been
digging their own graves
Jews being used to dig pits, but no killings were taking place in 1941. This corroborates what I said in regards to our earlier conversation... "digging pit" isn't synonymous with "killed". They were most likely digging trenches or mass graves for soldiers.
The ghetto in Dereczyn was set up in several stages, such
that it is not possible to specify a precise date for its establish-
ment. Soon after their arrival, the Germans evicted Jews from
some of the best houses, taking them for themselves. Then,
during the winter of 1941– 1942, the German administration
issued certificates to those Jews deemed “essential” on account
of their skills as craftsmen, although some Jews were able also
to buy such certificates using bribes. These “essential” Jews
consisting of about 500 people, were permitted to live in their
own collective area composed of workshops, to which non-Jews
also had access in order to request their services. Probably in
March 1942, the remaining few hundred Jews from the nearby
villages of Hołynka, Jeziornica, and Kolonia Sinaiska were
brought to Dereczyn and confined within the same small area
as the 2,000 or so “non-essential” Jews living in Dereczyn.
Another ghetto was massively expanded in population, while once again we see the Germans seizing houses for military lodging. Here, the surrounding villages are brought to the ghetto AFTER the ghetto had already been doubled in size. Once again, corroborating that jews WERE resettled east by the Germans.
By May or June of 1942, at the latest, the ghetto for the non-
craftsmen had become enclosed, and according to one account,
some 2,880 Jews were living together crammed into only 34
small cottages.6
Housing crisis, wehrmacht lodgings, etc.
Due to poor sanitary conditions, there were
epidemics in the ghetto, and many Jews died of disease and
starvation.
Resulting disease
News of Aktions in the surrounding towns encouraged
Jewish youths to organize an underground movement. The
underground collected weapons clandestinely and prepared
to leave for the forests to join the partisans. However, as it was
feared that the Germans would murder the remaining Jews in
the event of an escape, the plan was only to use the weapons
and flee as a last resort, when an Aktion commenced. Many
Jews also prepared bunkers for hiding inside the ghetto, as the
expectation of an Aktion increased.8
Town becomes affiliated with partisans, forms bunkers in expectation of shootout with wehrmacht. Germans come in, how it ends is predictable. End of ghetto.
Dokshytsy is located about 110 kilometers (69 miles) north-
northeast of Minsk. In 1925, the Jewish population was
around 3,000.
An underground movement existed in the ghetto, estab-
lished by members of a Zionist or ganization. The Germans
forced the Jewish men to perform heavy labor, and Jewish
women also had to work as maids in private households. The
Jews received no payment for their work other than some
slices of bread, pieces of meat, or a little tobacco.4 The daily
ration was only about 200 to 300 grams (7 to 11 ounces) of
bread, and there were cases of death by starvation and disease
in the ghetto. J
Yet more talk about starvation and disease and organized partisan activity
On several occasions the Judenrat intervened with the Ger-
man authorities to try to alleviate harsh conditions. For exam-
ple, they managed to open a synagogue in the ghetto and even
got the ghetto area expanded slightly, adding Keydarum Street,
by complaining about the threat of disease.
Germans actually did try to alleviate the harsh conditions to the degree they were able to, by reopening the synagogue and expanding the housing available to the jews, to alleviate disease
5 The Judenrat was
not directly involved in the Aktions against the Jews. In 1942,
the Judenrat organized a system of internal guards (probably
the Jewish policemen) that closely observed the activities of the
Germans and local police guarding the ghetto, warning the
inhabitants about any hint of an upcoming Aktion
Town council (Judenrat) was spying on the Germans
The liquidation of the Dokszyce ghetto took place in three
separate Aktions conducted between March and June 1942. In
the first Aktion, about two weeks after the Purim holiday, the
German Gendarmerie shot some 60 Jews in Dokszyce, appar-
ently intended by the Gebietskommissar as a warning to the
Jews against having any contact with the partisans. 6
First shooting was only 60 people, warning them against collaborating with partisans. So clearly German suspicion was on them, but it doesn't mention specifically why.
During the sweep, the Germans found 15 Russian bullets in the possession of the head of the Jewish Council.
Germans found partisan weaponry in the possession of the jewish council leader.
Ghetto liquidated, end of ghetto.
Dothinów is located 41.5 kilometers (26 miles) east-northeast
of Wilejka. In 1921, the Jewish population was 1,747 (out of a
total of 2,671). At the time of the German occupation, there
were approximately 5,000 inhabitants in the town, of which
about 3,000 were Jews.
After a few days of occupation, the Germans arrested five
Jews on suspicion of collaborating with the Soviets. They
dragged the suspects out of their houses, took them outside
the town on the road to Wilejka, and shot them.
Germans executed only suspected communists early on in the occupation
After a few weeks, a food shortage began to take its toll on
the Jewish population, whose major means of obtaining food
was to barter with the Poles and Belorus sians in contraven-
tion of German regulations. Some Jews gave their valuables
to non-Jewish friends to keep them safe from German searches
and demands for contributions. Jews were conscripted for
physical labor on a regular basis by the Germans via the
Judenrat. Jewish girls also had to work as housemaids for the
Germans.1
Food shortages, forced labor. Women were given lighter work than the men.
In March 1942, two Jews, named Mincel and Sigalczyk,
tried to leave for the forests to establish contact with the parti-
sans. They were intercepted by German guards but managed
to escape from prison. The German authorities then threat-
ened Niomka Riyer, the head of the Judenrat, that all the Jews
of Dołhinów would be killed if the two were not handed over.
This is where things get bad for this ghetto. Here we can see that the Germans DID warn them.
Shortly afterwards, on March 30, just before Passover, the
Jews woke up to discover that German forces had arrived in
trucks. Together with local collaborators, they began arrest-
ing Jews and bringing them to the market square, where a se-
lection took place. A small number of those arrested whowere
necessary to the Germans were left alive; the rest were taken
outside the town, to Lemlin’s factory at “Krochmalniyah” on
the road to Minsk, where they were stripped of their clothes
and shot without delay.
Germans make good on their earlier promise.
As many Jews emerged from their hiding places, they beheld a horrifying sight: houses broken into and corpses in the streets. The Germans issued instructions through the Judenrat to collect the bodies and bury them in mass graves. As the earth was still frozen, it took many days before all the bodies were buried.
So many holocaust advocates seem to emphasize the idea that the massacres were all secretive and carried out in the woods where nobody could see, against an unsuspecting jewish population. That is a lie. The Germans were very clear, they were shooting anyone involved in partisan activity, and the killings were very open, as a warning.
Over the following two days
the ghetto was liquidated except for several hundred skilled
craftsmen who were spared immediate death. More than 1,000
Jews were escorted out of town to the east and shot. According
to a Waffen-SS report, “the Aktion in Dołhinów was remark-
able in that the Jews had prepared proper bunkers as hiding
places. For two days we had to search and clear out [the ghetto]
partly with the aid of hand-grenades.”5
The town had prepared bunkers and had a shoot-out with the Wehrmacht. In reprisal, the Germans carried out a mass shooting, send the most valuable workers elsewhere, and dissolved the ghetto.
