General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[Harbinger of Kali Yuga]

If Heliogabalus was an actual troon, it just shows that these freaks always act in absolutely hideous ways whenever it is possible. Ancient Rome was just unfortunate enough to get one of these scumbag perverts as an emperor. They had to assassinate him to get him from destroying the empire.

I hope we don't have to go so far with the current batch of troons, but if so, okay.

Elagabalus is just an example, and frankly I doubt most of the craziest things written by Roman Emperors because all our sources are decades or centuries after the fact and most of them were inherently hostile to these Emperors, Caracalla, Caligula, and Nero included. Elagabalus also started off very young--he died at 18, so we need to be careful we don't conflate immaturity or other circumstances.

And yeah, Malevolent Grimace, that's kind of why I brought up DID. I see parallels with how DID is onset and most modern transgenderism.

 

[AnOminous]

Elagabalus is just an example, and frankly I doubt most of the craziest things written by Roman Emperors because all our sources are decades or centuries after the fact and most of them were inherently hostile to these Emperors, Caracalla, Caligula, and Nero included. Elagabalus also started off very young--he died at 18, so we need to be careful we don't conflate immaturity or other circumstances.

And yeah, Malevolent Grimace, that's kind of why I brought up DID. I see parallels with how DID is onset and most modern transgenderism.

It used to be that people who could exercise their most extreme and perverse characteristics were, by definition, extremely rich and powerful. Hence, we had the perversity of Roman emperors with nearly infinite wealth and power.

Short of assassinating them, Heliogabalus being an example, how would society stop them?

Now, even people on welfare can express their most revolting characteristics without penalty.

How is this working for us?

 

[ArtificialSneeze]

This might add to the discussion: https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up

In short, the author argues that the underlying causes of claiming a trans identity are universal, but trans identities themselves, are not:

But the existence of two-spirit people and fa’afafine is evidence for something very different: There is something universal underlying the phenomenon of all these variations of gender expression and gender identity, but the fact that gender expression around the world is so diverse reveals that the identities themselves are culturally created. The specific and highly varied cultural manifestations of gender identity are not universals. That means we need to take a closer look to figure out what’s really universal and what’s not.

 

[Owner of a Lonely Hole]

I feel a little like a freshman trying to intrude in a discussion among graduate students, but I find this discussion to be so fascinating and productive in a way that is hard to come by on KF.

@Harbinger of Kali Yuga I think your thoughts re biological bases of transgenderism are interesting, but I have some thoughts/questions: Would you consider a behavior like oh…say….”cutting” to have a biological basis? Cutting being a measurable behavior, which could then have implications for “identity.” (Like crossdressing)
Surely bodily mutilation has manifested in humanity across history and cultures. Sometimes in the context of rites of passage, sometimes in response to mental illness, sometimes even as religious worship, so on.
I think that “cutting” or bodily mutilation as cutting can manifest from an organic cause in the sense that you can follow the thread down to something like OCD for example. And if you believe that OCD has a neurobiological basis (which I think is the consensus these days) that someone who has OCD and cuts themselves as a manifestation of that….then the mutilation or cutting has a biological basis in that sense.
But I think it would oversimplifying to say that the mutilation was due to biology. The OCD is due to biology, but the behavior is an outgrowth of complicating factors, including culture. Someone who has OCD in one culture may be more likely to develop rituals relating to cutting than someone with OCD from another culture…if that makes sense?
So what I am somewhat inartfully trying to get at is that while the conditions that may result in “transgenderism” might ultimately be bioligical in origin, the behavior in response to said conditions is decidedly not. I think that “gender” exists only as a cultural condition of the reality of dimorphic biological sex, and that unless gender is measurably biological phenomenon, then transgenderism cannot truly exist in a measurable way.

Did that make any sense at all?

 

[Mellow Malevolent]

This might add to the discussion: https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up

In short, the author argues that the underlying causes of claiming a trans identity are universal, but trans identities themselves, are not:

This is a good piece.

One of things I think it's important to keep in mind with discussions of the biological origin of "transness" is that gender dysphoria manifests in a lot more people than just those who will transition. Upwards of 90% of children who express some kind of gender dysphoria will not transition. It is again a much more predictive factor of being gay, like gender variant behavioral tendencies. It is impossible to disentangle gender expression and sexuality, because they are interrelated neurologically. Gendered behavior also obviously has some sort of biological basis, which can be seen in things like the whole slew of studies that shows that children have a strong tendency to prefer toys typed to their gender. If a child shows strongly gender atypical behavior, and/or experiences gender dysphoria, there are much more likely to report being gay than being trans.

When you look at third gender categories across cultures, they don't differentiate between homosexual and transgender behavior. The only place where there might be in that sort of differentiation is between the active and passive partner in same-sex male intercourse. But it's likely that trans gender is just a modern label and conceptualization we have placed on the phenomenon of gender variance. The question then becomes, is the narrative that we present in our culture leading people to make choices that they would otherwise not, such as SRS.

 

[Ser Prize]

This is why, like other cults, the instant someone gets the cock inversion, they do a "study" demanding a testimonial that they're totally satisfied with it. Amazingly, when you ask for a satisfaction survey of a bunch of dudes who just had their balls removed and their cocks turned into stink ditches, they're pretty invested in that and will insist it was a great idea.

That's a lot different than a longitudinal study looking for ultimate results like whether someone joined the 41% ten years later.

There is very little evidence this cock chop bullshit actually has good long-term results.

It's just bad science. Like I cannot think of another way to interpret "modifying a healthy human body via drugs and experimental surgery in an attempt to appease a disassociation with reality" as anything but just plain bad science.

 

[Sweetpeaa]

The ''Troon'' on Jeopardy is a total mystery to me. How can a person so smart be into this stupid troon shit?

 

[Agarathium1066]

The ''Troon'' on Jeopardy is a total mystery to me. How can a person so smart be into this stupid troon shit?

Psychological intelligence and maturity isn't the same as knowledge, practice, and good memory is my take. Also if you are being gaslit into believing something even the most intelligent mind can crack given time.

 

[Mellow Malevolent]

Being smart just gives you better ways to rationalize your delusions. Critical thinking is a specific skill set that doesn't automatically correlate with intelligence.

 

[Deepland Bystander]

Like previously mentioned, CAIS is a separate medical issue that really does produce XY women that, while they have male gonads inside them... are phenotypically hyperfeminine. Seeing some people say that XY is male and XX is female and that's that, case closed, like you do so often from various people leaning to the right totally misunderstands the messy biology behind embryonic sex differentiation. CAIS individuals despite their internal gonads have few obvious indications they are chromosomally male and treating a CAIS individual as male is just something someone would argue for if they couldn't admit how utterly wrong they were on the subject (not necessarily you, but others on KF).

This also has consequences for the right wing postulating that transgenderism is a metal illness that should be treated as such. The problem is, if transgenderism is a result of development after wonky hormonal shit goes down or whatever, their brain structures, possibly, may have permanently developed this way. So if (true) transgenderism is indeed a true biological phenomenon then there's nothing that can be done but accept them as they are.

First bit : I think it is narrow minded to say that everyone who question transgender phenomenon as rightoid,... I mean, I do understand that narrow minded right wing views can look like.. but I don't think 'all

I found your view interesting and you feel like you know what you're talking about... but I don't think I can completely agree with it, and I can get your point that there might be biological reason why 'transgenderism' is not just a 'mental illness' due to whatever the wonkiness that goes in and that there brains structure may be masculinised or feminimised in the way that is different from the norm... the thing is, Would that kind of brain changes really make someone 'trans', or simply it is our culture that let it happen?

And when I say trans, I specify modern, 1st world construct of being trans where they should be treated exactly as the opposite sex. Yes, there are people who want to present as opposite sex throughout the history - but that is not the indication that 'transitioning in modern, 1st world sense' is a correct path to deal with it.

You may have seen the studies that homosexual people actually do have sex-atypical development for the brain - but what makes someone truly dysphoric/trans seemed to be based on body mapping related functions... which isn't particularly gender related, the same feature can be presented as other kind of body dysmorphia - so this is where I believe environment comes to play. I'm actually from a country where 'transitioning' is high, but people there don't see 'what would be MtFs in the west', as truly like female people, but rather their own social category of third gender and the reality of them being male is still acknowledged... so they are not really trans, don't you think? If they have dysphoria, it would present entirely different from westerners and yet I don't think I can really compare their brains... but it made me think that while gender non-conformity might be biological, 'transgender identity' is cultural.

What if we managed to find a brain function that may indicate inclination of someone to be trans, but there are also 'gender non-conforming' population who have the same brain difference but do not want to transition.. how would we even decide with this from physical standpoint alone?

Also I kind of disagree with you about CAIS, and my opinions probably lies closer to Malevolent Grimace, Of course, there have been people who lived, loved, and died throughout history not knowing that they actually had male part. And then throughout the history there have been people who believed giant throwing hammers from the sky caused thunder before we understood electricity. - Well, treating them as 'male' in the close-minded rightoid argument that XY = male and XX = female doesn't make a lot of sense, but there are significant physical differences they have that would not match perfectly female person either because there are a lot of development that are dependent from SRY-based blueprint but not as related to hormones (skull size and body proportion seem to be one), and we may eventually learn and discover more of it... so i don't think it's correct to say that they're identical to normal female either, even if they may appear similar to one externally.

It's certainly a thought-provoking condition - but may I ask, can we just see them as 'their own being' with all the physiological messiness that came with it, or do we need to put them strictly male/female box? It's not necessarily rightoid mindset I'm talking here, but the idea that someone has to be defined through standardised term (even though the term keep getting muddy)... is a common process in both left wing and right wing by people coming from Protestant-dominated culture. The need for thing to be pure and perfect, fitting into their mental category seems to be a bigger culprit. Can't there be a 'multiple level' of understanding reality and acknowledgement, can't there be thought-improvisation when something doesn't fit into our standard - can someone be a woman in one sense and not in another?

Like @Malevolent Grimace said again.. "It's actually the birth of modern rationalist science, along with things like eugenics, that got people in interested in classifying mental disorders and pathologized a whole ton of things that people just accepted previously".. and I feel like rationalism and enlightenment can feel like a secular version of protestantism

 

[AnOminous]

99.99% of all troon arguments by a troon can be resolved by just pointing out "lmao you're a dude."

 

[Totallyunknown]

After months of a weird autistic obsession with gender studies overall, I feel like I've finally come on my own conclusive theories on things, but if legitimate science (not surveys) proves me wrong in the future then I'll eat my hat.

Spoiler: Its a personality disorder

I don't believe transgenderism is a mental illness - I believe it's a sort of learned personality disorder which had several factors that can come together to create the disorder. I believe that something like schizophrenia is not the same as obsessive compulsive disorder so when I say its not a mental illness, I'm saying it's not schizophrenia, it's more like OCD. No one is born with a personality disorder, it's something they evolve through interpersonal experiences over a period of time usually through some sort of traumatic event or prolonged stress.

In this case, with complete irony, there is a distinct difference in how women and men display the disorder. This can be seen in other personality disorders and mental illnesses by non-trans people regardless of their concept of sex and gender.

Men are primarily driven by sex with a small percentage likely experiencing childhood trauma regarding their homosexuality and choosing to cope with that by being essentially what they were bullied into because of lack of resources otherwise to cope.

Women were primarily driven by escaping societies ideas of being a woman whether that be a butch lesbian who was not accepted as such or a victim of sexual abuse. Both the bullied homosexuals and women of a certain time had higher inclinations and desires to simply blend in and pass so they could avoid their personal traumatic experiences in their daily life.

The two caveats are the men driven by sex at one time were shamed into their bedrooms to wear their wives bra while they were out playing bridge with the girls.

Spoiler: Weird 90s sex and the internet happened

What happened was two things: 90s sexual liberation- not just "feminism" but comparing a 90s sitcom to the 70s - western society on a whole was liberating itself from what we felt was stifling sexual freedom. It was a time when mainstream movies with softcover porn were released in theaters for the everyday person to casually see. This did help open a door for the acceptance of gays and lesbians.

But what quickly followed was the age of information in the hands of a western society which on a mental whole had just decided gays were not like pedophiles. This and perhaps munchausens are the two personality disorders that evolved with the internet. It allowed the average person to become exposed during vulnerable times, to indulge in the delusions almost all of the time, to find and share information and stories and the doctors willing to concede to demands.

In munchausens, most doctors cannot really diagnose someone as having it because they may not have the evidence to really say so and if they're wrong, they'd probably lose their job. So we have the entire munchausens by internet thread, where people somehow continue for years with the most obvious signs of faking it until they start to harm themselves to try and justify their ongoing attention seeking.

In the 90s, you couldn't access any medical information so the average person can only guess or become a nurse or get into a medical field to pick up this information.

But now you can find things you don't even look for just by typing one symptom in to Google.

Spoiler: You'll have to lock them all up

So this is obviously a direct comparison to the trans evolution online. And part of that evolution involved exposing young girls to degenerate pornography for this weird little sub-sect of women seemingly driven by similar sexual delusions as their majority of their male counter parts.

If we look at munchausens today, the only way you can feasibly begin recovery would be a situation that looked like an asylum if the person does not just fully admit to all wrong doing, depending on how long they've been doing it. They cannot access the internet, their phone, any medical literature, their environment would be stripped of any medical talk, they'd probably be secluded for an extensive period of intense therapy which may or may not cure or even lessen the disorder if they were released. Information and attention are the two main driving factors.

So when I see the arguments of like when will this end - it won't. From an individual stand point: It's a disorder that if not caught early enough can never be fully cured of the trauma you'll inflict on yourself. Access to the internet itself is an hourly dose of hormones for them so early intervention with therapy and critical thinking does need to be involved.

Spoiler: Politics supports a cult that grooms kids

In a very unprecented event in society, political types saw the new transgenderism as an opportunity. Trans are the new blacks. It became extremely incentivizing for an average politician to buy into the perception of an oppressed people, especially when they ran their websites. With munchausens, there are always unsuspecting victims of the scammer. They are just naive enough to believe this person is sick and needs help and will donate because the idea of lying about cancer is outrageous. Just as the idea of lieing about the idea you think you're a woman on the inside is outrageous. The average naive possibly uneducated person will always take the claims of these disorders at face value.

Exclusanic has a very decent theory on transgenderism evolving into a cult now. Which is reasonable to me. The transgender people pre internet either stayed in their bedrooms or lived a rough life as a pariah of society because it was somehow better than being gay if they "pass" in public.

Post internet gave a platform and ability for the like minded sex driven trans men to gather and build their theories. Look at the early weird sex life of L Ron Hubbard and his involvement with Crowley. They just hung out and talked about concepts and theories and did weird sex shit.

And like every single cult ever formed - they started grooming children. It's literally in the handbook of how to run a cult. Even the biggest retard knows children are impressionable sponges that you can train early on. And if you can get hundreds or thousands of children to grow up repeating your doctinatrion, you're essentially the new scientology.

And scientology is still here, still recruiting members, still supported by the legal system, still possibly getting away with murders and other weird crimes.

But scientology tells you that psychiatry is wrong and they know the answers. The trans cult used their political network to change the basis of psychiatry itself to support their ideology. That's something Hubbard would be envious of.

Furthermore, because they are sex driven men mostly shaping the foundations of this growing cult, because there is evidence of the "incel to troon pipeline" - they are using very simple psychological manipulation tactics of using women and women's rights and the image of women so you continue to debate whether or not they are a woman while they use it as the opportunity to spread the word of the doctrine and groom more individuals so that they can comfortably enjoy their degeneracy in public. That's why you rarely hear about women who identify as men - the ones who developed the disorder through real trauma usually don't want to out themselves to the point of posting their armskin dick on Reddit. Those that do all share a similar degeneracy.

In conclusion, there is nothing you can do about a personality disorder that cannot be proved or disproved because of the invention of the internet and as long as the internet exists in complete free access, there will always be transgender people. But you can thank them for showing the massive, massive holes in mental health, therapy, psychiatry and to some degree the medical industry which most people assumed did not exist.

You can do the same thing they do and arm yourself with as much information as possible because I think politically it's a smoke cloud that the information era is officially information warfare at its greatest evolution yet.

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

 

[Chief Nigwelfacheqee]

This the place to put this?

Some current trans outrage vs the dev of Tabletop Simulator.

 

[potato in mah painus]

This the place to put this?

Some current trans outrage vs the dev of Tabletop Simulator.

Been following this, twitter is currently review and report bombing the game on steam hoping to get it pulled.
This game has a strict no sexual content rule in global chat, needless to say the troons are not happy they can't piss and shit all over said rule freely like on other platforms.

 

[RussianBlonde]

I was supportive of trans back in a day when everyone else found them icky and deranged. I remember reading some psycho medical diagnosis and thought to myself, it's a disorder, their sex change won't harm anyone.

Well, that was stupid of me because it's harming me as a woman today. They are after women's space, they don't want to have trans space. They are trans when it's convenient and 'women' when it's convenient. We're women ALL the time. It's not a costume we can take on and off.

On that note, im in Poland where trans madness is non existent. We have one thats famous, his name is Rafalala (real name Rafał).

Hes a total freak and likes to provoke people, as a result he gets punched by the public and police on a regular basis.

Here he's causing a stir and somebody kicks his annoying dog at 0:59. Then he troons out and calls the police, at 2:07 they tell him to get the fuck out. At 3:00 policeman keeps calling him sir and Rafalala freaks out and corrects him few time yet he keeps calling her sir to annoy her.

Plenty of other videos of people telling her her balls are sticking out from under her dress and other hilarious shit.

 

[TV's Adam West]

I had my first encounter with a tranny today. I'm generally respectful to anyone, but this man had the work ethic of a fucking 13 year old.
Male to female, wearing a trans flag hoodie and headphones with cat ears.
I went there to trade in my old HEXbox because it isn't being used, they make awkward small talk about it and sigh
"You didn't factory reset it before you came?"
"I haven't even gotten an offer yet. "
"Fiiiine. "
They do their shit and I pick up a decent audio mixer and plan to use the money for the XBOX on it. I'm standing at the register and they're talking on the phone. I timed it, I stood there for 5 minutes before saying can I just get my shit back?
"Well actually you already signed the contract, we can only give you store credit. "

I want to know if any of you have had a similar experience? Do all troons have a shit work ethic.

 

[anti SJW]

If I identify as overweight, does that mean I'm transfat?

 

[feedtheoctopus]

If I identify as overweight, does that mean I'm transfat?

Identity as sexy, become transsexy, stop being ugly, totally score

 

[DavidS877]

Identity as sexy, become transsexy, stop being ugly, totally score

I'm working on identifying as a millionaire. The bank keeps telling me "Insufficient funds" though.

 

[TheFinalCountdown]

I don't give a single living fuck about these people, or "people" at all,. I just don't want them forced down my throat 24/7. What matters more is the destruction of Social Media in general, and the woke bullshit along with it.