Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

That being said, I feel like there’s been a shift in tabletop games from when it first started to now. Instead of a sandbox game with a bunch of interesting locales, there’s generally a single story (or a series of stories) where the main characters shape what happens next. Nothing inherently wrong with either, mind (though I’ll admit to having never played an OSR game before). I’m just curious as to how that change came about.
I noticed that too, and I think it in part correlates with the stigmatization of dungeoncrawling as something only beginners and grognards did, while "real roleplayers" did large-scale narratives.

Personally, I lean more towards dungeoncrawling fueled by the characters' own quests instead of some huge overarching plot. Maybe with a BBEG or their agents popping up every now and then. I just don't want to have to take/read a whole stack of notes just to keep track of what's going on, I already do enough data crunching at work.
 
I had a thought, and mind you, this could just be me thinking too hard about my autistic elfgames.

I’m gonna preface this by saying that there’s only one right way to play a tabletop rpg, and that’s, “Whatever works for you and your group.” I’m not out to diss anyone’s preference of game style.

That being said, I feel like there’s been a shift in tabletop games from when it first started to now. Instead of a sandbox game with a bunch of interesting locales, there’s generally a single story (or a series of stories) where the main characters shape what happens next. Nothing inherently wrong with either, mind (though I’ll admit to having never played an OSR game before). I’m just curious as to how that change came about.

In short, Player durability & societal changes as reflected through popular fiction & games. Game styles come in waves. Your perception is also a little warped, probably due to getting older.

In OD&D it was just expected you'd probably lose 2-3 characters in a crawl just due to bad rolls, and might party wipe in a completely unwinnable fight. It very often wasn't worth trying to get characters back (mechanics wise). 2e you had a good chance of a party wipe against the bad guy at the end, but better odds of making it past level 1. You might want to get your character back.
3.x made PCs much more durable, wizards very unlikely to get murked by a stray arrow.
This only got more more pronounced in 4e, and 5e has tons of resurrection options. PCs aren't supposed to stay dead, so you can build a narrative around them, feature their backstories, and get the player more involved.

This means the narrative has shifted to the PCs and away from the quest. The tale is not about how the dread necromaner Muerto was defeated, it is the adventures of Sir Fistsalot.

And what a majority of people want from their free time had changed, and changes more as they get older. They tend to want less hardcore brutal challenges and more "easy and fun" things.

The allowed narratives are shrinking. There is also a current frowning on 'exoticism'; "exploration is colonism and that is bad!" etc. The internet has made the world smaller.

Also your glasses are a little rose-colored. "Keep on the Borderlands" which I've heard called the most played D&D module in existance, tells the DM to straight up railroad the players and (via NPC) punish them if they attempt to solve the problem at the root of the conflict by not going on the adventure.

I noticed that too, and I think it in part correlates with the stigmatization of dungeoncrawling as something only beginners and grognards did, while "real roleplayers" did large-scale narratives.

Personally, I lean more towards dungeoncrawling fueled by the characters' own quests instead of some huge overarching plot. Maybe with a BBEG or their agents popping up every now and then. I just don't want to have to take/read a whole stack of notes just to keep track of what's going on, I already do enough data crunching at work.

There is a good bit of that too. People always talk about the wacky stories, not the dungeon grind, and everyone trying to emulate that.

I structure my naratives on Arabian Nights models: There should be a large over arching goal (war is loom!/Orcs are invading!/planets are aligning!) that drives the players forward. Along side that should be mid-sized quest (secure the region!/Find the lost children!/bring me pictures of spiderman!) and inside that, smaller goals (Kill that guy! bring me that thing!) that should be completed in a session or two.
Have your player quests be the small session goals that support the quests and over arcing plot.

Example, in my current game the party have all come to the big plan of "Disrupt Orcus's plans in the region". Some have had prophetic dreams, another has been charged by their Bishop, one had beef with their family being sacrificed to orcus, another is a cult member who was raised in the cult but escaped etc. So the main thing they are working at is "Figure out what Orcus is up to and stop him".
Currently they are in a mountain town, based on information they found in other other areas. There is an Orcus cult that preys on travelers and caravans on the trade route near by. The party is working stop the cult while trying to uncover the leader's identity (who they will find is working in concert with the drow, leading to the next area)
And at the moment they are trying to clear a demonic shrine of Gnolls, having discovered the the Gnolls and the cult's leader have been working together. They've had a bunch of other small quests like finding a lost vault, negotiating with restless spirits... but all of those small things have generally been working towards solving the identity of the cult leader (or just being fun/profitable). So when the party feels lost in their sandbox, they have a guiding light "Find the cult leader" to keep them from being completely aimless.
 
Last edited:
Thematically I like the idea of two hand casting for most casters, specifically full level arcane casters like wizards and sorcerers. Clerics, on the other hand, are hard to imagine without a shield, I would just be a stickler about them holding their holy symbol and not their mace. I would also want to make an exception for staves. Wizards can cast spells while holding a staff, mostly because unless you've put some stat points into strength you're not going to do much with it anyway and I'm a sucker for iconic imagery. The wizard with a 14 strength beating stuff with his staff is pretty cool anyway. If I was being a shit I'd let the wizard know a dagger is fine too, but he has to slice his hand open.

If I recall, at least in D&D 5e, Clerics (and Paladins) can have their holy symbols engraved into their shields.
Gotta say, I like this idea of full casters needing both hands or at least their focus in one and a free hand, let's you add exceptions or features like sorcerors being able to forgo somatic components or being able to do replace them with something else, spellswords channeling their magic through their weapons so again no need for somatics, etc. Don't see this working on D&D anyways since it already kinda does what I mentioned: You can use the hand holding your focus for somatic components, which makes sense, if you are holding a staff you are likely waving it around to draw sigils or runes in the air. I try not to think too much of the "hand economy" in 5e for the sake of my sanity.
 
@Ghostse Can't quote you for some reason
Your perception is also a little warped, probably due to getting older.
Also your glasses are a little rose-colored.
Without powerleveling too much, I'm a zoomer, maybe on the younger end of millennial. So I don't think that's it. Everything else seems reasonable though.
 
I had a thought, and mind you, this could just be me thinking too hard about my autistic elfgames.

I’m gonna preface this by saying that there’s only one right way to play a tabletop rpg, and that’s, “Whatever works for you and your group.” I’m not out to diss anyone’s preference of game style.

That being said, I feel like there’s been a shift in tabletop games from when it first started to now. Instead of a sandbox game with a bunch of interesting locales, there’s generally a single story (or a series of stories) where the main characters shape what happens next. Nothing inherently wrong with either, mind (though I’ll admit to having never played an OSR game before). I’m just curious as to how that change came about.
Might have something to do with so many games going online, even before wuflu. Sandboxes can work in-person better than online, where games can fall apart because of boredom, disinterest, or disagreement due to the game not having any real focus.
 
I had a thought, and mind you, this could just be me thinking too hard about my autistic elfgames.

I’m gonna preface this by saying that there’s only one right way to play a tabletop rpg, and that’s, “Whatever works for you and your group.” I’m not out to diss anyone’s preference of game style.

That being said, I feel like there’s been a shift in tabletop games from when it first started to now. Instead of a sandbox game with a bunch of interesting locales, there’s generally a single story (or a series of stories) where the main characters shape what happens next. Nothing inherently wrong with either, mind (though I’ll admit to having never played an OSR game before). I’m just curious as to how that change came about.

In my experience, especially with all the online games I've been involved with since The Plague, I would say a lot of this would have to do with who you are sitting down to game with. My group that I've had for more than a decade are just not sandbox people. They want to be involved in some huge, epic story that ties in all their backstories, so when I DM, I always try to give them that.

When it comes to gaming online, every sandbox game I've been in just fell apart due to indecision. Nobody wanted to take charge, or if they did other people started bitching to the DM about them behind their backs, or they just left. I'm in a Saturday Star Wars game where we finished one campaign, and have begun another. The first had an over arching Plot, but this one is more sandbox, with exploration and diplomacy and a lot of stuff lying around for us to poke. Frankly, it's been a disaster. We've got a Canadian, a tranny, a creep who only plays lesbians, and we also somehow wound up with an English Feminist. At one point near the beginning, we were trying to escape a space station full of very angry pirates, who were trying to cut through a blast door while we stole one of their smaller ships (a Skipray Blastboat before any nerds ask). My character runs into the ship and begins switching everything on.

Canuck: "What's the ship called?"

Me: "Who cares?! Get in!"

English Feminist: "I hope it's something nerdy."

Tranny: "I hope it's Lore related."

Everything is Lesbians: "If Trump was here, he'd expect us to name it after him!"

Me: "Why are you all talking about this? Can you please get in?"

Canuck: "It should have a woman's name. All ships are named after women!"

At this point, everyone else jumped down the Canuck's throat. The four of them had a raging argument about sexism in ship names in the docking bay, while the DM started warning them that pirates were getting closer, and closer to cutting the fucking blast door open. After ten minutes of this I had enough. My character (who due to shenanigans was the only one still armed) came out of the ship, and forced them all at gunpoint to get in. The argument then continued while we were flying away, and I had to threaten them that if they didn't shut up I'd be turning this Blastboat around and dumping them all back at the space station, as if I were their god damned father.

This is nearly every session. One of these four says or does something monumentally stupid, and everybody else has a fight with them. I did warn the DM about our group and sandboxes, but he told me he was sure we'd manage. I think he's regretting it now. If we weren't friends, I'd probably have left weeks ago.
 
In my experience, especially with all the online games I've been involved with since The Plague, I would say a lot of this would have to do with who you are sitting down to game with. My group that I've had for more than a decade are just not sandbox people. They want to be involved in some huge, epic story that ties in all their backstories, so when I DM, I always try to give them that.

When it comes to gaming online, every sandbox game I've been in just fell apart due to indecision. Nobody wanted to take charge, or if they did other people started bitching to the DM about them behind their backs, or they just left. I'm in a Saturday Star Wars game where we finished one campaign, and have begun another. The first had an over arching Plot, but this one is more sandbox, with exploration and diplomacy and a lot of stuff lying around for us to poke. Frankly, it's been a disaster. We've got a Canadian, a tranny, a creep who only plays lesbians, and we also somehow wound up with an English Feminist. At one point near the beginning, we were trying to escape a space station full of very angry pirates, who were trying to cut through a blast door while we stole one of their smaller ships (a Skipray Blastboat before any nerds ask). My character runs into the ship and begins switching everything on.

Canuck: "What's the ship called?"

Me: "Who cares?! Get in!"

English Feminist: "I hope it's something nerdy."

Tranny: "I hope it's Lore related."

Everything is Lesbians: "If Trump was here, he'd expect us to name it after him!"

Me: "Why are you all talking about this? Can you please get in?"

Canuck: "It should have a woman's name. All ships are named after women!"

At this point, everyone else jumped down the Canuck's throat. The four of them had a raging argument about sexism in ship names in the docking bay, while the DM started warning them that pirates were getting closer, and closer to cutting the fucking blast door open. After ten minutes of this I had enough. My character (who due to shenanigans was the only one still armed) came out of the ship, and forced them all at gunpoint to get in. The argument then continued while we were flying away, and I had to threaten them that if they didn't shut up I'd be turning this Blastboat around and dumping them all back at the space station, as if I were their god damned father.

This is nearly every session. One of these four says or does something monumentally stupid, and everybody else has a fight with them. I did warn the DM about our group and sandboxes, but he told me he was sure we'd manage. I think he's regretting it now. If we weren't friends, I'd probably have left weeks ago.
My god. This is a Binder of Shame story, but in the modern day instead of the 90’s
 
Me: "Who cares?! Get in!"
Should have just unilaterally called it the SS We're Getting the Fuck Out of Here, and see who had the balls to dispute or argue such an effective, concise name. Like, damn, what a messed-up player combination you were stuck with. Feel bad for you though, my snappy reply aside.
 
In my experience, especially with all the online games I've been involved with since The Plague, I would say a lot of this would have to do with who you are sitting down to game with. My group that I've had for more than a decade are just not sandbox people. They want to be involved in some huge, epic story that ties in all their backstories, so when I DM, I always try to give them that.

When it comes to gaming online, every sandbox game I've been in just fell apart due to indecision. Nobody wanted to take charge, or if they did other people started bitching to the DM about them behind their backs, or they just left. I'm in a Saturday Star Wars game where we finished one campaign, and have begun another. The first had an over arching Plot, but this one is more sandbox, with exploration and diplomacy and a lot of stuff lying around for us to poke. Frankly, it's been a disaster. We've got a Canadian, a tranny, a creep who only plays lesbians, and we also somehow wound up with an English Feminist. At one point near the beginning, we were trying to escape a space station full of very angry pirates, who were trying to cut through a blast door while we stole one of their smaller ships (a Skipray Blastboat before any nerds ask). My character runs into the ship and begins switching everything on.

Canuck: "What's the ship called?"

Me: "Who cares?! Get in!"

English Feminist: "I hope it's something nerdy."

Tranny: "I hope it's Lore related."

Everything is Lesbians: "If Trump was here, he'd expect us to name it after him!"

Me: "Why are you all talking about this? Can you please get in?"

Canuck: "It should have a woman's name. All ships are named after women!"

At this point, everyone else jumped down the Canuck's throat. The four of them had a raging argument about sexism in ship names in the docking bay, while the DM started warning them that pirates were getting closer, and closer to cutting the fucking blast door open. After ten minutes of this I had enough. My character (who due to shenanigans was the only one still armed) came out of the ship, and forced them all at gunpoint to get in. The argument then continued while we were flying away, and I had to threaten them that if they didn't shut up I'd be turning this Blastboat around and dumping them all back at the space station, as if I were their god damned father.

This is nearly every session. One of these four says or does something monumentally stupid, and everybody else has a fight with them. I did warn the DM about our group and sandboxes, but he told me he was sure we'd manage. I think he's regretting it now. If we weren't friends, I'd probably have left weeks ago.
Not sure why you didn't just say "Okay, I fly away and leave everyone else to argue about a guy who doesn't exist in this universe."
 
I noticed that too, and I think it in part correlates with the stigmatization of dungeoncrawling as something only beginners and grognards did, while "real roleplayers" did large-scale narratives.

What actually happened is that Dragonlance sold really, really well. This was 1984, so still AD&D 1e. A fairly railroady novel-with-dice is just plain easier to run, and players like a good story. Sandboxy adventures are tougher. You either end up prepping a lot of material that doesn't get used, or pulling stuff out of your ass on the fly that isn't quite as good as if you'd spent a week preparing it.
 
You either end up prepping a lot of material that doesn't get used, or pulling stuff out of your ass on the fly that isn't quite as good as if you'd spent a week preparing it.

You can use random tables and the what not, but then the results are that: random. The King was a changling this whole time? And because Changling Bullshit no way to know until this exact moment?
 
They are finally updating Spelljammer to 5e and as a boxed set no less, kinda cool but I waited for it so long that I don't care plus I was not impressed by some of the writing in tasha's cauldron to everything and heard strixhaven was mediocre at best.
 
They are finally updating Spelljammer to 5e and as a boxed set no less, kinda cool but I waited for it so long that I don't care plus I was not impressed by some of the writing in tasha's cauldron to everything and heard strixhaven was mediocre at best.
I want it to be good, but i ready to be bad. In other words: "It Feels Great"
 
  • Agree
Reactions: BlazikenLover
Ran a good session tonight, drew out a dungeon for the first time in a long time and put a little something for everyone in it. Killed a player, died to con poison combined with hit point damage from a big basilisk. When you think about it basilisks are kind of invisible because the party gets so fixated on the gaze attack they close their eyes and decide that being blind is the better option. Not so sure about that now. They had to use the scroll of raise dead they found as treasure. I'm glad I made that a piece of treasure, lets me get a little meaner and a little more ruthless with encounters. Scares em.
 
I, who was born in a time and age was blessed in knowing and playing with some of the Titans that started the genre. It was a time when anyone could game and you had to think on your feet or your character would die. Yes it was a time that you could game with the owners of a gaming company with no issues.

Now it is full of wokeness as bastions of the extreme left states that certain playing styles are raciest. Game mechanics are raciest. And everyone can be a social butterfly. Or a Mary Sue.
I missed those day when you could just have fun and forget the world for a moment.

1625917342255.jpg
 
Back