SCOTUS to Overturn Roe V Wade according to draft opinion obtained by Politico - And here we go

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The Supreme Court has voted to strike down the landmark Roe v. Wade decision, according to an initial draft majority opinion written by Justice Samuel Alito circulated inside the court and obtained by POLITICO.
The draft opinion is a full-throated, unflinching repudiation of the 1973 decision which guaranteed federal constitutional protections of abortion rights and a subsequent 1992 decision – Planned Parenthood v. Casey – that largely maintained the right. “Roe was egregiously wrong from the start,” Alito writes.
“We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled,” he writes in the document, labeled as the “Opinion of the Court.” “It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives.”


Deliberations on controversial cases have in the past been fluid. Justices can and sometimes do change their votes as draft opinions circulate and major decisions can be subject to multiple drafts and vote-trading, sometimes until just days before a decision is unveiled. The court’s holding will not be final until it is published, likely in the next two months.
The immediate impact of the ruling as drafted in February would be to end a half-century guarantee of federal constitutional protection of abortion rights and allow each state to decide whether to restrict or ban abortion. It’s unclear if there have been subsequent changes to the draft.
No draft decision in the modern history of the court has been disclosed publicly while a case was still pending. The unprecedented revelation is bound to intensify the debate over what was already the most controversial case on the docket this term.
The draft opinion offers an extraordinary window into the justices’ deliberations in one of the most consequential cases before the court in the last five decades. Some court-watchers predicted that the conservative majority would slice away at abortion rights without flatly overturning a 49-year-old precedent. The draft shows that the court is looking to reject Roe’s logic and legal protections.
Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences. And far from bringing about a national settlement of the abortion issue, Roe and Casey have enflamed debate and deepened division.”
Justice Samuel Alito in an initial draft majority opinion
A person familiar with the court’s deliberations said that four of the other Republican-appointed justices – Clarence Thomas, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett – had voted with Alito in the conference held among the justices after hearing oral arguments in December, and that line-up remains unchanged as of this week.


The three Democratic-appointed justices – Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan – are working on one or more dissents, according to the person. How Chief Justice John Roberts will ultimately vote, and whether he will join an already written opinion or draft his own, is unclear.
The document, labeled as a first draft of the majority opinion, includes a notation that it was circulated among the justices on Feb. 10. If the Alito draft is adopted, it would rule in favor of Mississippi in the closely watched case over that state’s attempt to ban most abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy.
A Supreme Court spokesperson declined to comment or make another representative of the court available to answer questions about the draft document.
POLITICO received a copy of the draft opinion from a person familiar with the court’s proceedings in the Mississippi case along with other details supporting the authenticity of the document. The draft opinion runs 98 pages, including a 31-page appendix of historical state abortion laws. The document is replete with citations to previous court decisions, books and other authorities, and includes 118 footnotes. The appearances and timing of this draft are consistent with court practice.
The disclosure of Alito’s draft majority opinion – a rare breach of Supreme Court secrecy and tradition around its deliberations – comes as all sides in the abortion debate are girding for the ruling. Speculation about the looming decision has been intense since the December oral arguments indicated a majority was inclined to support the Mississippi law.
Under longstanding court procedures, justices hold preliminary votes on cases shortly after argument and assign a member of the majority to write a draft of the court’s opinion. The draft is often amended in consultation with other justices, and in some cases the justices change their votes altogether, creating the possibility that the current alignment on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization could change.
The chief justice typically assigns majority opinions when he is in the majority. When he is not, that decision is typically made by the most senior justice in the majority.

‘Exceptionally weak’​

A George W. Bush appointee who joined the court in 2006, Alito argues that the 1973 abortion rights ruling was an ill-conceived and deeply flawed decision that invented a right mentioned nowhere in the Constitution and unwisely sought to wrench the contentious issue away from the political branches of government.
Alito’s draft ruling would overturn a decision by the New Orleans-based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals that found the Mississippi law ran afoul of Supreme Court precedent by seeking to effectively ban abortions before viability.

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Roe’s “survey of history ranged from the constitutionally irrelevant to the plainly incorrect,” Alito continues, adding that its reasoning was “exceptionally weak,” and that the original decision has had “damaging consequences.”
“The inescapable conclusion is that a right to abortion is not deeply rooted in the Nation’s history and traditions,” Alito writes.
Alito approvingly quotes a broad range of critics of the Roe decision. He also points to liberal icons such as the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe, who at certain points in their careers took issue with the reasoning in Roe or its impact on the political process.
Alito’s skewering of Roe and the endorsement of at least four other justices for that unsparing critique is also a measure of the court’s rightward turn in recent decades. Roe was decided 7-2 in 1973, with five Republican appointees joining two justices nominated by Democratic presidents.
The overturning of Roe would almost immediately lead to stricter limits on abortion access in large swaths of the South and Midwest, with about half of the states set to immediately impose broad abortion bans. Any state could still legally allow the procedure.
“The Constitution does not prohibit the citizens of each State from regulating or prohibiting abortion,” the draft concludes. “Roe and Casey arrogated that authority. We now overrule those decisions and return that authority to the people and their elected representatives.”
The draft contains the type of caustic rhetorical flourishes Alito is known for and that has caused Roberts, his fellow Bush appointee, some discomfort in the past.
At times, Alito’s draft opinion takes an almost mocking tone as it skewers the majority opinion in Roe, written by Justice Harry Blackmun, a Richard Nixon appointee who died in 1999.
Roe expressed the ‘feel[ing]’ that the Fourteenth Amendment was the provision that did the work, but its message seemed to be that the abortion right could be found somewhere in the Constitution and that specifying its exact location was not of paramount importance,” Alito writes.
Alito declares that one of the central tenets of Roe, the “viability” distinction between fetuses not capable of living outside the womb and those which can, “makes no sense.”
In several passages, he describes doctors and nurses who terminate pregnancies as “abortionists.”
When Roberts voted with liberal jurists in 2020 to block a Louisiana law imposing heavier regulations on abortion clinics, his solo concurrence used the more neutral term “abortion providers.” In contrast, Justice Clarence Thomas used the word “abortionist” 25 times in a solo dissent in the same case.


Alito’s use of the phrase “egregiously wrong” to describe Roe echoes language Mississippi Solicitor General Scott Stewart used in December in defending his state’s ban on abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy. The phrase was also contained in an opinion Kavanaugh wrote as part of a 2020 ruling that jury convictions in criminal cases must be unanimous.
In that opinion, Kavanaugh labeled two well-known Supreme Court decisions “egregiously wrong when decided”: the 1944 ruling upholding the detention of Japanese Americans during World War II, Korematsu v. United States, and the 1896 decision that blessed racial segregation under the rubric of “separate but equal,” Plessy v. Ferguson.
The high court has never formally overturned Korematsu, but did repudiate the decision in a 2018 ruling by Roberts that upheld then-President Donald Trump’s travel ban policy.

The legacy of Plessy v. Ferguson​

Plessy remained the law of the land for nearly six decades until the court overturned it with the Brown v. Board of Education school desegregation ruling in 1954.
Quoting Kavanaugh, Alito writes of Plessy: “It was ‘egregiously wrong,’ on the day it was decided.”
Alito’s draft opinion includes, in small type, a list of about two pages’ worth of decisions in which the justices overruled prior precedents – in many instances reaching results praised by liberals.
The implication that allowing states to outlaw abortion is on par with ending legal racial segregation has been hotly disputed. But the comparison underscores the conservative justices’ belief that Roe is so flawed that the justices should disregard their usual hesitations about overturning precedent and wholeheartedly renounce it.
Alito’s draft opinion ventures even further into this racially sensitive territory by observing in a footnote that some early proponents of abortion rights also had unsavory views in favor of eugenics.
“Some such supporters have been motivated by a desire to suppress the size of the African American population,” Alito writes. “It is beyond dispute that Roe has had that demographic effect. A highly disproportionate percentage of aborted fetuses are black.”
Alito writes that by raising the point he isn’t casting aspersions on anyone. “For our part, we do not question the motives of either those who have supported and those who have opposed laws restricting abortion,” he writes.
Alito also addresses concern about the impact the decision could have on public discourse. “We cannot allow our decisions to be affected by any extraneous influences such as concern about the public’s reaction to our work,” Alito writes. “We do not pretend to know how our political system or society will respond to today’s decision overruling Roe and Casey. And even if we could foresee what will happen, we would have no authority to let that knowledge influence our decision.”


In the main opinion in the 1992 Casey decision, Justices Sandra Day O’Connor, Anthony Kennedy and Davis Souter warned that the court would pay a “terrible price” for overruling Roe, despite criticism of the decision from some in the public and the legal community.
“While it has engendered disapproval, it has not been unworkable,” the three justices wrote then. “An entire generation has come of age free to assume Roe‘s concept of liberty in defining the capacity of women to act in society, and to make reproductive decisions; no erosion of principle going to liberty or personal autonomy has left Roe‘s central holding a doctrinal remnant.”
When Dobbs was argued in December, Roberts seemed out of sync with the other conservative justices, as he has been in a number of cases including one challenging the Affordable Care Act.
At the argument session last fall, Roberts seemed to be searching for a way to uphold Mississippi’s 15-week ban without completely abandoning the Roe framework.
“Viability, it seems to me, doesn’t have anything to do with choice. But, if it really is an issue about choice, why is 15 weeks not enough time?” Roberts asked during the arguments. “The thing that is at issue before us today is 15 weeks.”

Nods to conservative colleagues​

While Alito’s draft opinion doesn’t cater much to Roberts’ views, portions of it seem intended to address the specific interests of other justices. One passage argues that social attitudes toward out-of-wedlock pregnancies “have changed drastically” since the 1970s and that increased demand for adoption makes abortion less necessary.
Those points dovetail with issues that Barrett – a Trump appointee and the court’s newest member – raised at the December arguments. She suggested laws allowing people to surrender newborn babies on a no-questions-asked basis mean carrying a pregnancy to term doesn’t oblige one to engage in child rearing.
“Why don’t the safe haven laws take care of that problem?” asked Barrett, who adopted two of her seven children.
Much of Alito’s draft is devoted to arguing that widespread criminalization of abortion during the 19th and early 20th century belies the notion that a right to abortion is implied in the Constitution.
The conservative justice attached to his draft a 31-page appendix listing laws passed to criminalize abortion during that period. Alito claims “an unbroken tradition of prohibiting abortion on pain of criminal punishment…from the earliest days of the common law until 1973.”


“Until the latter part of the 20th century, there was no support in American law for a constitutional right to obtain an abortion. Zero. None. No state constitutional provision had recognized such a right,” Alito adds.
Alito’s draft argues that rights protected by the Constitution but not explicitly mentioned in it – so-called unenumerated rights – must be strongly rooted in U.S. history and tradition. That form of analysis seems at odds with several of the court’s recent decisions, including many of its rulings backing gay rights.
“We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled. The Constitution makes no reference to abortion, and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision....”
Justice Samuel Alito in an initial draft majority opinion
Liberal justices seem likely to take issue with Alito’s assertion in the draft opinion that overturning Roe would not jeopardize other rights the courts have grounded in privacy, such as the right to contraception, to engage in private consensual sexual activity and to marry someone of the same sex.
“We emphasize that our decision concerns the constitutional right to abortion and no other right,” Alito writes. “Nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion.”
Alito’s draft opinion rejects the idea that abortion bans reflect the subjugation of women in American society. “Women are not without electoral or political power,” he writes. “The percentage of women who register to vote and cast ballots is consistently higher than the percentage of men who do so.”
The Supreme Court remains one of Washington’s most secretive institutions, priding itself on protecting the confidentiality of its internal deliberations.
“At the Supreme Court, those who know don’t talk, and those who talk don’t know,” Ginsburg was fond of saying.
That tight-lipped reputation has eroded somewhat in recent decades due to a series of books by law clerks, law professors and investigative journalists. Some of these authors clearly had access to draft opinions such as the one obtained by POLITICO, but their books emerged well after the cases in question were resolved.
The justices held their final arguments of the current term on Wednesday. The court has set a series of sessions over the next two months to release rulings in its still-unresolved cases, including the Mississippi abortion case.
 
lol at the anarchist on Reddit
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We really another war to thin out their ranks
The suffragettes also arguably set back the universal suffrage movement by 20 years, while only demanding votes for women, at a time when most men still couldn't vote.

And he talks about other people being ignorant of history...
 
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What disturbs me most about John Oliver is captured in this promo still. He has his head in his hands in despair and he's just butane torched North America off a globe. Nowhere in North America is his. He's a Brit, not a Yank, and regardless of his American citizenship he's a guest in this country, and his outsider's opinions are totally unwelcome. He's a foreigner and his opinions should be disregarded as such.
 
The suffragettes also arguably set back the universal suffrage movement by 20 years, while only demanding votes for women, at a time when most men still couldn't vote.

And he talks about other people being ignorant of history...
I'm not one to talk highly of myself, especially when it involves history, but most modern people of all ages are ignorant of history. Mainly because they don't go looking for it, and go most of their life what they learn in the school system, which comes with little to no context, let alone additional information.

They'll tell you the suffragettes fought for women's right to vote. They won't tell you they actually had low support until they could assure women that they wouldn't risk being conscripted like the men.
 
View attachment 3269213
What disturbs me most about John Oliver is captured in this promo still. He has his head in his hands in despair and he's just butane torched North America off a globe. Nowhere in North America is his. He's a Brit, not a Yank, and regardless of his American citizenship he's a guest in this country, and his outsider's opinions are totally unwelcome. He's a foreigner and his opinions should be disregarded as such.
Maybe he should leave the US if hates the country that much
 
Anti-gun people say:

"people only had muskets you could defend your homestead or your state as part of a militia, but the general havoc your could bring an individual is limited. They never considered the idea of a concealable firearm, or magazines with multiple rounds, or even bullets. Therefore, it shouldn't apply."

As an outsider, this feels like a natural implication of originalism, although I don't support it myself. Personally, I agree with the, (seeming to me at least,) expansion of the arms the second amendment gives the right to bear over time.
No.
The meaning of the Second Amendment has not changed.

"Arms" still means "arms" - it denotes an open set, not a closed set of specific makes/models.
If the Founding Fathers had wanted to mandate a closed set of time-period-specific gun types that should be allowed, they could have, but they didn't. They chose a phrasing that includes future models.

And just in case anyone might doubt whether they were serious, they included the explanatory clause which tells us that yes, this includes the kinds of arms that would be needed to fight a foreign or domestic government in the future.

TL;DR: There's a big difference between expanding the meaning beyond what the written text actually denotes ("living constitution" doctrine / anti-originalism), and a law whose written text deliberately denotes an open-ended concept.

---

PS: The related Leftist cope/excuse, that the founders only wrote it this way because they "couldn't have imagined" how good guns would become, is also retarded. They lived at a time in history when there was rapid progress in firearm technology - guns got lighter, safer, more accurate, improved range, easier to reload, more shots between reloads, etc. Of course they expected all these factors to continue to improve. In fact, some of them were gun nuts who were personally at the forefront of these developments. They could easily imagine a modern-day semi-automatic rifle, and probably dreamed of owning one - they just didn't know yet how to build it.
 
View attachment 3269213
What disturbs me most about John Oliver is captured in this promo still. He has his head in his hands in despair and he's just butane torched North America off a globe. Nowhere in North America is his. He's a Brit, not a Yank, and regardless of his American citizenship he's a guest in this country, and his outsider's opinions are totally unwelcome. He's a foreigner and his opinions should be disregarded as such.
You're not fucking sending him back here.
 
No take backsies.
Our channels are already filled with unfunny soy-infused comedians, especially since Frankie Boyle sold out and started deepthroating the BBC.
He's a SNP voting teacher from Glasgow and has always been a massive edgelord faggot, but only towards easy targets like dead kids. I hate Frankie Boyle so fucking much.
 
I'm sick of seeing these Bible references.
I don't even get that as in depth as you did. I just see "fetuses" and know it's misquoting because there's no way Biblical text was using a term that had not been developed back then.
 
No.
The meaning of the Second Amendment has not changed.

"Arms" still means "arms" - it denotes an open set, not a closed set of specific makes/models.
If the Founding Fathers had wanted to mandate a closed set of time-period-specific gun types that should be allowed, they could have, but they didn't. They chose a phrasing that includes future models.

And just in case anyone might doubt whether they were serious, they included the explanatory clause which tells us that yes, this includes the kinds of arms that would be needed to fight a foreign or domestic government in the future.

TL;DR: There's a big difference between expanding the meaning beyond what the written text actually denotes ("living constitution" doctrine / anti-originalism), and a law whose written text deliberately denotes an open-ended concept.

---

PS: The related Leftist cope/excuse, that the founders only wrote it this way because they "couldn't have imagined" how good guns would become, is also retarded. They lived at a time in history when there was rapid progress in firearm technology - guns got lighter, safer, more accurate, improved range, easier to reload, more shots between reloads, etc. Of course they expected all these factors to continue to improve. In fact, some of them were gun nuts who were personally at the forefront of these developments. They could easily imagine a modern-day semi-automatic rifle, and probably dreamed of owning one - they just didn't know yet how to build it.
I understand what you posted in relation to the second amendment, it's why I chose to use it as an example because that's how the textual/originalist argument goes in that case. I intend the liberal anti-gun argument as an example of reasoning that does not have serious legal backing. They also lived in a time of social and moral change surrounding The Enlightenment.

To clarify what I'm trying to ask, why is it understood that "arms" is an open set but 'Ordered Liberty rooted in the tradition of the United States' is a closed set?

To be upfront about it, I personally believe both should have a similar open-ended interpretation and in this specific context, I would rather not see Roe overturned. However, I'm just curious about the legal scholarship here, not trying to show some kind of gotcha.

I'm not trying to call "Hypocrisy!" or anything if they are treated differently because I think that's just kinda dumb; people don't base their choices on some hard logic and use power to get what they want. I suspect the answer in reality is that there is no satisfactory, rigorous line between what is open and closed because SCOTUS is a political entity, no matter how much people like to pretend otherwise. It's just naïve to believe the judges don't have agendas, left or right. They try their best to base their influence in legal scholarship, but they're not computers running the constitution as code.

Still, I want to give them the benefit of the doubt that there is a rigorous definition of what falls into each group and ask what it is.
 
He's a Brit, not a Yank, and regardless of his American citizenship he's a guest in this country, and his outsider's opinions are totally unwelcome. He's a foreigner and his opinions should be disregarded as such.
You're not fucking sending him back here.
Revoke his citizenship so he is a stateless person. Throw him out of an airplane over the Somalia with a parachute some basic supplies.
 
I'm sick of seeing these Bible references.

Genesis: Breath of life is talking about Adam who was a literal pile of dirt at the time in a literalist reading.

Exodus: Literally laying out the punishments for striking a pregnant woman. My reading is if the fetus is uninjured, the husband gets to beat you and you pay a fine. If you cause a miscarriage, is says you should give "life for life" which to me means if the fetus dies, the man who struck them also dies. The actual opposite of what the tweet claims

Numbers: The verses detail a potion that's literally dirt and water that will kill an adulterous mother (also her fetus). It's an oath ritual like "if I did x, let me be struck down"

Deuteronomy: It's a curse on people that don't follow God, not really relevant and does not mention fetuses and abortion

2 Kings: The king is weeping because this is one amongst many things a prophet has told him an invading force will do to his people.

2 Kings 15: for once, actually yes. Against his enemies in a war. Metal.

Isiah: This is something that the Medes, a conquering empire, is prophesied to do.

Hosea: Another curse. I'd have to read more to figure out if this was on Israel (for fucking up yet again) or their enemies

Other Hosea: A prophesy that Samaria will fall in war
TL;DR there is only one that is about abortion and it involves the death of the mother and the fetus. It's also a trial by ordeal ritual. The rest are irrelevant, say the opposite of what is claimed, or the "abortions" are a thing used against enemies in war.
No need to analyze, this template is much faster:
No I'm Not A Christian.png
 
I'm not one to talk highly of myself, especially when it involves history, but most modern people of all ages are ignorant of history. Mainly because they don't go looking for it, and go most of their life what they learn in the school system, which comes with little to no context, let alone additional information.

They'll tell you the suffragettes fought for women's right to vote. They won't tell you they actually had low support until they could assure women that they wouldn't risk being conscripted like the men.
And let's look at how they fought for the right to vote...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign
TL;DR: Random acts of violence and hysteria, and sob stories to gain leniency afterwards. Some of the original crybullies. The suffragette cries out in pain as she mailbombs you.
 
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