The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

We know no such thing "mathematically." These are memes you read on image boards. You and other deniers have no expertise on cremation capacity, or the reasons why cremation takes as long as it does in the United States today at funeral homes (hint, speed is not the only consideration in the cremation of a client at the behest of their loved ones, the way it was for the Nazis).

As to cremation capacity at Auschwitz, we have a chain of German documents indicating a need for greater capacity at Auschwitz. I have attached one of these documents. Eventually, the cremation capacity reached 4,756 per day, according to documentation from Auschwitz (I have attached it).
Sorry but you can't break the laws of thermodynamics you fucking nigger. Good job posting your canned responses over and over again. None of that matters or answers what I just said. This is just another lame dodge by you.

Infact incomplete cremation creates even more problems for you, since you now have more corpse material waste to deal with. Which you haven't even started on.
 
Sorry but you can't break the laws of thermodynamics you fucking nigger. Good job posting your canned responses over and over again. None of that matters or answers what I just said. This is just another lame dodge by you.

Infact incomplete cremation creates even more problems for you, since you now have more corpse material waste to deal with. Which you haven't even started on.
So documents from German personnel stationed at Auschwitz in 1943 describing the specific cremation capacity of the camp (which is easily enough to account for the number of cremated victims mainstream historians talk about), "doesn't matter", "because science.." And of course "science" is really just some copypasta you found on 4chan or CODOH.

Are you actually this delusional?
 
So documents from German personnel stationed at Auschwitz in 1943 describing the specific cremation capacity of the camp (which is easily enough to account for the number of cremated victims mainstream historians talk about), "doesn't matter", "because science.." And of course "science" is really just some copypasta you found on 4chan or CODOH.

Are you actually this delusional?
Again, I dont give a shit what documents claim. We can easily look at contemporary photos and tell its bullshit. Do you know how much wood or coal it takes to cremate a single person? No because you are a stupid child. There are no huge stockpiles of either in any photos, these are necessary components of a crematory to work. How did they cremate millions of people without the associated millions of tons of combustibles? If they had the capacity to burn them in crematory then why did they need open air pyres? You can't deny these exist without being a revisionist, so now you are caught again.
 
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Do you know how much wood or coal it takes to cremate a single person? No because you are a stupid child
Are you actually stupid enough to think there is one specific number, that applies in all contexts, as to how much time and fuel it takes to cremate a bunch of corpses? Clearly this depends on the age of the cremated corpses, how heavy they were, and whether you cremate multiple corpses at once or (as funeral homes do, out of respect for the deceased) one at a time.
 
Are you actually stupid enough to think there is one specific number, that applies in all contexts, as to how long it takes to cremate a bunch of corpses? Clearly this depends on the age of the cremated corpse, how heavy he or she was, and whether you cremate multiple corpses at once or (as funeral homes do, out of respect for the deceased) one at a time.
Lmao. Just lmao. See guys jews are made of wood because they are witches. So you don't even need anything. You just set them on fire and off they go!


Also they were all just gassed to death so how is the age even relevant? Are you attempting to say they dry aged the corpses before cremation. Why that's very revisionist of you.


Also tell us you've never cooked your own meal before without actually saying the words: the post
 
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Lmao. Just lmao. See guys jews are made of wood because they are witches. So you don't even need anything. You just set them on fire and off they go!


Also they were all just gassed to death so how is the age even relevant? Are you attempting to say they dry aged the corpses before cremation. Why that's very revisionist of you.


Also tell us you've never cooked your own meal before without actually saying the words: the post
No, you unbelievable moron, I am saying that a starved child requires less fuel to cremate than a fat adult.
 
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No, you unbelievable moron, I am saying that a starved child requires less fuel to cremate than a fat adult.
So how much less fuel, I thought they were gassing and burning them in groups? Does a pile of kids take more or less time than a single adult? Why are all the crematory designed like ones used in a funeral home if they were going to be used in an industrial fashion. Are you saying they didn't know what a kiln or smelter is?
 
So how much less fuel, I thought they were gassing and burning them in groups? Does a pile of kids take more or less time than a single adult? Why are all the crematory designed like ones used in a funeral home if they were going to be used in an industrial fashion. Are you saying they didn't know what a kiln or smelter is?
Of course, half-wit, a pile of corpses that includes half starved children and half starved adults, burned all at once, would take less fuel and time to burn than 10 corpses of well fed deceased adults, burned individually.

The average weight of the corpses is relevant to how much fuel you need, and 5 year olds weigh less than 45 year olds. So if a bunch of murdered children, babies, and adults are being cremated (as in Auschwitz), it will take less fuel, all else equal, than cremating a bunch of dead old people, with only a few dead kids. I literally am in awe of how dumb you are.
 
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Do you actually believe I think 5 year olds weigh more than 45 year olds? Or do you think this was a typo?

An obvious typo is not the btfo you are looking for.

My entire point was that kids weigh less, and that Auschwitz (as an extermination center that killed persons of all ages, from babies to old people) would have proportionally more child corpses than a funeral home (withY mostly adult corpses who mostly died natural deaths) would. Therefore, all else equal, Auschwitz would require less fuel to burn its corpses than a funeral home would.

Another reason cremation would require less fuel in Auschwitz is that the cadavers were from half starved people, and obviously heavier people (like American adults in 2022) will require more fuel to cremate.

Yet another reason Auschwitz would require less fuel is the fact that in Auschwitz, unlike a funeral home (which burns corpses individually out of respect for the deceased), corpses were burned together rather than individually.
 
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My entire point was that kids weigh less, and that Auschwitz (as an extermination center that killed persons of all ages, from babies to old people) would have proportionally more child corpses than a funeral home (withY mostly adult corpses who mostly died natural deaths) would. Therefore, all else equal, Auschwitz would require less fuel to burn its corpses than a funeral home would.

Another reason cremation would require less fuel in Auschwitz is that the cadavers were from half starved people, and obviously heavier people (like American adults in 2022) will require more fuel to cremate.

Yet another reason Auschwitz would require less fuel is the fact that in Auschwitz, unlike a funeral home (which burns corpses individually out of respect for the deceased), corpses were burned together rather than individually.
Damn if only there was a way to figure out how to figure that out, like using science or something. If only that existed using known values so we could rationally deduce these things. Maybe we could use measurements to figure out an area and what could fit in it. Then, use specific heat values of different combustible material to figure out how much would be needed. If you had that, you could prove exactly what they could do with the equipment available. If only these things existed. In fact, so no one can make claims of bias, you could use independent calculations not involving the holocaust and use them as a rough idea for what would actually be involved. Damn if only someone wrote a meme about it. Then we could really know what happened at Auschwitz.

I guess it could be in a book but no one reads those but genius intellectuals.
 
So how much less fuel, I thought they were gassing and burning them in groups? Does a pile of kids take more or less time than a single adult? Why are all the crematory designed like ones used in a funeral home if they were going to be used in an industrial fashion. Are you saying they didn't know what a kiln or smelter is?
Lets see, lets assume that the average weight of all the hypothetical cremation people is 70 pounds to account for all the kids dragging down the numbers. We'll assume that while they might be starved, they aren't buried in natron for thirty days prior to cremation to fully dry them. The average human is about 60% water, so we have about 42 pounds of water per theoretical corpse. To cremate the body we need to at the very least bring that water from body temperature to total vaporization (after which the non-water parts may burn on their own or with negligible amounts of energy input). So lets do a little math:
Q=c⋅m⋅(100∘C−T)+Δhvap⋅m is our formula, where c is water's heat capacity, m is the mass of water, T is the starting temperate in C, and finally the specific enthalpy of vaporization of water (whats needed to kick the phase change from liquid to gas)
Remember, we need to not only bring the temperature up from body to boiling, then give enough energy to kick it over to steam, and for about 42 pounds of water that takes about 4901450 kilojoules.
So now we are at 4901450kj per body - how do we get energy to that?
Well we have options:
Energy in common materials available-
Coal​
1 pound​
9988kj
Gasoline​
1 gallon​
126858kj
Diesel​
1 gallon​
144945kj
Crude Oil​
1 gallon​
142960kj
Natl Gas​
1 cubic meter​
38000kj
So one body might take 490 pounds of coal, 39 gallons of gasoline, 34 gallons of diesel, 34 gallons of crude oil, or 129 cubic meters of natural gas.
Wikipedia claims that 1.1 million people were killed there, and if they were all cremated then that would have required over 27,000 tons of coal, over 120,000 barrels of fuel, and so on. These are insane amounts of fuel in a logistically starved Germany, and then of course you have to process and run the grinders and pulverize the remains, so the energy requirements are even higher.
This assumes perfect efficiency.
Which you're not going to get, even in the most modern designed and computer run crematorium.
Yet another reason Auschwitz would require less fuel is the fact that in Auschwitz, unlike a funeral home (which burns corpses individually out of respect for the deceased), corpses were burned together rather than individually.
Tell me you don't understand physics or even built a campfire without telling me, the post. Burning corpses together in piles is less efficient because each one works as an insulator to the corpses around it. Tightly packed materials take longer to dehydrate or burn because all the heat energy must pass through the insulating materials before it can transfer to the central materials. The increased surface area and air flow not only give the heat more access to get in, but the water to get out.

Why do you think a tray of meat will cook faster than a whole-ass bird in your oven at home, dipshit?
 
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Lets see, lets assume that the average weight of all the hypothetical cremation people is 70 pounds to account for all the kids dragging down the numbers. We'll assume that while they might be starved, they aren't buried in natron for thirty days prior to cremation to fully dry them. The average human is about 60% water, so we have about 42 pounds of water per theoretical corpse. To cremate the body we need to at the very least bring that water from body temperature to total vaporization (after which the non-water parts may burn on their own or with negligible amounts of energy input). So lets do a little math:
Q=c⋅m⋅(100∘C−T)+Δhvap⋅m is our formula, where c is water's heat capacity, m is the mass of water, T is the starting temperate in C, and finally the specific enthalpy of vaporization of water (whats needed to kick the phase change from liquid to gas)
Remember, we need to not only bring the temperature up from body to boiling, then give enough energy to kick it over to steam, and for about 42 pounds of water that takes about 4901450 kilojoules.
So now we are at 4901450kj per body - how do we get energy to that?
Well we have options:
Energy in common materials available-
Coal​
1 pound​
9988kj
Gasoline​
1 gallon​
126858kj
Diesel​
1 gallon​
144945kj
Crude Oil​
1 gallon​
142960kj
Natl Gas​
1 cubic meter​
38000kj
So one body might take 490 pounds of coal, 39 gallons of gasoline, 34 gallons of diesel, 34 gallons of crude oil, or 129 cubic meters of natural gas.
Wikipedia claims that 1.1 million people were killed there, and if they were all cremated then that would have required over 27,000 tons of coal, over 120,000 barrels of fuel, and so on. These are insane amounts of fuel in a logistically starved Germany, and then of course you have to process and run the grinders and pulverize the remains, so the energy requirements are even higher.
This assumes perfect efficiency.
Which you're not going to get, even in the most modern designed and computer run crematorium.

Tell me you don't understand physics or even built a campfire without telling me, the post. Burning corpses together in piles is less efficient because each one works as an insulator to the corpses around it. Tightly packed materials take longer to dehydrate or burn because all the heat energy must pass through the insulating materials before it can transfer to the central materials. The increased surface area and air flow not only give the heat more access to get in, but the water to get out.

Why do you think a tray of meat will cook faster than a whole-ass bird in your oven at home, dipshit?
You are honestly claiming it would take 490 pounds of coal to cremate a single starved cadaver at Auschwitz? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

You cannot have a fixed formula for how much fuel it takes to burn 70 pound corpses, because there are other variables, which you would know if you were a remotely serious person rather than a "I friggin love science" LARPer. For example, once the fires are fully started, less coke needs to be used going forward to burn bodies. Burning corpses simultaneously also affects the amount of fuel you need.

The claim I made is not that burning three corpses together takes less time than burning one, or somehow speeds up the process of burning a single corpse. (Congrats on defeating that straw man!) Rather, my claim was that burning corpses A, B, C at the same time takes less time and fuel than burning corpse A individually, corpse B individually, and then corpse C individually,

We have construction documents from the Germans at Auschwitz describing their cremation capacity as 4,756 bodies a day. I trust that over your Nazi napkin math. However, in terms of fuel, even David Irving admits that there are documents (incomplete) showing thousands of tons of coke (coal) was delivered to Auschwitz.
-----
To quote a good debunking of this meme

"The only authoritative information available on the fuel efficiency of the triple and eight muffle ovens was provided to the Bauleitung by Topf. On March 17, 1943 the Bauleitung issued a memo under the heading: "Estimation of coke usage for Crematorium II K L [concentration camp] according to data [Angaben] from Topf and Sons [maker of the ovens] from March 11, 1943." The memo goes on to describe the data in terms of fires. Crematoria II and III each needed ten fires for 350 kilograms of usage per hour. However, the number could be reduced by one third if they were used on a continuous basis, which meant that each crematorium would use 2800 kilograms of coke in a 12 hour period. In the eight muffle furnace the fuel savings were even greater. When those ovens were worked continuously they would burn 1120 kilograms of coke in a 12 hour period. This means that all four crematoria could operate on 7840 kilograms of coke in a 12 hour period (2800 each for Kremas II and III and 1120 each for Kremas IV and V). The Bauleitung concludes: "These are top achievements. It is not possible to give a number for usage for the year because it is not known how many hours or days it will be needed to heat it."


So here we have yet another variable our "scientist" failed to account for, namely that if you use a crema continuously for a 12 hour period (which is a radically different method than the cremas from his local funeral home), you need about 33% less coke.

Finally, it should be noted that open air pits were also used to cremate bodies at Auschwitz, not just coke.
 

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First, stop tripleposting, unless you're getting paid per post.
Secondly, you don't understand how physics, chemistry, or engineering works. I'll try to break it down in a simple way so that even a teenager like you can understand.
To transform a human body into cremains it requires energy, first to remove all the water by boiling and vaporization, then by incineration of the remaining material. You have to put that energy into the body with electricity or fuel of some kind, obviously, but the problem is that you can't do this perfectly and some heat is lost, this would be the efficiency of your process. No matter how efficient your furnace, you can't violate the laws of physics and use less fuel than the minimum.

So lets say you take, for example, the scientific constants that dictate the behavior of water and calculate the amount of energy needed to bring it first to boil, then to vaporize. Multiply that by the amount of water in a human cadaver and that gives you the absolute minimum energy needed to turn all the water into that cadaver into steam, which we will designate X. That energy is then gone, you have used it. Whatever energy is needed to incinerate the rest is highly variable, but it would be something, lets call it y. So at this point our energy requirements are X+y, at an absolute physical minimum.

Now we get into the design of our cremator, and lets say we have two models. Model A is 90% efficient, which means that 90% of whatever fuel we use goes towards the cremation. Model B is cheaper, and used, and only 70% efficient, so only 70% of the fuel gets effectively used. Obviously using Model A is smarter, because it uses what we give it more effectively, but it isn't able to break the laws of physics and use less than the absolute minimum we calculated above. Since Model A is 90% efficient, it would require about 111% worth of fuel to deliver the energy minimum, and the Model B about 143% of what we had calculated above.

Besides the design and engineering, administrative changes can effect efficiency, this is true. Modern single crematoriums cool and clean between cycles, a continuous running one would be less wasteful but it still would not be able to break the laws of physics and generate more energy than is fed into it - just waste it less. Like going from Model B to Model A in the above example, you can save fuel but you must spend at least the minimum energy.

This is all high school chemistry and thermodynamics, by the way.

I don't know for certain about the efficacy of the engineering or administrative methods you proposed, but I can sure as heck calculate the absolute minimum needed to cremate a freshly dead human body. The absolute minimum energy requirements for such an undertaking in the numbers proposed is absolutely crazy by modern standards, and that is before we start asking how energy efficient you could get with the technology and techniques of the time. Suggesting that Germany in the 1940's while fighting a war on two fronts had access to that much energy and chose to use it on cremation instead of winning the war is farcical.
 
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Suggesting that Germany in the 1940's while fighting a war on two fronts had access to that much energy and chose to use it on cremation instead of winning the war is farcical.
Well here I calculated (using numbers provided to me by a denier, 15 million gallons) that total energy cost of destroying these bodies would likely be equivalent to 1/200th of their yearly oil production. Bodies were destroyed over 3 years, so we're looking at 1/600th each year.

Meanwhile in the same post I also showed that keeping 3 million non-working Jews alive in Russia would cost many times this amount in energy on a yearly basis, which would of course compound as time went on whereas body destruction is a one time thing.

It's also true that certain German policy in the East shows that food policy was instrumental to them winning the war or they were willing to compromise here in order for them to preserve their food supply. Army group north was ordered to maintain the siege of Leningrad, rather than free itself up by accepting the cities surrender. They did this because they didn't want to have feed the cities inhabitants. So over 1 million people starved to death. Does it follow from this that they would keep millions of non-working Jews alive nearby?

Your position is beyond farce, it's truly pitiful, perhaps even tragic. I'm sorry you have to dehumanize yourself by believing so resolutely in something so stupid.

This is a pattern I have noticed - the intelligent deniers tend to at least partially abandon their denial, in spite of their biases, when they realize how terrible the evidentiary case for denial is. Usually the break comes over the problem of the millions of disappeared jews in nazi custody, and the pathetic lack of evidence for the denier "resettlement" thesis, as an attempt to explain where these Jews went.
I know Rapechu so I can confidently say he was no rocket scientist. This is too much to ask of most deniers anyway. Instead Rapechu was something every denier should aspire to being. Intellectually honest or "courageous" in @Lemmingwise's words. Or perhaps just industrious.

As soon as he started researching the subject of resettlement, everywhere he looked in German occupied USSR he found only evidence of mass killing taking place, a consistent pattern across thousands of different locales.

I suspect that if most deniers, especially the casual ones on this forum, spent a fraction of the time on this that they spend scrutinizing the "official story", they like Rapechu, won't be deniers for long, or at least won't in good conscience be able to keep flaunting their position.

I think it might be productive for you, as a trained historian, to try to inspire these deniers to overcome their fear or laziness and embark on a serious course of research, like me and Rapechu did. There were even a few touching moments where I feel we really connected over our research, and even "discovered" important arguments like the fact that evidence of Jewish resettlement in Romanian occupied USSR (Transnistria) is strong, while in German occupied USSR it is non existent.

Mere debate, while deeply enjoyable as bloodsport, hasn't been quite as satisfying for me.
 
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I am going to make a video on the cremation nonsense, inspired by JohnDoe's fake equation, in the coming weeks (afer my demographic videos).

For now suffice it to say taht you are a moron if you think it would take 490 pounds of coal to cremate a corpse if the crema in question is being regularly used, and had been running continuously all day. The built up heat would mean you need less fuel to burn new corpses.

The idea that 490 pounds of coal is the "absolute minimum" required to cremate a 70-pound corpse, regardless of the other factors I mentioned, is completely laughable, and the fact that you are getting plaudits for making this up, because you freakin love science, shows that deniers are indeed a lazy hive mind.
 
Well here I calculated (using numbers provided to me by a denier, 15 million gallons) that total energy cost of destroying these bodies would likely be equivalent to 1/200th of their yearly oil production. Bodies were destroyed over 3 years, so we're looking at 1/600th each year.

Meanwhile in the same post I also showed that keeping 3 million non-working Jews alive in Russia would cost many times this amount in energy on a yearly basis, which would of course compound as time went on whereas body destruction is a one time thing.

It's also true that certain German policy in the East shows that food policy was instrumental to them winning the war or they were willing to compromise here in order for them to preserve their food supply. Army group north was ordered to maintain the siege of Leningrad, rather than free itself up by accepting the cities surrender. They did this because they didn't want to have feed the cities inhabitants. So over 1 million people starved to death. Does it follow from this that they would keep millions of non-working Jews alive nearby?

Your position is beyond farce, it's truly pitiful, perhaps even tragic. I'm sorry you have to dehumanize yourself by believing so resolutely in something so stupid.
Deniers emphasize the fuel costs of exterminating Jews, but never mention the money Germany made from plundering everything the murdered Jews had on their persons and in many cases in their luggage, nor the economic benefits Germany accrued by exploiting able bodied Jews for labor, nor the money Germany saved by not having to feed, for example, murdered Polish Jews.
I think it might be productive for you, as a trained historian, to try to inspire these deniers to overcome their fear or laziness and embark on a serious course of research, like me and Rapechu did.
You are right and I should not allow myself to be provoked so easily into making personal attacks, as it makes this goals even more difficult to achieve.
 
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