The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Randall Fragg]

Funny how the “Holohoax is fake and gay and never happened” crowd always seems to overlap with the “Holohoax is fake and gay and never happened, but it should have” crowd.

 

[Stan]

If the united states had preserved their camps where they interned japanese people during the second world war, i

The Japanese internment camps in the US are preserved and memorialized. You can go see them if you want to.

Another camp without gas chambers, btw.

You should know Buchenwald was a KZ-lager and developed earlier in the war, prior to the Wannsee conference, prior to the Endloesung, and as such would not have had a gas chamber.

There were 6 death camps, all of which were in modern day Poland: Sobibor, Belzec, Treblinka, Chelmno, Auschwitz (which was a combined labor/liquidation camp) and Majdanek. They were constructed (or in the case of Auschwitz, expanded) after the Wannsee conference. Euphemistically, Jews were sent here for “resettlement to the East”, but those resettlements didn’t occur, and millions of Jews and Gypsies disappear after deportation to these camps.

Buchenwald was an older camp designed to corral undesirables into one place and work them to death, rather than systematically kill them on arrival. Jews in Buchenwald died from deliberate starvation and hard labor, combined with rampant disease. Female inmates were forced to serve in a camp brothel. Most of the others worked to produce armaments. There were still some systematic executions at Buchenwald: thousands of Soviet POWs were systematically killed by gunshot using a sham clinic and a ruse “medical exam”, sort of like the ruse that the gas chambers were “delousing showers”.

You should understand the purpose of these gas chambers. gas chambers were a nazi innovation in response to complaints by soldiers on the line that lining people up and shooting them individually was time-consuming, ammo-consuming, and negatively affected morale. German soldiers drank themselves senseless to continue executing Jewish civilians. (This theme recurs in the extermination camps; SS officers there also drank heavily.)

This is false. Despite the new resident holocaust affirmers (including our esteemed academic historian) agreeing that skin lampshades didn't happen, there is no chance of correcting the article. If you doubt me, look at the talk for the page or the history.

You are hung up on the skin lampshade in order to avoid more damning topics. American soldiers and Soviet soldiers took photos of the camps when they liberated them. These photos depict mountains of human hair, innumerable pieces of luggage, and warehouses full to the brim with stuff from camp inmates. Where did that stuff come from and where did its owners go? I feel the burden is on you to solve those problems if you want anyone to believe that the Holocaust didn’t happen or wasn’t as bad as reported.

I'm not in a position where I will offer explanation for historical documents, because I am neither historian, nor in a position to verify documents. My ability to verify veracity of such documents is limited.

If you don’t know what you are talking about why are you here? If you can’t tell either way what attracts you to opposing the Holocaust? Do you just enjoy uphill battles?

Absence of resetlement records is not proof of death.

If you wish to disprove the hypothesis that these missing people weren’t systematically killed on arrival in camps built like slaughterhouses, then the burden of proof is yours to deliver.

If the millions of Jews hoovered into camps weren’t killed, where did they go??

We already saw how wikipedia and encyclopedia brittanica repeat things you agree are lies.

That’s your opinion m8. There’s a reason WP locks these articles and makes changing them difficult; and it’s because of revisionists like you. If you want to go white knight for Nazis then you can go start a WP account and grind those talk pages. I won’t do this because I think the Nazis enjoy a rightfully awful reputation.

Why don't you care about these lies in central resources? Why do you seem blind and ignorant of this political constuency?

Because first, one lampshade made of human skin is an afterthought and a sidetrack to the real discussion, and secondly, I’m not really worried about the libelous effect this story has on Nazis given their numerous and much greater documented atrocities.

Edit to add: I also don’t give a fuck about any political constituency that wants to white knight for the SS.

 

[Lemmingwise]

lol are we actually bringing up the "Red Cross" stuff again that

You really need to work on your reading comprehension. I brought it up as something that I dismissed. That means I do not put much weight into its value. You really are a tubby dumb dumb. This is the second time you make that mistake in this thread. I'm sure you won't apologize for this mistake either.

That’s your opinion m8. There’s a reason WP locks these articles and makes changing them difficult; and it’s because of revisionists like you. If you want to go white knight for Nazis then you can go start a WP account and grind those talk pages. I won’t do this because I think the Nazis enjoy a rightfully awful reputation.

What have I said or done that makes it a good policy to leave false history in these articles? Point to something specific.

You are hung up on the skin lampshade in order to avoid more damning topics. American soldiers and Soviet soldiers took photos of the camps when they liberated them. These photos depict mountains of human hair, innumerable pieces of luggage, and warehouses full to the brim with stuff from camp inmates. Where did that stuff come from and where did its owners go? I feel the burden is on you to solve those problems if you want anyone to believe that the Holocaust didn’t happen or wasn’t as bad as reported.

No. It's because it is telling that some people have no problem with false history. You have a very false impression of my position, btw. For example, human hair isn't proof of death and neither is stolen luggage. I'm not saying that because I don't believe there were significant death numbers and I'm not saying it to whitewash any specific regime's responsibility or even intention in said deaths. I'm simply pointing to the fact that you personally have a low bar of evidence for believing that mass gas chamber murder / genocide took place. Because the things you point to, provide no support for that.

The Japanese internment camps in the US are preserved and memorialized. You can go see them if you want to.

I had no idea. Thanks. A bit far for me in the Netherlands, but still interesting to know. Doesn't change my argument though. They too could have preserved all the human hair that was removed in the period people were there. If the US government had been similarly economically predatory, they could also have kept their resources/bags.

If you don’t know what you are talking about why are you here? If you can’t tell either way what attracts you to opposing the Holocaust? Do you just enjoy uphill battles?

I may be a layman when it comes to human history, but I'm an expert on human behavior and deception. This is why I focus on the human aspect and people's motivation.

You think I oppose the holocaust, but that depends on how you define it. Can you define what you see as the holocaust? Then I can tell you whether I oppose it or not.

 

[Kyria the Great]

Which is truly the worst offense, to deny the Holocaust or to believe it was good and didn't go far enough?

 

[Stan]

Warm and fuzzy because you accomplished thread shitting for an entire year without earning a ban. All you did was reinforce the holohoax as written in the books is a lie for some of us, and no additional debating from you is going to change that opinion. So congrats, I hope the paycheck you got for a entire year was worth setting your bosses cause farther back (for context for those of you tuning in, he admitted to being a paid shill early last year).

If you think anyone is getting paid to argue with pol tards on Kiwi Farms then you are delusional. Go take your Risperdone and think about whether what you are saying makes sense.

What have I said or done that makes it a good policy to leave false history in these articles? Point to something specific.

It’s not about you honey, it’s about all the tards like you who would instantly deface or delete WP articles about the Holocaust given the chance. Admins don’t want to have to reverse all those edits so a janny has to babysit the talk page.

 

[Lemmingwise]

It’s not about you honey, it’s about all the tards like you who would instantly deface or delete WP articles about the Holocaust given the chance. Admins don’t want to have to reverse all those edits so a janny has to babysit the talk page.

Earlier you said:

it’s because of revisionists like you

So which is it? Is it because of me (or people like me) or not? Don't walk it back now. Feel free. Place it on my shoulders. Just tell me why you place it on my shoulders.

Also, I edited my post and you may not have seen that. You think I oppose the holocaust. Can you define the holocaust for me so that I can clarify whether I oppose your definition or not?

 

[Stan]

I'm simply pointing to the fact that you personally have a low bar of evidence for believing that mass gas chamber murder / genocide took place. Because the things you point to, provide no support for that.

The piles of discarded belongings were just supplementary evidence for me. The main reason I think this is true is because survivors describe a consistent process by which new arrivals were murdered, the remains of the camps where it took place, the Nazi’s own records documenting people entering the camp system and mysteriously disappearing after being sent to death camps, the allied photos of death camps in operation, allied photos of the camps when they were liberated, Hitler’s political fixation on extermination the Jews, orders for large quantities of Zyklon B, empty cans of Zyklon B at the camps, Nazi testimony about the gas chambers during the Nuremberg trials, Sonderkommando testimony of their time working at the gas chambers, need I say more? It is these facts, considered as a whole are very convincing. The Holocaust was real and you still have yet to explain what happened to the missing Jews if they weren’t liquidated as I believe they were.

Pictures: camps in operation.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Funny how the “Holohoax is fake and gay and never happened” crowd always seems to overlap with the “Holohoax is fake and gay and never happened, but it should have” crowd.

I mean, the group of "Water is a great thing to swim in" and the "Water is a great thing to swim in and piss in" also overlaps, but that there is some overlap isn't a surprise considering the question asked and doesn't tell you much about the first group of the two.

For example, just because I want international jewry as a political force to quit lying (much like other international political forces like chinese gov, american gov (who supported nazi-like groups across europe for decades after the war, and recently in ukraine), wef, trilateral commission etc), doesn't mean I want them dead. I stand for truth. I value truth.

It's true that I'm a little less concerned about neonazi's, and it's mostly because they're a completely laughably powerless group. I did get to know a couple in my life, but I didn't like them. I've had better relations with jews, personally.

 

[History Speaks]

I understand your concern about people "white knighting for the SS," but it is important to remember that neo nazis do not actually believe in nazi ideology. Probably the most famous neo-nazi in America today, Mike Enoch, is a Serb for god sake. That makes him a subhuman ("Untermensch") under Nazi racial ideology, and if any of his relatives were in Yugoslavia during the war, many were likely exterminated by Nazi puppet government Ustahe (Independent State of Croatia), with the approval and knowledge of the Nazis.

Neonazis say and believe ridiculous things. But much of what the actual Nazis believed in is too ridiculous even for them. Hitler for example literally believed in astrology, and also thought the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was an authentic plan of "the Jew" to take over the world. And do not get me started on Rosenberg's "Myth of the 20th century."

There were to be sure highly intelligent non-kooks in the Nazi regime, but these were technocrats (e,g, Speer, Schacht), or amoral political opportunists (e,g, Göring). To be sure, some kooks can be intelligent, though I am skeptical most of the ideological Nazis were. Goebbels was mediocre to the bone.

Neo nazism is not an attempt to uphold National Socailism. It is just an expression of race hatred, or contrarianism, or contempt for mainstream society, or an outright role-play (like pretending to be vegeta from DBZ, I did that a lot when I was young).

 

[Lemmingwise]

The main reason I think this is true is because survivors describe a consistent process by which new arrivals were murdered, the remains of the camps where it took place, the Nazi’s own records documenting people entering the camp system and mysteriously disappearing after being sent to death camps, the allied photos of death camps in operation, allied photos of the camps when they were liberated, Hitler’s political fixation on extermination the Jews, orders for large quantities of Zyklon B, empty cans of Zyklon B at the camps, Nazi testimony about the gas chambers during the Nuremberg trials, Sonderkommando testimony of their time working at the gas chambers, need I say more?

Main reasons stan believes the holocaust:

1. Survivor testimony
2. Nazi camp records
3. Allied photos of camps in operation
4. Allied photos of camps when they were liberated
5. Hitler's political fixation and intention on extermination of jews
6. Large orders of zyklon B
7. Empty cans of zyklon B
8. Nuremberg testimonies
9. Sonderkommando testimonies

Did I get that accurately or did I miss something? You're free to add more later.

Regardless of whether you agree, are you familiar with some of the counterarguments against these points?

 

[Stan]

Earlier you said:


So which is it? Is it because of me (or people like me) or not? Don't walk it back now. Feel free. Place it on my shoulders. Just tell me why you place it on my shoulders.

Also, I edited my post and you may not have seen that. You think I oppose the holocaust. Can you define the holocaust for me so that I can clarify whether I oppose your definition or not?

You’re a revisionist, I’m just being polite (and slightly sarcastic) giving you the benefit of the doubt that you would not instantly deface WP Holocaust articles if you had the chance.

You asked me to define the Holocaust. Here’s my definition:
The Holocaust (Gk. Holos + kaustos “wholly burnt”) was an act of genocide perpetrated by the Third Reich against Jews and other “subhumans” (their term, not mine) within its borders and occupied territories.

Beginning in May 1942, Jews were moved from their ghettos by train to one of six death camps in modern day Poland where ~90% were executed on arrival, primarily by gassing them to death. The remaining 10% were put to work in the camps for short periods of time before being executed as well.

The Holocaust ended in January 1945 when Russian advances on the Eastern front forced the Third Reich to destroy its extermination camps and move all remaining camp inmates west. This forced march from Poland to Germany resulted in more inmate casualties. Death marches moving prisoners west continued until April 1945.

 

[Stan]

Main reasons stan believes the holocaust:

1. Survivor testimony
2. Nazi camp records
3. Allied photos of camps in operation
4. Allied photos of camps when they were liberated
5. Hitler's political fixation and intention on extermination of jews
6. Large orders of zyklon B
7. Empty cans of zyklon B
8. Nuremberg testimonies
9. Sonderkommando testimonies

Did I get that accurately or did I miss something? You're free to add more later.

Regardless of whether you agree, are you familiar with some of the counterarguments against these points?

Correct, but I’d also like to add that I’ve visited Buchenwald and this further bolstered my belief that what you learned about the Holocaust in 11th grade social studies is essentially credible.

Edit: and yes, I’m familiar with some of the manipulations and misinformation Holocaust deniers and Holocaust revisionists like to trot out to refute this plainly true historical event.

 

[Lemmingwise]

You’re a revisionist, I’m just being polite (and slightly sarcastic) giving you the benefit of the doubt that you would not instantly deface WP Holocaust articles if you had the chance.

You asked me to define the Holocaust. Here’s my definition:
The Holocaust (Gk. Holos + kaustos “wholly burnt”) was an act of genocide perpetrated by the Third Reich against Jews and other “subhumans” (their term, not mine) within its borders and occupied territories.

Beginning in May 1942, Jews were moved from their ghettos by train to one of six death camps in modern day Poland where ~90% were executed on arrival, primarily by gassing them to death. The remaining 10% were put to work in the camps for short periods of time before being executed as well.

The Holocaust ended in January 1945 when Russian advances on the Eastern front forced the Third Reich to destroy its extermination camps and move all remaining camp inmates west. This forced march from Poland to Germany resulted in more inmate casualties. Death marches moving prisoners west continued until April 1945.

Yeah, by that definition I do not believe in the holocaust. Thank you for defining it so we know we're actually talking about things accurately. I don't think there was a significant amount of deaths by gassing.

I’m familiar with some of the manipulations and misinformation Holocaust deniers and Holocaust revisionists like to trot out to refute this plainly true historical event.

6 & 7. Is it a manipulation that zyklon B was used as a delousing agent and that delousing chambers existed?
Similarly, is it a manipulation that anne frank died of typhus in one of the hospitals at one of the camps?
Are you familiar with the fact that the typhus epidemic in the 1920's killed millions in russia during just 5 years?
8. Is it a manipulation that there's strong evidence that confessions were obtained under torture at the nuremberg trails?
3. How do allied photos of camps during operation prove any point besides the fact that there were camps, something that as far as I know stands undisputed?

I don't think these things are manipulations.

 

[History Speaks]

You’re a revisionist, I’m just being polite (and slightly sarcastic) giving you the benefit of the doubt that you would not instantly deface WP Holocaust articles if you had the chance.

You asked me to define the Holocaust. Here’s my definition:
The Holocaust (Gk. Holos + kaustos “wholly burnt”) was an act of genocide perpetrated by the Third Reich against Jews and other “subhumans” (their term, not mine) within its borders and occupied territories.

Beginning in May 1942, Jews were moved from their ghettos by train to one of six death camps in modern day Poland where ~90% were executed on arrival, primarily by gassing them to death. The remaining 10% were put to work in the camps for short periods of time before being executed as well.

The Holocaust ended in January 1945 when Russian advances on the Eastern front forced the Third Reich to destroy its extermination camps and move all remaining camp inmates west. This forced march from Poland to Germany resulted in more inmate casualties. Death marches moving prisoners west continued until April 1945.

If you wish to focus on the camps, you are entitled to do so of course. But the Holocaust as a whole generally also includes not only exterminations in camps but the mass shootings by the Einsatzgruppen of Jewish civilians on the Eastern Front, as well as extermination operations by the Romanians and Croats.

Now that I mention this, I do not think I have even asked the deniers here (by whom I do not mean you Stan, obviously) but do you guys also deny that the Einsatzgruppen systematically murdered Jewish civilians, and/or that the Romanians killed hundreds of thousands of Jewish civilians, and/or that the Croats killed tens of thousands of Jewish civilians?

 

[potato in mah painus]

If you think anyone is getting paid to argue with pol tards on Kiwi Farms then you are delusional. Go take your Risperdone and think about whether what you are saying makes sense.

>Constantly shitting in a thread for over a year straight.
>Openly admitting to being paid by the post
>Never posting outside of holocaust topics

lol

 

[Stan]

>Constantly shitting in a thread for over a year straight.
>Openly admitting to being paid by the post
>Never posting outside of holocaust topics

lol

Cui bono tho?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Cui bono tho?

There are two posters in this thread that exclusively post in this topic, that both signed up last year, within 3 months of each other. With both wanting to start podcast/youtube neetbux career. That both kept trying to get kiwifarmers to voice debate them. I think he's talking about them, not you.

One has made almost 150 posts since last monday. The other has made 500 posts since september. 99.9% of posts in this thread for both.

I don't think jokes about being paid per post are to be taken too seriously, tbh. Even if it might be true, a shill would unlikely be honest about this subject anyways, so any words in either direction are meaningless.

 

[JohnDoe]

I have posted a copy of an original document from the Nazis at Auschwitz showing that their cremation capacity was massive, i.e. 4,756 bodies a day (also reposted). This is easily enough to burn the corpses the mainstream history says they burned, even considering the time that they would have needed to deactivate the cremas for repairs, etc.

I've been thinking about this number a little more, and it's extremely sus to me. Assuming continual operation (I know you mention repairs but I'm looking at the minimums since I have no idea how that would impact operations) 24 hours a day that would require ~198 bodies per hour. The most space efficient method is just to cram all the bodies together, but since that would take longer and more fuel, you'd have to space them out in the chamber. A modern crematory chamber has about 4-4.10 cubic meters of volume, meaning if you use a single chamber for 'maximum fuel savings' you'd need in total about 808 cubic meters of chamber to do all 198 corpses in an hour.

The most space effecient method would be a sphere or cube, but for engineering reasons this is impractical. You have to load corpses and clear ash/bones from the chamber, so a longer more rectangular design is better for that. On the other hand, a large chamber with large doors might end up being less efficient because it takes more time to load/unload, all the while the doors are open. Plus any needed repairs would shut down the entire operation until completed, so probably not a single unit. What is the breaking point where increasing the number of corpses in the chamber becomes inefficient is hard to say, but we can look at upper and lower bounds to at least get a range of sizes for our cremation equipment.

A modern crematory unit has a total volume of about 20-20.5 cubic meters consisting of the mechanical and electronic control parts, insulators, flues and pipes, etc. (A 1940's era device would probably be larger since it requires bulkier insulators and control devices.) So therefore the ratio of chamber to total size is about 1:5, therefore a 'completely effecient' crematory unit with an 808 cubic meter chamber would be approximately 4,040 cubic meters in volume. That would be a perfect cube 15.93 meters to a side, or a sphere with 9.88 meter radius.

To put that in perspective, imagine three standard shipping containers placed end to end - that's the length of one side of our theoretical cremation cube. It's also three end to end shipping containers high, roughly. That's a lot of vertical footprint, and likely not something you'd see for a number of immediately obvious reasons.

So if you can't have a single unit, you'd need multiple smaller cremation units, but that means more overall volume. Firstly each chamber needs its own insulators, control units, etc. Then each unit will have to be spaced apart from the others to run pipes, perform maintenance, and naturally load and unload each unit. Just squashing your ideal cube requirements down to say 3 meters takes up over a quarter of a football field, and slicing that up into multiple units easily doubles or triples the footprint requirements.

In summation, to meet the claimed goals of cremating 4,756 bodies per day (what a weirdly precise number) I would expect an industrial processing footprint of at least half a football field for the crematory units alone, using modern, compact and efficient units. I can't begin to guess how much more space would be needed for contemporary units, plus the loading/unloading staging areas, secondary processing (grinding), etc.

Do we have any physical evidence of the industrial grade facilities need to meet these very conservative, very minimalist requirements? Or just some memo that, assuming it is real and not wildly misconstrued (perhaps to indicate how many bodies could be sterilized of typhus in a day) would at best be the equivalent of 'just trust me bro'?

This is obviously a rhetorical question, you have no intention of addressing the question in good faith and even if you did I don't believe you are capable of understanding how reality operates.

(the longer the cremas are running, the less fuel you need to burn bodies, because of built up heat).

As demonstrated here, where you fail to recognize the distinction between wasted fuel spent on heating and cooling cycles and the energy needed to convert a body to ash.

As was pointed out multiple times, better designed machines or processes can help save your overall fuel consumption, but they can't break the laws of physics and lower the minimum costs to cause a phase change. It will always take 2,257 joules per gram to convert water to steam, no matter how clever you build the kettle.

 

[GreenJacket]

Neonazis say and believe ridiculous things.

I don't like it when niggers murder little girls. I doubt it's a very absurd thing to say.

Also, if Neo-Nazais aren't real Nazis, then why do you waste your time talking about Hitler if his ideas have nothing to do with us?

 

[Eggplant]

Sorry I just had to barge in here to post something fucking hilarious.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP88-01314R000100360016-9.pdf