YABookgate

Congratulations! Would that be the one he has mentioned POSITIVELY by any chance ;)

And hello survivors who have had to learn how to use TOR just to get back here and talk about books and shit? After the Hugos in Chicago I was hoping for some drama, but it's basically the same old favorites winning the Big Silver Dildo.

Don't want to be too specific for powerlevel reasons, but it's a pulp and yes he mentioned it favorably.

Also, hello again! I couldn't log in through the tor site to save my life. I'd get as far as the two-step verification and then never receive the sign in code.
 
Having your book in hardback used to be the end goal, not the debut goal. I don't know when it changed, but for years it was like this. I find it interesting that they stopped publishers paying for placement. I wonder if it's because they wanted individual stores to have more freedom promoting what sells in a certain store or region.

Don't discount Walmart being a key player, either. They've made buying adjustments in certain categories in their book sections, and for people who live in rural areas, WM is the only place to buy books, with the exception of online and maybe a tiny indie bookstore fifty something miles away.

Still slack jawed at these twenty-something debut writers getting bent because they're not getting hardcover or prime spots without a proven track record. It's not personal, it's business.

My Walmart is super pozzed/fucked and keeps resetting/books going MIA like they've been pulled and replaced with woke shit. In particular, the Tim Kennedy bio has had several copies on the shelf then go 100% missing and replaced with woke shit or adult coloring books within a day of them arriving, as if corporate is just fucking with us reset shit-wise.

"Urban romance" sounds like a nicer way of saying "Ghetto Lit" so I'm going to guess it's all stuff like this:
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Speaking of that sort of thing; about a decade ago, my local Dollar General got in a bunch of hardcover books and several of them were of a line of black urban romance novels revolving around a group of incel Black Church Women who ran a social club that was called something along the lines of "God Please Send Me A Man! Club" and was about these black incel women trying to get husbands so they could get laid, due to their status of Christians meaning they had to get married before they have sex. Since then I've forgotten the name of the books or the series and was hoping someone here might remember what the series was called because of the absurd premise it had.
 
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Anyone else notice that most YA books have this generic corporate canvas look?
It's a plague everywhere.
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It's a plague everywhere.
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As sanitized and boring as modern book covers are, it actually wouldn't surprise me if there was some internal study done by publishers showing they did sell marginally better. There was a time when DC Comics kept putting gorillas on the covers of their books because of a study that said people woupd be more likely to impulse buy a comic if there was a gorilla involved.

My question is, who do corporate book covers actuay appeal too? My only guess is people who'd be too embarressed to read a book otherwise, but how large a market percentage do those people actually make up?
 
I've learned more about the publishing industry and the actual work of a writer by reading this thread than I ever did during my semester studying "Professional Writing and Publishing" at university. If the SS Kiwi does sink with all hands lost, I just wanted to say it's been a pleasure.
I agree, this thread has been wonderful for a hopeful such as myself and I'm always excited to see an update to it. I wish it was more popular though.

Just a question, is there a general book talk thread or is this it? I have some thoughts on the Firemane Saga and how it fizzled after a promising start
Same here, it’s pretty interesting how educational this thread has been.

It goes to show that no amount of corporate shilling will make a preachy book into a bestseller; no matter how diverse it is.

What made Harry Potter, Twilight and The Hunger Games into best sellers was that they all had interesting, fast paced stories that were easy for the average reader to get through.
This is basically it i think. Ive been using it as a general booktalk thread. Also its good to be back baby.
Yeah I would sooner attend a class taught by @Boston Brand and @Mola Ram than any university professor.

Good to see you mad lads all again, and if the Farms is stable and here to stay, maybe my finally biting the bullet on a formal thread is just the proper way to mark the occasion?

Boston Brand can tell you how to get published, I can teach you how to write unpublishable doorstoppers.

(Although, not to powerlevel, but I'm about to be *actually* published in a publication Brand has mentioned, so I got that going for me.)

WAY TO GO! DM me so I know what I'm supposed to have an eye out for!

Congratulations! Would that be the one he has mentioned POSITIVELY by any chance ;)

And hello survivors who have had to learn how to use TOR just to get back here and talk about books and shit? After the Hugos in Chicago I was hoping for some drama, but it's basically the same old favorites winning the Big Silver Dildo.

I was there, spent most of my time at the bar, met a few other authors and editors, we skipped out on the Hugos to go grab some Italian beef. I wish I'd been able to go to Dragoncon instead, that looked like a much livlier time.

Worldcon has become a small circlejerk, and this year's big vibe was I think a few of the more realistic people and old hands maybe now have seen what they've done - especially with Worldcon now headed to China next year. Have fun trying to make Worldcon a weekend long Pridefest/BLM rally in a country where both are death penalty offenses, Tor and friends!

@Boston Brand i heard there was some drama years ago between Antelope Hill, fuck those guys, and Toni Wiesskopf, would you have any idea what thats about?

First I've ever even heard of Antelope Hill, which might be an answer in and off itself. What happened between them and Wiesskopf?

I can ask a few of my contacts at Baen if you really want to know, but what drama should I be asking about?

Anyone else notice that most YA books have this generic corporate canvas look?
It's a plague everywhere.
View attachment 3697909
As sanitized and boring as modern book covers are, it actually wouldn't surprise me if there was some internal study done by publishers showing they did sell marginally better. There was a time when DC Comics kept putting gorillas on the covers of their books because of a study that said people woupd be more likely to impulse buy a comic if there was a gorilla involved.

My question is, who do corporate book covers actuay appeal too? My only guess is people who'd be too embarressed to read a book otherwise, but how large a market percentage do those people actually make up?

Aside from Baen, it's a plague that's infected all of genre fiction.

It doesn't boost sales at all, and in fact, it probably hurts them in most cases, but its a cost cutting measure - one of the most expensive parts of producing a book, believe it or not, is paying for the cover art. It looks cheap and generic because it is, and that's why so many publishers go for it these days, especially for newbie authors - Tor will spring for Michael Whelan for Brandon Sanderson, but diversity hire #419 will get whatever our design team whipped up in InDesign in 30 minutes and LIKE IT.
 
Basically Antelope Hill is an unironic for real far right publisher, they publish translations of 2nd and 3rd tier fascist, national socialist, traditionalist, and falangist thinkers, (by second and third tier i mean in popularity Mein Kampf is a first tier book but that doesnt mean its not shit, even with politics aside) among other things, they evidently insulted Toni Wiesskopf for some dumb fucking reason or another, this is from a half remembered tweet from like 2 or 3 years ago, so its not really important.
 
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It doesn't boost sales at all, and in fact, it probably hurts them in most cases, but its a cost cutting measure - one of the most expensive parts of producing a book, believe it or not, is paying for the cover art. It looks cheap and generic because it is, and that's why so many publishers go for it these days, especially for newbie authors - Tor will spring for Michael Whelan for Brandon Sanderson, but diversity hire #419 will get whatever our design team whipped up in InDesign in 30 minutes and LIKE IT.

That's disheartening. I suppose it's a good thing that I know how to draw, if I ever decided that traditional publishing was something I wanted for my book then I could just provide a cover myself. Not that my schizophrenic children's fantasy story would ever get picked up by a publisher in the first place, but still.
 
That's disheartening. I suppose it's a good thing that I know how to draw, if I ever decided that traditional publishing was something I wanted for my book then I could just provide a cover myself.
I have this unsinkable feeling that the publisher would still hire a cover artist behind your back, regardless, even though it would theoretically save them money by having the cover done by the writer themselves. Thought someone here or elsewhere mentioned that.
 
Cover art becoming generic is something that came from the 90s and focus test groups. The more wealthier/affluent buyers of books prefer ugly generic covers that have the writer's name front and center over any actual imagery that would imply what was in the books. And for book series lines where you have a new book every month (IE Sweet Valley High, Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys) it helps manipulate kids into potentially buying the same book twice since a lot of people don't take a close look at the title and make sure it's the newest book.
 
That's disheartening. I suppose it's a good thing that I know how to draw, if I ever decided that traditional publishing was something I wanted for my book then I could just provide a cover myself. Not that my schizophrenic children's fantasy story would ever get picked up by a publisher in the first place, but still.
Cover art? IIRC publishers reserve the right to change the book title if you're an author without clout.
 
Cover art becoming generic is something that came from the 90s and focus test groups. The more wealthier/affluent buyers of books prefer ugly generic covers that have the writer's name front and center over any actual imagery that would imply what was in the books. And for book series lines where you have a new book every month (IE Sweet Valley High, Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys) it helps manipulate kids into potentially buying the same book twice since a lot of people don't take a close look at the title and make sure it's the newest book.
God i hate the bougie twats who have no clue so god damn much.
 
Unless we have a general book thread, I read this yesterday and thought of you, my beloved meatbags. Apparently the rot goes even to the "adult" section, and now I'm curious if @Boston Brand can tell us how much The Art of Fielding actually sold.


As y’all recall from our discussion of The Road, I took some of the Landmarks of Modren Littra-chore with me on my recent TDY assignment. One of these was Chad Harbach’s The Art of Fielding. It was hilariously bad, but I did learn one thing: Why people still shell out the shekels to go to Harvard. Stick with me here:

Henry Skrimshander (really), of Westish College (really), is a magical shortstop who has never made an error. Really, and literally, such that he still plays with his Little League mitt (really), which he calls Zero (really). As in, zero errors, and I’ll stop right there, because a) that’s about as far as I got before hurling the stupid thing across the room, and b) the rest of the part I did read is all supposedly clever callbacks to much better works of actual literature. Specifically Melville, and even more specifically Moby-Dick.

I dunno if Skrimshander is supposed to be Captain Ahab or the Great White Whale, but as you can see from “Skrimshander” it’s both obvious and desperately forced (“like a throw off a barehand pickup on a great bunt down the third base line,” one should probably write in circumstances like this). The Westish College team is called the “Harpooneers,” despite being in Wisconsin, because Melville once gave a guest lecture there. The college president, who is desperately in love with Henry’s gay mulattto (really, and yes, this was written in 2011) teammate, is a Melville scholar. And since this is modern Littra-chore, they are of course desperately self-aware — the Melville-scholar college president actually remarks to Skrimshander that he, Skrimshander, is in for the seven hundred seventy-seventh lay, which proves, I guess, that author Chad Harbach got past page 25 when he was required to read Moby-Dick back in high school.

It’s that kind of book. I stopped with about 400 more pages to go, but all the allusions are like that — forced, way too cute, and often bizarrely wrong. Harbach’s bio says he played baseball in high school, but that doesn’t come through in his writing, which reads more like “dork who went to Harvard and got an MFA at University of Virginia spent five minutes googling the game.” For instance:

The Art of Fielding is both the title of Harbach’s book, and the title of a book within a book. It’s Henry’s favorite reading, of course, and it’s filled with zenlike pronouncements on the nature of life and Reality. The in-book version is supposedly written by the greatest shortstop ever, Aparicio Rodriguez. Get it? Luis Aparicio and Alex Rodriguez? Arguably the best-fielding and best-hitting shortstops in baseball history? Except… Rodriguez played third base. He came up as a shortstop, true, but when he signed that ludicrous deal with the Yankees — where he played the vast majority of his long career — they stuck him at third, so as not to injure the amoure-propre of Mr. March, Derek Jeter.

I guess even Harbach though “Aparicio Jeter” was too much, to say nothing of “Aparicio Wagner” or “Aparicio Ripken Jr.”

He describes Westish College’s location (from memory, but pretty close) as “nestled in the pocket of the baseball glove that is Wisconsin.” Ummm, that would be Michigan, dude — ask any Michigander where they’re from in the state, and they’ll immediately hold up their right hand to illustrate. You could argue for Wisconsin, I guess, but nobody who grew up in the Midwest, as Harbach did, would describe Wisconsin that way, especially when Michigan is right next door.

The main action of the book, such as it is, kicks off when Henry makes the first error of his entire life, an errant throw that misses the first baseman and hits the gay mulatto teammate in the face, knocking him out, as he, the gay mulatto teammate, is sitting in the dugout. Except… that’s not physically possible. Not really.

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That railing is there for a reason, and that reason is: So guys sitting in the dugout won’t get killed by hard foul balls ripping down the baselines. Also, if you’ve ever played the game — hell, if you’ve ever thrown a baseball — contemplate what it would take to huck one off a backhand stop from the hole with sufficient trajectory and velocity to bean a guy who’s sitting on the pine. Honus fucking Wagner didn’t have that kind of arm, and even if he did, he wouldn’t knock a guy out with a throw, because that guy would fucking move before he got hit.

(In the story, the gay mulatto is reading a book on the bench — with a little light clipped to his cap brim, no less — which is probably the least believable thing in The Art of Fielding if we’re being honest, and there’s obviously some strong competition for that title).

And that’s just the plot. The writing is, if anything, even more ludicrous. Like an aging slugger playing for one last contract, Harbach’s metaphors swing desperately for the fences, but usually end up on the warning track. He spends several sentences, for instance, describing how the college president sits in the stands, all to set up the conceit of the president’s tie dangling like an ice-fishing lure. Which isn’t a bad simile, as far as it goes, except a) it goes on way too long, b) it’s March in Wisconsin, and Harbach notes several times how cold it is, so homeboy would be wearing a jacket, and c) there’s no point to it, other than the image. No information is conveyed by it. There are no thematic callbacks, no insight into the president’s character. It’s just an image — a clever one, let’s give him that — placed there because he likes the way it sounds.

You can guess how the dialogue reads based on that, can you not? Harbach’s characters don’t converse, they pontificate, with the tiresome pomposity of gone-to-seed grad students. I was a pretty big dork in high school, and even worse in college, but not even I would’ve dropped an allusion to Marcus Aurelius in my dugout chatter, because my teammates would be contractually obligated to beat the shit out of me if I did…

Given all that, it’s a stone cold mystery how this novel got all the hype it did… unless you realize that homeboy went to Harvard. And that’s why you go to Harvard, gang. The Wiki entry on The Art of Fielding is amazing. Seriously, read ’em and weep:

A great deal of publicity focused on the story of the book’s publication, as Harbach worked on the novel, his debut, for ten years, subsequently receiving an advance of more than $650,000 after a bidding war for the publishing rights….
The book was well received, making The New York Times bestseller list and was named one of the ten best books of 2011 from the newspaper. Amazon.com named it one of Best Books for the Month of September 2011 and later named it the Best Book of that year. “The Art of Fielding belongs in the upper echelon of anybody’s league, in this case alongside Bernard Malamud’s The Natural, Scott Lasser’s Battle Creek and W.P. Kinsella’s Shoeless Joe”…
In August 2011, it was reported that HBO was in talks to develop the novel into a television drama. Scott Rudin was attached as executive producer, with Harbach to serve as a consulting producer.
In May 2017, it was reported that IMG and Mandalay Sports Media would be adapting the novel into a movie.
Six hundred fifty thousand simoleons. For the first novel of a guy whose only other publishing credits came in the exquisitely pretentious littra-chore journal he’s co-founder and editor-in-chief of. That he co-founded straight out of grad school.

And that’s just the money. The copy I checked out from the library blares “The National Bestseller!” on the cover, and inside that cover are five pages — I shit you not, five pages — of accolades. For a fluffy little nothing of a campus novel masquerading as a baseball book, Magic Realism division. Which The Natural and Shoeless Joe are, too, of course — like me, you’ve probably only seen the movies, but that’s enough (Shoeless Joe was filmed as Field of Dreams) — but that’s the weirdest thing: In the hundred or so pages I read, Harbach doesn’t holla back at those. Henry’s glove — Zero, I still can’t get over that — is pretty obviously the leather analogue to Roy Hobbs’s bat “Wonder Boy” in The Natural, and of course Henry himself might as well walk around barefoot, but none of that shows up.

Instead it’s all Herman Melville for whatever reason, and can a no-name like Harbach really think he’s written the Great American Novel? Right out of the gate? About a kid named Henry Skrimshander, for fuck’s sake?

I dunno. I strongly suspect he might. After all, it’s a national bestseller, fronted by five fucking pages of accolades, the really breathless kind that you imagine seeing on later editions of Dianetics or something. That’s one hell of a trick, really, and one wonders just how many somebodies Harbach has naked pictures of to pull it off. The man must be a networking god, and… there you have it. That’s why you go to Harvard, y’all.
 
Oh man, I actually remember that book when it came out @Flexo!

To answer your question, a fairly impressive 200k in trade paperback and 100k in hardcover, though damn near all of that was in the first year... with the size of the advance and the blurb sheet, the marketing budget must have been enormous.

It's averaged about a thousand copies sold each year over the past five, and the authors second book flopped hard comparatively, a little under 5k copies total sold.

From a quick look, guy's a well connected literature snob (runs a snooty lit journal, friends with Jon Franzen) who was a one hit wonder and knows it.

Never read the book, but guys like him and books like that are far too common in Manhattan publishing.
 
Cover art becoming generic is something that came from the 90s and focus test groups. The more wealthier/affluent buyers of books prefer ugly generic covers that have the writer's name front and center over any actual imagery that would imply what was in the books. And for book series lines where you have a new book every month (IE Sweet Valley High, Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys) it helps manipulate kids into potentially buying the same book twice since a lot of people don't take a close look at the title and make sure it's the newest book.
Does money make you blind to what is good or bad art or something?
 
As sanitized and boring as modern book covers are, it actually wouldn't surprise me if there was some internal study done by publishers showing they did sell marginally better. There was a time when DC Comics kept putting gorillas on the covers of their books because of a study that said people woupd be more likely to impulse buy a comic if there was a gorilla involved.

My question is, who do corporate book covers actuay appeal too? My only guess is people who'd be too embarressed to read a book otherwise, but how large a market percentage do those people actually make up?

What’s really going to bake your noodle is that sometimes they’re not going for readers with their shitty covers but buyers further up the distribution chain. I remember an anecdote that there used to be this one buyer lady for department stores who was more likely to approve books with “dresses” on the cover. All of a sudden every middling YA novel had a cover with a girl wearing a dress.
 
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