War Invasion of Ukraine News Megathread - Thread is only for articles and discussion of articles, general discussion thread is still in Happenings.

Status
Not open for further replies.
President Joe Biden on Tuesday said that the United States will impose sanctions “far beyond” the ones that the United States imposed in 2014 following the annexation of the Crimean peninsula.

“This is the beginning of a Russian invasion of Ukraine,” Biden said in a White House speech, signaling a shift in his administration’s position. “We will continue to escalate sanctions if Russia escalates,” he added.

Russian elites and their family members will also soon face sanctions, Biden said, adding that “Russia will pay an even steeper price” if Moscow decides to push forward into Ukraine. Two Russian banks and Russian sovereign debt will also be sanctioned, he said.

Also in his speech, Biden said he would send more U.S. troops to the Baltic states as a defensive measure to strengthen NATO’s position in the area.

Russia shares a border with Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

A day earlier, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered troops to go into the separatist Donetsk and Lugansk regions in eastern Ukraine after a lengthy speech in which he recognized the two regions’ independence.

Western powers decried the move and began to slap sanctions on certain Russian individuals, while Germany announced it would halt plans to go ahead with the Russia-to-Germany Nord Stream 2 pipeline.

At home, Biden is facing bipartisan pressure to take more extensive actions against Russia following Putin’s decision. However, a recent poll showed that a majority of Americans believe that sending troops to Ukraine is a “bad idea,” and a slim minority believes it’s a good one.

All 27 European Union countries unanimously agreed on an initial list of sanctions targeting Russian authorities, said French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, and EU foreign affairs head Josep Borell claimed the package “will hurt Russia … a lot.”

Earlier Tuesday, Borell asserted that Russian troops have already entered the Donbas region, which comprises Donetsk and Lugansk, which are under the control of pro-Russia groups since 2014.

And on Tuesday, the Russian Parliament approved a Putin-back plan to use military force outside of Russia’s borders as Putin further said that Russia confirmed it would recognize the expanded borders of Lugansk and Donetsk.

“We recognized the states,” the Russian president said. “That means we recognized all of their fundamental documents, including the constitution, where it is written that their [borders] are the territories at the time the two regions were part of Ukraine.”

Speaking to reporters on Tuesday, Putin said that Ukraine is “not interested in peaceful solutions” and that “every day, they are amassing troops in the Donbas.”

Meanwhile, Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky on Tuesday morning again downplayed the prospect of a Russian invasion and proclaimed: “There will be no war.”

“There will not be an all-out war against Ukraine, and there will not be a broad escalation from Russia. If there is, then we will put Ukraine on a war footing,” he said in a televised address.

The White House began to signal that they would shift their own position on whether it’s the start of an invasion.

“We think this is, yes, the beginning of an invasion, Russia’s latest invasion into Ukraine,” said Jon Finer, the White House deputy national security adviser in public remarks. “An invasion is an invasion and that is what is underway.”

For weeks, Western governments have been claiming Moscow would invade its neighbor after Russia gathered some 150,000 troops along the countries’ borders. They alleged that the Kremlin would attempt to come up with a pretext to attack, while some officials on Monday said Putin’s speech recognizing the two regions was just that.

But Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin told reporters Tuesday that Russia’s “latest invasion” of Ukraine is threatening stability in the region, but he asserted that Putin can “still avoid a full blown, tragic war of choice.”

Article
 
Another billionaire suggesting Ukraine shouldn't join NATO in another proposed peace agreement, this time less batshit than Musk's. He still recognizes Crimea as Russian though.
Assuming that the sudden deluge of well connected global business people spontaneously and publicly announcing their surprisingly similar "original peace plan dont steal" initiatives in the same time frame is not infact a big coinkydink or bandwagoning, it could indicate quite a few interesting things
  1. Russia reaaaaaaaaaaaaallly wants western governments negotiate with it in order to get a face saving way out this shitshow where it can keep pretending its still totally the mighty superpower equal of the US and NATO
  2. Western governments are not playing ball and refusing to entertain russia's need for geopolitical validation, thus causing russia to quietly reach out to various billionaires who have their own egos to satisfy in order to communicate their offers to these governments
  3. Russia is hoping that the release and publication of these peace plans by theoretically high profile western figures will cause a swell of public backing behind a swift compromise with russia in the west
I think if this theory is correct, then point 3 is the more interesting and amusing one as Russia has from the getgo been desperately trying to rally western populist support for its invasion, both from retards on the left by spamming hysteria about fighting da literal nazis in the name of diversity and soviet nostalgia and fighting the raysist bigotry against russians, and from retards on the right by publicly screeching about globohomo degeneracy n sheeit, only for this to fall flat in the face of both these groups being extreme fucking minorities outside the internet, and the fact they might still be depending on this shit would show how for all its grotesque cynicism, russia's establishment is still hilariously fucking naïve about its actual level of influence and popularity among western normies.

Furthermore, it would indicate russia is still operating under the same existentially retarded gameplan that the late USSR had, which was to bet everything on the western peace movement being magically able to force Reagan and Thatcher and the likes out of office in favor of pacifistic leftists who would swiftly dismantle the western militaries the USSR had bankrupted itself in failed attempts to compete with, which given putin's KGB desk jockey roots would make quite a bit of sense as the KGB were iirc the main pushers of this mindset.
 
They struggle to implement mobilization even with the current volume of conscripts, there's not enough people and places to train them all. And even then it would be at best the useless bog-standard shit that won't prepare them for what's to come.
Maybe they shouldn’t have sent their trainers to the front line.
It was supposed to be televised as you'd expect, but they cut it.
Not surprising. I feel bad for the Russian commoners to be honest. I don’t have so much sympathy for the warhawks.
 
Another billionaire suggesting Ukraine shouldn't join NATO in another proposed peace agreement, this time less batshit than Musk's. He still recognizes Crimea as Russian though.
And why is Russia so insistent that Ukraine not join an alliance that protects it from being invaded? These billionaires can't seem to make that one logical step.

This is an existential conflict from the view of Russia.
Meanwhile, it actually is existential for Ukraine. Russian hardliners say that Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians are not a real ethnicity, and they are attempting to destroy it. "Filtration" centers are routing children deep into Russia and telling them they're Russian now:
Russia could've minded its own business and no one would've attacked Moscow.

I'll grant that it may be existential for Putin, because a loss could topple his government. One can dream.

But rolling in tanks and annexing territory... uhhh... let's have a vote about that! We wouldn't want to escalate to sanctions, after all!
It's like the joke that sex might lead to dancing.
 
Assuming that the sudden deluge of well connected global business people spontaneously and publicly announcing their surprisingly similar "original peace plan dont steal" initiatives in the same time frame is not infact a big coinkydink or bandwagoning, it could indicate quite a few interesting things
  1. Russia reaaaaaaaaaaaaallly wants western governments negotiate with it in order to get a face saving way out this shitshow where it can keep pretending its still totally the mighty superpower equal of the US and NATO
  2. Western governments are not playing ball and refusing to entertain russia's need for geopolitical validation, thus causing russia to quietly reach out to various billionaires who have their own egos to satisfy in order to communicate their offers to these governments
  3. Russia is hoping that the release and publication of these peace plans by theoretically high profile western figures will cause a swell of public backing behind a swift compromise with russia in the west
I think if this theory is correct, then point 3 is the more interesting and amusing one as Russia has from the getgo been desperately trying to rally western populist support for its invasion, both from retards on the left by spamming hysteria about fighting da literal nazis in the name of diversity and soviet nostalgia and fighting the raysist bigotry against russians, and from retards on the right by publicly screeching about globohomo degeneracy n sheeit, only for this to fall flat in the face of both these groups being extreme fucking minorities outside the internet, and the fact they might still be depending on this shit would show how for all its grotesque cynicism, russia's establishment is still hilariously fucking naïve about its actual level of influence and popularity among western normies.

Furthermore, it would indicate russia is still operating under the same existentially retarded gameplan that the late USSR had, which was to bet everything on the western peace movement being magically able to force Reagan and Thatcher and the likes out of office in favor of pacifistic leftists who would swiftly dismantle the western militaries the USSR had bankrupted itself in failed attempts to compete with, which given putin's KGB desk jockey roots would make quite a bit of sense as the KGB were iirc the main pushers of this mindset.
I’d never heard of Bill Ackman before this. I’m assuming this is Russia Today just putting a spotlight on anyone voicing opinions they like rather than Russia actively working to flip people to their side. It may even work to comfort Putin to get stories like this as it makes it sound like public opinion is turning.
 
I’d never heard of Bill Ackman before this. I’m assuming this is Russia Today just putting a spotlight on anyone voicing opinions they like rather than Russia actively working to flip people to their side. It may even work to comfort Putin to get stories like this as it makes it sound like public opinion is turning.
Me neither, but then if russia is trying to use western businessmen they have some amicable connections to in order to publicise a "peace offer" in a way that doesnt make russia look weak for being the ones to lay out the concessions they will make (as they already look weak enough by repeatedly begging the US just to start negotiations with them) then they are probably using anyone who returns a call, even if they are an absolute nobody to western audiences

Also as mentioned before, the russian government has never really had its finger on the pulse of western public opinion so this may well legitimately be down to some clueless kremlin tard seeing he had a bunch of twitter followers and thinking this automatically makes him a famous and respected figure to the west
 
I understand your position, it is nothing new.

It always amazes me to see how easy midwits get their false dichotomy implanted by propaganda.

1.jpg


Rejecting one country's propaganda while consuming another's doesn't make you smart.

If we applied your disingenuous anti-war position to the Afghanistan war, then you shouldn't care anyway. Afghanistan and every other third world country should just surrender when America comes knocking because it's not like they stand a chance, and if they fight they are needlessly causing human suffering which makes them just as bad, no, worse than the invader and also inconveniences America by costing billions of dollars.

The genuine anti-war position is to demand that the aggressor stop. If the aggressor won't stop, you can try to diminish his ability to wage war. Even though America is responsible for some horrendous wars, there is no reason to not accept American support in this case. Even Iran accepted aid from Israel and America during the Iraq-Iran War.
 
So, I have a theory as to why people think Ukraine not joining NATO is a viable option: Finland and Sweden during the Cold War. Trouble is, as far as I know, Finland did that by basically allowing itself to be in the Soviet sphere of influence, not quite to the same extent Poland was, but far from being a NATO ally. That and geographically it wouldve been too useless for the soviets to bother annexing, and the forests and swamps of its eastern fringe wouldve made a forceful annexation difficult.

The same cannot be said for Ukraine.

1666193746059.jpeg

Zelensky and the boys hearing another billionaire suggest Ukraine shouldn't join NATO, 2022 (colourised)
 
View attachment 3749914

Rejecting one country's propaganda while consuming another's doesn't make you smart.

If we applied your disingenuous anti-war position to the Afghanistan war, then you shouldn't care anyway. Afghanistan and every other third world country should just surrender when America comes knocking because it's not like they stand a chance, and if they fight they are needlessly causing human suffering which makes them just as bad, no, worse than the invader and also inconveniences America by costing billions of dollars.

The genuine anti-war position is to demand that the aggressor stop. If the aggressor won't stop, you can try to diminish his ability to wage war. Even though America is responsible for some horrendous wars, there is no reason to not accept American support in this case. Even Iran accepted aid from Israel and America during the Iraq-Iran War.
pretty much this, most people agree that the shit the us did in iraq libya and syria were fucked up and caused problems like isis and the massive refugee crisis today, but this does not legitimize the russian destabilization and now invasion of ukraine... two wrongs don't make a right
 
two wrongs don't make a right
It's my default reply to this non-argument of theirs. You can condemn both, "but what about US" doesn't excuse Russia. The argument from the Russian side is essentially eye for an eye or some shit, which as everyone knows would make the whole world go blind. The cycle has to stop somewhere. Perpetuating evil is just that. Russia fucking with Ukraine didn't save lives, it led to many lives being lost instead, and many more changed forever for worse.

Ideally you'd just try to do better, instead of using someone else's misdeeds to justify yours. At least that's the moral standards I expect reasonable people to have. Trying to prove that one party is morally superior despite doing the same thing that makes the other one immoral is... well, straight up retarded. 2+2 is not, in fact, 5.
Almost as if it's a fallacy and not a good faith argument.
 
Its not a SAM, it is a point-defense system with a fairly low range. Mainly an anti-cruise missile system.
One component of NASAMS is AMRAAM-ER launchers. While not a theatre level air defense, 50 km engagement range is pretty long for short range air defense.

e: missed @Snekposter's reply wading through the bullshit. NASAMS also includes AIM-9 and IRIS-T launchers which are both short range missiles.
 
Last edited:
lockheed-builds-more-himars. Apparently they're expanding their factories and training more people, and Estonia and Poland want more Himars. If I'm not wrong so does the US army
Everyone wants HIMARS. Why? They work. Meanwhile the German PzH 2000 guns are almost more trouble than they're worth thanks to extremely low barrel life (100 rounds a day as emergency rate fire SMDH) and the German MLRS systems have trickled in thanks to them needing to be modified to work with literally anything else thanks to German autism. Rheinmetall and all their other manufacturers are on back order until the end of time because whoops, it turns out that's what non-investing in production gets you.

Meanwhile in the USA we're going to see a hiring spree because military production on this scale is probably the one thing you can't just offshore, both legally and in terms of public opinion, and unlike the Germans we've got no problems expanding capacity since hey, I guarantee you Congress will be delighted at the reduced per-unit costs of everything we start churning out thanks to economies of scale.
That doesn't look very successful...
 
You're trying to apply macro-scale geopolitics to an actual hot war. That doesn't really work.

I forget the exact quote, but it's something like "A sheep can only co-exist with a wolf from inside it's stomach".

In other words, one side here was the active aggressor and invaded a sovereign country and is attempting to annex either part of it or all of it, depending on who you believe.

There is no compromise position here. Either Russia is allowed to do it, or Russia is stopped from doing it, either by military or diplomatic means. And Putin has shown less than no sign of being amendable to diplomatic means. His only so-called overtures to a diplomatic solution start with the core demand of "I get everything I want and you get nothing you want."

And no, this is not like 9/11. This is not a case of a war based on mistaken or fraudulent information. Russia is invading a sovereign nation. That's not "propaganda". It's objective fact
The Iraq War false dossiers of WMDs is said to have inspired Russia to concoct the bio labs nonsense. Imagine the US carrying out weapons research near a de facto enemy like Russia when it can do research on what it likes in secure facilities in Virginia. Just keep asserting, make it a matter of national honor and 'find' some faked nonsense, and there's no end of idiots to defend it for free.
 
Last edited:
Why not? There's no telling if it hit its target or not when all we have are pictures of its motor and control section lying on the ground.
Its surprisingly intact for something that fell from a thousand feet up, nor does there appear to be any impact marks on the ground. Yeah, I know, its just aluminum without even any fuel inside, but I can't help but feel there's something off about it.
 
Its surprisingly intact for something that fell from a thousand feet up, nor does there appear to be any impact marks on the ground. Yeah, I know, its just aluminum without even any fuel inside, but I can't help but feel there's something off about it.
Well, the alleged proof is right there in the twitter thread:
Screenshot 2022-10-19 at 21-51-02 🇺🇦 Ukraine Weapons Tracker on Twitter.png
 
You seem to take "war bad" and then say "west is bad for continuing the bad war", "ukraine is bad for not accepting proposed diplomatic solution to end the bad war" and "west and ukraine should just agree to russian terms to end war"
I am very heavily critical of the forces goading Ukraine into this war and Zelensky, which you are focusing on. You are ignoring where I have pointed out that I hope Russia turns tail for the sake of the war ending before this turns into a nuclear conflict. It takes two to tango, and either side can begin thinking more peacefully than "fight (kill) until the fighting (slaughter) is done." Let's say Russia turns the tide somehow. Would you still feel this way? Maybe you would, but that would be pretty damn stupid if you did.

Also you are confusing me calling out Twitter retards on sperging out on Elon like he is a Russian collaborator for suggesting peace with being surprised Ukraine doesn't hop on Twitter and say "gee wow why didn't we think of that?" I know this might be hard to comprehend but just freaking maybe the guy who gave the region free internet for the greater part of eight months (and now onward) doesn't have their downfall at heart.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back