Warhammer 40k

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I really hate when people try to argue that the Imperium is the same as Chaos as part of "everyone are the bad guys in 40K". It's going from shilling the Imperium to the other extreme end of spectrum and completely ignores why Chaos is so horrible the only group who will barter with it are the Dark Eldar.

It pretty much still is. Both sides are evil. There's debauchery and excess in the Chaos side, while there's despair and dystopia in the Imperium side. It's just that the Chaos factions have more liberal attitudes towards worship and are honest about their lust for power, while the Imperium pretends to fight for a higher goal, when it's also full of backstabbing twats. Everything is shit, so you might as well try to climb the ladder to become a Lord of Terra or a Daemon Prince. If you fail, at least you'll be part of something greater, or so they say. Both sides are guilty of a long list of crimes. Sure, the Chaos forces do a lot of evil shit, but the Imperium forces their people to live through torturous conditions to prolong its own misbegotten existence.

And in the same vein, the Imperium only occasionally trades with the Eldar or Dark Eldar. No other species trades with the Imperium.

It really doesn't matter whether or not Horus or the Emperor won during the heresy, mankind loses either way, because both men are zealots for their cause, to the point where it blinds them. Even if Horus won the war, with the powers of Chaos possessing him, it won't be long for his new Imperium to slide into degeneracy and mayhem. And even if the Emperor won the Horus Heresy decisively and continued to rule along with his loyalist Primarchs, he'd still be the same atheistic, totalitarian asshole who'd send people to die for a worthless cause just to sate his ego, or to fulfill his idiotic plans.

Not to mention that the existence of Chaos proved the Emperor wrong. With Chaos being proven to be real, it goes against the Emperor's word that the supernatural doesn't exist, and many in the future will doubt the words coming out of his mouth, because he built up the Imperium on a platform of there not being any supernatural forces, but they proved to be a reality, which would prove the Emperor to be either an ignoramus or a liar. So what's to say another galaxy-wide heresy won't pop up and utterly fuck his regime into the dirt?

Why won't they make a 40k game that emulates the tabletop experience?

Because in the tabletop, a gretchen squad can kill a Terminator Marine squad if the latter roll the wrong number for their armor save. Not the kind of action the fanboys will like.........

 

[Zaryiu2]

I really hate when people try to argue that the Imperium is the same as Chaos as part of "everyone are the bad guys in 40K". It's going from shilling the Imperium to the other extreme end of spectrum and completely ignores why Chaos is so horrible the only group who will barter with it are the Dark Eldar.

Blame GW having a bunch of or being a bunch of Chaos Fanboys to the point not even The Emperor of Mankind was save in published material

Unrelated to the above but I read somewhere Tzeentch and Khorne in the past did cooperate, is that true? If so would would part of DOW I and all of II such a occasion and why Azariah Kyras was not instantly killed by Khorne? As for what Tzeentch gets out of it well he gets to see Thousand Sons who refuse to bend the knee before him destroyed

 

[I'mma real anime gurl]

Unrelated to the above but I read somewhere Tzeentch and Khorne in the past did cooperate, is that true? If so would would part of DOW I and all of II such a occasion and why Azariah Kyras was not instantly killed by Khorne? As for what Tzeentch gets out of it well he gets to see Thousand Sons who refuse to bend the knee before him destroyed

It's the same as Slaanesh and Khorne working together to try to damn the Blood Angels. They'll put aside their differences if it meant that they could fuck over either their own or fuck over anyone who challenges them.

 

[The tired cat]

Not to mention that the existence of Chaos proved the Emperor wrong. With Chaos being proven to be real, it goes against the Emperor's word that the supernatural doesn't exist, and many in the future will doubt the words coming out of his mouth, because he built up the Imperium on a platform of there not being any supernatural forces, but they proved to be a reality, which would prove the Emperor to be either an ignoramus or a liar. So what's to say another galaxy-wide heresy won't pop up and utterly fuck his regime into the dirt?

I mean, isn't the Emperor himself already a supernatural mofo who came into existence via a supernatural ritual?

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

It pretty much still is. Both sides are evil. There's debauchery and excess in the Chaos side, while there's despair and dystopia in the Imperium side. It's just that the Chaos factions have more liberal attitudes towards worship and are honest about their lust for power, while the Imperium pretends to fight for a higher goal, when it's also full of backstabbing twats. Everything is shit, so you might as well try to climb the ladder to become a Lord of Terra or a Daemon Prince. If you fail, at least you'll be part of something greater, or so they say. Both sides are guilty of a long list of crimes. Sure, the Chaos forces do a lot of evil shit, but the Imperium forces their people to live through torturous conditions to prolong its own misbegotten existence.

And in the same vein, the Imperium only occasionally trades with the Eldar or Dark Eldar. No other species trades with the Imperium.

It really doesn't matter whether or not Horus or the Emperor won during the heresy, mankind loses either way, because both men are zealots for their cause, to the point where it blinds them. Even if Horus won the war, with the powers of Chaos possessing him, it won't be long for his new Imperium to slide into degeneracy and mayhem. And even if the Emperor won the Horus Heresy decisively and continued to rule along with his loyalist Primarchs, he'd still be the same atheistic, totalitarian asshole who'd send people to die for a worthless cause just to sate his ego, or to fulfill his idiotic plans.

Not to mention that the existence of Chaos proved the Emperor wrong. With Chaos being proven to be real, it goes against the Emperor's word that the supernatural doesn't exist, and many in the future will doubt the words coming out of his mouth, because he built up the Imperium on a platform of there not being any supernatural forces, but they proved to be a reality, which would prove the Emperor to be either an ignoramus or a liar. So what's to say another galaxy-wide heresy won't pop up and utterly fuck his regime into the dirt?

One side will eat your soul though, while the other will put you into some gestalt being that might cause the end of the galaxy.

Joking aside, nearly the entirety of the terrible existence in the Imperium is either grim derp or hive worlds that were like this even before the Imperium came. How good life is usually more dependent on the current planetary governor than the Imperium itself, who only cares for tiths and that you are somewhat worshipping the Emperor (which is apperantly pretty lenient). The Imperium itself is pretty much the only way for humanity to survive, while Chaos or dissolution of the Imperium will nearly immediately cause humanity's extinction.

The Imperium itself is usually shown in lore that the middle ranks are somewhat competent and crewd by people who believe in what's their doing, while it's the top that's incredibly corrupt, and the bottom is only scraping by.

The Emperor's Imperium was a better place to live due to not having any of the rot, and having more accountability (ie, the Astartes getting punished for killing journos). How much the Chaos Gods can be considered divine is up to debate, but as lies go it's pretty understandable.

 

[5t3n0g0ph3r]

If you fail, at least you'll be part of something greater, or so they say.

Bruh. In both gameplay AND lore, you become a gibbering Chaos Spawn if you fail to gain the Dark Gods' favor in your attempt to become a Daemon Prince. Not exactly "something greater."

 

[Cpl. Long Dong Silver]

I really hate when people try to argue that the Imperium is the same as Chaos as part of "everyone are the bad guys in 40K". It's going from shilling the Imperium to the other extreme end of spectrum and completely ignores why Chaos is so horrible the only group who will barter with it are the Dark Eldar.

One one side you got dudes that flay you alive and the other you might get a quick execution for pissing off a commissar.

It's not even the same sport let alone ballpark. Anti Imperium fags usually are low t bugmen I find.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

I really hate when people try to argue that the Imperium is the same as Chaos as part of "everyone are the bad guys in 40K". It's going from shilling the Imperium to the other extreme end of spectrum and completely ignores why Chaos is so horrible the only group who will barter with it are the Dark Eldar.

They are both terrible. The Imperium is an oppressive yet uncaring nightmare. A machine that grounds everyone under its boot. Chaos is the ultimate survival of the fittest. Everything and everyone is willing to kill you for more power.

The Imperium is the better option for the average human and for the species as a whole. The people who think that all factions are equal in their evilness tend to be the ones that think that saying the Imperium is the lesser evil is an endorsement of them as something to be implemented in real life.

It would seem they have a problem distinguishing fantasy from reality.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

This video can explain most of what I will say:

Bruh. In both gameplay AND lore, you become a gibbering Chaos Spawn if you fail to gain the Dark Gods' favor in your attempt to become a Daemon Prince. Not exactly "something greater."

And in the Imperium, you either die in a factory, get killed in a battlefield, or get sacrificed for the Golden Throne.

I was being sarcastic with that whole part of being "something greater". Both sides fuck you in the ass in their own special way.

I mean, isn't the Emperor himself already a supernatural mofo who came into existence via a supernatural ritual?

He will deny anything that has to do with supernatural shit. That is what he did in life. So he might have you killed or thrown in a space gulag for saying that he was born from a supernatural way.

One side will eat your soul though, while the other will put you into some gestalt being that might cause the end of the galaxy.

Both of which are bad.

Joking aside, nearly the entirety of the terrible existence in the Imperium is either grim derp or hive worlds that were like this even before the Imperium came. How good life is usually more dependent on the current planetary governor than the Imperium itself, who only cares for tiths and that you are somewhat worshipping the Emperor (which is apperantly pretty lenient).

Most of the population of the Imperium probably comes from those hive worlds. Then there's feral worlds, where it's just a shithole meant to breed tough guys, manufactorum worlds, where it's similar to hive worlds but you're working in a factory for most of your life, fortress worlds like Cadia where you're trained to be cannon fodder and you'd probably get attacked by the enemy, among others. Sure, there are technically "good" worlds where life is the equivalent of a 20th-century household, but that's rare. Same with Pleasure Worlds, which are just the space version of the Bahamas in 40K meant to cater to the elite.

The Imperium itself is pretty much the only way for humanity to survive, while Chaos or dissolution of the Imperium will nearly immediately cause humanity's extinction.

False. Other human factions were doing fine before the Emperor forcibly united them all. Some even had treaties with alien powers that meant they were able to coexist with alien powers without having to kill them all. If you believe the Imperium to be necessary or even good for mankind, then you're missing the main point of 40K, as well as a good chunk of the story.

The Imperium itself is usually shown in lore that the middle ranks are somewhat competent and crewd by people who believe in what's their doing, while it's the top that's incredibly corrupt, and the bottom is only scraping by.

Yes-which means that those competent guys get killed because some nutball at the top made the wrong call. It's the honest and the competent getting killed by the decisions of the backstabbing, short-sighted buffoons at the top.

The Emperor's Imperium was a better place to live due to not having any of the rot, and having more accountability (ie, the Astartes getting punished for killing journos). How much the Chaos Gods can be considered divine is up to debate, but as lies go it's pretty understandable.

The Emperor was the one who started this mess, by wiping out the other human civilizations and then lying to his sons about the truth. If he A) just worked with the other human civilizations instead of wiping them out, and B) told his sons right off the bat about the threat of Chaos, not only would his Imperium be better off (ie. probably supporting religions that are against Chaos instead of banning it all) but he'd still be alive, and chances are, Horus and the other would-be Daemon Primarchs would still be his loyalists.

 

[Cpl. Long Dong Silver]

The Emperor was the one who started this mess, by wiping out the other human civilizations and then lying to his sons about the truth. If he A) just worked with the other human civilizations instead of wiping them out.

Some human civilizations couldn't be worked with. For further reading please see: Davin, Nurth, Sharosh, and original Cadia.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Both of which are bad.

It's a difference in magnitudes.

Most of the population of the Imperium probably comes from those hive worlds. Then there's feral worlds, where it's just a shithole meant to breed tough guys, manufactorum worlds, where it's similar to hive worlds but you're working in a factory for most of your life, fortress worlds like Cadia where you're trained to be cannon fodder and you'd probably get attacked by the enemy, among others. Sure, there are technically "good" worlds where life is the equivalent of a 20th-century household, but that's rare. Same with Pleasure Worlds, which are just the space version of the Bahamas in 40K meant to cater to the elite.

Like I said, dependent on the governor rather the Imperium as a whole, and the job. Those worlds were awful before waving the Imperium's flag. Also some Pleasure Worlds are said to be for people like the Imperial Guards who survived their tour.

False. Other human factions were doing fine before the Emperor forcibly united them all. Some even had treaties with alien powers that meant they were able to coexist with alien powers without having to kill them all. If you believe the Imperium to be necessary or even good for mankind, then you're missing the main point of 40K, as well as a good chunk of the story.

The time of the Great Crusade was after the Eldar empire collapsed and fucked the warp up massively, which created a huge power vacuum that the Emperor was the one to fill. There were Ork empires that could have beaten humanity to the punch and massacred the entire galaxy. Any small enclave of human would not have survived any big threat.

Yes-which means that those competent guys get killed because some nutball at the top made the wrong call. It's the honest and the competent getting killed by the decisions of the backstabbing, short-sighted buffoons at the top.

Which is constant across humanity's history.

The Emperor was the one who started this mess, by wiping out the other human civilizations and then lying to his sons about the truth. If he A) just worked with the other human civilizations instead of wiping them out, and B) told his sons right off the bat about the threat of Chaos, not only would his Imperium be better off (ie. probably supporting religions that are against Chaos instead of banning it all) but he'd still be alive, and chances are, Horus and the other would-be Daemon Primarchs would still be his loyalists.

Like I said, there was little option. But telling the primarchs about the warp always seemed to me like a terrible idea considering it's an easy way to get them to corrupt themselves.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Some human civilizations couldn't be worked with. For further reading please see: Davin, Nurth, Sharosh, and original Cadia.

What about civilizations like the Interex? They knew about Chaos. You'd think the Emperor would send them some flowers and a treaty of alliance like he did with Mars.

Blame GW having a bunch of or being a bunch of Chaos Fanboys to the point not even The Emperor of Mankind was save in published material

They hated the Emperor from the start. GW is rather adamant that the Imperium represents the worst mankind has to offer, and their fake messiah born of shamans merging is not much better.

It's a difference in magnitudes.

You get fucked either way. It's no different. One has you become a gibbering Chaos spawn, the other will treat you with the kind of cruelty that you'll wish you were a gibbering Chaos spawn instead.

Like I said, dependent on the governor rather the Imperium as a whole, and the job. Those worlds were awful before waving the Imperium's flag.

Not really. Some were doing just fine, others were worse, but not all were made better by the Imperium.

Also some Pleasure Worlds are said to be for people like the Imperial Guards who survived their tour.

And given the high casualty rate of the Guard, how much is that by percentage?

The time of the Great Crusade was after the Eldar empire collapsed and fucked the warp up massively, which created a huge power vacuum that the Emperor was the one to fill. There were Ork empires that could have beaten humanity to the punch and massacred the entire galaxy. Any small enclave of human would not have survived any big threat.

And instead of uniting these worlds through diplomacy and selective use of military force, the Emperor just forcibly annexed them all and threw all they knew about Chaos and aliens into the trash.

Which is constant across humanity's history.

False. Many times you had golden ages because the right man was the monarch or president of the right country, while most monarchs are basically bean-counters with crowns. Few nations like Byzantium had the kind of backstab-happy societies that would be embodied in 40K's Terra.

Like I said, there was little option. But telling the primarchs about the warp always seemed to me like a terrible idea considering it's an easy way to get them to corrupt themselves.

They got corrupted anyways. Teaching them about the warp and telling them about its dangers is a far wiser policy.

 

[Cpl. Long Dong Silver]

Like I said, there was little option. But telling the primarchs about the warp always seemed to me like a terrible idea considering it's an easy way to get them to corrupt themselves.

It might have saved maybe Horus, Alpharius, and Fulgrim but you'd still have:
Magnus: Warp entities that think they're smarter than me?! I'll show them - chaos ensues
Angron: A God that only cares for bloodshed and not morality? Sounds dope.
Lorgar: He'd have fucked it up trying to understand the gods to prove his dad is the true God.

 

[Cpl. Long Dong Silver]

What about civilizations like the Interex? They knew about Chaos. You'd think the Emperor would send them some flowers and a treaty of alliance like he did with Mars.

Remind me again where the Emperor decided to wipe out the Interex? Outside of your headcanon of course.

Also way to dodge my original point.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

And instead of uniting these worlds through diplomacy and selective use of military force, the Emperor just forcibly annexed them all and threw all they knew about Chaos and aliens into the trash.

Did you even read the HH novels? That's what happened whenever possible (and the legion was one lead by someone sane). As long as the world had non-mutant population (and even some mutations got accepted for being stable enough) they pursued political solutions until reaching an impasse, and then it was "we kill you now until you accept humanity", since anything else is a massive waste of time and resource. It's a huge plot point in book 2 when Horus flat out murders envoys and engages in a costly war because he needs to cover up looting from that world to appease the future Dark Mechanicus.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

It might have saved maybe Horus, Alpharius, and Fulgrim but you'd still have:
Magnus: Warp entities that think they're smarter than me?! I'll show them - chaos ensues
Angron: A God that only cares for bloodshed and not morality? Sounds dope.
Lorgar: He'd have fucked it up trying to understand the gods to prove his dad is the true God.

That's three Daemon Primarchs saved from the fire, which includes Horus, the Emperor's favorite.

Remind me again where the Emperor decided to wipe out the Interex? Outside of your headcanon of course.

Also way to dodge my original point.

He let Horus handle it instead of investigating it himself; you'd think he'd personally conduct diplomacy considering that these guys found a way to keep Chaos at bay.

Did you even read the HH novels? That's what happened whenever possible (and the legion was one lead by someone sane). As long as the world had non-mutant population (and even some mutations got accepted for being stable enough) they pursued political solutions until reaching an impasse, and then it was "we kill you now until you accept humanity", since anything else is a massive waste of time and resource. It's a huge plot point in book 2 when Horus flat out murders envoys and engages in a costly war because he needs to cover up looting from that world to appease the future Dark Mechanicus.

Letting the Legion leaders do the diplomacy was a mistake, obviously. They're not diplomats; the Primarchs were born to be killing machines. What kind of moron lets killing machines do the diplomacy?

 

[Cpl. Long Dong Silver]

That's three Daemon Primarchs saver from the fire, which includes Horus.


He let Horus handle it instead of investigating it himself; you'd think he'd personally conduct diplomacy considering that these guys found a way to keep Chaos at bay.


Letting the Legion leaders do the diplomacy was a mistake, obviously. They're not diplomats; the Primarchs were born to be killing machines. What kind of moron lets killing machines do the diplomacy?

Vulkan, Magnus, Guilliman and Sanguinius were not born to be killing machines. You could also include Dorn, Fulgrim and Corax.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Vulkan, Magnus, Guilliman and Sanguinius were not born to be killing machines. You could also include Dorn, Fulgrim and Corax.

Dude, they were made to lead Space Marines and are meant to lead them into battle. They were born to be weapons of war. And you don't send these guys to diplomacy missions unless you're sending them as a threat.

 

[The tired cat]

So ya guys here are busy fighting, I got a question. Would the Megatrakk Scrapjet be a good enough fo a 40k Tourney?

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Letting the Legion leaders do the diplomacy was a mistake, obviously. They're not diplomats; the Primarchs were born to be killing machines. What kind of moron lets killing machines do the diplomacy?

Good thing they brought tons of orators and bureaucrats with the crusade, another big plot point in HH.