Russian Invasion of Ukraine Megathread - Episode III - Revenge of the Ruski (now unlocked with new skins and gameplay modes!!!)

[Fatniggo1488]

The Arty that Sweden is sending to Ukraine.
Archer has not been used in Combat before so the Swedish armed forces will follow how Ukraine are going to deploy them and use them.

Seems more practical than the HIMARS take on shoot and scoot, but I still don't know how practical the general idea of it is. On a modern battlefield there are plenty of ways to figure out where indirect fire came from, and ultimately a massive truck is "scooting" but not very fast.

 

[Ghostse]

Lol okay but IFVs aren't and they're constantly used in cities. Pretty much any AT weaponry will easily take them out even if the shooter scores a hit that would not normally be lethal on a tank. Well obviously you're not going to transport troops in something like that inside a city so you're sacrificing those other things you mentioned for the sake of a feature no one is going to use in urban warfare anyway. You might as well just design a small tank which has at least enough protection to survive most hits by something like an AT4, has adequate speed and maneuverability, and is sufficiently small enough to pop in and out of back alleys and remain a small target. The small target part being the most important in urban warfare.

You aren't wrong, however an IFV can do more than fight in cities, its not purpose built. The real issue (especially during Iraq II) was commanders in west point read reports of urban fighting in Hue, and saw the M60s were immune to enemy fire and figured "hey its got treads and a turrent right? Its been 30 years, SURELY this can just as good" while ignoring the reality of improved weapons and that bradleys weren't ever intended to stand and fight - they were just to find the thing that needed killing and then go get a grown up.

The issue with developing a light tank vs using an IFV is the same problem with replacing the M113.

The M113 is already built. So when you put them in places you don't belong you say "We had M113s, we used them"; you didn't built the damn thing! Replacing the M113 requires you to say "this new thing is better than M113" and now every single flaw - even when its when they use your replacement incorrectly - is your fault. "Why didn't you get X system with better armor/bigger gun instead of this piece of shit?"

Welcome to the hell that is human nature

 

[Badungus Kabungus]

Seems more practical than the HIMARS take on shoot and scoot, but I still don't know how practical the general idea of it is. On a modern battlefield there are plenty of ways to figure out where indirect fire came from, and ultimately a massive truck is "scooting" but not very fast.

Also these have fairly limited range compared to rocket artillery.

• Weapon range (main gun): 30 km with standard shells, 40 km with base-bleed, in excess of 50 km with Excalibur

 

[CaptainAutism69]

The Arty that Sweden is sending to Ukraine.
Archer has not been used in Combat before so the Swedish armed forces will follow how Ukraine are going to deploy them and use them.

Free real world testing. Ukrain seems to be the worlds best arms show

 

[Fatniggo1488]

You aren't wrong, however an IFV can do more than fight in cities, its not purpose built. The real issue (especially during Iraq II) was commanders in west point read reports of urban fighting in Hue, and saw the M60s were immune to enemy fire and figured "hey its got treads and a turrent right? Its been 30 years, SURELY this can just as good" while ignoring the reality of improved weapons and that bradleys weren't ever intended to stand and fight - they were just to find the thing that needed killing and then go get a grown up.

The issue with developing a light tank vs using an IFV is the same problem with replacing the M113.

The M113 is already built. So when you put them in places you don't belong you say "We had M113s, we used them"; you didn't built the damn thing! Replacing the M113 requires you to say "this new thing is better than M113" and now every single flaw - even when its when they use your replacement incorrectly - is your fault. "Why didn't you get X system with better armor/bigger gun instead of this piece of shit?"

Welcome to the hell that is human nature

I get what you mean, but I'm not really talking about not having IFVs and having light tanks instead. There's not really a reason not to have both. MBTs have been getting used in cities a lot more lately because you're encountering more and more situations where people are fortifying civilian buildings in cities. IFVs normally don't have what it takes to handle these so MBTs end up getting brought in and are massively out of their element there. There's a video way back of a couple of Russian MBTs spending about an hour trying to take out a group of Ukrainians that had fortified a large apartment complex.

 

[Ghostse]

I know there's a lot of /k/ope and fiction floating around the Bradley, so let's get some real life accounts of what happens when it gets hit directly with an armor piercing RPG round. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2004-11-14-0411140314-story.html

Oh I remember this one. Stop huffing that vatnik copium.

What your interpid reporter leaves off is that the back gate was cracked for ventilation (they had an arab inside after all), and that's why Haji put the RPG in that spot. However, even with that being the case, the crew in the compartment survived. Injured, but alive. Contrast with the BMP turning into your and your squad's own personal crematorium from a burst from a .50 cal, let alone what an RPG would do the front armor let alone the back gate of the BMP.

Anyway, all that shit you're posting is from Iraq, and not even the good part where Iraq got rolled in 3 days. This is where sadly you couldn't just shoot every arab, so they could get close enough and negated the Bradley's range. Until the purge of Donetsk happens, there isn't any urban pacification that the Bradley will need to suffer through.
It will be in its element: a solid front, lots of infantry positions to autocannon, and a dwindling supply of T-72s to run away from.

If only M270 was here to erase grid squares full of filthy commies... sigh

 

[BULLY HUNTER_78]

Lotta folks in the thread treating Pentagon Wars like it was the bible.

Yeah, the guy the story is centered around may be pants-on-head retarded but Pentagon Wars definitely paints a pretty accurate picture of the development hell that is the Military Industrial Complex.

The F-35 and Osprey are two real-life examples. My experience in the industry also broadly mirrors the picture painted by Pentagon Wars to the point that it’s become a bit of a meme with my coworkers. I cannot think of a single program I’ve worked on that was on time, under budget, or didn’t struggle to meet all the requirements levied on it by the Gov’t.

Pentagon Wars is definitely right in its point that the US military should focus on specialization and cut requirement bloat. Here’s a real-life example from my own experience: a program was doing a tech refresh of a massive Shock Isolator test tower to make it more safe and modern. One of the updates was to include an intercom system so the guy loading the shock isolator can more easily talk to the operator in the booth. A no-brainer improvement to safety. A specialty engineering organization comes along and insists that this intercom is EMI/EMC tested because “what if they roll a live nuclear weapon through that warehouse?”

The first issue is a live nuclear weapon is never going anywhere near this random ass warehouse. The second issue is a tiny intercom isn’t going to produce enough interference to mess with your phone, let alone a hardened nuke. Since the specialty engineering organization didn’t back down on their requirement, the program simply excluded the intercom system from their tech refresh, so they wouldn’t need to waste a million dollars doing an unnecessary test. The system became quantifiably less safe because requirements bloat.

This story isn’t even an anomaly. FT3, a less known program run by Boeing, is millions of dollars over budget and years behind schedule because Boeing forgot to weigh their own legacy instrumentation wafer and designed a new wafer that was so heavy that the missile wasn’t able to complete its mission. I can list examples all day but you get the idea.

 

[Badungus Kabungus]

Oh I remember this one. Stop huffing that vatnik copium.

What your interpid reporter leaves off is that the back gate was cracked for ventilation (they had an arab inside after all), and that's why Haji put the RPG in that spot. However, even with that being the case, the crew in the compartment survived. Injured, but alive. Contrast with the BMP turning into your and your squad's own personal crematorium from a burst from a .50 cal, let alone what an RPG would do the front armor let alone the back gate of the BMP.

Anyway, all that shit you're posting is from Iraq, and not even the good part where Iraq got rolled in 3 days. This is where sadly you couldn't just shoot every arab, so they could get close enough and negated the Bradley's range. Until the purge of Donetsk happens, there isn't any urban pacification that the Bradley will need to suffer through.
It will be in its element: a solid front, lots of infantry positions to autocannon, and a dwindling supply of T-72s to run away from.

If only M270 was here to erase grid squares full of filthy commies... sigh

The article refers to at least two Bradley being hit by RPGs, not just a single lucky shot, so you're clearly just being dishonest again.

Within minutes a penetrating RPG exploded under the second Bradley's driver compartment, wounding a man from West Virginia who had survived RPG shrapnel to the neck when his Bradley was hit in Najaf.

No matter how much you try to /k/ope about muh grid squares and muh M270, it doesn't change the fact that the Bradley is not going to contribute anything to the Ukrainian war effort other than making a stylish and expensive coffin for some unlucky bastards. Oh and I guess it'll make some mobik or former convict rich once they nail it with an RPG and collect the bounty. That is assuming Ukrainian troops don't burn them all down and collect the bounties themselves, that is also an option.

 

[Ghostse]

The article refers to at least two Bradley being hit by RPGs, not just a single lucky shot, so you're clearly just being dishonest again.

No matter how much you try to /k/ope about muh grid squares and muh M270, it doesn't change the fact that the Bradley is not going to contribute anything to the Ukrainian war effort other than making a stylish and expensive coffin for some unlucky bastards. Oh and I guess it'll make some mobik or former convict rich once they nail it with an RPG and collect the bounty. That is assuming Ukrainian troops don't burn them all down and collect the bounties themselves, that is also an option.

The gate thing happened a lot in the early war until they started handing out article 15s for doing it because of exactly what that article has happening.

For the RPG bounty, Depends on what bradleys and the RPG warhead. The A3 - even without reactive armor - will not get breached by a 90s-vintage RPG round; I know they've made upgrades to the RPG rounds since the 90s, but I figure its better than even odds the new ones won't be what the Russian troops will have. If it does have the reactive armor, no hope. IF they are A2s, the vehicle will probably be disabled but the crew will survive. Its not a BMP, it doesn't turn into a tinder box the moment you touch it. US designs are build for survivability.

But again, before we consider that, you've got to get within RPG range, and the Bushmaster makes that a losing proposition when you don't have a city of civilians to hide among to get close. If you in a bradley, and your enemy is within RPG range, you have dun fucked up.

Again, that's the performance of the vehicle and how its supposed to be fielded - one has to consider what will end up happening. Never under estimate an officer's ability, let alone an officer who is also a Slav, to turn gold into shit chasing a commendation. I'm sure the Yook Brass will see Treads + Turret and tell them to go duel with the T-72s.

I get what you mean, but I'm not really talking about not having IFVs and having light tanks instead. There's not really a reason not to have both. MBTs have been getting used in cities a lot more lately because you're encountering more and more situations where people are fortifying civilian buildings in cities. IFVs normally don't have what it takes to handle these so MBTs end up getting brought in and are massively out of their element there. There's a video way back of a couple of Russian MBTs spending about an hour trying to take out a group of Ukrainians that had fortified a large apartment complex.

Really there are two problems you need to solve: urban pacification and urban combat. In pacification you want something like an MRAP with a remote turret - a steel shell with lots of visibility.

what you really want for urban operations is a Zippo tank. But again, sobbing, frothing Eurocucks mean you can't have those anymore.

 

[Honeybadger v2]

Apparently Fox News in that article gives the link to Medusa - pseudo oppositional media, based in Latvia. Free advice - don't trust it at all.

If only you posted a link to Voice of America, we would've had a glownigger propaganda full house. Now try again, with sources that aren't dripping with CIA cum.

 

[Useful_Mistake]

"Some NATO members – including Germany – seem to want an end to the fighting in Ukraine as soon as possible, even if the country had to make territorial concessions. Poland, on the other hand, wants to weaken Moscow in the long term – Russia has to lose „ hard “. "

https://archive.md/9ULl5

Well, that's interesting.

 

[Fatniggo1488]

The gate thing happened a lot in the early war until they started handing out article 15s for doing it because of exactly what that article has happening.

For the RPG bounty, Depends on what bradleys and the RPG warhead. The A3 - even without reactive armor - will not get breached by a 90s-vintage RPG round; I know they've made upgrades to the RPG rounds since the 90s, but I figure its better than even odds the new ones won't be what the Russian troops will have. If it does have the reactive armor, no hope. IF they are A2s, the vehicle will probably be disabled but the crew will survive. Its not a BMP, it doesn't turn into a tinder box the moment you touch it. US designs are build for survivability.

But again, before we consider that, you've got to get within RPG range, and the Bushmaster makes that a losing proposition when you don't have a city of civilians to hide among to get close. If you in a bradley, and your enemy is within RPG range, you have dun fucked up.

Again, that's the performance of the vehicle and how its supposed to be fielded - one has to consider what will end up happening. Never under estimate an officer's ability, let alone an officer who is also a Slav, to turn gold into shit chasing a commendation. I'm sure the Yook Brass will see Treads + Turret and tell them to go duel with the T-72s.



Really there are two problems you need to solve: urban pacification and urban combat. In pacification you want something like an MRAP with a remote turret - a steel shell with lots of visibility.

what you really want for urban operations is a Zippo tank. But again, sobbing, frothing Eurocucks mean you can't have those anymore.

>what you really want for urban operations is a Zippo tank. But again, sobbing, frothing Eurocucks mean you can't have those anymore.
There's a bunch of things like that which are so dumb. I was watching a documentary one time about this "bomb" the Airforce had in Vietnam. Basically, it just dropped a whole fuck ton of heavy ass steel darts over an area and just gravity doing its thing gave them their lethality. Apparently those got banned because they were "indiscriminate." Somehow though the daisy cutter was fine lol.

 

[Badungus Kabungus]

The gate thing happened a lot in the early war until they started handing out article 15s for doing it because of exactly what that article has happening.

For the RPG bounty, Depends on what bradleys and the RPG warhead. The A3 - even without reactive armor - will not get breached by a 90s-vintage RPG round; I know they've made upgrades to the RPG rounds since the 90s, but I figure its better than even odds the new ones won't be what the Russian troops will have. If it does have the reactive armor, no hope. IF they are A2s, the vehicle will probably be disabled but the crew will survive. Its not a BMP, it doesn't turn into a tinder box the moment you touch it. US designs are build for survivability.

But again, before we consider that, you've got to get within RPG range, and the Bushmaster makes that a losing proposition when you don't have a city of civilians to hide among to get close. If you in a bradley, and your enemy is within RPG range, you have dun fucked up.

Again, that's the performance of the vehicle and how its supposed to be fielded - one has to consider what will end up happening. Never under estimate an officer's ability, let alone an officer who is also a Slav, to turn gold into shit chasing a commendation. I'm sure the Yook Brass will see Treads + Turret and tell them to go duel with the T-72s.



Really there are two problems you need to solve: urban pacification and urban combat. In pacification you want something like an MRAP with a remote turret - a steel shell with lots of visibility.

what you really want for urban operations is a Zippo tank. But again, sobbing, frothing Eurocucks mean you can't have those anymore.

I'd argue that the turret is still as weak now as it was on the very first Bradley, but anyway, that's besides the point. Realistically it won't get anywhere within RPG range. Its biggest threats (other than the weather) will be remotely dispersed anti-tank mines (look up ISDM Zemledeliye), ATGMs, and loitering munitions like the Lancet.

 

[Foltest]

"Some NATO members – including Germany – seem to want an end to the fighting in Ukraine as soon as possible, even if the country had to make territorial concessions. Poland, on the other hand, wants to weaken Moscow in the long term – Russia has to lose „ hard “. "

https://archive.md/9ULl5

Well, that's interesting.

you can always count on the Germans to be morons.

 

[Beak Thing]

Can someone give me an update on what has happened with Ukraine these past two months? The last time I saw any news on the situation was when a Russian missile unintentionally blew up in Poland's borders.

Institute for the Study of War

Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin continues to use reports of Wagner Group success in Soledar to bolster the Wagner Group’s reputation as an effective fighting force. Wagner Group forces claimed to capture territory within Soledar over the past f

understandingwar.org

A good overview of the current situation. If you go into the archives you can take a look at things over the past couple of months but everything so far has led up to where things are now.

 

[CaptainAutism69]

"Some NATO members – including Germany – seem to want an end to the fighting in Ukraine as soon as possible, even if the country had to make territorial concessions. Poland, on the other hand, wants to weaken Moscow in the long term – Russia has to lose „ hard “. "

https://archive.md/9ULl5

Well, that's interesting.

I think a compromise would be a good way forward here...any NATO member that wants to keep fighting, is welcome to send *their* stuff and fight the fight, but don't get to piss and moan about the aftereffect.

 

[Kiwi Sneed Snake]

First post here we go...

Right so the M2 Bradley was meant to fight along side the M1 Abram's as a forward scout, it would find the targets and the Abrams would smoke them. Dismounted Infantry would protect the tanks and IFV's.
It was never meant to be used without MBT support or in urban fighting hence the poor record in Iraq.
So it probably won't fair well in Ukraine without decent/proper support.

It did however score more Iraqi armour kills with its TOW's than the Abrams in that conflict. So this can't be discounted.
Although it should be noted the TOW system has to be reloaded from outside the vehicle and extra rounds take up a lot of space inside.

Regarding the M242 bushmaster it's a great chaingun with superior effective range to the 2A42 30mm Autocannon.
But it has a major flaw, like all chainguns it relies on external power to fire which means no electrical power no bang bang. If the Bradley loses power it can't fight.
Where as the 2A42 uses gas blow back and requires no external power to operate.
The 2A42 also fire's much larger rounds not just in calibre but length also 30mm × 165mm vs 25mm × 137mm that's a lot of extra energy.

The Bradley also relies heavily on hydraulic systems and if these are poorly maintained/damaged it won't be happy
The rear door for example weights a shit ton and won't be fun to open/close with poorly working/no hydraulics.

If you type destroyed Bradley into google you'll see plenty of burning wrecks that the crew wouldn't have survived.
I'm not saying Russian IFV's are much better in survivability but they are easier to maintain and I think that'll be the main factor with the Bradley's in Ukraine maintenance and support.

Also I want to quickly point out the weight of these things with combat load are heavy and WILL struggle crossing small road bridges that the bmp/btr/bmd have no problem with. We're talking 30+ tons compared to 13+

Anyways that's my autistic input on the Bradley.

 

[CaptainAutism69]

The state funded Big Black Cock have changed the headline and subtitle of this several times today

Ukraine war: Conflicting claims over embattled town of Soledar

Russia's Wagner mercenaries claim to be in control - but Kyiv says its troops are still holding out.

www.bbc.com

Now they say that Soledar has probably fallen, and changed the Bakhmut cope to saying that this capture will allow Bakhmut to be surrounded.
Things ain't looking good for the Hohols there right now. I guess the next question is, what happens next? Do the Ukr have decent defensive lines to fall back to? It's all flat land now...

 

[Butterschmalz]

well if you're a man and you survive this war unscathed as a russian. you technically have the pick of the litter if a decent chunk of the fighting age males died.

Thats where they say Slavic beauty comes from. So many guys dying in wars, so only the prettiest girls are able to reproduce. Whatever. I m happy with Nipplebonfarts momma. What a work horse. Nobody can push the snowblower like this shiny pearl!

 

[SleeplessEcho]

[...] other than the 76mm BMP3s.

The gun on the BMP3 is only 76mm if you're exceptionally bad with a ruler.

If you're going to waste everybody's time with your room-temp IQ takes, at least make an effort to get basic facts right.

Then again, tastiest cope this side of Reddit indeed...