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Keith commented January 11
K
Keith
NYC
Jan. 11
Guess it's time for a new Fringe Festival since this one decided to be PC.
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AB commented January 11
AB
AB
Brooklyn
Jan. 11
As a fringe performer I have always had positive experiences with Erez. I’m glad he pulled the plug on this piece. The excerpts featured here don’t seem to be particularly artful or insightful. Sometimes ‘controversial’ art is just badly done. It’s really not worth putting his team members through the experience of promoting and elevating this kind of work.
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4 REPLIES
charlie corcoran commented January 10
C
charlie corcoran
Minnesota
Jan. 10
What we see depends on what we look for. Liberals more rigid that conservatives? A sad flip-flop.
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C commented January 11
C
C
Nyc
Jan. 11
To answer your first question which I think then answers all: the pieces worth elevating weren’t promoting bigoted hate. It’s that simple, my dude
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jrd commented January 11
J
jrd
ny
Jan. 11
@AB
"This kind of work"? How many of these formerly uncensored and "unjuried" pieces were worth "promoting and elevating"? (We won't ask the same question of Broadway.)
You really aren't worried by what you're wishing for? What if your orthodoxy on this issue offends someone else? You'll gladly accept the cancellation?
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Kathleen Warnock commented January 11
K
Kathleen Warnock
New York City
Jan. 11
I've presented work in The Frigid Festival, and found that it was one of the best run, most professional situations I've worked in.
I've also seen many shows in the festival and at their various venues over the years. The entire organization is one that presents a huge amount of wide-ranging work. They are one of the essentials of downtown and independent theater.
They also treat artists fairly and with respect, and work to give us the best possible venue for our work.
To all of the commentariat publicly bewailing this decision, and commenting on how you can't say ANYTHING these days, I'd like to ask how long you have supported independent theater? Which are your favorite venues? Who are some of your favorite performers?
For that matter, a man who calls himself a feminist and reserves the right to define who is a woman is not someone I'd consider a feminist.
Do you know how you get into fFigid? If you are one of the first submissions at midnight on the day that applications open, you are in. No questions asked. And for many years this has been a great process.
I think that Erez and the rest of his staff made the correct decision.
For those who are so upset that a voice they want to hear is being silenced, I recommend that you produce his show. That's what independent theater is all about.
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2 REPLIES
jrd commented January 10
J
jrd
ny
Jan. 10
@Kathleen Warnock
It's funny, because gatekeepers and curators typically lack any known abilities in the art forms they oversee. When challenged, they cite their current or past experience -- curating. It's true in theater, film, etc. We're experts not because we have demonstrable skills in the medium but because we're employed as such. Or we inherited the job from someone else.
"Erez and the rest of his staff" apparently can't even say that much, based on the description you offer of how one gains acceptance to this festival. What we have here are curators without experience of curation.
But you still have absolute faith in their judgment -- at least until your views and theirs diverge.
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Kathleen Warnock commented January 10
K
Kathleen Warnock
New York City
Jan. 10
@jrd "Funny"?
Well, I'm a playwright, with a show opening in NYC this weekend (presented by TOSOS at The Flea).
"Funny," I've had my plays professionally produced since the last century (including in the late NYC Fringe festival which was [gasp] curated and juried!), and have been involved in indie theater as a playwright, producer and (God forbid!) a curator of drama and literary works my whole working life.
"Funny," I'm also on the standing committee for Festivals and Contests for the Dramatists Guild, where a number of dedicated playwrights work to develop Best Practices for our Guild.
Frigid has always accepted the first 10 plays submitted, no questions asked (and I know people around the world waiting at their computers to hit "Send" the night applications open.)
"Funny," but independent theater is my passion and my avocation. I'm proud to have worked in it for many years, and to work in the community so that others can present their work.
"Funny," I've also edited literary anthologies and magazines, and "curated" the selection of 10 or 15 pieces from 200 or so submissions.
"Funny," I wonder whether you actually attend indie theater at all.
"Funny."
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
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TMS commented January 11
T
TMS
here
Jan. 11
The capturing of the arts --all of them-- by narrow minded scolds who command what is acceptable for funding, production, and awards has been one of the most hard to take products of the current Cultural Revolution. It is nothing less than Soviet Socialist Realism, v.2.
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Helen Elaine commented January 11
H
Helen Elaine
Kansas City
Jan. 11
This whole discussion about gender is so confusing. When I first read about transgender issues, the advocates insisted that "sex" and " gender"
are separate. Has that now changed?
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uffish commented January 11
U
uffish
North Carolina
Jan. 11
Look at all these comments with the predictable "they're stifling discussion," etc. responses. There is nothing here up for discussion. You are not entitled to an opinion about other people's genders and how they should be "allowed" to express them.
Let's make this more visible. Interestingly, the playwright himself tries the "hey, it's not like I wrote about the Klan" approach. Well, exactly. When anti-trans speech and actions (same for misogyny) are questioned, a quick way to make what is going on crystal clear is to sub in race for gender.
If this playwright's poem that is quoted in the article had been about race instead of gender, it would have read “You tell me I can’t be your friend/Unless I believe you are a real human/I can’t do that.”
Voila--clearly this is vile to present on the stage, unless in the mouth of a character we are meant to find racist. A play that "raises questions about how some people define their genders" is no more acceptable than a play that raises questions about whether some people should be able to attend college, eat at lunch counters, or vote.
Yes, art should talk about all the existence of human existence, including racism, LGTBQ-hatred, and misogyny. A play that explores that gets the stage--a play that expresses that does not.
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2 REPLIES
Frank commented January 11
F
Frank
SFCA
Jan. 11
@uffish The playwright never suggested that the trans person he is addressing is not "human," so I find your example to be somewhat more extreme. No one's status was a human being is in dispute.
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Dan T. commented January 11
D
Dan T.
Boca Raton, FL
Jan. 11
@uffish Your right to swing your fist ends where someone else’s nose begins. You can believe and say whatever you like about your own conception of what your gender is, but once you start demanding admission to spaces limited to one sex, others are involved and have a right to their opinions too.
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M-in-Vegas commented January 11
M
M-in-Vegas
Las Vegas, NV
Jan. 11
The amusing part of this is that there are many, many trans people who believe that there are, in fact, only 2 sexes. They just believe they're the wrong one.
Calling this work anti-trans is ridiculous. One could consider it anti-gender-fluid or anti-non-binary, but those are different things. I wonder if any trans people are involved in making these decisions in their name?
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1 REPLY
aP commented January 11
A
aP
Ann Arbor
Jan. 11
@M-in-Vegas yes, in what sense does a statement like “gender doesn’t exist” not undermine the experience of trans people? There are a lot of rough edges that never get addressed because it’s really difficult to have an honest conversation. Even raising questions about things that seem like logical inconsistencies gets shut down as hate speech.
…Civilizations the world over have - for better or worse - been built around the idea of two genders. It’s an idea that is central to more than one creation myth. And for that reason it’s a basic axiom of the world most of us grew up in. ..getting everyone to rethink that isn’t something that is going to happen overnight, but willingness to have open conversations would help. I don’t think the quick tendency to accuse people who have questions of being bigoted hate mongers is very conducive to making progress. It just carves out more fault lines in society.
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charlie corcoran commented January 11
C
charlie corcoran
Minnesota
Jan. 11
Yeah, this is nothing avant-garde. The Kinks framed it well over 50 years ago, "Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world Except for Lola. Lo-Lo-Lo-Lo-Lola." Non-binary is now an expected check box. Indeed, a mixed up world...
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Johnnynaz commented January 10
J
Johnnynaz
West Hartford, CT
Jan. 10
I do find it interesting that one trans person gets veto power over anything that that one particular person views as anti-trans. Should that one person be allowed to speak for a whole community?
I think I'm pretty smart and know a good bit about the gay community--and the "bear community" in particular (full disclosure: I'm a bear). I've been the "victim" of anti-bear bias perpetrated by "twinks." So I know what that bias feels like and have some choice words for its perpetrators. But does that mean that what I consider "anti-bear" is something my fellow bears would also consider anti-bear? I dunno. Should I get veto power because a gay play comes across as anti-bear just because I'm one of the organizers of a festival showcasing fringe theater? I'd love that kind of power, don't get me wrong. But I also know it wouldn't be right.
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1 REPLY
Johan Wehtje commented January 11
J
Johan Wehtje
Sydney, Australia
Jan. 11
@Johnnynaz It's disheartening that again and again gatekeepers cave to the most thin skinned. At the same time there is a certain pattern to who has veto power and who doesn't even if the heirarchy is shifting all the time.
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Doug Bates commented January 10
D
Doug Bates
Silver Spring Maryland
Jan. 10
I bought the book of poetry today, Poems on Gender, by David Lee Morgan, after reading this article -- I read the entire thing, it's not that long. OMG, it is not hateful at all, and it is not anti-trans! It does engage in a vigorous debate about the meaning of gender, the meaning of biological sex, and how culture and capitalism engage in wars upon our bodies in the name of gender. It tackles difficult ideas, from a variety of viewpoints. It is challenging, but not hateful, and not anti-trans, if you read the entire thing instead of a few phrases taken out of context.
Who gets to define what is "anti-trans"? If one trans person says so about a work, then must we censor the work to avoid offending one person? I identify as nonbinary, which some people consider to be a type of transgender, and I do not view this work as anti-trans. Do we get to vote on this, or do we have to censor something because one person claims it is hateful? Or can we allow diversity of opinion even when somebody gets hurt?
I value freedom of speech more than I value making sure nobody is ever upset by something they've read or heard or seen. The real world is upsetting. Discussions about real issues can be upsetting. There's more than one way to view gender issues, and this short volume explores many of them. But never in a hateful way.
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3 REPLIES
Brianna commented January 11
B
Brianna
Seattle
Jan. 11
@Doug Bates "OMG, it is not hateful at all, and it is not anti-trans!... It tackles difficult ideas, from a variety of viewpoints. It is challenging, but not hateful, and not anti-trans, if you read the entire thing instead of a few phrases taken out of context."
Yes, exactly. Too bad the Frigid Festival apparently didn't bother to judge the work as a whole.
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Kathleen Warnock commented January 11
K
Kathleen Warnock
New York City
Jan. 11
@Doug Bates You bought his book. The artist got paid. That's what we call a "win" in the literary/theater community.
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Geneva 9 commented January 11
Geneva 9
Geneva 9
Salem
Jan. 11
Even the artist respected the Fringe Festival’s point of view.
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Tim commented January 10
T
Tim
New York City
Jan. 10
Erez is a thoughtful, passionate arts advocate. If he feels it's not for his theatre, that's the right decision. Full support for Frigid and Erez on this. His house, his rules.
The playwright can seek to perform it elsewhere.
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Gundolfo commented January 10
G
Gundolfo
Holy Office
Jan. 10
The Fringe becomes Mainstream.
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2 REPLIES
Kathleen Warnock commented January 11
K
Kathleen Warnock
New York City
Jan. 11
@Gundolfo You know there hasn't been a NY Fringe since 2016, right? And there are several excellent venues that present cutting edge work in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx and maybe even Staten Island!
Unless you're someone who actually attends fringe venues, all you're doing is posturing.
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Kathleen Warnock commented January 11
K
Kathleen Warnock
New York City
Jan. 11
@Gundolfo You know there hasn't been a Fringe NYC festival since 2016, right? Did you notice you weren't getting the mailings.
Also, that was a curated, juried festival.
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jrd commented January 10
J
jrd
ny
Jan. 10
So "Fringe" declines to be fringe, because some interested staffers determine that the material is “very minimizing of our experiences".
King Lear? Out the window -- unfair to daughters! Minimizes the infirmities age (or promotes ageism, take your pick)!
Oedipus Rex? -- minimizes moms! Unfair to sons!
Administrators will be death of culture.
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1 REPLY
Jess Vaughn commented January 11
J
Jess Vaughn
Brooklyn
Jan. 11
What are you doing to promote culture? Because the people who run Frigid are working pretty hard on getting a lot of work out there.
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everydayispoetry commented January 10
E
everydayispoetry
Syracuse NY
Jan. 10
Do those who cancelled it really consider Morgan's work to be hateful? Or is it more that it contains some elements of truths that they're not willing to hear?
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pulsation commented January 10
P
pulsation
CT
Jan. 10
Looks like the once-admired festival is now becoming a rigid orthodoxy. They should not call themselves a "fringe festival". Censorship in any form is abhorrent. It is up to the audience, not the festival organizers, to decide if a work is worth seeing.
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2 REPLIES
Kathleen Warnock commented January 11
K
Kathleen Warnock
New York City
Jan. 11
@pulsation Hmm. When was the last time you were down at the Kraine, or Under St. Marks? Those are the venues of Frigid....but you knew that, right?
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Kathleen Warnock commented January 11
K
Kathleen Warnock
New York City
Jan. 11
@pulsation Please, tell us what shows you've seen over the years at Frigid that you are worried will be excluded/thrown out?
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voltairesmistress commented January 10
V
voltairesmistress
San Francisco
Jan. 10
So sad to see this play getting pulled.
I don’t agree with the playwright/poet’s comments on trans surgery. I am agnostic on whether there are just two genders.
But these are ideas that need air time, not the shutting down of illuminating discussion.
My own mind has been changed on various trans issues, and that has come through reading and mingling with trans people.
Mostly it has come through getting to know my mother’s caretaker. She is trans. I don’t think of her as anything but a woman, and I relate to her as a woman myself, woman to woman. Is that the right way to think of her? Should I be doing anything different? Without discussion, even confrontation through works of art, we cannot grow as people, or grow our culture.
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3 REPLIES
Kathleen Warnock commented January 10
K
Kathleen Warnock
New York City
Jan. 10
@voltairesmistress so your mind was changed, but it had nothing to do with going to the theater?
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charlie corcoran commented January 10
C
charlie corcoran
Minnesota
Jan. 10
More than two genders? Totally cool like from 2001 Space Odyssey. Eventually no genders. Debate solved.
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voltairesmistress commented January 11
V
voltairesmistress
San Francisco
Jan. 11
Hi Kathleen,
Sadly, I have not been to the theater )or opera, cinema, live music or comedy shows) in person since my toddler was born. My wife and I get one or two dinners out per month when we have childcare. We get home by 7:30 pm to be there for his (delightful) bedtime. So, no, my consumption of culture and the recent surge in trans-related questions have not dovetailed into a theater-going experience that challenged my beliefs. Instead, I find most of those challenges and new ideas through reading or the occasional Netflix binge.
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Bob commented January 10
B
Bob
Vail Arizona
Jan. 10
I am old now.. many years ago the point of extreme free speech (what fringe festivals and fringe art shows use to be) was to get out works regardless of who they offended or what people thought.
Now if it makes "someone" uncomfortable or denies their "reality" it is worth of cancellation?
I don't see a call to violence against any group or an attack on their beliefs. It does reflect a disagreement but how is that worth of rejection from a "fringe" production.
How's that go" There are no old liberals just confused former liberals"
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1 REPLY
IEB commented January 11
I
IEB
Chicago, IL
Jan. 11
@Bob
Let's be honest here: The primary purpose of "extreme free speech" over the past hundred years or so has been to transgress and subvert traditional conservative values in the name of bringing about utopian social change. But as the quasi-religious Woke Left insinuates itself into our institutions and gains more and more power it is displaying a puritanical unwillingness to allow its own sacred doctrines to be transgressed.
And for whatever reason, the doctrine of The Transubstantiation of Genders -- male to female and female to male -- seems to be the most sacred doctrine of all. As Tertullian (purportedly) said: "I believe it *because* it is absurd".
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