Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Trig.Point]

And when the Russians haul a WW2 85mm or 100mm out of storage

Any Russian soldier trying to operate an Anti Tank gun, in an an actual Anti Tank role (not just using it as direct fire artillery like they've mostly been used in ukraine) would be better off just shooting himself.

The leopard I can take modern Thermal Imaginers, fire control computers and Gun Stablisers. It's also available in quantity. I suspect what will happen is that Germany will pick a figure say 200 Leopard I's, and decide to maintain that number consistently in Ukrainian service. If 1 gets knocked out, the German will take a replacement from storage. They'll maintain that baseline in Ukrainian service. If the Russians have a success then they can up the number.

They won't allow Ukraine to get to the point where they could maybe retake Crimea, but they will keep their military at a state where they'll bleed Russia dry.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

They don't actually need to enter it or even commit that many troops, i.e. Bakhmut 2.0; just make it unusable & uninhabitable for the Ukrainians; although even a small breakthrough certainly would offer the opportunity for an end-run around that part of the Ukrainian lines.

And speaking of Russian cannon-fodder:

Spoiler: leftovers

View attachment 4552525

Funny, seen a coworker yesterday watch that video on yaplakal.com (9gag for Russian boomers) dubbed as "Ukrainian losses", seemed sus then. I couldn't see or hear anything that would identify the side, but now I see a dude with the white band, which would indicate Russians.
Either way horrific.

these things are over 40 years old and somehow they still manage to hit moving targets in the air from several kilometers away with autocannon fire
actually crazy tbh

Apparently, Swiss cunts prohibited exporting munitions for it to Ukraine (they produce it), which is bothersome. Not sure if that changed since.

 

[Snekposter]

Any Russian soldier trying to operate an Anti Tank gun, in an an actual Anti Tank role (not just using it as direct fire artillery like they've mostly been used in ukraine) would be better off just shooting himself.

Well... you could say that about the T-62's Russia is refurbishing. They could wind up hauling this out of storage next. It can even fire Arkan tandem warhead ATGM's! Never say never when it comes to Russia.

 

[Ghostse]

The T-62 was designed as sort of an IFV-tank. The general idea was the T-62 would be attached to mechanized infantry as more of a "motorized anti-tank gun" than a MBT, and wasn't expected to carry its own weight against enemy armor. It was to be cheap, plentiful, and add firesupport to your mechanized infantry for dealing with pillboxes and keep them from getting completely overrun if counter attacked.

Its got a weird caliber gun, and its a 60's tank. They are slapping new optics on them, and ERA brackets. But generally sending them out to get RPG-7'd.

 

[LeChampion1992]

Well... you could say that about the T-62's Russia is refurbishing. They could wind up hauling this out of storage next. It can even fire Arkan tandem warhead ATGM's! Never say never when it comes to Russia.

Never forget that type of round is still somewhat effective against soft target as well. This war is proving that WW2 Era equipment if you put on modern thermals and basic sights can be almost as good as the expensive multi million dollar tank.
We haven't even had WWIII and we're starting to notice that the next war is not going to have all the nice futuristic stuff but basically revert back into WW2 tech.

They don't actually need to enter it or even commit that many troops, i.e. Bakhmut 2.0; just make it unusable & uninhabitable for the Ukrainians; although even a small breakthrough certainly would offer the opportunity for an end-run around that part of the Ukrainian lines.

And speaking of Russian cannon-fodder:

Spoiler: leftovers

View attachment 4552525

I feel for a lot of these vatnik types because they don't understand how deadly this war is. I see so many people online act like Russia hasn't even lost 20,000 people and is winning massively despite map evidence saying otherwise (prone to change considering weather conditions and acts of God.)

The Gepard is a vehicle that doesn't make a lot of sense. It has two seperate radars one for search one for targeting (it'll follow the rounds fires as well as the target). It was horrendously expensive and extremely difficult to maintain. Compared to something like a ZSU-23-4 which just has a simple range only radar, that lets the gunner line up the target.

Essentially it didn't make sense to spend that much money on a short range cannon based system. Even SAM systems tend to share a search radar for the entire battery. Not give each individual launcher multiple radars.

When the Germans got rid of them, a lot of nations picked them up cheap only to discover that they couldn't afford to keep them running.

Anyway it'll be perfect for what the Ukrainians are using it for, protecting against drones. When they need to perform maintenance on it, they'll just load it onto a rail car and ship it back to Germany.

It's Ironic that the Ukrainians will prove the German theory of Armored vehicle deployment, that they tried to use in WWII. Don't fuck around with forward repair, simply drag vehicles to a railhead and send them back to the factory for repair.

Those Leopard I's that are coming, they're going to murder the Russians. That tank is the personification of lessons learned on the Eastern front in WWII. Ignore all the hype about M1A1's, that tank with upgraded optics is going to rape the Russians.

Well they're getting modern top tier optical systems to slowly replace put the captured Russian and personal stock they have. It's very funny but you might find stories of a tank that has changed dozens of times. That started in Russian hands, end up in a Ukraines farmers field, then get recaptured by the Russians, only to be recaptured again mostly intact.
As for the Abrams it's going to be interesting to see if the Abrams multi fuel system will work.

Satellite imagery of Russian build-up near Voronezh & Kursk, northeast of Kharkiv.

That's where I figured the Russians would push next; rather than continue around Bakhmut, towards Zaporizhzhia, or from the Donetsk/Luhansk direction.

The loss of Kharkiv had to have stung Russian egos worse than Kherson, and major fighting there would impact Ukraine's ability to conduct it's own counter-offensive elsewhere. Though next time the Russians probably won't bother trying to take the city without levelling it first.

The only problem with that is the amount of artillery it takes means they're going to be limited where they can send those valuable men and shells. they're going through approximately anywhere from 8,000-20,000 shells a day. This war might be bankrupting all the world's cold war stock of artillery shells. Taking out a city like Kharkiv is only going to take far more artillery and the topography and populace are more favorable to the Ukrainians especially in defense as it's heavily wooded, and Kharvkiv is a massive city that makes Grozny seem like a picnic.

 

[MG-34]

The Gepard is a vehicle that doesn't make a lot of sense. It has two seperate radars one for search one for targeting (it'll follow the rounds fires as well as the target). It was horrendously expensive and extremely difficult to maintain. Compared to something like a ZSU-23-4 which just has a simple range only radar, that lets the gunner line up the target.

The Shilka seems to have under performed in this war. The guidance system is very hard to maintain or refribish compared to the gepard. I'd have to dig for it but I saw a article where a Shilka crew member claims they have to have a spotter direct the vechile and pre aim it before trying to visually shoot a target down. We also don't see any Central European countries send in their Shilka fleet which gives doubt that they are in a serviceable state. The Gepard, despite being German seems to easier to pull out of storage and send over.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

And speaking of Russian cannon-fodder:

Spoiler: leftovers

View attachment 4552525

What part of this video tells you that these are Russian corpses? The one guy not in a body bag is wearing camouflage that is obviously not Russian digital flora and looks suspiciously closer to the much browner Ukrainian camo seen below.

The leopard I can take modern Thermal Imaginers

That's good, imagination is very important.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

What part of this video tells you that these are Russian corpses? The one guy not in a body bag is wearing camouflage that is obviously not Russian digital flora and looks suspiciously closer to the much browner Ukrainian camo seen below.

View attachment 4558685



That's good, imagination is very important.

It's hard to discern anything at all there, people are wearing all sorts of camo, like Russian mobiks who often had to source their own, even more so Wagner's fodder with hand-me-downs from prisons with life expectancy measured in days, but I doubt anyone would even bother packing up the latter.
It's possible though, but the video is inconclusive. FS alleges some sort of deal for between Ukraine and Wagner to return bodies of the fallen Ukrainian defenders, but I couldn't find anything from the Ukrainian side - it would be scummy and disrespectful for them not to cover it. It would be demoralizing, but at the same time sacrifice of the soldiers has to be acknowledged.
And as a side note, it could just be all the bodies they retrieved, including their own.

From eng sources found only articles like this one: https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...es-soldiers-killed-soledar-report-2023-01-21/
Which highlights that both sides claiming that the other one suffered heavy losses. And adding Prigozhin's claim that Wagner is an independent organization with their own hardware, which makes him what we call pizdabol. He's Putin's buddy and is supplied by the Kremlin, nothing to even discuss here, especially considering that such organizations are supposed to be illegal in Russia - it only exists to give Putin plausible deniability, which is practically pointless now, as their involvement is clear for everyone to see.
As Ukrainian forces left Soledar, Prigozhin could even shove random hobos in the boxes and we would be none the wiser.

Motherfucker is larping as some kind of honorable general, as if he isn't waging the war to conquer and subjugate. How kind of him to put his victims in the boxes, what a sweetheart.

 

[MG-34]

What part of this video tells you that these are Russian corpses? The one guy not in a body bag is wearing camouflage that is obviously not Russian digital flora and looks suspiciously closer to the much browner Ukrainian camo seen below.

View attachment 4558685



That's good, imagination is very important.

There's several examples of Russian soldiers wearing Ukrainian uniforms.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

There's several examples of Russian soldiers wearing Ukrainian uniforms.

OK. What are the realistic odds that that corpse happens to be a Russian wearing a Ukrainian uniform (for some reason) as opposed to a Ukrainian wearing a Ukrainian uniform?

 

[MG-34]

OK. What are the realistic odds that that corpse happens to be a Russian wearing a Ukrainian uniform (for some reason) as opposed to a Ukrainian wearing a Ukrainian uniform?

Russian soldiers wearing enemy uniforms are incapable of dying? You also don't have to play stupid here. Russians using using enemy uniforms and equipment is nothing new.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

Russian soldiers wearing enemy uniforms are incapable of dying?

Your unwillingness to simply answer the question posed, and instead respond with bizarre strawman questions is pretty telling.

Step back and look at the conversation and how you're responding and think about why you're doing that.

 

[Blatant hypocrite]

but now I see a dude with the white band, which would indicate Russians.

The one guy not in a body bag is wearing camouflage that is obviously not Russian digital flora and looks suspiciously closer to the much browner Ukrainian camo seen below.

Could be just sorting a pile of corpses, if one body has the white band and the other has the Ukrainian uniform.

I'm inclined to think they found a bunch of bodies in a ditch somewhere and need to identify them.

 

[MG-34]

Your unwillingness to simply answer the question posed, and instead respond with bizarre strawman questions is pretty telling.

Step back and look at the conversation and how you're responding and think about why you're doing that.

Here's a photo of a Russian using a Ukrainian uniform.


It's also obvious the Russians would wear enemy uniforms to deceive their enemy. They even used this tactic in the Solviet-Afganistan war. You can quit playing dumb anytime now and claiming it's a strawman or some other meme.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

Here's a photo of a Russian using a Ukrainian uniform.

It's also obvious the Russians would wear enemy uniforms to deceive their enemy. They even used this tactic in the Solviet-Afganistan war. You can quit playing dumb anytime now and claiming it's a strawman or some other meme.

OK so the most logical thing to do when seeing a corpse in Ukrainian camo is to assume it's the corpse of a Russian soldier. That is, after all, the thing most likely to be true.

Got it.

 

[Trig.Point]

The Shilka seems to have under performed in this war. The guidance system is very hard to maintain or refribish compared to the gepard. I'd have to dig for it but I saw a article where a Shilka crew member claims they have to have a spotter direct the vechile and pre aim it before trying to visually shoot a target down. We also don't see any Central European countries send in their Shilka fleet which gives doubt that they are in a serviceable state. The Gepard, despite being German seems to easier to pull out of storage and send over.

That's how the Shilka works by design, that radar is range only. The gunner has to manually aim the turret at the target, and then he'll get the range from the radar to allow him to calculate drop.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

OK so the most logical thing to do when seeing a corpse in Ukrainian camo is to assume it's the corpse of a Russian soldier. That is, after all, the thing most likely to be true.

Got it.

No, the logical thing to do is to assume that the evidence is inconclusive. As is often the case in this mess.

 

[DumbDude43]

Apparently, Swiss cunts prohibited exporting munitions for it to Ukraine (they produce it), which is bothersome. Not sure if that changed since.

German ammunition plant to sidestep Swiss re-export ban

Weapons manufacturer Rheinmetall to build factory in Germany as Switzerland refuses to allow its ammunition to be re-exported to Ukraine.

www.swissinfo.ch

apparently they're setting up more production facilities inside germany itself to get around the swiss neutrality issue

 

[01169]

The leopard I can take modern Thermal Imaginers, fire control computers and Gun Stablisers. It's also available in quantity. I suspect what will happen is that Germany will pick a figure say 200 Leopard I's, and decide to maintain that number consistently in Ukrainian service. If 1 gets knocked out, the German will take a replacement from storage. They'll maintain that baseline in Ukrainian service. If the Russians have a success then they can up the number.

You must be high. If you're a German that's blatant propaganda and if you're not let a German tell you that your image of the German resourcefulness is completely off. There will NEVER be any Leopard I or II tanks in a significant number supplied to Ukraine. Let alone being replaced and serviced.

"Up the number"? The only number that is going up in Germany is the number of shitskins and Ukies begging for gibs.

If you look for support look elsewhere. Our politicians are big on announcements but lack in substance to come through with their promises.

 

[Fortyone]

Some new insane footage from around bakhmut from the Ukrainian POV. The soldier Allegedly shoots a bmp with an rpg and then kills some of the dismounts with his gun. Sorry it's lacking sound.

What part of this video tells you that these are Russian corpses? The one guy not in a body bag is wearing camouflage that is obviously not Russian digital flora and looks suspiciously closer to the much browner Ukrainian camo seen below.

View attachment 4558685



That's good, imagination is very important.

Wagnerites have been caught wearing Ukrainian camo numerous times in an illegal effort to confuse the Ukrainians or increase friendly fire. There was a video where the Ukrainians captured some of the Russians wearing Ukrainian camo and so they emptied a magazine into each of their heads after they properly identified them as Russian soldiers.

In general you will see wagner doing the things the Russian command wishes they could do (smashing people's heads with a sledgehammer and uploading it in a propaganda piece, wearing enemy uniforms, abusing prisoners even more routinely than the Russian army does, using their meat (soldiers) in an even more carefree way, etc.).

Wagner is basically also the main PR arm of the Russian army right now. domestically they have a large media presence including popular music and videos. internationally they put out ads in Africa, Serbia, and even on inforwars to get retards to go die in the Donbass. Prigozin is basically aslo filling a similar role in the media for Russia that Zelensky does for Ukraine, they both go to the front and film all sorts of videos to improve Troop morale and appear present, a key example is when he larped in that jet and challenged zelensky to a dogfight.

I think kadryov was the old main media man for the Russians but after the Chechens have taken very heavy attrition he doesn't talk too much anymore.