Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Funfact: wagnetards aren't protected by international war in this case. They aren't soldiers, they aren't civilians helping own forces in war ont they land, they aren't even insurgents. The only legal frameworks than protect/non protect them from execution/hanging on na tree/seting them of fire after capture is local war of whatever country they are.

Another funfact: some EU countries don't punish when someone kills a robber/murderer/rapist (as wagnetards in fact are) in certain circumstances AFTER capturing him and securing him. So in some countries, if they will be used at war, they will probably be just killed after capture.
If videos released of the Ukies shooting captured wager faggots dead and stacking their bodies like cordwood would be lauded by the international community at this point. The greater public sees these guys the same way the world saw the Dirlewanger Brigade. It's amusing how badly the Russian goverment fucked up to get to this point.
 
Funfact: wagnetards aren't protected by international war in this case. They aren't soldiers, they aren't civilians helping own forces in war ont they land, they aren't even insurgents. The only legal frameworks than protect/non protect them from execution/hanging on na tree/seting them of fire after capture is local war of whatever country they are.

Another funfact: some EU countries don't punish when someone kills a robber/murderer/rapist (as wagnetards in fact are) in certain circumstances AFTER capturing him and securing him. So in some countries, if they will be used at war, they will probably be just killed after capture.
going by laws of war, wagner men are mercenaries. if i remember right, some major international treaty explicitly exempts mercenaries from the protections and rights that are given to lawful combatants - like, i think you arent obligated to accept surrender from them, dont have to give them PoW status, etc. when those treaties and conventions were signed, the states involved really really did not like the idea of mercenaries in general, and it shows.
 
Is that what we're trying to determine? I thought the question now was are the dudes in videos about Bakhmut that @Feline Supremacist was posting were speaking Ukrainian.
I'll be quite frank, 50 dead soldiers whether Russian or Ukrainian is no surprise.

Wagner committing a war crime would also be no surprise, but I'd like to know if they actually did.
 
The German military basically ceased to exist after 1990 so I'm surprised they've even been able to send as much as they have. I think we'll see no shortage of the Leo 1s (60s tank, on par with the T-62) and Leo 2s (several were destroyed in North Syria by rebel groups) disabled/destroyed. Still, the Tanks will help and they will force the Russians to pay an even higher price if they want to take the entire Donbass or other areas, and the LEO 2s are probably better than anything the Russians field as far as tanks go.




Wagner posts videos of their own dead bodies in garbage bags stacked like firewood from time to time, they're retarded like that. (video is from last month)

View attachment 4560042
Someone filming asked "Who's lying there" and he basically replied "Fighters of PMC Wagner. We'll pack them in zinc coffins and send them home as heroes", meanwhile, as you say, they're stacked like firewood in the background. Jesus, man.
They already throw that away while ago. You know, they also sanctioning ruzzia, but in lesser way than Germoney or USA.
Can only imagine how much Russian oligarch money is in their banks.
 
But they have such fine clockwork!




Considering that he invited Biden to Minsk and is using his platform only to shitpost, I am starting to cozy up a lot to regime change and CIA glowops. Send me an offer you glowniggies. Let's do a regime change.
 
Someone filming asked "Who's lying there" and he basically replied "Fighters of PMC Wagner. We'll pack them in zinc coffins and send them home as heroes", meanwhile, as you say, they're stacked like firewood in the background. Jesus, man.

C'est la guerre, mon amie.

They're dead, won't be hurting them any to lay in a room stacked up. It's not like evacuating dead casualties is first priority in an actual war, as opposed to a turkey shoot in a sandbox where you have all manner of air superiority, immediate evac options, etc.
 
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The German government will do whatever the Pentagon tells it to.
Or they realized that best bussiness in long term will be smashing ruzia.
going by laws of war, wagner men are mercenaries.
They aren't even that (at least ones with ruzzia citizenship). They just criminals like a random robber near frontline.
If videos released of the Ukies shooting captured wager faggots dead and stacking their bodies like cordwood would be lauded by the international community at this point. The
I will take a while, but in some time, if war will not end OR some Russians will take a loud anti-Pootin side ruzzians will end as a hated minority. And Europe isn't a nice place when you are a hated minority, so i just didn't get how many shit must be in heads od ruzzkies sitting in EU and supporting Pootin.

Someone was asking about ruzzians in Latvia, but I cannot find that post. I see at morning, but didn't have time to reply, so...

...long story short: non-citizen ruzzians in Latvia are permanent residents from many, many, many years, mostly from time of USSR. Question of citizenships was a clusterfuck after dissolution of USSR (even bigger than question of new currencies and fate of old ruble), but in this case story was short: Latvia just ignored giving citizenship to non-integrated minorities after dissolution of USSR. If they wish to be a citizen of Latvia they must firstly be residents of Latvia 5 years AFTER year 1990, have a job and be able to speak fluently in local language. Certain groups are banned from gaining citizenship (everyone who was opposed to Latvian state).

Latvia never expelled 'unwanted' ruzzians, but they numbers are smaller after every year. In 1991 they have more than 1/3 share in population, new they have less than 1/4 share.
 
C'est la guerre, mon amie.

They're dead, won't be hurting them any to lay in a room stacked up. It's not like evacuating dead casualties is first priority in an actual war, as opposed to a turkey shoot in a sandbox where you have all manner of air superiority, immediate evac options, etc.
World superpower and NATO peer tho.
Well, I'm just always shocked by how fucked up all this is. Didn't have to happen.
 
They already throw that away while ago. You know, they also sanctioning ruzzia, but in lesser way than Germoney or USA.

Not exactly. In most cases this type of deals require permission of producer to re-export items.

How stupid is to buy military from Swiss I will not debate. Lets say this isn't very wise to buy gun from someone, who cannot sell you ammo/spare parts/more gun when you be in war.


Funfact: wagnetards aren't protected by international war in this case. They aren't soldiers, they aren't civilians helping own forces in war ont they land, they aren't even insurgents. The only legal frameworks than protect/non protect them from execution/hanging on na tree/seting them of fire after capture is local war of whatever country they are.

Another funfact: some EU countries don't punish when someone kills a robber/murderer/rapist (as wagnetards in fact are) in certain circumstances AFTER capturing him and securing him. So in some countries, if they will be used at war, they will probably be just killed after capture.
Not entirely accurate. Wagner is very clearly under the control and orders of a State, so they should be afforded POW status unless clearly breaking the laws of war. Which wearing an enemy uniform is a big no no.
 
Not entirely accurate. Wagner is very clearly under the control and orders of a State, so they should be afforded POW status unless clearly breaking the laws of war. Which wearing an enemy uniform is a big no no.
Even their founder claims it's a private org, while Kremlin exercises plausible deniability. We know they work on behalf of the state, but why would you afford them favorable conditions? Can't have your cake and eat it too.
With their (il)legal status in mind, seems like they aren't a subject to international treaties. Meaning that at the very least they can't be trusted to follow any of it.

Russian public still doesn't recognize their crimes in foreign countries, such as butchering this civilian in Syria: https://novayagazeta.ru/articles/2019/11/20/82805-golovorezy-21
There's no accountability whatsoever.
 
Even their founder claims it's a private org, while Kremlin exercises plausible deniability. We know they work on behalf of the state, but why would you afford them favorable conditions? Can't have your cake and eat it too.
With their (il)legal status in mind, seems like they aren't a subject to international treaties. Meaning that at the very least they can't be trusted to follow any of it.

Russian public still doesn't recognize their crimes in foreign countries, such as butchering this civilian in Syria: https://novayagazeta.ru/articles/2019/11/20/82805-golovorezy-21
There's no accountability whatsoever.
Imo, it's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to POWs. When the treaties were written Mercenary companies were alot more...mercenary then they are today.
 
Imo, it's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to POWs. When the treaties were written Mercenary companies were alot more...mercenary then they are today.
I'd rather these maniacs remain in Ukrainian soil than come back to Russia alive.
On the battlefield combatants on both sides would probably prefer to be treated humanely if captured, that's one incentive to do it properly. Because otherwise you get eye for an eye, and other body parts too.

Would you look at that:
There's so much Russian money in UK, you'd be pressed to find someone who's not a spy.
 
@Vince McMahon @Astro Galactic Megalul
You've been summoned. Is Wagner doing the Ukrainian uniform thing?
It's been suggested that they do, as far as I've read it, however, no definitive proof, if I remember correctly. Russians stole a shit ton of National Guard uniforms in the beginning of the war, when they were close to Kyiv, so why not? They cut off balls, why not perfidy?
 
I do think Bakhmut is going to fall in the next week or two. But I'm ready to some hilarious cope for the Pro-Russian side when they run into the defensive line that has been built up over the past half a year, while they've been stuck on Bakhmut. The whole Bakhmut issue is complicated with the fact hardcore Pro-Ukies are acting like Bakhmut doesn't matter which isn't true, but the Pro-Russians are acting like taking Bakhmut means that the Ukrainian army will instantly collapse and surrender, or at least be instantly pushed out of the entire Donbass region. One side is understating its importance, and the other is vastly overstating its importance. So really it's nothing special since we've seen this whole thing happen before, but because Bakhmut has held for months and months it's had a magnifying glass put over it.
 
@draggs @mindlessobserver

I still think members of PMC cannot be a POW, and aren't mercenaries.

Geneva III about POW - who could be:

ART. 4. — A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

c) that of carrying arms openly;

d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory who, on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.


And lets see PMC Wagner:

- they aren't part of ruzzian armed forces in any terms (so point 1) goes to the hell);

- point 2) goes to hell also - they didn't have any leaders that are reasponsible for they actions and also they aren't a volunteer corps nor militia - they cannot be private-owned VC or militia;

- point 3) also goes to hell in case of PMC, they aren't suborbinates of any gov., but of their owner Big Bald P.;

- points 4) and 5) also goes to hell (obvious);

- point 6) in THEORY can be that which covered PMC... after start of war, in first weeks or months. Not after a year. They had plenty of time to at least deteached them to ruzzkie regulars and uniform them to some point.

To check who is, and who isn't mercenary we must look to Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977.

Article 47 point 2 letter d loudly told us that mercenary must be a citizen or resident of territory controlled by party. So ALL PMC members that has ruzzian citizenship aren't mercenaries, and those foreigners who are part of PMC will not be mercenaries if they reside in ruzzia or ruzzia-controlled territory. Who is and who isn't resident is a sperging lvl expert so not this time.

It is hard to tell who are members of pmc's, but one can be stated clear: they aren't covered by Geneva III. Nor the PA (un)covers them. So they should be counted as random guy who was stupid enough to have a gun and commit a offense (criminal) near frontline. So only country-level legislation could cover him.

IF I was forced to point one illegal ukrainian action that I will point giving captured members of PMC to ruzzia. None international law allows to give someone without any legal procedures to other country. Even worse: Ukrainian SHOULD predict that at least some of PMC members will be killed after sending them back to ruzzia. Killing someone when he is surrending or when try to capture (and even seconds after capture) is one thing, sending someone to be hammerized by degenerates from wagnetards is another thing.
 
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I'd rather these maniacs remain in Ukrainian soil than come back to Russia alive.
On the battlefield combatants on both sides would probably prefer to be treated humanely if captured, that's one incentive to do it properly. Because otherwise you get eye for an eye, and other body parts too.

Would you look at that:
There's so much Russian money in UK, you'd be pressed to find someone who's not a spy.
Back in the good old days there was a member of the Royal family who was a Russian spy called Anthony Bunt. The fam knew what was going on and even joked about it, but didn't do anything of substance.
 
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