Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

Are there really any credible leaks that Kylo/Ben will be back for the Rey movie? I'm not following speculations online, but I've seen a lot of spergi about him being all but confirmed as back, so I'm wondering. Imo that would be really cheap and creatively bankrupt if they drag him back from the dead just to make the Reylos happy instead of actually coming up with new and interesting characters, but then again, we *are* talking about Disney here...
I heard that Boyega's been tapped for the Rey movie, but after all that "don't Disney Plus" me shit plus how raw of a deal Finn got it's sort of hard to believe. Daisy coming back at least made sense because she got to play the main character.
 
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Haven't posted here in ages since Rise of Skywalker might as well have been the end all confirmation that nothing good will ever come from anything Star Wars until Total Disney Death, but goddammit, seeing this shit the other day at the liquor store reminded me that this is what Star Wars is now. If you told me a decade ago when I was in college that one day I'd be drinking Star Wars booze, I'd think it was the crazy shit the aliens are drinking in the cantina come to life, not some overpriced IPA with a can covered in pictures of wolves. Can Disney Star Wars ever NOT shoehorn wolves into anything? It's all so tiresome...
"You will drink the wolf piss IPA and eat the wolf poo pellets and you better damn well like it!"
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What exactly was Finn's purpose in these movies?
  • Diversity hire made to stir controversy by being a black Stormtrooper
  • Comedy relief
  • Bait and switch to hide the fact that Rey was a Jedi in the marketing for TFA (that's why he was shown with the lightsaber)
  • Rey's simp/personal cheerleader
In TFA Finn hit nearly all the beats to be the everyman character going on an adventure and turning into a hero, aka the Luke Skywalker role
I disagree. 20 minutes into the movie he's shooting his former First Order co-workers then falls in love with Rey at first sight. Him and Rey only get involved in the plot by sheer coincidence, where he then becomes her sidekick. He's a liar and a total pussy who can't do anything on his own. Plus everything he does is played for laughs. He almost has an arc and not being a coward but then he gets almost killed by Kylo and is out of the movie so Rey can meet Luke by herself.
You make Finn the MC, and the Chinese market goes fucking nuts
Maybe, but at the same time the Chinese don't give a fuck about Star Wars (or masturbatory nostalgiafests) considering how badly the sequels did over there with a white female protagonist. So it really didn't matter. Sure Disney was TRYING super hard to pander to China, but it failed.
 
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I disagree. 20 minutes into the movie he's shooting his former First Order co-workers then falls in love with Rey at first sight. Him and Rey only get involved in the plot by sheer coincidence, where he then becomes her sidekick. He's a liar and a total pussy who can't do anything on his own. Plus everything he does is played for laughs. He almost has an arc and not being a coward but then he gets almost killed by Kylo and is out of the movie so Rey can meet Luke by herself.
If you follow the plotline of TFA, Finn and Han fit nearly the exact mold that Luke and Kenobi had in ANH (in a poor fashion, but still) and if they did want to copy and paste from A New Hope, they could have used those two.

The problem is, Rey exists, and proceed to help destroy whatever arc Finn could have had.
 
Maybe, but at the same time the Chinese don't give a fuck about Star Wars (or masturbatory nostalgiafests) considering how badly the sequels did over there with a white female protagonist. So it really didn't matter. Sure Disney was TRYING super hard to pander to China, but it failed.
Again, you just answered it. They had a white FEMALE protagonist. Chinese aren't big on those either. They want manly men saving the day, fighting straightforward battles of good and evil. That's why Optimus Prime does so well there despite the Bayverse Transformers movies being guilty pleasures at best; they want a big male hero (preferably alien, Asian or White) coming in to save the day and kicking ass, making bad guys pay for their crimes.

So basically, if Disney wanted to sell Star Wars to the Chinese, they should've just made Kyle Katarn canon and adapted the events of the Dark Forces games into films. I can imagine Kyle Katarn scoring it big with Chinese audiences, especially when he fights complete bastards like Desann or Jerec, or he has a fight against a power-armored General Rom Mohc wearing a Dark Trooper suit. That's the kind of straightforward, eye-candy bullshit that would get the Chinese spraying money all over the place for Disney.
 
Again, you just answered it. They had a white FEMALE protagonist.
But they would RATHER have a white (female) than a black person as the lead, no matter the gender. You know the Chinese like white skin and white features over dark skin and facial features of Africans right? The sequels did badly because they're shit but also because unless you have a nostalgic attachment to the Star Wars franchise they don't make any sense. The CGI action scenes can only go so far.

Daisy Ridley looking like a Xenomorph still counts. And they already have a bootleg Kyle Katarn in Disney canon, his name is Cassian Andor.
 
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But they would RATHER have a white (female) than a black person as the lead, no matter the race. You know the Chinese like white skin and white features over dark skin and facial features of Africans right? The sequels did badly because they're shit but also because unless you have a nostalgic attachment to the Star Wars franchise they don't make any sense. The CGI action scenes can only go so far.
The Chinese would throw both of them away for a male action hero in an instant. A female lead has to be attractive for it to work with them, and Daisy Ridley does not.

Daisy Ridley looking like a Xenomorph still counts. And they already have a bootleg Kyle Katarn in Disney canon, his name is Cassian Andor.
But Cassian dies at Rogue One, and it's confirmed they'll only do one more season of Andor, so it's not like they can keep using him.
 
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If you follow the plotline of TFA, Finn and Han fit nearly the exact mold that Luke and Kenobi had in ANH
My problem is Han doesn't teach Rey or Finn anything meaningful. He just kind of chauffeurs them to where they need to go, tell them plot exposition, then dies. The movie says Han is the father Rey never had but I don't believe that because they don't have a relationship.

That and the role of the wise mentor obviously should have went to fucking Luke.
 
In TFA Finn hit nearly all the beats to be the everyman character going on an adventure and turning into a hero, aka the Luke Skywalker role... but 1) he's black and 2) the Force is female, so he ultimately served no purpose at all. Like Mr. Plinkett said about Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, Finn and Rey should have been merged into a single character called Finn
Finn being the Ex-Stormtrooper should have had focus that he was the leader whenever they were doing spywork shit. And for all I know they kinda did as they go into the military base in TFA and TLJ (still haven't watch Rise of Rey Palpatine).

All I can say for certain is that they failed in making him feel like a valuable party member, he came off like a sidekick. From my understanding Oscar Isaac's character was supposed to die in the opening and they changed it at the last minute because they liked Isaac so much. That was probably a reason why Finn's character didn't do much, also that the actor playing him was just not good. If anything Oscar Isaac should played Finn.
 
It sucks because, looking back at the EU I remember of, I really wished that they treated Luke similar to how he was written in Jedi Outcast.
Funnily enough, that's basically how he was written for the entirety of the post-Endor EU, give or take the lapses into self-doubt or grief that he'd give into in the wake of massive emotional obstacles that staggered him and the other heroes.

I think the great shake-up Luke as a character gets towards the end of the EU is the wry and warm sense of fatherhood he develops in his plotlines with Ben Skywalker, and the immense burden he feels as the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. For as powerful as he is, he won't be alive forever, and unease begins to haunt him about how the Jedi Order--and his son--will cope after he's gone.

It's funny, because as a kid, I was never that into Luke as a protagonist; but TLJ really showed me how much I took the qualities of his character for granted, and after reading the final two series of the post-Endor saga and seeing him be naturally molded into a mentor and father by the writers, it really made me appreciate his character.

The later EU got really bad about power levels. I read the first Fate of the Jedi before bailing on the novels for good, and in the opening chapters Jaina and company are literally flying through the air like superheroes.
When exactly does that happen? I read Fate of the Jedi: Outcast fairly recently, and I can't recall that scene ever happening. I vividly recall the insane fit that causes Valin Horn to go on a public rampage, but nothing with Jaina.

Like Mr. Plinkett said about Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, Finn and Rey should have been merged into a single character called Finn
Merging Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon was one of the stupidest "fixes" RLM ever came up with. Everything that makes Qui-Gon interesting lies in his eccentric rule-breaker attitude when it comes to both Jedi and conventional wisdom, which isn't in line with Obi-Wan's character at all, and would be destroyed in a character merge. It just goes to show that the loudest and most autistic people in the Star Wars fanbase often have the worst ideas, and I'm thoroughly relieved they were never listened to.

Where Fin is concerned, it's funny you mentioned that he should've been a merge of two characters---because he actually is a merge of two characters from a previous draft. You see, in Michael Ardnt's revision of Lucas' treatments, Ep. VII was going to open with the wily and reckless Sam Solo (shown below in a Stormtrooper disguise) getting tangled up in Imperial trouble, and getting freed by a burly, stoic black mercenary nicknamed John Doe in the script, with both of them staging an escape. Abrams and Kasdan ultimately decided to merge the goofy young character and the stoic merc character into one...and what we got, was Finn.

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What exactly was Finn's purpose in these movies? If he died in the very first scene would the story or any of the other characters have been effected at all? He's also a puss who got his ass repeatedly beat and only defeated Phasma by sucker punching her like he was back in the space ghetto.
Obviously just a diversity hire. And a false-flag for a subversion. They were trying to depict him as the leading man, the next Jedi in line, only for it to be Rey instead. Feminism and subversion in one go. "Oh, you think this guy will be the hero? SIKE! It's actually this chick!"

The Phantom Menace was the perfect speed and power level for the Jedi imo. They bragged about the lightsabers getting lighter for the sequels but the fight in ROTS just looks goofy because of how fast they're twirling everything with no real design to the fights. TWIRL TWIRL TWIRL.
I'd say yes and no. Yes, Phantom Menace got the Jedi right, and no, in ROTS, them twirling before that one strike was them winding up for a heavy blow, right before they tried to Force-push each other, but someone like Shadiversity actually studied the fight and saw that there was a lot of design going into most of the attacks:

The later EU got really bad about power levels. I read the first Fate of the Jedi before bailing on the novels for good, and in the opening chapters Jaina and company are literally flying through the air like superheroes.
I remember reading something about Force levitation getting really advanced in those post-OT years, but the books have a problem with Force power levels due to the fact that you have different authors writing books that have different views on the Force. Sometimes Jedi fight so fast that they're practically blurs (Revenge of the Sith novel) other times they're not so fast and some normie can take advantage of them. (Any book where Karen Traviss writes about the Jedi) It's usually fine if you're just reading a series of novels written by one author, because that keeps things consistent, but if you have a novel series written by multiple authors, then the power scaling will be a clusterfuck because each author insists on their view of the Force and their limits for a Jedi. This is what people in the business call "too many cooks in the kitchen."

It's no different from a comic series about a single superhero having varying power levels for the guy because each author has a different interpretation of their limits. Sometimes Superman can blow away a solar system with a sneeze, in other times, he gets punked by a low-level freak like Livewire. It's a problem that was all over 90s and early 2000s comics, and it wasn't that surprising to see it in Star Wars. It's a constant problem whenever you have different authors with clashing views on things within the story. Some want a more grounded, down-to-earth story where the hero isn't that strong, others want a power fantasy where the reader is awed by the hero's power. And of course, some authors hate the main hero characters and want to make them weak enough for another character to defeat.

Coincidentally, this is why works that do depict the Jedi as OP get a lot of flak from book-readers who have grown accustomed to Jedi being just mid-tier in their favorite works. Even though Vader made it clear in the first movie that there are Force powers that make blowing up a planet look like small potatoes, some readers just can't get over the idea of a Jedi or Sith being powerful enough to do things like pull down a warship from the sky or vaporize an entire fleet with their mind.

So having a work that puts its foot down and makes it clear that the Jedi or Sith can do such OP things pisses off more than a fair share of the fans, and vice versa. People who are fans of works with OP Jedi and Sith slam their heads on their desks when they watch TCW and the characters casually forget that they can use the Force to save the day, or when they read some book where the Jedi are severely underpowered when compared to some of the other comics, books, or games where they're downright at the level of superheroes.
 
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Where Fin is concerned, it's funny you mentioned that he should've been a merge of two characters---because he actually is a merge of two characters from a previous draft. You see, in Michael Ardnt's revision of Lucas' treatments, Ep. VII was going to open with the wily and reckless Sam Solo (shown below in a Stormtrooper disguise) getting tangled up in Imperial trouble, and getting freed by a burly, stoic black mercenary nicknamed John Doe in the script, with both of them staging an escape. Abrams and Kasdan ultimately decided to merge the goofy young character and the stoic merc character into one...and what we got, was Finn.
I thought Sam and John Doe were just the pre-bastardized versions of Finn and Poe in the final movie. John helps Sam (a former Stormtrooper) defect from the Neo Empire the same way Poe helps Finn leave the Fail Order in TFA. IIRC Sam was never confirmed to be a Solo child, just a Han Solo-esque character as far as I know.
It's funny, because as a kid, I was never that into Luke as a protagonist; but TLJ really showed me how much I took the qualities of his character for granted, and after reading the final two series of the post-Endor saga and seeing him be naturally molded into a mentor and father by the writers, it really made me appreciate his character.
This is me 100%. Growing up Luke was never my favorite SW character. But after watching the OT for the first time in years before TFA came out I really started to appreciate his character and his arc of turning into a Jedi. That's why the sequels feel like such a slap in the face. Luke was a mcguffin in TFA with one entire scene and no dialogue, then he was such an unbearable asshole in TLJ, and by TROS I couldn't care less.

When sequel simps would say "oh you just wanted him to be a perfect Mary Sue!" or "you can't shit on Rey's acting because Mark Hamill's acting was bad too!" I then realized they never liked Star Wars in the first place.
 
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I thought Sam and John Doe were just the pre-bastardized versions of Finn and Poe in the final movie. John helps Sam (a former Stormtrooper) defect from the Neo Empire the same way Poe helps Finn leave the Fail Order in TFA. IIRC Sam was never confirmed to be a Solo child, just a Han Solo-esque character as far as I know.
For all I know, you could be right about John Doe just being folded into Poe, but given how his ethnicity and character personality didn't carry over to Poe, who knows.

I've read multiple times that Sam was in fact supposed to be a Solo. Apparently a big part of his character was going to be him having an inferiority complex with being Han Solo's son, and having to live up to the namesake. He was even stylized to have visual similarities to Han in all of his concept art appearances with Kira.

But whether he retained his Solo lineage or not, his planned character trajectory about falling to the Dark Side under Darth Talon's hold, and Kira spending the trilogy desperately trying to pull him back, sounds infinitely better than what we got.

This is me 100%. Growing up Luke was never my favorite SW character. But after watching the OT for the first time in years before TFA came out I really started to appreciate his character and his arc of turning into a Jedi. That's why the sequels feel like such a slap in the face. Luke was a mcguffin in TFA with one entire scene and no dialogue, then he was such an unbearable asshole in TLJ, and by TROS I couldn't care less.
You don't know what you've got till it's gone. As a kid, I always used to pass over characters like Luke because to my insecure, pre-formed mind, traits like altruism and pure-heartedness were uncool and lame, and nowhere as alluring as all the edgy anti-hero types in fiction.

But as time has gone on, I've really gravitated more towards those "boy scout" characters in fiction, like Luke Skywalker, Steve Rogers, Clark Kent and even King Arthur. Good men struggling to be better than they can be, to treat the world better than the world's treated them. To be that kind of person, and not become jaded and cynical like so many of us would be when faced with the same obstacles, is what make these kinds of characters admirable, and refreshing.

And that's what makes Luke's adventures in the EU so rewarding, because you can see Luke use these traits to help and inspire people around him. The day he's forced to depart into a shameful, forced exile by the government in FOTJ, and he's at the temple gates to disembark, there's a horde of characters--Jedi and non-Jedi alike--swarming him, teary-eyed, because they can't repay all the ways he's helped them. How he pulled all of them from a dark place, taught them and united them all together. One even character tells him: "Look around, Master Skywalker. This is your legacy." It's why in spite of all the ST's desperate attempts to "deconstruct" Luke, they failed to understand why a new Jedi Order led by him would be such a big deal, and a grand departure from the Jedi of old.

Because even the thankless authors writing the EU recognized that Luke's greatest accomplishment wasn't being the leading force of a New Jedi Order, but being its heart. That's why the books, despite lacking the money and star-power of the new films, feel like a truer continuation of his journey.
 
This is me 100%. Growing up Luke was never my favorite SW character. But after watching the OT for the first time in years before TFA came out I really started to appreciate his character and his arc of turning into a Jedi. That's why the sequels feel like such a slap in the face. Luke was a mcguffin in TFA with one entire scene and no dialogue, then he was such an unbearable asshole in TLJ, and by TROS I couldn't care less.
Everything great about Luke can be summed up in the ROTJ scene where he has the chance to kill Vader without any obstacles to stop him and chooses not to. That's a hero, that's a role model. ST-Luke is just a quipping asshole who barely even feels like a cynical version of the character. The galaxy's in danger and he acts like a flippant douche because of one lost padawan and a school? You literally watched Vader kill Obi-Wan in front of you and bounced back from it. Luke Skywalker is an optimist at heart, that's part of why he's so endearing (even if he can dish out banter towards the likes of C-3PO etc.) and I know people behind the camera understand this because they were able to capture a glimpse of that, however brief, when he rescued Mando and the others from the Dark Troopers. Pure confidence, no hesitation. No MCU-tier dialogue when he comes through the door, just a serene calmness.

I'm not nearly as critical as some of you are towards Disney Wars, but that's only because I'd be repeating what others have said better already. I get it, and it sucks.
 
Maybe, but at the same time the Chinese don't give a fuck about Star Wars (or masturbatory nostalgiafests) considering how badly the sequels did over there with a white female protagonist. So it really didn't matter. Sure Disney was TRYING super hard to pander to China, but it failed.
Disney-pandering failed the moment they casted a Vietnamese as the token Asian and tried to ship her with black comic relief. To top it all off, she was single-handedly the most useless character in TLJ, cucking Finn out of what would have been a badass moment. Almost deliberately calculated to piss off the average Chinese, as it were. (Didn't help they killed off her good looking "sister" in the first five minutes of the movie.)
 
in spite of all the ST's desperate attempts to "deconstruct" Luke, they failed to understand why a new Jedi Order led by him would be such a big deal, and a grand departure from the Jedi of old.
Disney's belief that Luke would make the exact same mistakes the old Jedi Order did and lead the galaxy to ruin is so baffling to me, but it makes sense. Rey Skywalker must be the one to kill Palpatine and revive the Jedi Order according to Disney.
Disney-pandering failed the moment they casted a Vietnamese as the token Asian and tried to ship her with black comic relief. To top it all off, she was single-handedly the most useless character in TLJ, cucking Finn out of what would have been a badass moment. Almost deliberately calculated to piss off the average Chinese, as it were. (Didn't help they killed off her good looking "sister" in the first five minutes of the movie.)
Rian's yellow fever got the best of him. He couldn't hire an attractive Chinese actress, he HAD to have one who looked like the kind of girl he wanted to date in high school. The ones that weren't frumpy were out of his league.
 
It's clearly an ideological trench that the studios chose to dig and defend to the last man. On paper Disney should be printing tons of money every quarter with Marvel and Star Wars, but they insist doing everything they can to screw it up to the point where it has to be intentional.

With Star Wars the problem is obvious and always has been that Disney got ahold of the franchise and went into full panic mode to produce something, anything that would make money. They had no plan and exercised zero restraint with a brand worth forty bajillion dollars. Disney came together in a board room and ok'd killing three of the franchise's more iconic characters in exchange for Finn who made Jar Jar Binks look dignified, a bitchfaced Kiera Knightley Lite, and Darth Incel. They just shotgunned whatever written-by-committee pitches came to them and produced five or more absolute bombs. They made some money but torched the IP.

In all of the recent Star Wars and Disney-Marvel stuff, the lead male characters are at best weaklings who have to struggle to figure out what to do, or rather which woman's orders they should be following. Even the Mandalorian had to ask a woman if he was allowed to hang with his old friends. At worst the male characters are irrelevant sidekicks whose existence makes no difference to the story. This seems to be the way the Disney people want it, or else they'd give their creative teams the axe. As for "strong female protaganists", they tend to be girlbosses who can do anything and spend the length of movies going from point A to point B with only the mildest, easily defeated obstacles to get past. Even if the audience doesn't know why this is shit, they know, they sense on an instinctual level that it's shit.
 
In my opinion, Return of the Jedi is easily the most emotional Star Wars film and a great conclusion to the six film saga because of Luke.

These scenes really establish Luke as a role model to millions of people around the world. Everyone thought he was idiot for believing he could redeem Anakin to see the error of his way. You can feel the emotions he and Anakin are going through in these moments.

This is the real Luke Skywalker. A compassionate, brave, caring, and determined Jedi who will do what he believes is right for the Galaxy and for his friends.
 
So I picked up SW Bounty Hunter on a whim this weekend, it's something I've wanted to play for years and just never gotten to.

God damn is it nice to actually consume some media that feels like actual SW and not shit with Jon Williams music pasted on top.

Sure it's a bit janky given that it's from the PS2/GC era but the gameplay is *fun*, Jango feels like a badass - especially after he gets his jetpack, and it just feels like they actually cared about putting out something of quality.

Though I'll admit hearing Tress MCNeille's voice (who does Simpsons voices) kind of takes me out of it a bit. Does make me chuckle a bit when I picture Simpsons characters in her place.
 
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