Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

This is obviously a stupid question, given that the Ukrainians seem to actually have fairly good op-sec, but the only things I've seen in the last few days are "Ukrainians dying in the thousands due to mass artillery etc" which are vaguely believable but are clearly coming from Russian cope sources, but do we have any literally the smallest idea of what is going on with this attack? Locations and level of success? Even just something on the level of are they gaining small but costly victories, or are they now the ones blundering into minefields.
 
Has there been any discussion of providing HARM missiles for SEAD/DEAD or do the Russian TTPs effectively counter any of our HARM armaments?

I seem to recall something about the Russians just flicking on the radar intermittently so that they're less detectable.
Yes and no.
Older model HARMs can be fooled by turning the radar off - but at the cost of the radar not working as well.
Newer model HARMs can still use GPS guidance to basically become a supersonic cruise missile if they lose passive-radar lock and basically navigate to the last known position of the radar source - which can be mitigated by moving.

The newest model (AGM-88E AARGM) can basically turn into a borderline fire-and-forget homing missile if it gets close enough to the target, but Ukraine is definitely not getting these any time soon.

Its hard to asses the effectiveness of HARM in this war, though. Historically, half the value in ARMs was defensive, in that if you can get the SAM to shut of his radar to save his own ass, you therefore save yourself from getting hit by the SAM.
But Ukraine isn't exactly flying deep-strikes over Russian territory like US/NATO forces have in the past, so its really hard to say.

This is obviously a stupid question, given that the Ukrainians seem to actually have fairly good op-sec, but the only things I've seen in the last few days are "Ukrainians dying in the thousands due to mass artillery etc" which are vaguely believable but are clearly coming from Russian cope sources, but do we have any literally the smallest idea of what is going on with this attack? Locations and level of success? Even just something on the level of are they gaining small but costly victories, or are they now the ones blundering into minefields.
Short answer: We don't know, and its a bit too early to expect to know.

Ukrainian forces are no doubt taking casualties, but whether or not this is the climactic culmination of their push or just shaping operations and probing attacks has yet to be seen.
 
a bunch of a certain model of the M-1 tank
M1A1s are what's being sent. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd believe the A2s gets continually upgraded with each System Enhancement Package which is probably why they're not the ones being sent.
This is obviously a stupid question, given that the Ukrainians seem to actually have fairly good op-sec, but the only things I've seen in the last few days are "Ukrainians dying in the thousands due to mass artillery etc" which are vaguely believable but are clearly coming from Russian cope sources, but do we have any literally the smallest idea of what is going on with this attack? Locations and level of success? Even just something on the level of are they gaining small but costly victories, or are they now the ones blundering into minefields.
Wasn't that the same thing they were saying during Kherson? I wouldn't believe anything from any side until the smoke settles.
 
Yes, normally it's both sides claiming total victory with wunderwaffen and mass death on the opposite side, and reality is somewhere in between. With the ukies silent you lose that dynamic.
What we do know is that the ukes have been active with their new toys, such as leo tanks, behind what was the front line. Especially in the south. The russians blew up an Iris-T radar installation which seems to have been placed pretty close to the front line too. The big push toward the sea to break the land connection (or at least rail) to Kherson seems to be a big priority for now.

What we don't know is if there was meaningful and lasting progress or if the ruskis just blew them up like bugs as they say.
 
Most ziggers aren't aware that the Ukrainian population has a higher percentage of Christians, partially because, unlike Russia, Ukraine has freedom of religion, so Protestants and Catholics are free to proselytize there. In Russia everything that is not officially a state religion gets oppressed, and the only Christian denomination that is legal is the caesaropapist death cult they call the Moscow Patriarchate (Muslims are specifically protected too). The poor Moscow Orthodog priests that get "oppressed" in Ukraine only administer to some 4% of the population.
Zigger grifters forget to mention that these Moscow dogs actively work to sus out and report orthodox priests in occupied Ukraine who don't concede ultimate authority in spiritual matters to the Kremlin, while their Russian government comrades burn and loot churches and torture priests. They also used their properties in free Ukraine as safe houses and weapon stores for Russian agents, and directly infiltrate FSB agents as priests, and those activities are why the Ukrainian government is cracking down on them, not because Ukraine is ruled by Satanists who hate Jesus.

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I believe there is statistic about that (prior to the Kyiv Patriarchate gaining particular traction post invasion, something which is not a persecution as shills claim, in fact the wreckers of Orthodox churches are as you say Russians via infantry, artillery and rockers) the biggest population of active Orthodox souls under the Moscow Patriarchate was not in Russia, but in Ukraine. Now not so much as in c. 8% of Ukrainians now only identify with the Moscow Patriarchate UOC. Thanks to his master's war the priest Gundyayev / Patriarch Kirill / Agent Michailov has lost most of his believers. Getting an ikon of the Trinity from a museum against the wishes of conservators won't help him or Putin. Now I've seen that ROCOR (not really a proxy for Moscow despite Putin's strop over a ROCOR church in the West Bank) has been taking control of a few American Orthodox parishes, but although the social media Ortho bros are as brash as ever, it's likely given how toxic Russia has become, that people seeking Orthodoxy will resort to the many other jurisdictions.

Commander Anders Puck Nielsen tries to puzzle out if there's any military purpose to destroying the dam for Russia and cannot find it:


The construction of a new hydroelectric power plant (HPP) on the site of the Kakhovka hydroelectric power plant destroyed by the Russian invaders will cost at least EUR 1 billion, Head of PJSC Ukrhydroenergo Ihor Syrota has said.

"To build such a plant, today, you need at least EUR 800 million. We are talking about the plant, the bridge crossing, and the railway tracks. The locking system was also damaged. That is, we were talking about the whole infrastructure, and in general, it is not less than EUR 1 billion. But the most important thing is that it takes time to restore everything: at least five years," Syrota said in an interview with DW.

At the same time, he said that after the de-occupation, the Kakhovka reservoir will be blocked to restore the required water level, and the construction of a new hydroelectric power plant will begin at the same place.

He also commented, in particular, on the situation at the ZNPP, noting that for a month or two, the destruction of the Kakhovka HPP would not be of critical importance for this nuclear power plant since its own reservoirs, which it has to cool the reactors, will be enough for this period. At the same time, if there is no water in the Kakhovka reservoir for a long time, the water level in the ZNPP coolers will begin to decrease. One cannot exclude the possibility that the Russian occupiers would lift the shutters of these coolers.
Interfax UA

Greta Thunberg calls for Russia to be punished for ecocide in Ukraine
OLENA ROSHCHINA — THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2023, 23:38


Greta Thunberg calls for Russia to be punished for ecocide in Ukraine
Prominent Swedish environmental activist Greta Thunberg has said that Russia has committed ecocide in southern Ukraine and must be punished for it.

Source: Greta Thunberg on Twitter

Quote: "This ecocide as a continuation of Russia's unprovoked full-scale invasion of Ukraine is yet another atrocity which leaves the world lost for words. Our eyes are once again on Russia who must be held accountable for their crimes."


Details: Her call for action appeared on the third day after the Russian military blew up the Kakhovka hydroelectric power station, destroying its turbine hall and dam, which has led to the flooding of the left and right banks of the Dnipro in Kherson Oblast, the draining of the Kakhovka Reservoir, loss of life among people and animals, and the loss of cultural heritage.

Thunberg released her statement after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy called on more than 60 international political and public figures, including the young Swedish eco-activist, to punish Russia for ecocide.
Ukrainska Pravda
 
I doubt even that video The Russians putting out showing Leo's getting shelled resulted in permanent damage to more then one or two. If they had been wholesale slaughtering them you know they would have more then one video out. People need to set realistic expectations. We are gonna see western tanks and stuff get wrecked. The Russian Army for all its fault is still in a strong defensive position. Ukraine is not going to get its way every time.
 
probably for the same reason as most other putin fans in the west
>hmm these leftoids who hate me spent the last 10 years declaring putin their greatest enemy
>enemy of my enemy is my friend
>based putin is my friend wtf i love russia now

the only alternative would be that he's paid off by russia, but frankly i believe that a gigantic network like fox news is too big and too expensive for russia to bribe like that
I think centrist liberal at CNN and despiser of Trump, Tucker Carlson just decided that 'rebel contrarian' was a great brand. He likely shares witty jokes with Don Lemon at the smarter DC parties where only important people are invited.
 
Has there been any discussion of providing HARM missiles for SEAD/DEAD or do the Russian TTPs effectively counter any of our HARM armaments?

I seem to recall something about the Russians just flicking on the radar intermittently so that they're less detectable.

@East_Clintwood and @Fanatical Pragmatist covered it pretty well:
Ukraine has jury-rigged HARMs to their MiG-29s, and Russians have had to adapt tactics such as cycling & moving RADARs. This degrades response but also makes it much harder for HARMs to lock on. The Russians have also, IIRC, switched to (over simplified) using CAP to provide first-warning detection of Ukrainian take offs, meaning that minus satellite or other intelligence data, the Ukrainians don't know where the SAM RADARs are at mission start. The planes in the combat zone then usually get R-50'd in short order while the SAM RADARs flip on, forcing them to drop where the HARM won't have much range while having to dodge either R-50s at low altitude or 55V5's if they try to go up.

Switching RADARs on and off is very costly for Russia air defense; for the S-300 you can't just hot-swap to a new RADAR installation; the S-400 allows this iirc but not the S-300. Russia compensates by (essentially) just deploying double (or triple) coverage with S-300s. This is not very efficient, but Russia has the spare systems to throw at the problem.
See: Previous posts about the sheer size of Russian stock piles + the ability of Russia to concentrate their SAM platforms with the US no longer having a 'southern approach'.

Or I guess tl;dr to answer the implied question:
F-16s (or F-18s, or J-39s) would be much more effective with HARMs than ukraine's MiGs, but Russian tactics have made that somewhat moot unless Ukraine's airforce gets a big injection of airframes such that they maintain a combat air presence so SAM pulsing won't work. The existence of S-400 (specifically the range of the missiles and RADAR) makes that difficult.
 
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Greta Thunberg calls for Russia to be punished for ecocide in Ukraine
worst-person.jpg
 
So... (at this moment)
About 42K people flooded, displaced, many left to rot on the roof of their houses without anyone coming to the rescue.
Drinking water, healthcare, sanitation - gone.
Predicted 70% decrease in Ukrainian agricultural output; grain prices already starting to explode, while bread is already sometimes 3 times the price it had before the war in the area
Get a good bread machine and plenty of ingredients. Raw flour and dry yeast packets/jars will last for YEARS. So will add-ins like caraway seeds for rye bread or cinnamon-sugar for sweet swirl-bread. Read the damn instruction book - recipes are often contingent on following each step in the order listed.

Be aware: homemade won't have the added preservatives of commercial stuff; tightly bag and stick it in the fridge when you're not eating it and check for mold spots before you do.

We already went this route because store loaves were pushing $6 a piece unless they were on 'sale' for about $4. Just getting bread for sandwiches and breakfast toast was killing our grocery budget. I cannot imagine the situation will get better anytime soon - as in the next decade - with the upcoming grain shortage.
 
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Believe by the time this thing is over Ukraine will have a bunch of older-model F-16s and a bunch of a certain model of the M-1 tank.
Those older built F-16s have been getting rebuilt and zero hour to latest model currently in use. So barring any tech Uncle Sam and Euros may not want to risk, Ukrainian Air Force won't be getting unmodified worned out F-16s.
 
Don't tell me Tucker actually believes Russia cares about the people of Kherson on their side of the Dnieper... :story:
Trucker is on "War in Ukraine is a globalist ploy" crowd, he ignored the fact Russia let mobiks drown when the dam burst, flooded drenches, ruined supplies, no fresh water and worst or all vodka.

Russia is a society that hasn't cared about value of human lives since Mongols fucked off and tzar rule took over.

Tucker is all too happy to ignore what happened in USSR, over 25 million dead, ethnic cleansings then some.

Ironically it's Ukraine who send both food and water to stranded people on roofs on their own homes.

Russians proved over again how they do not value human life, over and over again why they should start caring now?

I wouldn't trust a guy who white knighted hunter biden and called him a good person.
TV hosts, not even once.
 
Based on what Open Source reports are coming out, I think Ukraine has two objectives for this campaign. Pushing Russia back out of Bakhmut, and recapturing Mariople. Which makes sense, as achieving both would essentially reverse two of Russias biggest wins in the war and be an absolute body blow to homefront morale.

If they achieve both, they could put Putin into a position where they can demand status quo ante bellum, which would be a big win for Ukraine but allow Putin to keep Donbabwe and Crimea.

I think Ukraine may hope Putin refuses the offer however, which would then legitimize Ukraines effort to push for complete victory, with the recapture of Crimea and all of the Donbas. It all hinges on whether or not Ukraine can get to where it needs to go though.
 
I watched a few videos and it seems like Russia may have blown the damn. But not for any James Bond villain reasons involving the NPP plant. They did it because of the Ukrainian offensive. It was a strategic move. Probably not the best. But it seems like it was made under stress and kind of a panic. Probably not the most well thought out plan ever. Also the IAEA says they aren't too concerned over the NPP. There is a second source of water it can use for coolant.



As a bonus it seems Zeihan ran into some vatniggers on Twitter. It's pretty cringey that he is ragging on Elon Musk and blaming him for the vatniggers. Also equally cringey that he calls the vatniggers Russian bots and trolls then claims the Russians are paying some people to troll for them.

 
Based on what Open Source reports are coming out, I think Ukraine has two objectives for this campaign. Pushing Russia back out of Bakhmut, and recapturing Mariople. Which makes sense, as achieving both would essentially reverse two of Russias biggest wins in the war and be an absolute body blow to homefront morale.

Bahkmut isn't just a PR move but would keep Russia's attentions focused for the next 9 months.

Mariupol is different situation; I haven't tried to sort through the intelligence but I had heard Melitopol was a more likely candidate. Minus a Kharkiv like rollup, Mariupol is probably a bridge (or three) too far for this year. Hell, Melitopol might be too ambitious. but the key thing is that those are obvious targets because if Ukraine can take them, or even get close, they will have effectively cut off Crimea. The only supply line to Crimea would be naval or a single bridge. Someone has already struck the bridge, so that likely wouldn't last. And the BSF has been proven vulnerable to cruise missiles, UAVs & USVs, and sabotage. They have the tonnage capability to keep Crimea supplied (Crimea might not have the capacity to offload that tonnage quickly enough) but they may not be able to provide the security required to make that happen.
Russia could try airlift, but that has not been the Soviet's strong suite, plus big transport aircraft would make inviting targets.

Anyway, if a M*pol push is in the cards, it'd make Bahkmut more strategically important. That is, taking either of those cities cuts off Crimea; Ukraine at that point wouldn't need to invade Crimea, they could simply let it wither. Which means the Russian response will have to be a do-or-die attack to dislodge Ukraine and push them far enough back to get Rail connectivity to Crimea restored. If Ukraine can also take a strategic point they could conceivably make a push from deep into Russian lines, that will be mean Russia could not full commit on its counter attack - they moved everything south to save Crimea, Ukraine might be able to push the lines to the north.
That area doesn't need to be Bahkmut, but it fits the bill and has brand-name traction.

Are there viable options to cut off Bakhmut instead of attacking it directly?
Sort of, but both would be more costly than taking Bakhmut. You could encircle, but your pincers would be exposed and require taking lots of territory currently held by Russia. You could take artillery areas and turn Bahkmut into an attrition hell to hold.

I watched a few videos and it seems like Russia may have blown the damn. But not for any James Bond villain reasons involving the NPP plant. They did it because of the Ukrainian offensive. It was a strategic move. Probably not the best. But it seems like it was made under stress and kind of a panic. Probably not the most well thought out plan ever. Also the IAEA says they aren't too concerned over the NPP. There is a second source of water it can use for coolant.

Like I said before, they blew the dam to prevent any possibility of Ukraine doing a Dneiper crossing. The flooding and return to marsh of a lot of the terrain means Russia does not need to worry about having to race troops to reinforce the low-quality 'guard' troops there in the immediate future. They are trading any hope of pushing back into Kherson for a shorter front.
Its clear Russia had the damn rigged to blow if needed, its almost assured these charges are what took out the dam, the only question is if someone set them off intentionally and if so, did they do so because of orders or panic.

The downside to Russia for blowing the dam, as I've seen wonkinated, is that part of the reason Ukraine had not seriously planned a Dnieper crossing was the possibility of just this scenario: Russia blows the damn to flood out a break through. If Ukraine did cross, any troops would need to leave the flood zone in a big hurry, and any troops not pulled back would be cut off on boggy ground.
(also Russia would have a decent case for "military necessity" for exploding the dam in any reparations trials if it was done in response to a push.)
Now that Russia has blown the dam, if Ukraine can identify a good bridgehead, they don't need to be concerned about Russia trying to flood out an advance.
 
@Ghostse Zeihan says the Ukrainian offensive has begun I would say it was planned and done so by orders. If the offensive is happening now then blowing the dam and flooding the Ukrainians planned crossing points would make sense. The effects of the flooding would still be going on. Zeihan and other people said even after the water is gone the areas downstream where the Ukrainians wanted to cross would be turned to mud and they would stay that way for weeks. It's looking like Russia did it.

 
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