General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

TRAZkek said:
Okay, I’ve been browsing trans articles (pro and anti) for a long time, and I wanna air out my opinions, beliefs, and whatnots so I can get honest criticisms/responses/new information. You’re supposed to look from all angles, you know?
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Like @Ultrapenguin , I mostly agree with you but I think that there's a whole lot more. We talk a lot about Blanchard's typology which breaks the trans population into two populations, but that was created in a very different time where the trans population almost exclusively consisted of people who had received hard-to-get diagnoses from gatekeeping specialists. Now people who would have just occasionally had an errant thought about, "what if I were a man/woman?" or "I wish I were someone else completely different" or "wouldn't that freak the squares out?" have begun actually identifying as trans with the help of negligent doctors.

TRAZkek said:
I believe there are SOME people who truly do not identify with their birth gender, and have either developed to identify more as the opposite gender, or for some non-understood biological reason they feel disconnected mentally from the sex/gender/whatever
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This is where I disagree with you. You don't biologically know that you're a man or woman, it's something that you learn. I don't biologically have a compulsion to wear t-shirts and jeans, these are the clothes that I have access to and which I am socially expected to wear, but if I lived in a society where men wore sun dresses I would wear those without even thinking. I don't biologically feel drawn to he/him pronouns, those are just the pronouns that are used for me because anything else would be confusing. If I lived in some sort of freaky society where I was expected to use bizarre pronouns like "él" I would have not even think of complaining that I needed to use he/him pronouns.

There has never been a good explanation given for the biological or evolutionary origins of gender identities. Why would human beings evolve a part of our brain dedicated to telling us what gender we should be? No other animals seem to have this, it doesn't help us survive as individuals or as a community (even if we accept that gender roles serve a beneficial purpose they are clearly capable of being enforced through other methods as they are in other animals). The only time that gender identity is notable is the 0.1-1% of the population where it apparently goes wrong.

A lot of trans people talk about their genitals not matching their body map, but body maps seem to be learned and not completely innate. If a trans identified male/female person did actually have a female/male brain then we should expect there to be more of an effect than just being dissatisfied with their body. Mind-body dualism is an outdated view of human existence, it's obvious that your body affects your mind, but it's also known that your mind affects your body, including regulation of some hormones. So are we to believe that a trans-identifying male has a male pituitary gland in a female brain in a male body? Like some sort of counter-enclave? It's absolutely absurd and unbelievable.

The only feasible way to justify the claim that transness has biological causes is to say that some people biologically have brain imbalances that make them think that something is wrong and some of them happen to latch onto their gender, but there is no biological cause for the gender component.
 
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Ultrapenguin said:
there is no such thing as more or less "real" transexual because biological transexuality is not a valid concept,
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Yeah, this actually true for humanity; but certain species of aquatic wildlife automatically switch their sex under an certain set of environmental conditions. But I've yet to seen an retard actually bring this point up, however; usually it's certain species of animals are actually gay and that thing with hyenas in regards with defending gay rights or something.
 
They like to claim they "feel" like the other gender, despite having no frame of reference. They complain about the gender binary just being something society created, but whenever someone does transition they adhere to this horrible oppressive binary as much as possible. Then you can also just not have a gender because apparently it doesn't really exist, which means none of this should even matter. And if gender doesn't exist and there's no difference between anyone, then why even have men and women and all these pronouns at all? So many contradictions that are conveniently ignored.
 
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Surfin Terf said:
There has never been a good explanation given for the biological or evolutionary origins of gender identities.
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There are a lot of unknowns in neurosciences, in some ways it is still in its infancy. Evolutionary speaking, knowing which person can put a child in me is a pretty important aspect of evolution as without reproduction evolution wouldn't exist. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the logic behind the stance, I do agree that gender dysphoria is a mutations, illness, or some other form of mental disorder and should be treated as such not to mention studied. The prohibition of "taboo" medical subjects and studies are stunting understanding.

Surfin Terf said:
Why would human beings evolve a part of our brain dedicated to telling us what gender we should be?
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I did misunderstand.

I don't think there is a dedicated network of neurons specifically for this or maybe there is. I do know that humans like patterns, they like tribes, and they learn through observation. This person also has an appendage dangling between their legs, I must be like that one, this person doesn't have it but I really want to stick my dick in them. Automatically, that is an identity, it established the binary relationship between two nebulous beings and their spot in the biological chain. Lets call them Post and Sockets. Posts watch other Posts doing things and perhaps one of the Posts finds they do not enjoy what they do and find Sockets' activities more appealing. There is nothing wrong with that. However, it goes awry when Post starts to develop an unconscious, long term memory otherwise a specific path of neurons that aren't rebuilt. Couple this with the fact that Post and Socket's brains continue to grow after birth which could lead to what we know now as Gender Dysphoria; not to mention the concept of Gender and everything that comes with it.
 
okay, I'm not sure why its not letting me reply to your comment but this is for Surfin Terf:

I hear your perspective and it interests me, but the angle I see it from stems from a different thought process- the mental unbalance IS what makes somebody trans. No matter how inane and ever changing gender roles are, it is impossible for anyone to deny that they exist. The idea of transgenderism exists outside of physical biology. I hear what your saying about brain and body reflecting each other, and in some cases for trans people this is true: consider intersex people. Women born with male sex organs (not inherently trans people in the “Men can be pregnant way!” But actual, biological intersex people) can have higher levels of testosterone, which sometimes can lead to them identifying as male. Now I understand that this is only the case for some trans people, and not all trannys are born intersex; but the ones who aren’t born intersex seem to have *some* sort of disconnect, even if it’s just mental. Personally, I believe being trans *is* a mental illness, and not every mentally ill 14 year old claiming to be trans is actually trans. If trans people feel more happy presenting as the opposite gender, I’ll fuckin let them. As long as they’re not raping kids.
 
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NerdShamer said:
Yeah, this actually true for humanity; but certain species of aquatic wildlife automatically switch their sex under an certain set of environmental conditions.
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Sex in mammals is a strict binary, there's only two with no middle ground, and an individual can't switch from one to the other.

Sex does get complicated in some other parts of the animal kingdom though, as you note.
NerdShamer said:
But I've yet to seen an retard actually bring this point up
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Oh troons bring this up a lot whenever someone points out that sex is binary. Technically you need to say "sex in mammals is binary", and if you don't, they bring up clownfish and snails and such.
TRAZkek said:
I hear what your saying about brain and body reflecting each other, and in some cases for trans people this is true: consider intersex people. Women born with male sex organs (not inherently trans people in the “Men can be pregnant way!” But actual, biological intersex people) can have higher levels of testosterone, which sometimes can lead to them identifying as male. Now I understand that this is only the case for some trans people, and not all trannys are born intersex; but the ones who aren’t born intersex seem to have *some* sort of disconnect, even if it’s just mental.
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Sex in mammals is a strict binary (as noted above).

The male of a mammalian species is the one that develops towards the production of small, mobile gametes (sperm). Now, this development can get interrupted or fucked up, but we can still clearly observe which direction the body was going. Like if a guy gets his nuts blown off in an accident, we can still observe that he has a male body and we can see how his body functioned before, and in which direction it was going to develop, which is male.

The female is the one that develops towards the production of larger, mobile gametes (ovum, egg cells). Same as above.

(To clarify our terminology: sex is male or female, is biological and has to do with reproductive roles; "gender" or "gender identity", to use the troon definitions, is man or woman. In troon theory, most men are male, but not all of them. So in troon theory, transmen are female men.)

The term "intersex" is somewhat archaic. No humans (and in fact, no mammals) are truly between the sexes. The term "intersex" is kind of a hold over from a more primitive time in medicine when we practiced bloodletting and cured people with astrology and shit like that. It's like how American Indian tribes aren't literally from India.

The modern term is DSD (disorder/difference of sexual development). All DSDs are sex specific. Only males get Kleinfelter syndrome and only females get Swyer syndrome, to name a couple.

Also, regardless of how people with DSDs are affected by their specific condition, they're not "less male" or "less female", and certainly not anywhere in between. A male with a smaller penis than average, whether due to a DSD or just genetics, isn't "less male", because sex is a binary. He simply has a disordered male body. We can still note that the Kleinfelter male is a male, just with a disorder.

There is no DSD where a female person has male genitalia.

Also there is no good evidence that people with DSDs have higher rates of gender dysphoria than the general public. As a population, they're the one group that I might be more sympathetic to for having gender identity confusion issues. But they don't.

In general, there doesn't seem to be good evidence that gender dysphoria has a biological origin at all.

It seems to be entirely psychological, like body dysmorphia. Body dysmorphia is the underlying diagnosis for eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia.

In both cases, someone has a deep seated discomfort with their body (whether their sexed body or they just think they're too fat) and it gives them a shitton of anxiety.

I'm not a shrink and I don't know what the best approach is. Maybe gender dysphoria is intractible in some people and HRT is truly the only solution for it. But I'm skeptical. And I also don't trust the modern medical establishment to gather up good evidence to make that argument. I don't think they even try talk therapy or anything like that nowadays as a first attempt. "The customer is always right" is basically the motto, and they might as well be prescribing diet pills to anorexics.
 
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There's a strange sort of pity that forms in my stomach whenever I think about the life of a trannie, does anybody else feel this way? From what I've gleamed by readings sources outside kiwifarms, seeing their own personal tragedies from reddit posts with TMI, combined with the statistics of their suicide rate, to the causes of trannydom (i.e. extreme porn addiction destroying their ability to sexually relate to anybody and/or sexual assault at a young age), I really feel as if though they're just too brittle to live. They can't overcome their trauma, no matter how much therapy they go to or pills they swallow. The whole thing is just a monstrous affair from its awful beginnings to its sorrowful end. I think the families that are torn apart are what get to me the most. I simply couldn't imagine feeling alright knowing that my father suddenly felt the need to wear a skirt and abandon the family he created. It makes my head spin that there are kids really going through this. I just can't bear to imagine how this is all going to play out in 30 years. It's all so tiresome.
 
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how does one deal with having semi-indirectly been the cause for a former friend's transition?

i'm only realizing what may have caused this now, but I and a small handful of people I used to regularly hang out with online often made jokes about one dude in the group who was sort of the "leader" (not really of the group as people, more of the group as it existed online)
he was the one handling who came in and out and such- a position that obviously didn't mean too much because it was like 7 people max (half of whom didn't speak very often) and we generally enjoyed each others' company- but it became a recurring joke that, since he had to use these responsibilities so rarely, he himself never actually did any of the administrating. it was an "alter ego" bent on breaking up the group and eventually taking over the world, supposed to be the exact opposite of him. Due to this, that alter ego ended up being an overly-violent, loud, narcissistic, skinny girl with an annoying speech inflection.

since a fair few of us were artists, it was only a matter of time until this girl was personified, and I was asked to come up with a character design for his birthday as a surprise gift
while I was bouncing around ideas with a couple other members (we tried to minimize any conflict of interest by making sure everyone agreed to the design and thought it'd be appropriate), I suggested making the girl over-the-top and anime because I thought it'd be funny
everyone agreed even though I can't draw anime for shit and that ended up showing in the final product

fast-forward a few years later (long after we'd lost contact) and I recently checked how my friends were doing elsewhere (social media, etc) due to a date coming up that was relevant to all of us
lo and behold, apparently the dude whom we were joking along with started getting into that alter-ego
by which I mean he went full-on "gender euphoria" mode after picking up drawing solely so that he could draw the shit out of this girl
checking his post history, he apparently started outright claiming he was her a few months back and now spends his time contemplating how "he looks like as a girl" and making "cutesy" comments about how he "keeps forgetting" he's trans
and apparently he's not only come out publicly but also been shitting up a legitimate woman's-only group that splintered off from that friend group as a joke, turning the joke group into his own personal shrine and driving the actual women there into constant conflict over gender identity and whether that should be a qualifier(/whether the dude should be allowed in regardless because a good third of the group thinks he's a total dick now)

I can't help but feel like this is my fault since I suggested the weeb aspect in the first place and was the origin of both the character design and all the art that sprouted from it as a result, even though I haven't talked to the dude in years
it seems like he's bordering on harassing some of the other dudes I hung out with over it since they're not as keen on his new behavior and idk I just want to do something about it
I'll probably just walk away since it isn't my immediate problem, it's just
idk
sucks seeing an old group fall apart over this shit, y'know? even if it's old enough that I'm pretty detached

so uh
how does one deal? :suffering:
 
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NerdShamer said:
Revel in the fact that you groomed an autist into thinking that he's an dainty little girl?
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no dude he was a cool autist
there's a reason we were friends at one point
he used to be different, was super chill
loved linguistics and geography
he's like the only reason I know pretty much every single flag in the world save for some principalities in lesser-known nations
now he hardly talks about that shit because he's too busy cooming to a bastardized version of himself and bothering other cool autists about how hot "he" looks :(
 
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Anonitolia said:
and apparently he's not only come out publicly but also been shitting up a legitimate woman's-only group that splintered off from that friend group as a joke, turning the joke group into his own personal shrine and driving the actual women there into constant conflict over gender identity and whether that should be a qualifier(/whether the dude should be allowed in regardless because a good third of the group thinks he's a total dick now)
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I wonder how many male autists go TiM because they can force women to accept them into their private spaces and social groups. If any woman says no, they are an evil TERF like JK Rowling and Hitler.


There's a meme about how trans has destroyed nerd culture like crack destroyed blacks, but the more I think about it, the more it's not funny. I used to work with nerds, hang out with nerds playing board games, even hang out with nerds online talking about nerd stuff. Now those have been taken over by trannies.
 
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A good tranny is a dead tranny....mostly in a mental and metaphorical sense. However, exceptions can be made for the worst of the worst.....
 
I was thinking while very high, I wonder if the feminization of men is a Western disease. I remember in the 80s to the 00's men in media were strong, powerful, idealic standards for men to be inspired to be. They were idols, not just movies but wrestling stars and what have you. Men were the physical representation of power and masculinity. With declining testosterone levels in men and the lack of modern idealistic male role models is perpetuating the male depression epidemic it is no wonder we are seeing an explosion of men who think they are women.

I also do think Culture is a stronger motivation than many think. I think culture is strong enough to influence biological evolution.
 
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Absurdist Laughter said:
I was thinking while very high, I wonder if the feminization of men is a Western disease. I remember in the 80s to the 00's men in media were strong, powerful, idealic standards for men to be inspired to be. They were idols, not just movies but wrestling stars and what have you. Men were the physical representation of power and masculinity. With declining testosterone levels in men and the lack of modern idealistic male role models is perpetuating the male depression epidemic it is no wonder we are seeing an explosion of men who think they are women.

I also do think Culture is a stronger motivation than many think. I think culture is strong enough to influence biological evolution.
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I don't think it's all that complicated.

No, culture isn't strong enough to influence biological evolution. What's happening isn't really evolution, so much as a minor health crisis.

The recent bout of low testosterone we're seeing doesn't have a complicated explanation. People are just eating like shit and not getting enough exercise. That is the primary cause of low testosterone.

Men in general aren't becoming more girly or anything like that. They're just out of shape, dumpy losers.

Troons are a tiny fraction of the population and are mostly unrelated to the testosterone problem (which again, is really just a general health crisis).

BTW there are plenty of masculine male cultural figures. John Wick is one example, but you can find a million of them. Action movies are just as popular as they've always been, all the way back to the 80's and earlier.

You're overthinking things, I think.
 
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