What's your opinion on the "How does it affect you personally" argument?

RybenZ999

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Basically this
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This is something libertarians are often made fun of for. To quote a redditor from one of the less pozzed subreddits "The moral fabric of society is decaying and a libertarian individual asks a normal person "how does this personally (and immediately) affect you?"".

But at the same time, this is unironically something I kind of agree with. Despite all the posts I've made, in the end there isn't really anything I'm gonna do about the current culture is there? I'll just have to roll with it. "Kids can legally get sex change operations now? Parents can lose custody of their children if they don't affirm their gender? Oh well that sucks, but whatever. It's not like I'm a child or anyone's gonna force me to change my gender" Sounds almost sociopathic but yeah. If it doesn't affect me personally then whatever. What really gets me though, is when it evolves from from something I can ignore to something I can't. Like you can't go five minutes on the internet without seeing some gay trans 11 year old on a site that has nothing to do with that kinda stuff and when you complain the response you get is "OH QUEER PEOPLE EXISTING IS NOT POLITICAL"
 
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I think fundamentally it's a good starting point because you only have limited time to pay attention to things. But it can't be the end of the analysis, because as pointed out things could affect you down the line or in a worst case scenario bring the whole system down.

It doesn't help you or society if you are mad on the internet or real life over stuff that right now doesn't matter and fuck up your life over it because you don't pay enough attention to things that right now matter for you.
 
We live in a society.
Society being fucked up affects you.
This is just a dishonest way of them arguing, like the ‘yes but IF you could fly you could jump of a building right? Arguments that start ‘but IF you woke up tomorrow in the body of a woman…’ you can frame any question like that and force a yes.
Lots of things don’t affect me at all. That hideous man just found guilty of animal torture in Aus - doesn’t affect me personally. But it’s an abhorrent crime, and it affects others and society.
Flip it back on them. Ask them why something needs to affect me personally before I care. Look puzzled but eager for an answer. Adopt the stance that implies their argument is laughable and odd but you’re humouring them by asking. Never defend or apologise - that pits YOU on the back foot. You put THEM on the back foot by laughing at them and making them justify themselves.
 
Because "it" changes the moral boundaries and norms of society which will change how people act,such as doing thing they otherwise would not have done because the shame and stigma surrounding it dissappears.

If you think that things like drug legalization won't affect you in the long run then park your car in Skid Row (Los Angeles) and see how long it takes before it's broken into and a pair of junkies refurnish it into their new home.
 
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As my neighbor, you shitting outside the shitter doesn't affect me, true.
You shitting everywhere except the shitter to the point your home smells from down the block and has begun to attract pests does affect me.

You doing drugs doesn't affect by itself, sure.
You getting high as a kite and even higher with hard substances to the point you become a public nuisance definitely affects me.

You being a fag who takes it in the shitter doesn't affect me, ok.
Youth seeing your deviancy and exposing hedonism to children including my own will most definitely affect me and probably your internal organs after getting intimate with a baseball bat.

Get the picture?
 
I live in a relatively non-pozzed country, so it doesn't directly impact me very much yet. But ultimately I see it as gradual erosion of freedom of thought and reality itself. The party is waving five fingers in your face and forcing you to say, forcing you to believe it's four. It's inhumane.

Only a few years ago I would have said thoughts like that are just absolute right-winger nonsense, but now I really see it happening. Literal police forces assigned to go after wrongthink and enforce an alternate reality (like this news story from just yesterday: Police Scotland set up new unit to tackle 'hate crime' such as misgendering and denying men access to ladies' toilets).

And current year has been going on for long enough that there's now a whole generation growing up with it. Kids and teenagers who are taught to believe that failure to reject reality is a hate crime. The long-term implications of this are scary.
 
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This is something libertarians are often made fun of. To quote a redditor on one of the less pozzed subreddits "The moral fabric of society is decaying and a libertarian individual asks a normal person "how does this personally (and immediately) affect you?".
Should it? Just because something doesn't personally affect me, should I not care about the welfare of individuals and nature? Just like holding a door for the next person, just like returning the cart, just like putting your litter in the bin (and the rubbish on the floor too, abandoned by others). Charity is also something that doesn't require a personal benefit, yet people practice it. You don't have to be a Social Conservative, you can be a Libertarian who can, at the very least, see concern in society and the eventual effect on you and the people you know. The problem with that as well is you wouldn't even know if it will personally affect you in the immediate or later, and something doesn't have to affect you immediately but can be a nuisance.
But at the same time, this is unironically something I kind of agree with. Despite all the posts I've made, in the end there isn't really anything I'm gonna do about the current culture and just roll with it. "Kids can legally get sex change operations now? Parents can lose custody of their children if they don't affirm their gender? Oh well that sucks, but whatever. It's not like I'm a child or anyone's gonna force me to change my gender" Sounds almost sociopathic but yeah. If it doesn't affect me personally then whatever. What really gets me is when it evolves from from something I can ignore to something I can't. Like you can't go five minutes on the internet without seeing some gay trans 11 year old on a site that has nothing to do with that kinda stuff and when you complain the response you get is "OH QUEER EOPLE EXISTING IS NOT POLITICAL"
They're just using sophistical rhetorical devices used to convince people. They either play on emotions or they ask questions without the regard to seek the answer or find previous knowledge. Furthermore, they use simple, relatable analogues to convince people to their side, while trivializing their opponents. Like when they say something basic (as for example "Live Laugh Love") it's hard to debate against because of the lack of substance to criticize in the first place.

Specifically for the 'OH QUEER EOPLE EXISTING IS NOT POLITICAL' crowd, they usually argue that 'Personal is political' so there's an inconsistency there. But even so, you can also say that Serial Killers exist, and they should be able to exercise their presumed psychological desire to kill people as they do. There are examples more you can think of, especially from the slippery slope that's the LGBTIAP+ agenda movement; but in short it's just rhetorical.

That's my two cents.
 
Politics does affect you but you generally don't have any control over it so the best you can do is attempt to insulate yourself from the consequences. Lolbertarians are just coping with the sour grapes argument. Also if you actually want to succeed at political activism you have to abandon most of the ideas your middle class American lifestyle raised you with, they are incompatible with both reality and winning.
 
Ben Shapiro took it on well. A fat female nurse asked why he as a "well-off straight white religious man" should have an opinion on abortion. He basically said identity politics is irrelevant to the issue, and just like how whites who weren't effected by slavery still abolished it because it was a societal evil, so too should non-birthing people have a say on abortion.

He then went on with an example that was pretty funny. He said it's like if she's torturing puppies in her yard why should he care, go ahead, it doesn't effect him and he's not a woman in the healthcare field, just a "well-off straight white religious man" so his opinion shouldn't matter. Something evil is evil, and should be opposed.
 
It's a staggeringly smooth-brained take. People unironically parroting this "argument" are incapable of abstract thought or thinking a couple steps ahead in terms of cause and effect. Quite literally the type of people who get filtered by the "How would you feel if you hadn't had breakfast today?" question. FFS it's like asking how is a brick affected when the building it's part of gets demolished.
 
While the state of society obviously effects the people in it and the overall trajectory of that society, the societal decay we're currently experiencing is not the direct result of libertarianism, at least not as a political ideology.

I would argue it's the opposite. If anything, people who feel the need to autistically min-max society into their preferred left-wing or right-wing utopia are the ones causing all of the damage.
The die-hard leftists are the driving force of destruction and stupidity, but they wouldn't have as much traction/ammo with normalfags as they would without the spectre of the religious "Moral Majority"-style right.

The people who most have that irresponsibly lackadaisical "how does it effect you, live and let live, bro" attitude towards trannies and shit do so out of conditioned fear that the only alternative is (ironically) strict cultural authoritarianism, not out of genuine tolerance and acceptance.

Ultimately, the government should be promoting neither. I think it's a side effect of the civil rights movement in the US that people see the organization that's in charge of infrastructure, law, military, etc, as somehow having a responsibility to police culture.

A culture in of itself having morals and standards irrespective of the law is an entirely different thing and is completely acceptable, and outside of the modern West, that's always been the case. My personal opinion is that we as a society just need to recognize that and try to "stop the bleeding" so to speak, rather than focusing on trying to "put the the genie back in the bottle" all at once.
 
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I don't care if it effects me or not, you shouldn't be able to be a degenerate. You shouldn't be able to kill your own baby in the womb. You shouldn't be able to spread sodomy and chaos everywhere you go. Even if nobody knew about it, things that people defend in this way are still an afront to the sanctity and inherent dignity of humanity. People should not be socially or legally comfortable acting in philosophically immoral ways.
 
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I think that for some things, people are too "tuned in" to what's going on a world away. I feel like most of the time even "national news" hardly is ever actually that big of a deal to 99% of people who make it a big deal. It's a mentality thing. I think that part of the problem that's led to things being so bad is that people aren't really clued in with what's going on around them in an immediate surrounding sense. Take, for example, politics. In real-life impact, day-to-day life that is, that affects you directly your local town council and whatever has far more direct and actual impact than the national government, but almost no one gives a shit about local politics and is instead tuned in to the greater narrative war which in reality only affects them in intangible ways.

This sort of thing leads to the degradation of the local mindset, a disconnection from your peers and your community, the breakdown of social cohesion on a person-to-person and person-to-surroundings level, and directly feeds into the national and global crises.
 
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Wait... huh? These things indirectly affecting me is specifically why I have libertarian leanings, I do not have the option of saying "fuck this I'm out" specifically because the government wants to affect me personally.

in short;
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@RybenZ999

I would proofread your original post, there are some repeated words other problems. I misunderstood the first sentence. It is missing the word "for" at the end. As someone who does not proofread as he ought to and especially runs into problems using a mobile device, I am not casting aspersions. With that out of the way...

This is something libertarians are often made fun of [FOR] edited.
See the correction in brackets
in the end there isn't really anything I'm gonna do about the current culture and just roll with it.
Every revolution starts with a discussion over coffee. Each of us may not have social media influence, but that can change. Also, to paraphrase voltaire, "No snowlake in an avanalanche wants to think he is responsible."
What really gets me is when it evolves from from something I can ignore to something I can't.
Things that people should not be able to ignore started happening in the 60s, 1920s actually, but that was abated by the Great Depression and that World War the good guys unfortunately lost.

One example that is immediate is single motherhood. That phenomenon came out of arguably good intentions, overstated concerns abou married women leaving abusive homes, concerns that not everyone gets a storybook marriage. That and no fault divorce have caused a dramatic rise in single motherhood households, children born out of wedlock, and the data is so overwhelming as to how those two evils give rise to so many societal problems its staggering. Drug abuse, suicidial ideation, antisocail behavior in school, teenage pregnancy, involvement in the juvenile criminal system, all of it explodes expoenntially with single moms or being born out of wedlock.

Now of course there is a trend in society to legalize marijuana, other illicit drugs. In ten or twenty years we will see how this naive notion that "what someone does in his own private life is his own business" will affect other individuals and society at large.

I have heard this argument about troons. Both adherents to the Cult of Troon and right-wing people who want liberal whites to not breed give different versions of this argument. On twitter, on Dr Phil for chrissake, troonies and their allies will quip "why do you care, why does it affect you." Well, first of all, they are fucking with the language we use. People are using they as a third personal singular pronoun, which is wrong, and also insisting on the notion that people can customize pronouns, which is no less absurd than saying a German speaker can choose to assign "die Frau" the masculine article "der" or a particular mouse (mouse) der because he thinks that mouse is a he, even though mouse takes die. Beyond that, they are calling mothers birthing people, the London Tube and other entities no longer use "ladies and gentlemen" in public address. That alone affects me.

Take an adolescent or young girl who cuts her titties off. That takes a pyschic toll in the same way as someone murdering puppies, to use the example @SSj_Ness used, even if I do not have a vested emotional interest in those puppies besides a general moral outrage to people who arm animals. Same with the zippertits and rotdog and non binary stuff. More particularly though, those instances affect those around them. It affects those family members who do not buy into the cult of troon. It also affects young men in their age bracket who would take a romantic or sexual interest in them. People do not like to hear this but sex, love, and dating are transactional and are subject to the supply of demand. What this means is that even if three percent of zoomer women and younger succumd to this, it will affect the men in their age group by restricting the supply of eligible women to date, and eventually marry. Even if a young man falls in love, marries, the process is rendered more difficult simply by restricting the law of supply demand.

Some lolberts have suggested you cannot legislate morality and that's bullshit. That is why we have or did have laws against prostitution, illicit drug use, on down the line. Laws against prostitution ought to have been applied to pornography while that evil was still in the genie bottle, but it is too late now.

There are other examples seemingly more benign. Sports gambling for example seems innocuous but there is a video on triggernometry where the guest explicates how it is as addictive as cocaine, and making sports gambling readily available normalizes, makes it more pervasive. People lose their mortgages, divorces break out, people steal either from their own small business or from their small business employer, and all sorts of societal evils emanate from that.

Fast food is another example. The United States Armed Forces has had increasing difficulty meeting recruiting targets for a variety of reasons (fear of getting killed or maimed in a stupid decades long conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq is one, woke military ads and policies are another). But another constant is that younger generations are increasingly unfit because they gorge of McDonald's and other goyslop. And instead of having a real right-wing in this country, we have idiots like Sarah Palin who cheer "yay for soda" in response to Michelle Obama actually being right about something.
 
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