Scholz and refugee policy
“We finally have to deport people on a large scale”
The Chancellor's new toughness: Olaf Scholz makes irregular migration a top priority and explains how he wants to reduce the number of refugees. He also has a message for the Jews in Germany.
Photo: Peter Rigaud / DER SPIEGEL
A SPIEGEL conversation by Christoph Hickmann and Dirk Kurbjuweit
October 20, 2023, 1:10 p.m. • from DER SPIEGEL 43/2023
SPIEGEL: Mr. Chancellor, we are having this conversation a few hours after you returned from a trip to Israel and Egypt. In Tel Aviv you met with relatives of the German hostages. What did you tell them?
Scholz: The conversation with the relatives of the abductees was very moving. They are naturally afraid for their loved ones who are in the hands of Hamas and other terrorist groups in the Gaza region. The families have great hope that Germany can help in this terrible situation. I told them that we are doing everything we can to secure the release of those abducted.
SPIEGEL: What are you doing?
Scholz: I ask for your understanding that I will not comment on this publicly - also in order not to complicate these efforts. One thing is clear: this is about release without conditions, and it has to happen as quickly as possible.
SPIEGEL: Shortly before your departure you had to leave the government plane in Tel Aviv and get to safety because of a missile alarm. Were you afraid?
Scholz: No, Israel has an excellent defense system with the Iron Dome, I trusted that. For the citizens of Israel, such situations are a terrible everyday occurrence – I thought of that.
SPIEGEL: What was your impression of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu?
Scholz: We had spoken to each other on the phone several times in the past few days. It was good to meet him in person now. This continues to be a severe shock for everyone in Israel, including him. The Hamas terrorist attack has deeply shaken the sense of security in Israel. Now it's about restoring this feeling of feeling somewhat safe in your own country. Israel has every legitimacy under international law to defend itself against Hamas' terror. I told him that in conversation.
Chancellor Scholz: Warning to Hezbollah and Iran Photo: Peter Rigaud / DER SPIEGEL
SPIEGEL: You have publicly warned Hezbollah in Lebanon and Iran not to enter the conflict. What happens if they do do it on a large scale? Hezbollah is said to have around 150,000 rockets at its disposal.
Scholz: It's not just me who is issuing this warning, the Americans are sending the same message. I am sure that our warnings will be listened carefully to by those for whom they are intended.
SPIEGEL: If the conflict does expand, would it also be conceivable that German soldiers could be deployed?
Scholz: The matter is far too serious to speculate about in the abstract.
SPIEGEL: Until now, such an operation was considered taboo. Apparently that no longer applies?
Scholz: Political wisdom dictates that we never talk abstractly about the question of where in the world we would deploy soldiers, but only in the specific case when the time comes. And: It's not that far yet.
SPIEGEL: Hamas' attack on Israel was brutal. Does a democracy like Israel have to moderate itself despite all the anger so as not to lose sight of the laws of humanity in the fight against terror?
Scholz: That is exactly how Israel sees itself. But that doesn't mean that those who did this to Israel won't face harsh consequences. Israel, as I said, has the right to defend itself and ensure its protection and security.
SPIEGEL: Did you ask Mr. Netanyahu about these laws of humanity?
Scholz: There is no disagreement about that at all. Israel does not need admonitions from German politicians. I asked Prime Minister Netanyahu about Israel's specific plans for military operations. And we talked about the issue of humanitarian aid to Gaza. It is good and important that it gets going.
Relatives and friends of those abducted with Scholz posters in Tel Aviv Photo: Gil Cohen Magen / AFP
SPIEGEL: After Russia's attack on Ukraine, you traveled a lot in the Global South to gather support for the Western position. This will probably become even more difficult now that part of the south sympathizes more with the Palestinians than with the Israelis. The Holocaust is seen there more as a Western issue.
Scholz: The Holocaust was a crime against humanity, and humanity includes all inhabitants of our planet. What we saw in Israel on October 7th was a terrible, murderous, inhumane terrorist attack by Hamas on innocent Israeli citizens - on children, on women, on the elderly, on peaceful participants in a dance festival. Everywhere in the world this is understood as terror.
SPIEGEL: There are obviously people here who don't understand that. There have been anti-Semitic riots on German streets in recent days, especially in Berlin. How could this happen in a country that swore "never again"?
Scholz: Such riots are terrible. And yes, we swore this “never again.” That is why we must resolutely oppose everyone who shouts anti-Semitic slogans, burns the flags of the State of Israel, and blatantly celebrates the death of people as a result of Hamas's terrorist attack. These are all crimes that must be prosecuted.
SPIEGEL: In the last few days, these crimes could be committed publicly.
Scholz: The police and judiciary are against it. Because we cannot and do not want to tolerate this. The assembly authorities must prohibit rallies that pose a risk of such crimes.
SPIEGEL: What is your message to the people who live out their hatred of Israel on the streets?
Scholz: That has no place for us. Hamas's actions were inhumane and barbaric; no one should applaud them. Especially not in the country whose history is inextricably linked to the Shoah.
Social Democrat Scholz Photo: Peter Rigaud / DER SPIEGEL
"The state will do everything to protect Jewish life in Germany."
SPIEGEL: And your message to the Jews in Germany?
Scholz: We are at your side. The state will do everything to protect Jewish life in Germany. And we will not allow ourselves to be divided as citizens of this country. Anyone who attacks Jews, who insults or hurts them, is attacking us all.
SPIEGEL: Among the enemies of Israel in Germany are many people with an Arab migrant background. Has German politics ignored for too long how deep the hatred is among some groups?
Scholz: I don't see that anyone has ignored that. We have had a clear view of this for a long time.
SPIEGEL: Apparently not clear enough. Does Germany have to pay more attention to who comes here and is allowed to stay?
Scholz: We've been doing that for a long time. But we will now differentiate more precisely: On the one hand, it is about the immigration of workers that we need. And it's about those who seek asylum, for example because they are being politically persecuted. On the other hand, that means: Anyone who doesn't belong to one group or the other cannot stay with us. That's why we're limiting irregular migration to Germany - there are too many people coming.
SPIEGEL: How do you want to reduce the number?
Scholz: Through a whole package of measures: we classify Georgia and Moldova as safe countries of origin. Both states want to become members of the European Union, so it is not plausible to assume systematic persecution. We are strengthening the protection of Europe's external borders so that fewer find their way into Europe. And we have agreed on a new solidarity mechanism in the EU: the countries of arrival register the refugees instead of simply waving them through to Germany. In return, they will be distributed across Europe in solidarity. The European Parliament will hopefully adopt this mechanism in the coming months.
SPIEGEL: That will take a while. What can you do immediately, here in Germany?
Scholz: We are now monitoring the borders with our neighboring countries more closely, we have just informed Brussels of that. And we want to reduce the incentives for people to stay here irregularly. If the states now say they want to offer benefits in kind instead of money, we support that. Likewise if they want to introduce a payment card for asylum seekers. We also think it is right to offer asylum seekers charitable work.
“We have to deport more and faster”
SPIEGEL: Do you really think this will significantly reduce the number?
Scholz: As I said, it can only be done with a bundle of measures. And I haven't even mentioned one important measure yet: We finally have to deport on a large scale those who have no right to stay in Germany.
SPIEGEL: What does that mean?
Scholz: Anyone who has no prospect of staying in Germany because they cannot rely on reasons for protection must go back. To achieve this, our authorities must be available around the clock so that someone can actually be deported if the federal police pick them up. It continues that we are finally pushing ahead with the digitalization of the immigration authorities; the paper age must come to an end. The procedures must be quicker, with the asylum application and hearing taking place at the initial reception facility. And the court proceedings must also proceed more quickly. In some federal states, the first instance in deportation proceedings takes four months, in others it takes 39. That's not possible. We have to deport more and faster.
SPIEGEL: The states say that they would have to create more positions in the courts - and for that they would need more money from the federal government.
Scholz: Basically, I suggest we stop pointing fingers at each other - instead we should tackle things together. Everyone should do what they have to do now: the federal government, the states, the municipalities. The work in the immigration authorities will change in the future primarily because we are now concluding agreements with many states so that they can take back their citizens as unbureaucratically as possible. In return, we open up regular channels for the workers we need to come to us. So far, many returns have failed due to a lack of cooperation from the countries of origin and transit. We're changing that.
SPIEGEL: You are striking a new, tough tone in migration policy. What motivated you to make this change?
Scholz: I always thought like that in all my positions. And always spoken like that.
Scholz in the Chancellery Photo: Peter Rigaud / DER SPIEGEL
"We have to be tough when someone has no right to stay."
SPIEGEL: You didn't talk like that as Chancellor. You left your Interior Minister Nancy Faeser alone with the issue. Our impression is that it was only the results of the AfD in the state elections in Bavaria and Hesse that made you change course.
Scholz: Your impression is wrong. I am against tactical politics. It always has to be about the matter, about the concrete solution to problems.
SPIEGEL: We find that difficult to believe.
Scholz: And yet it is the truth. Much of what I have just listed has long been discussed in the government and has now been initiated.
SPIEGEL: Your new line will not be well received in the SPD.
Scholz: The SPD is fully behind this line. This applies to the party leadership, to the state associations, to the parliamentary group. The federal government will also pursue this line together.
Fading sympathy
“How satisfied are you with the work of Chancellor Olaf Scholz?”, in percent
▌unsatisfied
▌satisfied
Source: Civey for SPIEGEL; Survey periods: 14 days each; most recent survey period from October 4th to 18th, 2023; Sample size: at least 4720 respondents; the statistical inaccuracy of the survey is up to 2.5 percentage points; percent missing from 100: “undecided”
SPIEGEL: Seriously, the Greens too? After everything they've already swallowed? Isn't that just too much of an imposition?
Scholz: It is our job to regulate migration. I am sure that the federal government is close together on this issue. We all know what to do now. And it is my job as Chancellor to ensure that we do not hesitate. What is important is that our politics are not based on resentment. We have to be tough when someone has no right to stay. We have to be open and modern at the same time because we need workers from other countries.
SPIEGEL: Germany should choose who it needs and who it doesn't?
Scholz: Around 13 million citizens, affectionately known as the “baby boomers,” will be retiring in the foreseeable future. That's why we need workers in factories, engineers, doctors and nurses. More young people should do vocational training. Older people need better opportunities to find a new job late in their working lives. And the economy must become even more family-friendly so that more young families take part in working life. This also requires more all-day offerings at schools and daycare centers.
SPIEGEL: And immigration is needed?
Scholz: More immigration will also be needed. By modernizing our immigration law and the Skilled Immigration Act, we have created good conditions for talent and skilled workers to come to us from abroad, which we can really use here. They should not only work here, but also live here and integrate well, so that it becomes their urgent wish to become a German citizen. For my taste, this can be combined with a bit of pathos, just like in the USA.
SPIEGEL: People should be selected based on their usefulness for Germany? Anyone who has said this so far has been told by the SPD and the Greens that it is inhumane.
Scholz: Of course we as a state have the right to define who we want to accept here. Urgently needed skilled workers and talents, for example. And this does not affect the right to offer protection to all those who are fleeing political persecution, who are running away from war and death. The fundamental right to asylum arises from German history.
SPIEGEL: Anyone who calls for restrictions on uncontrolled immigration is quickly declared an inhuman and racist on the left spectrum.
Scholz: There certainly is. But most people don't see it that way. It's now about keeping our society together. Anyone who wants unlimited immigration must be honest enough to say that we would then not be able to maintain the welfare state we have today. We would have to accept conditions like those that exist in other countries around the world, with problematic parallel structures. Nobody can seriously wish for that. Therefore that doesn't make us inhuman. Because we are responsible for ensuring that our community functions. This also includes a certain level of hardness. You have to have the strength to tell people that unfortunately they cannot stay here.
SPIEGEL: Aren't you afraid that the AfD will soon tell its voters: We were right, now the Chancellor has also seen it?
Scholz: Well, that would be a blatantly false statement. But such worries shouldn't stop you from doing what seems right to you.
SPIEGEL: Can liberal democracy only ensure its survival by giving up part of its humanitarian claim?
Scholz: Absolutely clear: no. Liberal democracy must show that it is capable of acting and that the state keeps things under control. We have clear rules and they apply. It is neither humanitarian nor progressive if there is large-scale irregular migration in which people put life and limb at risk.
Syrians apprehended by federal police near the Polish border at the end of September Photo: Bernd Wüstneck / picture alliance / dpa
SPIEGEL: More than twenty percent of Germans are currently saying in surveys that they want to vote for a party with essentially right-wing extremist and partly anti-Semitic views. Doesn't that shock you?
Scholz: The growth of right-wing populist parties in Europe has been troubling me for a long time. This doesn't just happen here, it existed long before in Austria, in the Netherlands, in Denmark and Norway, and more recently in Sweden and Finland. The question is: Why does this happen in countries that, from the perspective of the rest of the world, are among the happiest of all, with great economic power, good wages, and a functioning welfare state?
SPIEGEL: Do you have an answer?
Scholz: That has something to do with insecurities. Many citizens are unsettled, even if they are doing well economically. The pandemic has heightened such concerns. As soon as we got out of there, Russia invaded Ukraine. And hanging over everything is the big question of how we can stop man-made climate change.
SPIEGEL: What does this have to do with the AfD?
Scholz: In order to protect the climate, we are initiating the greatest modernization of industrial society since the end of the 19th century - by expanding the use of wind power and solar energy and switching to climate-neutral production. Of course, many people ask themselves: Will this go well? Will I keep my job? Uncertainty creates new points of contact for parties that chant dull right-wing slogans.
SPIEGEL: The AfD is seen as unconstitutional in parts, but there are still no serious efforts to ban it. How do you deal with this contradiction?
Scholz: It's good that the Offices for the Protection of the Constitution are carrying out their tasks. But I'm not a fan of banning the AfD. I am convinced that the citizens will ensure that the importance of this party decreases again.
SPIEGEL: What are you doing about this as Chancellor?
Scholz: Firstly, I would like to say clearly that such right-wing attitudes must have no place in our democracy! No cooperation with such parties! Second, I show through actions that we are on the right path. That we have a plan for the future. We have reason to be confident.
SPIEGEL: You have been Chancellor for almost two years. Apparently you have not yet succeeded in conveying even the slightest bit of this confidence. What went wrong?
Scholz: First of all, things went pretty well because the government tackled problems decisively. In Germany we had the luxury of phasing out nuclear energy twice, and we then decided to also phase out coal-fired power generation. At the same time, however, we have not expanded the electricity grid at the necessary pace, have not built enough wind turbines and solar systems, and have not invested enough in hydroelectric power plants and biomass. Under my leadership, the federal government has now initiated a turnaround and taken the necessary decisions. By 2030 we will be able to generate 80 percent of our electricity from renewable energies.
SPIEGEL: The traffic light, a success story. We hadn't noticed it that way until now.
Scholz: What a shame! We don't have to avoid the fact that something went wrong in these almost two years. Within the government coalition we have endured an absurd, ongoing argument about political decisions. The citizens often understood this just as little as I did. And this has to end now.
Scholz, SPIEGEL editors Dirk Kurbjuweit (l.), Christoph Hickmann Photo: Peter Rigaud / DER SPIEGEL
SPIEGEL: You sound as if you had nothing to do with it. You are at the head of this government, but you have often let the dispute run its course.
Scholz: No, I always worked on finding solutions and compromises. I don't do this publicly through interviews, but rather in confidential conversations, as is appropriate. The government's record is recognized, yes, we have achieved a lot. Although in such a constellation with three coalition partners it doesn't work in such a way that as Chancellor I can say: I'll listen to your opinion - and then decide on my own what we'll do. This is already a joint event. Nevertheless, it is clear that many things have to happen faster. And most importantly, this constant argument has to stop. At the moment it seems that everyone in the government parties has now understood this.
SPIEGEL: Mr. Chancellor, we thank you for this conversation.
