Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Jump]

You don't even need to worry about drones. Russia could see a bridge being built from outer space with their satellites. Russia could let them waste resources on it and then cruise missile it every time it gets close to being done over and over.

When this is all over I think its going to end up with that part of the Dieper river being the new border. No matter who makes a bridge there its going to be quickly btfo by the other side the next day.

 

[Kiwiballs]

Could be the Russians are doing their own mini-Kursk here but as the Germans. Going through layer after layer defense.
Or really these things shouldn't be called mini-anything.
We're up at 300 k casualties for each side now. Or is it 300 k dead? In the war overall.


Probably bled more than the entire Donbass is worth at this point but yeah, just keep killing each other.
What we don't know are the Ukranian casualties in this offensive, historically the Kursk offensive cost the Russians a lot more dead than Germans. Defense in depth as practiced by the the Russians in WW2 while effective in breaking up attacks also means individual positions can be isolated and completely destroyed.

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

We're up at 300 k casualties for each side now. Or is it 300 k dead? In the war overall.

Just to put things into perspective, 517k died from Covid in 2021 in Russia alone. 300k may look like a lot, but does not have a noticeable impact on the society when the entire media apparatus is drawing attention away from it.

 

[Yak-130 Mitten]

Could be the Russians are doing their own mini-Kursk here but as the Germans. Going through layer after layer defense.
Or really these things shouldn't be called mini-anything.
We're up at 300 k casualties for each side now. Or is it 300 k dead? In the war overall.


Probably bled more than the entire Donbass is worth at this point but yeah, just keep killing each other.
What we don't know are the Ukranian casualties in this offensive, historically the Kursk offensive cost the Russians a lot more dead than Germans. Defense in depth as practiced by the the Russians in WW2 while effective in breaking up attacks also means individual positions can be isolated and completely destroyed.

I am sorry sir but what the fuck are you even talking about

 

[Kiwiballs]

I am sorry sir but what the fuck are you even talking about

Bruh, what do you think Im talking about? How to silently appropriate Zelensky's Cocaine stash without taking hits yourself?
The Adivka offensive that's being discussed just above, which is looking like a Kursk-like battle exhausting the Russians as they inch their way forward.

The point also being that we dont really know the casualties the Ukranians are taking in slowing that Russian attack to a crawl through their myriad of defensive positions that one after the other are slowly being annihilated.


edit: Lol this faggot doesn't know what I'm posting about but rates it dumb. Can you be more NPC?

 

[Givi]

Bruh, what do you think Im talking about? How to silently appropriate Zelensky's Cocaine stash without taking hits yourself?
The Adivka offensive that's being discussed just above, which is looking like a Kursk-like battle exhausting the Russians as they inch their way forward.

They aren't very comparable. I mean, here's Kursk



And here's Adviivka



The UAF has already lost damn near every important position not within the city itself, included but not limited to fire control of the railroad, the landfill at Krasnohorivka (which just a few days ago was vacated of the UAF but had no Russian presence either, and now apparently does) and one of the main roads going into the city itself. At this point if (when) the UAF loses Sieverne and Lastochkyne the city's going to turn into an inescapable death trap as the last roads out of the city would then be in clear control of the Russians. It's not like they're in a good position now though, since Russian artillery already has more than enough range to hit the road however they wish, and they're close enough to raid and harass the roads already, probably. There's no "layers" to go through here, only the city really remains as a bastion and the UAF has seemed fairly powerless to take any of this territory back for any worthwhile time period.

It's just gonna be Bakhmut again because Zaluzhny thinks retreating is for losers.

 

[Kiwiballs]

They aren't very comparable. I mean, here's Kursk

View attachment 5449158

And here's Adviivka

View attachment 5449164

The UAF has already lost damn near every important position not within the city itself, included but not limited to fire control of the railroad, the landfill at Krasnohorivka (which just a few days ago was vacated of the UAF but had no Russian presence either, and now apparently does) and one of the main roads going into the city itself. At this point if (when) the UAF loses Sieverne and Lastochkyne the city's going to turn into an inescapable death trap as the last roads out of the city would then be in clear control of the Russians. It's not like they're in a good position now though, since Russian artillery already has more than enough range to hit the road however they wish, and they're close enough to raid and harass the roads already, probably. There's no "layers" to go through here, only the city really remains as a bastion and the UAF has seemed fairly powerless to take any of this territory back for any worthwhile time period.

It's just gonna be Bakhmut again because Zaluzhny thinks retreating is for losers.

It's the same picture. Just on a smaller scale, just like the entire Ukranian "Summer Offensive" basically was over a few villages.

I mean I do assume the Ukranians are taking extremely heavy losses as they lose positions and as Russia is able to concentrate fire from all directions on a small area. That was kinda my question in relation to the claims of say the Guardian that the Russians are taking extreme casualties.

 

[Yak-130 Mitten]

Bruh, what do you think Im talking about? How to silently appropriate Zelensky's Cocaine stash without taking hits yourself?
The Adivka offensive that's being discussed just above, which is looking like a Kursk-like battle exhausting the Russians as they inch their way forward.

The point also being that we dont really know the casualties the Ukranians are taking in slowing that Russian attack to a crawl through their myriad of defensive positions that one after the other are slowly being annihilated.


edit: Lol this faggot doesn't know what I'm posting about but rates it dumb. Can you be more NPC?

It looks NOTHING like battle at Kursk. Nothing in this war looked like battle of Kursk so far. Kursk was a battle between a heavily entrenched defenders with enormous strategic reserve and attackers who while being more experienced lacked in strategic reserve and manpower to sustain an offensive against more powerful enemy for long. Kursk had clearly visible lines of advance for an encirclement while Avdivivivivika was a frontline town, only in danger of encirclement after russian advance last two weeks.

Where do you have the 300k casualty list for russians and ukrainians from? No one knows really how high they are, but given that both ukrops and us speakpersons admit that they dont have nearly enough prisoners for exchange (and with recent admission of at least ten thousand ukrainian POWs) how do you expect the losses to be equal?

Where do you see layered defense? The city is the fortress, or to be the specific, the coke plant. Once that falls, the next reinforced area is about 30km further north-west. There are no extensive fortification in the fields, especially showcased by how easily russian armor and APCs drove up to the treeline next to the refuse pile.

This is not a defense in depth scenario. This is "holy shit we only have the town to defend itself" scenario. Defense in depth was displayed south of Zaporozhe, where ukrops failed to fully breach a single line of defense out of three.

If your strategic understanding limits to lines displayed by hearts of iron 4, maybe you should not try to educate others.

And if you care about stickers, you are a faggot.

 

[Kiwiballs]

@Yak-130 Mitten
Look faggot, Im not doing my fantasy master thesis on the war here on Kiwifarms, unlike you.
The joke/point was that it's a two pronged encirclement that is gnawing through a layered defense and that's causing the Russians huge casualties.
Here are more people comparing it to Kursk, I didnt even know abotu this, just googled Kursk + adivka:

https://www.laprensalatina.com/russian-battle-for-avdiivka-threatens-to-become-another-meat-grinder/amp/

https://xxtomcooperxx.substack.com/p/ukraine-20-october-2023-alo-alo

Here's a figure from August saying almost 500 000 for both sides
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/18/ukraine-russia-war-battlefield-deaths-rise
What do you estimate?


Also why are you seething so much?
The fighting is not just in the city, they are attempting to encircle the city, obviously. Armored/Mechanized Russian columns are being annihilated as they themselves crush defensive positions layered out in depth in the fields and forests surrounding the town. Fine, it might be more like a little mix of operation Uranus and Kursk. Are we happy now or do we have to devolve into more autistic comparisons?

 

[Betonhaus]

Look faggot, Im not doing my fantasy master thesis on the war here on Kiwifarms, unlike you.

That's certainly one way to say "I refuse to do my own research, and I refuse to even consider looking at balanced reaserch that disagrees with my Super Amazing Opinions unless I can find one tiny flaw I can twist to pretend the whole thing is invalid"

 

[Kiwiballs]

That's certainly one way to say "I refuse to do my own research, and I refuse to even consider looking at balanced reaserch that disagrees with my Super Amazing Opinions unless I can find one tiny flaw I can twist to pretend the whole thing is invalid"

Unlike you and him my information is actually sourced and sperging about your military knowledge instead of just using an allegory to illustrate a point isn't "doing balanced research". Jesus christ.
I forgot how toxic these two threads were.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Unlike you and him my information is actually sourced and sperging about your military knowledge instead of just using an allegory to illustrate a point isn't "doing balanced research". Jesus christ.
I forgot how toxic these two threads were.

He's not being "toxic". he's telling you that your comparison is way off base. Avdeevka is in no way comparable to Kursk, and not in the least because its not a tank battle.

 

[Legato]

Imagine thinking The Guardian, A UK paper, is in any way a good source.

 

[Kiwiballs]

He's not being "toxic". he's telling you that your comparison is way off base. Avdeevka is in no way comparable to Kursk, and not in the least because its not a tank battle.

Its comparable due to the intentions of the battle, the losses being taken, the losses being inflicted most likely, the fact that armored columns are being isolated and destroyed and isolated positions are being surrounded and destroyed, the time its taking for the small amounts of ground being gained (relative to scale) and the probable failure it looks like it will result in. Essentially the comparison is about the meatgrinder status of the battle and its attempt to encircle forces, not the composition of the battle.



The fact that there are no tank battles in the war is not really relevant to the point of my comparison, neither was Kursk a tank battle primarily, even if the biggest one of the war happened there, it was first and foremost a battle of armored and mechanized formations vs fortifications which this is.


Rating everything dumb that you disagree with is Reddit pleb moves, but keep at it if you want. The question is really what the fuck you're even disagreeing with, the comparison? Didn't people talk about Operation fucking Bagration before or ZItadelle for the Ukranians? Is that your problem or is the problem that Im even referencing Russian losses because that goes against the narrative in this thread or what?

Imagine thinking The Guardian, A UK paper, is in any way a good source.

I'd take that over pulling shit out of my ass like Yak seems to be doing. I'm still asking for an alternative estimate on losses and I'm more than willing to listen. War seems to be hell and both sides seemed to have ground to a halt compared to the bigger, sweeping moves early on.
The armored losses for both Russia and Ukraine are astonishing, so while we can't count graves that easily we can count vehicles destroyed.
And it's starting to look like World War 2. Oryx is good for Russian losses, and they suggest 2000 destroyed or heavily damaged tanks. That is more than most countries have in their arsenals.
I'm sure the are better sources the Ukranians but they are probably above a thousand too. They use fewer tanks so fewer losses are expected.
Find a better source instead of talking shit about the only one provided.


In the Operation Citadel the Russians lost upwards to 2000 tanks, their total losses in manpower were 177.000. Compositions have changed, but I don't think a 300 000 number is unreasonable and you've yet to provide any reason for why it would be.

Probably the same for the Ukrainians.

 

[CaptainAutism69]

Who's this grape faggot and where did he come from?

 

[Rubick]

We have no real idea what the Russian casualties are. Besides from Ukrop propaganda and the west who pulling shit out of their ass or regurgitating Ukrainian fairy tales.

Same for Ukraine except for the fact that they have mobilied who the fuck keeps track at this point times. But it's bad enough they are kidnapping people and even drafting handicapt and the very young.


Hell the situation with cemeteries in Ukraine really says it all.

Russia on the other hand hasn't used it's entire mobilized reserve and the bulk is being held back.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Rating everything dumb that you disagree with is Reddit pleb moves, but keep at it if you want. The question is really what the fuck you're even disagreeing with, the comparison? Didn't people talk about Operation fucking Bagration before or ZItadelle for the Ukranians? Is that your problem or is the problem that Im even referencing Russian losses because that goes against the narrative in this thread or what?

Because Battle of Kursk was, and still is, the biggest tank battle ever in history, and this is not a tank battle, and Operation Bagration was a series of engagements rather than just one big battle, so you, like many others, are not cognizant of the vastness of the Ukraine and how methodical Russia is approaching this. Sure, its not the American way or warfare but the again this is not America or any war America has fought in the last eighty years.

This isn't reddit talk, its just common sense. Calm down.

 

[MMS-China]

An awful lot of US foreign policy ends up enabling child traffickers.

The former Vice chairman of the Council on Foreign relations says 8 million children just disappear worldwide per year. He believes the World organizations have little difference between them to the cartels and terrorist organizations they claim to be against. In some cases the cartels may be a step up.

As one of the Baltic politicians said "I would sooner trust the cartels than the World Health Organization"

 

[Kiwiballs]

Because Battle of Kursk was, and still is, the biggest tank battle ever in history, and this is not a tank battle, and Operation Bagration was a series of engagements rather than just one big battle, so you, like many others, are not cognizant of the vastness of the Ukraine and how methodical Russia is approaching this. Sure, its not the American way or warfare but the again this is not America or any war America has fought in the last eighty years.

This isn't reddit talk, its just common sense. Calm down.

Jesus, all this sperging for no reason. You're completely ignoring the other aspects that are similar and focusing like an autist on your special interest that seems to be tanks.

No, I know that's not what you're actually doing, the question is why you're doing any of this when my only reason for posting all of this was to ask about the Ukranian losses in comparison to those of the Russian ones.

What ever, bored of this already.

 

[Legato]

Jesus, all this sperging for no reason. You're completely ignoring the other aspects that are similar and focusing like an autist on your special interest that seems to be tanks.

No, I know that's not what you're actually doing, the question is why you're doing any of this when my only reason for posting all of this was to ask about the Ukranian losses in comparison to those of the Russian ones.

What ever, bored of this already.

Did you even bother to read any of this thread? Do you know why there are 2 separate threads for the war?

I suspect the answer would be no.