Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[The Third Wright Brother]

I don't know where else to post this (I don't think I have anywhere else to post this) but if anyone could in or out of this thread say a prayer for the poor souls of 9/11, it would be greatly appreciated.




Edit: I thought you guys might appreciate this image as well. I'm not aware of how many people know of it's background. After both the towers had collapsed, clean up crews were sent in to remove the rubble. On September 13th, a worker named Frank Silecchia discovered the cross lying in the rubble.

It was used as a shrine for the first few weeks before it became an obstacle and was thusly removed and placed on ground zero, where it lies today.

In light of the rather solemn tone of the post, I would just like to thank everyone who has participated and contributed to this thread. I know it might sound odd from an internet stranger you'll never meet, but the thoughtful, charitable, kind hearted responses have lifted my spirit in these trying times. I hope to God Almighty I'll meet you in heaven. Goodnight, beloved Internet strangers. Stay Holy.✞

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

I don't know where else to post this (I don't think I have anywhere else to post this) but if anyone could in or out of this thread say a prayer for the poor souls of 9/11, it would be greatly appreciated.




Edit: I thought you guys might appreciate this image as well. I'm not aware of how many people know of it's background. After both the towers had collapsed, clean up crews were sent in to remove the rubble. On September 13th, a worker named Frank Silecchia discovered the cross lying in the rubble.
View attachment 5332216
It was used as a shrine for the first few weeks before it became an obstacle and was thusly removed and placed on ground zero, where it lies today.
View attachment 5332221

In light of the rather solemn tone of the post, I would just like to thank everyone who has participated and contributed to this thread. I know it might sound odd from an internet stranger you'll never meet, but the thoughtful, charitable, kind hearted responses have lifted my spirit in these trying times. I hope to God Almighty I'll meet you in heaven. Goodnight, beloved Internet strangers. Stay Holy.✞

Thank you for the kind words. I find it unfortunate that such an event means so little to me, given that it's only been 22 years since. But I was far too young, I suppose, and far too distant, physically. Though, I do wonder what the young people of New York think about this. I've the feeling they don't see it with the same sort of patriotic fervor as others did. It's somewhat depressing, to think that generational attitudes can change so much, in such a short amount of time.

 

[The Third Wright Brother]

generational attitudes can change so much, in such a short amount of time.

I wish that such a transient character were restricted to only generational attitudes. But I think it's important to not get lost in the chaos of the world, if that makes any sense. What I'm trying to get at is that the nature of the Fallen World we Inhabit will always trend to dust (or entropy, whatever you would like to call it). Empires will inevitably fall, ways of life shall always go defunct, tragedies shall become nothing more than a dry list of fact to be read to an apathetic and disinterested crowd or a toool utilized by cunning and cruel men with ambitions and goals with the glorification of the ego as the only end goal. The ideas, places, and things we hold to be deeply cherishable will crumble to dust, trampled underfoot by foreign and alien heels. I don't mean to laboriously highlight the nihilistic fact that everything around us is going to dissipate, but is should always be in the back of our minds as Christians, as we are not of this world. To many worldviews and modes of being this is an obstacle impossible to cross , an impenetrable barrier that must be constantly fought lest it consume all we hold dear. But this is not so with Christ Jesus. He has overcome the world. One of the biggest reasons I became Christain was that it provided a way for the Good of the world to not only remain, but to transfigurate beyond the substrate it was made from and ascend to its Creator. It had been given the permanence it deserved. A tender smile between friends 2000 years ago was no longer forgotten and left to dusty death. A toddlers first steps in Japan were not something to be brushed over. It seems strange to highlight trivial interactions between commonfolk with little to no historical footprint, but I've always believed that an ounce of good could never be spoiled even before I knew Christ. I didn't think it deserved to be tarnished. Everyone, everywhere and anywhere could have their charity, their honor, the glory their life deserved immortalized. if they'd but pick up their cross and trek with God to their true homeland , Jerusalem, The City of God. With Him, it could been raised to the dignity, to the glory and love it deserved, it needed to be if we were to bother to remember anything at all, if anything ought to have been remembered at all. We were dust , and to dust we'd always return. Life was a walking shadow, a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. But we are not doomed to die. The Futility of Macbeth had a potent antidote. The Cross. We believe our God to be so great that he willingly sent down His only begotten son, to live as a carpenter, an ordinary man for over 30 years. Can you imagine it? Every time I try to my mind can only bring a fuzzy impression to mind. The King of Kings, working and living the same kind o life as his fellow craftsman. It makes my heart warm, to imagine him waving to one of his neighbors. God loved us so much that he not only slew death with the abundance of His life through His son, but made that path possible to all men, from every and any age. I have always heard from atheists that Heaven was a fat load a cope, a crutch for the weak minded that could not bear to fathom suffering with no redemption, pain with no point. I now find it to be the only way to love anything at all. You are disheartened by the fickle nature of man in his thought, words, and deeds and I deeply sympathize with you on this regard. But please do not fall into pernicious despair. God has wonderfully and fearfully made you. Stay Holy.✞

 

[The Cheese Aisle]

Do you think your use of Kiwifarms aligns, contrasts, or is neutral with Christian doctrine? Discuss, ideally citing any supporting scripture.

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

Do you think your use of Kiwifarms aligns, contrasts, or is neutral with Christian doctrine? Discuss, ideally citing any supporting scripture.

My honest impression is that it falls under the umbrella of gossip, which is best avoided among Christians I suppose. But part of me rationalizes it as my being made more aware of the world and its evils. I fear being here also makes me more hate-filled, in a way. The line between condemnatory anger and righteous indignation is a fine one, and I often find myself thinking ill of people, rather than pitying them. But it can be said that those who act righteous, yet are ultimately evil (i.e., most every transsexual featured on this website) are deserving of hatred and harsh words.

That does run the risk of producing self-righteousness, though, and making me believe I'm inherently better than the transsexuals and other deviants covered here. Yet, going back to the Word and thinking on my past helps me realize I'm just as worthy of death as those same people. It's just that I'm aware of the evil I've done, and that I need Christ all the more because of it.

All of this to say, I think being here isn't really ideal for Christians. God and Christ should be our priority. But the world has, I feel, forced us to find places like this in order to express ourselves and our beliefs. Perhaps we should power through our fears and speak openly. Ideally we would, but the darkness of the world is oppressive, and makes the Lord seem so far away. 'Help thou mine unbelief' indeed.

 

[The Cheese Aisle]

My honest impression is that it falls under the umbrella of gossip, which is best avoided among Christians I suppose. But part of me rationalizes it as my being made more aware of the world and its evils. I fear being here also makes me more hate-filled, in a way. The line between condemnatory anger and righteous indignation is a fine one, and I often find myself thinking ill of people, rather than pitying them. But it can be said that those who act righteous, yet are ultimately evil (i.e., most every transsexual featured on this website) are deserving of hatred and harsh words.

That does run the risk of producing self-righteousness, though, and making me believe I'm inherently better than the transsexuals and other deviants covered here. Yet, going back to the Word and thinking on my past helps me realize I'm just as worthy of death as those same people. It's just that I'm aware of the evil I've done, and that I need Christ all the more because of it.

All of this to say, I think being here isn't really ideal for Christians. God and Christ should be our priority. But the world has, I feel, forced us to find places like this in order to express ourselves and our beliefs. Perhaps we should power through our fears and speak openly. Ideally we would, but the darkness of the world is oppressive, and makes the Lord seem so far away. 'Help thou mine unbelief' indeed.

You make some great points, and I’ve been thinking the same things, hence the question. I think I’ve circumvented this a bit by de-homogenizing the farm and only following/visiting the forums and threads that are less likely to provoke those feelings for me, but it’s still nice to have fellowship about

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

You make some great points, and I’ve been thinking the same things, hence the question. I think I’ve circumvented this a bit by de-homogenizing the farm and only following/visiting the forums and threads that are less likely to provoke those feelings for me, but it’s still nice to have fellowship about

Indeed. I still find myself going to forums or threads I probably shouldn't, but so long as I keep to the Word and keep myself grounded, then it works out. There are good things about this website, even if it might not engender hope for mankind, most of the time.

 

[Romeo]

If you all are interested, there is a YouTube channel called Ready to Harvest who discusses all the different Christian denominations of Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox, from devout to heretical, and the drama that surrounds some of them. Although its host Joshua sounds like he is repeating a wiki summary of the denomination and drama, he does come off very neutral and does enlighten his audience of the other Christian denominations out there.

Here are some of the outgoing drama regarding Christian denominations out that he covers that I connect some dots to give some continuity.

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Decline of Mainline Protestantism​

Protestantism in the United States of America are split into two categories: Evangelicalism and Mainline. Although Evangelicalism favors trendy, hip, born-again lifestyles, Evangelicals are very devout to the Christian doctrine (or how they interpret it) and appeal to a younger generation (like zoomers). Mainliners on the other hand favor more traditional ways of worship and service and thus appeal to older generations (boomers), but on the other hand, introduce modernities to its doctrines to more "inclusive and diverse."

Ready to Harvest analyzes that attendance in all Mainline denominations have decreased into low amounts, but also analyzed that there is a minimal decreased attendance also comes from some conservative Evangelical denominations are also affected. These denominations are losing attendance to competing and more appealing Evangelical denominations and non-denominational Evangelical churches due to better doctrines and leadership.

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The Schism in the United Methodist Church (UMC)​

If you met a Methodist in the U.S., most likely he or she is from the UMC. The largest of the Mainline churches that was talked into the video is the UMC, which in addition to seeing shrinking attendance numbers, has also a schism going in its church. Disorganization, money mismanagement, and most of all, introduction of more modern concepts of diversity, tolerance, and inclusion to its doctrine such as LGBT issues have brought liberal and conservative members against each other, and has resulted in many UMC churches either shutting down or leaving the UMC organization entirely.

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Schisms in the Anglican Church​

Methodism is not the only Mainline Protestant denomination that is suffering a schism. For more doctrinal reasons rather than organization, Anglicanism, created when Henry VIII split the Church of England from the Roman Catholic Church, has underwent several schisms mostly on appointing women as clergy and gay marriage. As a result, the conservative Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) formed out of formerly disillusioned Anglican Churches belonging to the more liberal Episcopal Church and Anglican Church of Canada.

All of these denominations have seen decreasing attendance numbers, though the more liberal denominations are falling faster than ACNA. In addition, Anglican churches in Africa are bitter about Western Anglican churches changing their doctrines on homosexuality and has established their own conferences to maintain their conservatism.

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Personal Ordinariate: The Roman Catholic Church bringing disillusioned Anglicans and Methodists back to Roman Catholicism​

One of the more interesting projects that I learned was the Ordinariate, a canonical structure that the Roman Catholic Church established in 2009 that allowed Anglicans and Methodists to become Roman Catholics and accept Catholic teaching while maintaining aspects of their liturgies and autonomous organization. The Ordinariates that were established are:

• Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham (England and Wales, Scotland)
• Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter (United States, Canada)
• Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross (Australia, Japan)

The Ordinariate was extremely popular and a lot of prominent Anglicans and Methodist churches and officials has joined them.

---

In addition to describing the liturgies, creeds, and organization of different Christian denominations, Joshua also covers other aspects of Christian denominations, such as why Protestant churches always adopt the most non-identarian corporate names, brands, and abbreviations.

 

[David Brown]

So what's the deal with people who call themselves "culturally christian" but don't actually believe in the miracles of Jesus, the Torah prophecies, and the resurrection and all that? Christianity is basically total nonsense without believing in it literally. If Jesus wasn't actually resurrected than we can't ever be forgiven for any sins. And if you don't even think that the Genesis creation story is true than none of the rest of anything makes any sense anyway. Christianity is an extremely historically dependent religion and unless all the prophecies are literally true and the historical narrative of Jesus is historical fact in every detail there's no point. The secondary theological stuff wouldn't even exist with Aristotle and Plato anyway. Some people claim that judeochristian values are the best ethical system but it's not like Jesus invented being nice to people. At least the jews can claim to be following the laws of a covenant with their god through the seed of Abraham and there are specific rules like kashrut and how they worship and their sabbath conduct, and they do it because they think they will eventually rule the world and all the world will worship the god of Israel and Zion and people will see the jews as the priests bringing the light of the nations (which to be honest they have succeeded with pretty well, gotta give them a little credit).

It just doesn't make any sense to admire Christian way of life and ethics unless you believe in the whole package unquestionably but there are so many people who are see social problems today and sort of lukewarmly think a vague idea of god will fix it, but it's really an all-or-nothing situation. Even Jersh has a half ass non-committal approach and throws out random bible verses for some reason. Does he even remember that he cites James 4:7 at the bottom of each page on the Farms?

What do you guys think about all that?

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

So what's the deal with people who call themselves "culturally christian" but don't actually believe in the miracles of Jesus, the Torah prophecies, and the resurrection and all that? Christianity is basically total nonsense without believing in it literally. If Jesus wasn't actually resurrected than we can't ever be forgiven for any sins.

It's probably something akin to what "ethnic Jews" do, where they identify with their heritage, in some way, yet fail to appreciate or practice their faith with any sincerity. The reason for this likely has to do with a fairly worldly mindset, where they want to live in the world, yet still have the supposed moral benefits of following Christ's teachings.

And if you don't even think that the Genesis creation story is true than none of the rest of anything makes any sense anyway.

If this was the only point of contention, then I'd say true faith is still possible. As one can appreciate the beginnings of Creation without necessarily believing the world was created in six days. But, there's usually much more to it than that, in that more and more things are considered fables or too fantastic to have been real. Thus making people more akin to Deists than orthodox Christians.

It just doesn't make any sense to admire Christian way of life and ethics unless you believe in the whole package unquestionably but there are so many people who are see social problems today and sort of lukewarmly think a vague idea of god will fix it, but it's really an all-or-nothing situation.

Indeed. It's like seeing the light of God before you and comprehending the darkness that surrounds you, yet never committing to staying within that light. It's something I myself have done, time and again. For I loved the world too much, and still do to some extent. It's the sort of battle St. Paul mentions in his epistle to the Galatians, where the Flesh and the Spirit are said to be vying for control of us. In the case of "cultural Christians" I think their fundamental issue is a love for the world, all the while knowing there are things about it that need to change. So they approach true faith and endeavor to walk alongside it, rather than embrace it as fully as possible.

 

[The Third Wright Brother]

Just said a decade for the suffering of all transgender individuals. Does anyone find themselves praying for the LGBTQ+ community more often. I used seldomly do it, but after reading the SRS thread and the general misery of these people, I find myself deeply saddened by them in a way I wasn't before. I guess it's just a blatant display of human brokenness that lies within every person. If anyone reading this could say a prayer of mercy for all the members of the LGBTQ+ community, I'd deeply appreciate it. Stay Holy!!! ✞

 

[ShapelyMutton]

This is likely the wrong place to ask but is the health of any individual church best gauged by the activities of its fraternal organizations? If the Knights of Columbus can only put on one fish fry or pancake breakfast a year how healthy and involved could the congregants at any church be?

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

This is likely the wrong place to ask but is the health of any individual church best gauged by the activities of its fraternal organizations? If the Knights of Columbus can only put on one fish fry or pancake breakfast a year how healthy and involved could the congregants at any church be?

I'd say a church can still be healthy, despite however active or inactive other societies are. The health of a church is best gauged in not only how its members act, but also in what's being preached. Many more Mainline Protestant churches tend to be outward in their faith, yet still interested in the world, for the most part. Being more concerned with personal expression than spiritual well-being is the hallmark.

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

Bit of a weird one to ask, but I was wanting to ask about alchemy. Simply put; is it possible for someone to be both a Christian and an alchemist at the same time/is alchemy considered to be Satanic/demonic? I've been trying to do some research on the subject, but I haven't been able to find much on it as of yet- the internet isn't exactly known to be consistent these days; what are your thoughts?

 

[no-exit]

Bit of a weird one to ask, but I was wanting to ask about alchemy. Simply put; is it possible for someone to be both a Christian and an alchemist at the same time/is alchemy considered to be Satanic/demonic? I've been trying to do some research on the subject, but I haven't been able to find much on it as of yet- the internet isn't exactly known to be consistent these days; what are your thoughts?

What do you have in mind when you think of alchemy? are you referring to protoscientific chemistry? Or the esoteric spiritual aspects? Historical, or modern?

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

What do you have in mind when you think of alchemy? are you referring to protoscientific chemistry? Or the esoteric spiritual aspects? Historical, or modern?

I swear, if I lose connection to this site one more time...

Mostly on the spiritual and historical sides of it; I've heard a lot of conflicting information on it, with some saying that there were indeed Christian alchemists with strong spiritual leanings, while others have been saying that it's worse than if a Christian was using tarot cards and seeing the future and such.

What are you guys' thoughts on the subject? Because I can't find anything consistent about it.

 

[no-exit]

I swear, if I lose connection to this site one more time...

Mostly on the spiritual and historical sides of it; I've heard a lot of conflicting information on it, with some saying that there were indeed Christian alchemists with strong spiritual leanings, while others have been saying that it's worse than if a Christian was using tarot cards and seeing the future and such.

What are you guys' thoughts on the subject? Because I can't find anything consistent about it.

So from my cursory research here's what I have found:
In the 12th and 13th century, St. Albertus Magnus and St. Roger Bacon translated and summarized Islamic alchemical texts from arabic, but didn't really add anything. Bacon later included alchemy in his comprehensive curriculum, Opus Majus, as a natural philosophy, and early experimental science. There are occult-ish themes here, as Bacon was interested in magic. Bacon was regarded as a mad scientist type, the first Westerner to formulate gunpowder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bacon

The Roman Inquisition apparently couldnt make up its mind. Aquinas thought alchemy as a natural philosophy, and was compatible with Catholicism. Inquisitor Eymerich saw it as heresy. The Roman Inquisition flip flopped between these opinions.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00026980.2018.1512779

In 1317, Pope John forbade alchemy. Not for theological reasons, but to address fraudulent alchemists from exploiting people.

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

So from my cursory research here's what I have found:
In the 12th and 13th century, St. Albertus Magnus and St. Roger Bacon translated and summarized Islamic alchemical texts from arabic, but didn't really add anything. Bacon later included alchemy in his comprehensive curriculum, Opus Majus, as a natural philosophy, and early experimental science. There are occult-ish themes here, as Bacon was interested in magic. Bacon was regarded as a mad scientist type, the first Westerner to formulate gunpowder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bacon

The Roman Inquisition apparently couldnt make up its mind. Aquinas thought alchemy as a natural philosophy, and was compatible with Catholicism. Inquisitor Eymerich saw it as heresy. The Roman Inquisition flip flopped between these opinions.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00026980.2018.1512779

In 1317, Pope John forbade alchemy. Not for theological reasons, but to address fraudulent alchemists from exploiting people.

So is was kinda... neutral? Little surprised; figured it would end up being either okay or despised from what I've seen.

Now I'm even more curious; anyone have any more information?

 

[The Third Wright Brother]

So is was kinda... neutral? Little surprised; figured it would end up being either okay or despised from what I've seen.

I think the Church properly thought of it as a small, harmless pseudo-science, all things aside. From my own personal perspective Alchemy has always struck me almost as a hobby for wealthy, slightly eccentric, above average IQ males. I don't think it was ever anything else.

Now I'm even more curious; anyone have any more information?

I don't have any pointed references to the Church's opinion and treatment of it, but I know of a good book called The History of Chemistry By Willaim H Brock. For the first 4 or so chapters he goes over the history and prominent figures of the Alchemy movement. It was a good read. I'd highly recommend that you check it out! Stay Holy!!! ✞

 

[no-exit]

So random question do any of you Catholics request intercession from a particular saint? My favorite is Saint Dymphna, as I used to be an insomniac.

Edit:It's a crime Saint Terry hasn't been canonized yet, as I need help with a programming problem. Can't seem to solve the damn thing.

Bit of an obvious answer for any Catholic, but Mary, mother of Jesus. There are also the various different venerations and devotions to her. Many venerate the apparition closest to them physically or culturally.
There's also St. Isidore who is the saint of students, and the unofficial patron saint of programming.

It feels like all the groups except the Mormons who don't even believe in the Trinity have lost the faith as a collective. Not sure how we don't end up like the Pagans at this rate after a couple of centuries if not sooner.

Maybe but as a lapsed/ demoralized Catholic/Orthodox I just don't see it. I see a hollowed out institution that lost its ability to create the structure necessary for living the faith. Every time I tried to live the faith, I just ended up running into the brick wall of cultural Catholicism and hypocrisy even when I was trying the Taylor Marshall/ Timothy Gordon path.

I'm not sure where you guys live, but I'll assume somewhere in North America. In some countries outside of western civilization, the Catholic Church is ubiquitous and strong. The most Catholic countries are Brazil, Mexico, and the Philippines. I can't remember where I read this, but some clergy said something like "The future of the Catholic Church is in Asia and Africa, where the Catholic communities are growing". I live in a Protestant dominated area, It's hard to see this strength. But it is reassuring to know.

How do you guys feel about St. Augustine's Confessions?
... It lacks the beating heart and living character that makes life what it is, that same character that St. Augustine had so vividly infused into his work. When I read his prose, I'm almost brought back to my own tragedies and sufferings. To my moments of greatest weakness. And when I read of St. Augustine grieving but overcoming the tragedy of his mother's death, It really makes me feels like I'm a part of something bigger, that bearing the Christian way through the witness of my life, that taking up my cross and bringing something fruitful out of my own suffering is truly beautiful, and that it is a beauty that not only every man can participate in, but an enduring beauty, one that will surpass all the empires and nations of the earth. It is the Truth that is without end, always new. I suppose I appreciate St. Augustine because he made the Christian struggle and triumph something relatable, something down to earth, that even a filthy sinner such as myself could hope to grasp for. With that said, I hope your all having a great day!!! Stay holy! ✞

I haven't read the book itself, I've only studied and translated some passages, but from what I've read I wholeheartedly agree with you. I also am deeply moved by St. Augustine's mother, St. Monica, patron of parents and wayward children. Her unconditional love for her son despite his sinfulness reminds me of my loved ones supporting me despite my failures. I pray that I may embody a fraction of St. Monica's devotion.