Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[Cheeseknife]

Because it is a Biblical command to make prayers and supplications to Holy God. What God commands us to do can serve as a pointer toward what delights him. He is delighted and he is glorified when his creatures faithfully seek his intercession and intervention. The reason to pray is to glorify God by obeying him.

I also want to say that this is what separates the personal from the abstract. Prayer is a conversation with God and it personalizes and formalizes our relationship with Him.

 

[Amerikaner Teddybär]

To the Protestants of this thread, what are your thoughts on Mary, the Mother of Jesus?

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

To the Protestants of this thread, what are your thoughts on Mary, the Mother of Jesus?

A woman worth admiring, to some extent. But I deny the idea of her perpetual virginity, as well as being born without sin (as the Catholics believe). Christ is more my focus, in general worship. I only consider Mary and other figures when seeking to compare them to how I am, in my sinfulness. It helps me to appreciate the Lord's perfection a bit more.

 

[Preacher ✝]

I brought memes!

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

He is delighted and he is glorified when his creatures faithfully seek his intercession and intervention. The reason to pray is to glorify God by obeying him.

So why is it a bad thing to ask ACTUAL PEOPLE IN HEAVEN to pray to God on our behalf? The saints are far closer to God than we'll ever be in this life on account of having actually made it to Heaven and being in the direct presence of God.

 

[Dr. Kinder]

So why is it a bad thing to ask ACTUAL PEOPLE IN HEAVEN to pray to God on our behalf? The saints are far closer to God than we'll ever be in this life on account of having actually made it to Heaven and being in the direct presence of God.

Because of the implication that directing your prayers to God won't get the job done and because I'm not aware of any verse in the Bible that tells us to hand our prayers over to other human beings instead of directly to God. Christ is a sufficient and complete mediator between God and man.

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

Because of the implication that directing your prayers to God won't get the job done and because I'm not aware of any verse in the Bible that tells us to hand our prayers over to other human beings instead of directly to God. Christ is a sufficient and complete mediator between God and man.

Then why ask others to pray for you?

I feel like I'm going in a loop. Intercessory prayers are usually done for extra-emphasis after praying to God numerous times.

 

[Dr. Kinder]

Then why ask others to pray for you?

I feel like I'm going in a loop. Intercessory prayers are usually done for extra-emphasis after praying to God numerous times.

The martyrs are already in paradise and can intercede for us in prayer. I'll agree with you there. I think the concern is specifically with appealing to Mary, Queen of Heaven, as someone who can pray for us better than we can pray for ourselves. I can't understand going to Mary for that instead of going directly to the Holy Spirit. Fundamentally, it's the Spirit who makes intercessions on our behalf, perhaps by using our living brothers and sisters in Christ, or perhaps through the prayers of the martyrs. In other words it seems to me that, by praying to the Saints, a Christian is adding additional mediators between himself and God.

 

[Devout Muslim]

Because of the implication that directing your prayers to God won't get the job done and because I'm not aware of any verse in the Bible that tells us to hand our prayers over to other human beings instead of directly to God. Christ is a sufficient and complete mediator between God and man.

Paul specifically appealed for intercessory prayers from his living brothers, so we know that intercessory prayers as such are valid and don’t undermine faith in Christ.

Have I replaced Christ before God as the mediator for Quiet Guy? Did Paul put the Romans between himself and God? Nobody can be between somebody else and God because He sees all. Likewise, if I ask a saint in heaven to pray for me, God hears my request as surely as He hears the saint’s request.

I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,

 

[Agent Abe Caprine]

Can you guys pray for me? I've been thinking about how much I want a spouse lately. I broke down crying when I started reading the section in Ephesians 5 about husbands and wives at small group. I ran into Ephesians 5 two more times within about a week, and recently a sermon opened by talking about the covenant between a husband and wife. Can you pray that God sends me the person I'm meant to be with?

Dear Lord, please send Quiet Guy a boyfriend free girl.

 

[Blobby's Murder Knife]

The martyrs are already in paradise and can intercede for us in prayer. I'll agree with you there. I think the concern is specifically with appealing to Mary, Queen of Heaven, as someone who can pray for us better than we can pray for ourselves. I can't understand going to Mary for that instead of going directly to the Holy Spirit. Fundamentally, it's the Spirit who makes intercessions on our behalf, perhaps by using our living brothers and sisters in Christ, or perhaps through the prayers of the martyrs. In other words it seems to me that, by praying to the Saints, a Christian is adding additional mediators between himself and God.

In Catholic theology, we believe she is the Queen of Heaven, the new Eve, the Theotokos. She has the power to make demons and Satan himself tremble. She was born sinless to be made worthy of the job and never did sin. She is our Blessed Mother and a mother loves all of her children and wants to help. Her prayers are powerful intercessory ones and why we hold her in such high regard.

Praying to Mary and the Saints, it is just like having extra friends pray for you. God hears it all anyway.

 

[Dr. Kinder]

In Catholic theology, we believe she is the Queen of Heaven, the new Eve, the Theotokos. She has the power to make demons and Satan himself tremble. She was born sinless to be made worthy of the job and never did sin. She is our Blessed Mother and a mother loves all of her children and wants to help. Her prayers are powerful intercessory ones and why we hold her in such high regard.

Praying to Mary and the Saints, it is just like having extra friends pray for you. God hears it all anyway.

Protestants don't accept the Marian Dogmas, though. A Protestant doesn't believe Mary is sinless and perfect but rather that only Christ is. If I could find the bodily ascension of Mary in Scripture that would be one thing. But it's not there.

Furthermore, there's a verse in Kings the Catholic Church uses to allege that Jesus will look with special favor upon the prayers of his mother But in context, Solomon rejects his mother's request!

Kings 2:20 “I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.” 21 So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given in marriage to your brother Adonijah.”

In the subsequent verses, despite having promised he would heed his mother's request, he refuses it. In fact, as you can see in Kings 2:22 and onwards, Solomon is so angered by his mother's impertinent request that he vows to kill Adonijah for having dared to put Solomon's mother up to this scheme!

So to someone who doesn't think the Holy Magisterium of the Catholic Church is a factual or accurate preservation of the Christian faith, the notion of praying to Mary is unfathomable.

Why does Holy Mother Church misrepresent the relevant verse from Kings as meaning the exact opposite of what it does? The inevitable conclusion is that no real evidence exists and so the stated justification must grasp at straws.

 

[Blobby's Murder Knife]

The problem with Sola Scriptura is that ignores the great contributions of the Church Fathers to building the framework of the Church.

"In post-apostolic times the indications of Scripture are developed more and more fully. The basic notion throughout is that of Mary's motherhood. The actual title of Deipara, the bringer-forth of God, seems to be found for the first time in Hippolytus of Rome, at the beginning of the 3rd century. The sense of the term becomes clearer and clearer in the Christological controversies of the 3rd and 4th centuries and becomes so well established that the Council of Ephesus could use it as the hall-mark of orthodox Christology in contrast to Nestorianism, which endangered the unity of the structure of Jesus. The term expresses the personal unity of Jesus, and represents a confession of faith in the true humanity of Jesus against Gnostic spiritualizations, and in the true Godhead of Jesus against Judaism. The method of the communication of idioms was employed in the use of the term Deipara... When the term Diapara, bringer-forth of God, was used in a heretical sense by the Monophysites, it was displaced by the term Mother of God [Theotokos] ... It paved the way for the concept of Mary as the spiritual mother of all the faithful.

As regards the perpetual virginity of Mary there was no fully general consensus before the Council of Ephesus. It was not taught by Tertullian, Origen or Jerome. But it was upheld by Irenaeus... Basil held that the contrary opinion was not against the faith... From the 4th century on, her perpetual virginity is often mentioned. After the 7th century (Latern Synod of 649), the formula of "virginity before, in and after giving birth" came into use... No express testimony to Mary's freedom from original sin is found in the West before about A.D. 1000. Bernard of Clairvaux, a fervent admirer of Mary, and Thomas Aquinas remained doubtful." Article by Michael Schmaus, headed "Mariology" in Encyclopedia of Theology Ed. by Karl Rhaner, pp893-901

And they [the townspeople] spoke, wondering, (not knowing that He was the son of a virgin, or not believing it even if it was told to them, but supposing that He was the son of Joseph the carpenter,) “is not this the carpenter’s son?”5262 And depreciating the whole of what appeared to be His nearest kindred, they said, “Is not His mother called Mary? And His brethren, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us?”5263 They thought, then, that He was the son of Joseph and Mary. But some say, basing it on a tradition in the Gospel according to Peter,5264 as it is entitled, or “The Book of James,”5265 that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honour of Mary in virginity to the end, so that that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word which said, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee,”5266 might not know intercourse with a man after that the Holy Ghost came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first-fruit among men of the purity which consists in chastity, and Mary among women; for it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first-fruit of virginity. Origen on Matthew

1. In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.”3747 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,”3748 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age,3749 and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.... For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith. Against Heresies Book III Chapter XXII

I haven't seen 1 Kings used as justification as it is a bit flimsy. Yes, you should try to honor the wishes of your mother and Blessed Mother, but no one is going to force you to. Up to you. We don't worship her just believes that she has a particular ability to intercede as she is the Theotokos and the Son should be obedient to His mother. She can't force Him to do anything obviously. But He will listen.

This is a very through interview on Mary and why we venerate her. If you haven't ever watched Pints with Aquinas, it is pretty good and also watched by some Protestants.

 

[Sissyagamben]

@Quiet Guy praying for you!! Live without sexual immorality and according to the will of God and you will meet her so soon. God would love for you to have a wonderful Christian wife whom you’ll have Christian kids with.

Do you go to church? That’s honestly a good place to meet good women, who have family values and won’t abort your kids or show her pussy online or trans your kids. (Cautious about many protestant churches then, lol). Many Catholic Churches also have RCIA programs for adults, and even if you are already baptized and confirmed most places will still let you participate just to have a community/renew your faith. If you call them now there’s still chance you can join a program this year. By experience once you are adamant about having a Christian spouse and strength your faith in the mean time, they appear super fast, miraculously.

 

[Quiet Guy]

@Quiet Guy praying for you!! Live without sexual immorality and according to the will of God and you will meet her so soon. God would love for you to have a wonderful Christian wife whom you’ll have Christian kids with.

Do you go to church? That’s honestly a good place to meet good women, who have family values and won’t abort your kids or show her pussy online or trans your kids. (Cautious about many protestant churches then, lol). Many Catholic Churches also have RCIA programs for adults, and even if you are already baptized and confirmed most places will still let you participate just to have a community/renew your faith. If you call them now there’s still chance you can join a program this year. By experience once you are adamant about having a Christian spouse and strength your faith in the mean time, they appear super fast, miraculously.

Thanks. Part of my problem is that I have trouble forming strong, affectionate bonds with others, and I'm afraid of running out of time. I've never even dated anyone either. With that said, I feel like God is doing something; after I made that last post I Peter 3 popped up in the online Bible I use, and it begins with a section about wives and husbands. It feels like I might need a miracle. Also, please pray for me to have faith.

 

[Sissyagamben]

Thanks. Part of my problem is that I have trouble forming strong, affectionate bonds with others, and I'm afraid of running out of time. I've never even dated anyone either. With that said, I feel like God is doing something; after I made that last post I Peter 3 popped up in the online Bible I use, and it begins with a section about wives and husbands. It feels like I might need a miracle. Also, please pray for me to have faith.

This Sunday’s mass in the Catholic Church talks about Godly wives too! The first reading is quotes from Proverb 31:10-31.

Through God all things are possible my brother, and a good wife is such a great thing to want. I find it much easier to have faith after I get more involved in faith events. I used to still be cynical about church institutions for a while even after admitting to myself I’m a Christian. My whole worldview changed so drastically and so much and my faith increased so much ever since I started going to church seriously, it’s honestly insane, in a good way. Not just my thoughts and feelings though, other things in my life just fall into place and improved sooo much. Once you start and show your sincerity and commitment God will notice for sure and positive changes will happen so fast it’ll be hard not to be more faithful. It’s through these changes that I’m more and more sure and confident.

I thought for a long time, when I was edgy atheist, that that’s some placebo effect or delusion or peer influence or groupthink or whatever, but it definitely was not. No secular ideology has produced such genuine and SWIFT positive changes in me. This is so different from anything man-made. It’s the law and the will of the Lord of this world, who is in control of all things. Created all things. Through Him all things are possible, and it’s definitely possible for Him to send you your wife. For the small price to believe in Him and live the way He wants, which is no real price at all.

It’s really a crazy journey, and your wife may not come next few weeks or month, but she for sure is coming.

Spoiler: Pl

I’ve become much softer, positive, open, loving, and able to give myself, AND with faith, there was honesty no way I wouldn’t have found my spouse. I had this epiphany one day that God has created me, and He wants everyone to have a spouse, he has definitely also created my husband. It is actually delusional of me to think I won’t find him. And very, very soon after I did.

There were definitely moments of despair and doubts, but they get easier to deal with everyday through perseverance.

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

by praying to the Saints, a Christian is adding additional mediators between himself and God.

The only arbiter is Christ, saints don't make decisions for us on behalf of God; you aren't adding extra jurors to "sweeten the deal", you ask for intercession out of humility.

There is a reason why certain saints are patrons of certain things. When you ask St. Seraphim for intercession, you're asking God to grant you his serenity; when you ask St. George for intercession, you're asking God to grant you his endurance of hardships; when you ask St. Nektarios for intercession, you're asking God to grant you his selflessness; when you ask Prophet Elijah for intercession, you ask God to grant you his obedience.

 

[Dr. Kinder]

Where was the Holy Spirit when both the Catholic and Protestant authorities conspired in the juridical murder of Miguel Serveto?

Does anyone in this thread allege that God was pleased and Christ was glorified by the behavior of the Protestant and Catholic authorities when Serveto was put to death because he said "Jesus is the Son of the Eternal God" instead of saying "Jesus is the Eternal Son of God"?

Now it cannot be disputed that Christ was glorified by this murderous episode. Serveto's faithfulness unto death, including his dying screams as the flames slowly consumed him, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me!", is an eternal testament to the holiness of God. Serveto's conscience was ultimately inviolable and he died screaming the name of his savior. Rather than submitting to the politically-motivated agenda of wicked men with bloody hands, he gave what his conscience convinced him was a truthful and accurate testimony of Jesus Christ. Christ was glorified on that pyre and Serveto shared in that glory because he shared in the cup of Christ's persecutions.

But was the Catholic Church, which had previously attempted to murder Serveto, glorified? Were the Protestant authorities, who ended up being the ones to put him to death, glorified? No, all of them stand condemned, in ruinous shame. Protestant and Catholic religious authorities alike permanently ceded their moral and legal legitimacy as a result of their conduct throughout the persecution and execution of Serveto.

May ruin and defeat consume every church that still, to this day, condemns Serveto as a worthless heretic. His blood cries out from the earth for vengeance and will continue to do so until the religious authorities deeply and honestly repent.

 

[Aztec Death Squad]

-snip-

Adding to this digital laying on of hands, remember 1 Corinthians 10:13 and 1 Corinthians 7, especially 32-33

32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife—

When our prayers are not answered in the way we want, we must pray for the strength to be at peace with his will.

The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.

 

[Blobby's Murder Knife]

Where was the Holy Spirit when both the Catholic and Protestant authorities conspired in the juridical murder of Miguel Serveto?

Does anyone in this thread allege that God was pleased and Christ was glorified by the behavior of the Protestant and Catholic authorities when Serveto was put to death because he said "Jesus is the Son of the Eternal God" instead of saying "Jesus is the Eternal Son of God"?

Now it cannot be disputed that Christ was glorified by this murderous episode. Serveto's faithfulness unto death, including his dying screams as the flames slowly consumed him, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me!", is an eternal testament to the holiness of God. Serveto's conscience was ultimately inviolable and he died screaming the name of his savior. Rather than submitting to the politically-motivated agenda of wicked men with bloody hands, he gave what his conscience convinced him was a truthful and accurate testimony of Jesus Christ. Christ was glorified on that pyre and Serveto shared in that glory because he shared in the cup of Christ's persecutions.

But was the Catholic Church, which had previously attempted to murder Serveto, glorified? Were the Protestant authorities, who ended up being the ones to put him to death, glorified? No, all of them stand condemned, in ruinous shame. Protestant and Catholic religious authorities alike permanently ceded their moral and legal legitimacy as a result of their conduct throughout the persecution and execution of Serveto.

May ruin and defeat consume every church that still, to this day, condemns Serveto as a worthless heretic. His blood cries out from the earth for vengeance and will continue to do so until the religious authorities deeply and honestly repent.

The Church is the bride of Christ, but He knew that she was going to be run by a bunch of fallen creatures that would endlessly piss Him off. What was the first thing Peter did after being handed the keys to the Church? Piss our Blessed Lord off. But He stuck by His decision anyway to let us idiots run it to the best of our ability. There are some Popes I would figure would end up in Hell, but doesn't change the truth of the Christ through His bride. It means we should try to do better. In the end, we all depend on the Divine Love and Mercy of God, which is infinite. If it really was that Serveto was wrongly murdered, he would end up in Heaven. If his murderers died unrepentant, then they may have to face the Wrath of God eventually. I don't really concern myself with those things and trust only that God knows what He is doing. I just hope we do the best we can to do good on Earth for the Glory of God. Anymore than that is out of hands in the fallen world full of temptations into mortal sin.