Should lolicon / shotacon be considered drawn child pornography?

[Kari Kamiya]

@Roasted would be so proud to see his creation gain new life in such a retarded way.

I am still baffled how classic ones had little girls turn into grown-ups to do stuff. It is a skeevy concept by itself.

This and @WelperHelper99's similar comment rustled my jimmies as a magical girl fan.

It's not much of a concept anymore, but waaaaay back when before Sailor Moon changed the game (although this was still true with Sailor Moon), magical transformations used compacts or other "beauty" items, and it wasn't uncommon for the girl to transform into a woman, usually one of a professional like a flight attendant, a teacher, nurse, policewoman, news reporter, secretary, what have you. It was an idealistic image, but young girls were looking for role-models not just their mothers, and these plus the use of makeup were a sign of a mature woman whom men would also (ideally) respect because she could still handle herself in various situations. It was seen more as romantic than erotic because it's through the eyes of a child.

It also was a way to sell toys, and get girls thinking about what they want to be when they grow up, but it's not much different from Barbie dolls in telling girls "You can do and be anything when you grow up." And yet, while adolescence was a common theme, it was also still important that the character had a childhood, she just needed to learn what it means to grow up. Magical girl series were almost always coming-of-age at their core, but otaku made it certain that eventually magical girls aimed at men became a thing (Cutey Honey may have played a role in this, though that is also still popular with girls). Dream Hunter Rem is considered the first magical girl anime strictly for men, and that's why the genre has gotten muddled for newcomers.

Many classic magical girls are innocent, and will always still be. Japanese be weird as fuck, but they at least knew how to make magical girls family-oriented back then.

 

[Georgio Cocklord]

I am still baffled how classic ones had little girls turn into grown-ups to do stuff. It is a skeevy concept by itself.

Its a very old concept predating anime, its the idea that kids entertainment have kid characters who turn into adult characters, usually super powered adult characters, both as a power fantasy and a way to explain adulthood to children. Nowadays it is explained away as pedophilia cause pedophilia became a rampant thing post the 80s but during 40s and 50s America or 80s Japan, its not a thing which crosses someones mind. The earliest occurrence I can remember is Captain Marvel or Marvelman from the 50s who later became Shazam as a part of DC who was actually a kid who had to say the word kimota to turn into the character. Im sure the concept predates even that in stuff like Alice in Wonderland and its also a huge part of the super sentai genre and to an extent Power Rangers. Nowadays that kinda concept, kid characters becoming adults or put in adult predicaments, will be seen as pedophilia so haram which is pretty sad cause its an interesting concept for kids fiction and damn pedos had to ruin it. Not to defend Shota and Lolicon cause I dont like em but its an interesting narrative concept. Also this association is funny cause it is exactly one of the accusations leveled at superhero comics in the 50s, the idea of teenage sidekicks in spandex implied that teenagers were groomed into being the gay sex slaves of superheroes.

 

[Starved Artist]

Speaking as a dude who did a lot of porn commissions back in the day; At this point in time, I frankly don't give a fuck about imaginary characters at the end of the day, they're as a good as new. Real people, don't have that benefit.
When Alice and Bob want to escalate their freaky fetish from loli/shota porn , then , pretending to be children, to actually involving real children; Then we get the noose. Do whatever you want to each other in private, buy all the pacifers, dolls, I don't know about it. I don't care. Bring it out into public? Now I care.
Contact real children? Then I care.

I'm tired of all this jerking off over secondary targets . The same way being a COD player doesn't make you a soldier and having an instagram doesn't make you a model;

If

• Watching violent movies and playing violent video games, do not make you a soldier, serial killer or murderer, until you actually kill someone.
• Watching how to build it videos, documentaries and instructional, do not make you an expert, until you actually build something that works/ have a piece of paper that says you're an expert.

Then.

• You can wank to a drawing of a dog, until you fuck or attempt to fuck dog, you're still not a dog fucker. You're gross , weird, you can yiff in hell, but you are not going to get your teeth knocked out until you touch a dog.
• You can wank to drawings of people mutilated and turned inside out, you're still not a corpse fucker.
• You can wank to drawings of kids, you're still not a kid fucker. You can be judged, mocked, ridiculed, shunned and generally bullied in all forms, but you're not a real pedo.

The moment you take that step into trying to actualize your obsession, it's rope time.

Rope is expensive these days, so I don't want to waste it on some loser beating off to babs bunny or lisa simpson when YiffDaFazbear over here is trying to meet kids in discord and roblox.

Note: If people who beat off to loli and shota want to get involved in real MAP and Pedo shit, they can't complain about getting caught in the crossfire.
Second note: I hate shotafags more than lolifags. At least lolifags know they're being watched. Shotafags do not fucking care and are an absolute blight on any anime website that selectively bans loli but does nothing to stop shota shit. The number of gay dudes defending their shota will always exceed the number of men and women defending loli. Fucking fedeverse and reddit are just awful.

 

[Tablet County]

In fact That's my question: what benifit does lolicon bring humanity?

The same benefit that Kiwi Farms brings to humanity. Jack shit, but it exists anyway.

The mental gymnastics they go through to claim they're not pedos is quite amusing.

Kinda telling that men who jerk it to outright yaoi don't insist on being straight cause they know they’re bisexual at minimum. At most you get “are traps gay?” being presented as a philosophical question. Usually ends with them accepting they might be bisexual, even if not attracted to real men.

But it’s always Lolifags who play mental gymnastics while coping.

That's 'cause being a fag is socially acceptable and being a pedo is reprehensible. People tend to not see themselves as reprehensible.

 

[The Tall Man]

Rope is expensive these days,

You can reuse rope, but why use rope if you can use the cute and funny woodchipper.

 

[WelperHelper99]

The same benefit that Kiwi Farms brings to humanity. Jack shit, but it exists anyway

Counter, the farms contains information on reprehensible people that is in the public interest.

 

[Tablet County]

Counter, the farms contains information on reprehensible people that is in the public interest.

Counter counter, that's cope and you know it.

 

[skykiii]

The mental gymnastics they go through to claim they're not pedos is quite amusing.

Kinda telling that men who jerk it to outright yaoi don't insist on being straight cause they know they’re bisexual at minimum. At most you get “are traps gay?” being presented as a philosophical question. Usually ends with them accepting they might be bisexual, even if not attracted to real men.

But it’s always Lolifags who play mental gymnastics while coping.

Posts like this are what made the thread boring. So many people resorting to this same empty strawman because the actual argument made (that banning things out of "moral considerations" would start a slippery slope of censorship) is, I guess, just too reasonable a point and being objectively wrong makes your dick shrivel up.

Come back when you're ready to talk to real people and not just the scarecrows in your head.

Go talk about it in public under your real name if you think people expressing disgust don’t speak for all of society. You’re disgusting.

>Thinks he speaks for all of society.

>Is on a subsection of the forum that even most regulars think is the most autistic part of the whole site.

>And this is on a forum that was already pushed to being a place you can only access via TOR and which most of society avoids because they fell for propoganda about it being evil.

What color is the sky in your world?

And while art maybe trying to effect some form of change (i.e. propaganda),

Honestly, I would not accept "all art is propoganda" at face value. That sounds like something SJWs say, and we've seen how it affects them. What's the propoganda element of Super Mario Bros? What's the propoganda element of Disney's Little Mermaid? That board game James Rolfe made up as a kid--Deadly Danger Dungeon--what's the propoganda there?

The idea that "all art is propoganda" tends to be advanced only by people who want an excuse to control art. And I've already pointed out that a lot of what our opponents are saying has little basis in reality.

Hey that doesn't sound like a bad idea then you remember that most people would gladly force computers to follow the CURRENT YEAR rules with extreme prejudice. I'd rather a government that has names and address tbh.

Good point, I don't know what the hell I was thinking last night.

Welcome to the Internet, no one actually believes in things, they just wear them like skin-suits to achieve their goals. Many such cases, very sad.

Indeed, seeing it reminds me of this early Conan the Barbarian story (the original Robert E. Howard ones, not the later bastardizations) where Conan mentions that some official figure tried to compel him to do things he did not want to do by espousing a lot of these high-minded ideals... Conan's answer was just to lop the man's head off with a sword and then run the other way.

Another quote from Conan stories I often recall: "As a rule, civilized men are not as polite as barbarians since they don't live with an ever-present danger of having their head separated from their neck."

 

[WelperHelper99]

This and @WelperHelper99's similar comment rustled my jimmies as a magical girl fan.

It's not much of a concept anymore, but waaaaay back when before Sailor Moon changed the game (although this was still true with Sailor Moon), magical transformations used compacts or other "beauty" items, and it wasn't uncommon for the girl to transform into a woman, usually one of a professional like a flight attendant, a teacher, nurse, policewoman, news reporter, secretary, what have you. It was an idealistic image, but young girls were looking for role-models not just their mothers, and these plus the use of makeup were a sign of a mature woman whom men would also (ideally) respect because she could still handle herself in various situations. It was seen more as romantic than erotic because it's through the eyes of a child.

It also was a way to sell toys, and get girls thinking about what they want to be when they grow up, but it's not much different from Barbie dolls in telling girls "You can do and be anything when you grow up." And yet, while adolescence was a common theme, it was also still important that the character had a childhood, she just needed to learn what it means to grow up. Magical girl series were almost always coming-of-age at their core, but otaku made it certain that eventually magical girls aimed at men became a thing (Cutey Honey may have played a role in this, though that is also still popular with girls). Dream Hunter Rem is considered the first magical girl anime strictly for men, and that's why the genre has gotten muddled for newcomers.

Many classic magical girls are innocent, and will always still be. Japanese be weird as fuck

Listen... I can get the concept of magical girls and what the original target demographic was. That said, every weeb I've met into SM has been a guy. And it has fit the neckbeard stereotype. Otaku took something pure and made it very skeevy. It makes it hard talking anime with people, because magical girls and sweaty dudes is one of the first things they think of

 

[Kari Kamiya]

That said, every weeb I've met into SM has been a guy. And it has fit the neckbeard stereotype.

Doug Walker was a teenager when Sailor Moon aired on American TV, and his comments plus Barenaked Ladies' "One Week" suggests teen boys were getting excited over girls in miniskirts (since Serena and gang were about 14 at the start). They may have gotten over it, but young pre-pubescent boys who actually grew up watching it have been a bit... horny towards it to various degrees depending on context (just look at how the villains are dressed, for instance). Some are legit fans, some are ironic fans (probably the source of male bearded crossplayers, I've seen an adult crossplayer of Misty in person before), some are coomers. It just depends on the person.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Doug Walker was a teenager when Sailor Moon aired on American TV, and his comments plus Barenaked Ladies' "One Week" suggests teen boys were getting excited over girls in miniskirts (since Serena and gang were about 14 at the start). They may have gotten over it, but young pre-pubescent boys who actually grew up watching it have been a bit... horny towards it to various degrees depending on context (just look at how the villains are dressed, for instance). Some are legit fans, some are ironic fans (probably the source of male bearded crossplayers, I've seen an adult crossplayer of Misty in person before), some are coomers. It just depends on the person.

I actually watched the Channel Awesome review of it in high school. It creeped me out to say the least. I can believe fully a lot of people, it's just a show they grew up with. Others are just coomers yapping about Japan's age of concent making the ages of the girls ok they're jerking off to because they also power up to adult mode in battle. I can see both sides of the coin, I just see the bad actors more admittedly.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Did I ever say people fapping to loli weren't pedophiles? Did I?

Here:

Secondly, the whole "lolicon turns people into pedophiles" bullshit. Art can not make people something they don't already have the capability for. This is no different than Jack Thompson arguing that playing Grand Theft Auto will make people go out and steal cars or that watching Superman will make kids think they can fly if they put on a cape.

You're arguing that if you play GTA that it doesn't make you a car thief any more than looking at loli makes you a pedophile.

And you're half right, the people who play GTA aren't necessarily car jackers nor are they playing GTA as a substitute for doing the real thing, or anything like that, and it is unlikely they are going to be influenced to desire to do so by playing it.

However, sex is a different subject than violence, killing and robbing are violent behaviors distinct from sexual behaviors, so you're conflating them here with your comparison. The likelihood of someone looking at loli being pedophilic is very high, the likelihood of someone playing GTA being murderous is very low.

What have churches become notorious for again?

For having less of a problem with that than public schools?

I've been suspecting for awhile that the hostility and focus on lolicon is two factors:

Do I seem to have "hostility" towards it? This subject is just one of many I debate, and while I'm against it I don't feel as if I'm coming off as overly passionate in my arguments. I'm more against it on principle, porn is nothing compared to stuff like abortion, since actual human lives are at stake.

So, nice try, you can't actually articulate a proper argument so you resort to spinning people's disapproval as somehow being evidence of something else. It's pathetic lol.

First, secret enjoyment mixed with shame, sort of like Frollo in Hunchback of Notre Dame and how he kept blaming Esmerelda for his boner.

The logic of "I'm defending loli and don't enjoy it, but the opposition does" comes off about as stupid as possible, frankly.

Anyone who enjoys it should feel shame and keep it a secret, and all the better if they oppose it. I'd respect that a lot more than someone like you getting mad that people are rightly morally opposed, defending the sacred right to loli with tears in your eyes. Guess what, you don't have a right to it anywhere in the Constitution.

Second, probably a bit of seething resentment that--while the quality of Japanese output can be debated--pop culture still largely prefers Japan's stuff to homegrown American work. And then when America last tried to prove it could compete with Japan on an even keel, what we instead got were Avatar the Last Airbender and Teen Titans, shallow cases of "monkey see monkey do." The last time America's own output was genuinely better than Japan's was in the 1980s.

Japan curb stomps the west in terms of media, and I'd say Japan's output was better even in the 80's.

Trying to use the word moral in that way is pointless, it's easy to say we should have a moral society, and everyone can agree with that but then have a hundred different images of what that society looks like.
I think the moment you start trying to clamp on fiction is it when it crosses over from being moral to being self-righteous.

Then let the best vision of a moral society win. Things certainly seem worse virtually across the board than in the 50's, wouldn't you say? Crime is up, self-reported happiness is down, and we have a shrinking middle class, all of which, and more, trends with the push towards progressive secular values.

I find it impossible to look at the absolute state of society and somehow conclude things are better.

Still lower than school teachers by a significant margin fedora tipper.

And that's not counting the LGBT grooming they do openly as part of the curriculum and culture, just direct physical abuse. Every single public school student is a victim.

Watching violent movies and playing violent video games, do not make you a soldier, serial killer or murderer, until you actually kill someone.

Conflating sex and violence, two different things, isn't how it works. Parents would rather little Timmy see notoriously violent films like Robocop than find a Playboy, that's reality, people treat them differently because they are different subjects.

I hate shotafags more than lolifags. At least lolifags know they're being watched. Shotafags do not fucking care and are an absolute blight on any anime website that selectively bans loli but does nothing to stop shota shit. The number of gay dudes defending their shota will always exceed the number of men and women defending loli. Fucking fedeverse and reddit are just awful.

Me too, but only because I hate faggots and it's an additional layer of degeneracy, both should still be banned.

That's 'cause being a fag is socially acceptable and being a pedo is reprehensible.

Liberals normalized the former, now they're working on the latter, you'll have them to thank when the discussion in 20 years is "That's 'cause being a pedo is socially acceptable and being a necrophile is reprehensible."

Counter, the farms contains information on reprehensible people that is in the public interest.

Absolutely true, KF is more important than people give it credit for.

 

[WelperHelper99]

And that's not counting the LGBT grooming they do openly as part of the curriculum and culture, just direct physical abuse. Every single public school student is a victim.

Completely true. School is little more than indoctrination anymore

Conflating sex and violence, two different things, isn't how it works. Parents would rather little Timmy see notoriously violent films like Robocop than find a Playboy, that's reality, people treat them differently because they are different subjects.

Violence is a part of nature. If you ever have gone hunting, gotten in a fight at school, etc, you've been a part of that. Kids understand what Violence is. I'd argue you probably shouldn't show a 4 year old SAW, but you get my point. A kid has no clue what to make of tentacle loli rape. That'll fuck him up.

Absolutely true, KF is more important than people give it credit for.

If it wasn't important, people wouldn't steal from this site as a source so often.

 

[ITK]

• Watching violent movies and playing violent video games, do not make you a soldier, serial killer or murderer, until you actually kill someone.
• Watching how to build it videos, documentaries and instructional, do not make you an expert, until you actually build something that works/ have a piece of paper that says you're an expert.

Then.

• You can wank to a drawing of a dog, until you fuck or attempt to fuck dog, you're still not a dog fucker. You're gross , weird, you can yiff in hell, but you are not going to get your teeth knocked out until you touch a dog.
• You can wank to drawings of people mutilated and turned inside out, you're still not a corpse fucker.
• You can wank to drawings of kids, you're still not a kid fucker. You can be judged, mocked, ridiculed, shunned and generally bullied in all forms, but you're not a real pedo.

This is the strangest post I've ever seen. Buddy if you jerk off to cartoon dogs, you are a zoophile. If you jerk of to cartoon corpses, you are a necrophile. And, finally, if you jerk off to cartoon child porn, you are a pedophile. How can this concept be beyond some people? If you jerk off to yaoi, you are categorically a gay man. That's the exact equivalency to lolicon and pedophilia. You are attracted to cartoon children. Even if you have no attraction to real children whatsoever, you are still, by definition, a type of pedophile.

 

[Fruttasecca]

If you jerk off to yaoi, you are categorically a gay man.

Woah, now lets dont jump to conclusions

 

[The Ugly One]

This is the strangest post I've ever seen. Buddy if you jerk off to cartoon dogs, you are a zoophile. If you jerk of to cartoon corpses, you are a necrophile. And, finally, if you jerk off to cartoon child porn, you are a pedophile. How can this concept be beyond some people? If you jerk off to yaoi, you are categorically a gay man. That's the exact equivalency to lolicon and pedophilia. You are attracted to cartoon children. Even if you have no attraction to real children whatsoever, you are still, by definition, a type of pedophile.

"Heh, I only masturbate to drawings of guys shitting on each other. That doesn't make me a gay scat fetishist. Checkmate, bigots."

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Honestly, I would not accept "all art is propoganda" at face value. That sounds like something SJWs say, and we've seen how it affects them. What's the propoganda element of Super Mario Bros? What's the propoganda element of Disney's Little Mermaid? That board game James Rolfe made up as a kid--Deadly Danger Dungeon--what's the propoganda there?

Yeah, I wasn't trying to call all art propaganda, just using propaganda as an example of art that is trying to effect some kind of real world change on people.

Buddy if you jerk off to cartoon dogs, you are a zoophile. If you jerk of to cartoon corpses, you are a necrophile. And, finally, if you jerk off to cartoon child porn, you are a pedophile. How can this concept be beyond some people?

Because people who jerk off to the cartoon version don't necessarily jerk off to the real version. They are not 1:1 equivalents. People who jerk off to tentacle hentai don't generally find a woman having sex with a real world octopus attractive.

What you and others don't seem to understand is that getting off to cartoon characters is a completely separate fetish to getting off to the real thing. Its called Fictosexuality or, more commonly, Toonophilia. Its a completely separate paraphilia to getting off to real world necrophilia or bestiality. This is why getting off to hentai in general is a niche fetish in and of itself.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

I'd argue you probably shouldn't show a 4 year old SAW, but you get my point

Sure, but I wasn't saying it's good to show them violent media, just that it's the lesser of two evils.

People who jerk off to tentacle hentai don't generally find a woman having sex with a real world octopus attractive.

Maybe if it's abstract enough, but what if it's photorealistic CGI? How could you argue they wouldn't find it attractive of they watched actual real-life video of it? You don't concede enough ground to common sense, relying quite heavily on the technicality that something isn't real, and therefore it doesn't speak to an actual desire.

When I see a photorealistic image of a steak, I like it because I like steak. If it's a stick figure steak, it won't stoke my appetite. Humans have sexual appetites too, and so it works the same way, if I see a beautiful woman generated with top of the line graphics, I will find her attractive because I am attracted to women. If I see a stick figure woman, it will do nothing for me.

What you and others don't seem to understand is that getting off to cartoon characters is a completely separate fetish to getting off to the real thing. Its called Fictosexuality or, more commonly, Toonophilia. Its a completely separate paraphilia to getting off to real world necrophilia or bestiality. This is why getting off to hentai in general is a niche fetish in and of itself

In the above case "toonophilia" wouldn't even apply because the subject is practically indistinguishable from reality. Again, you can argue that more abstract styles might be defensible, but you need to draw a line somewhere, and "being fictional" isn't agreeable.

I don't think photorealism is even a requirement, it's just the most extreme end of the spectrum from stick figures. I remember you wouldn't budge on this way back too.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Sure, but I wasn't saying it's good to show them violent media, just that it's the lesser of two evils

Oh I don't disagree, I'm just saying I'm going to be more comfortable showing a kid action heroes beating eachother up, because at least they get that.

Maybe if it's abstract enough, but what if it's photorealistic CGI? How could you argue they wouldn't find it attractive of they watched actual real-life video of it? You don't concede enough ground to common sense, relying quite heavily on the technicality that something isn't real, and therefore it doesn't speak to an actual desire.

When I see a photorealistic image of a steak, I like it because I like steak. If it's a stick figure steak, it won't stoke my appetite. Humans have sexual appetites too, and so it works the same way, if I see a beautiful woman generated with top of the line graphics, I will find her attractive because I am attracted to women. If I see a stick figure woman, it will do nothing for me.

The thing is with how absolutely advanced graphics tech is now, ad a dash of AI, and you could get a pretty photo realistic image of a woman fucking a octopus. Same with a naked child. Which has gotten people arrested at this point, because it's becoming indistinguishable from reality, making essentially a CSAM farm.

 

[Uncle Buck]

people who jerk off to the cartoon version don't necessarily jerk off to the real version.

Evidently you’re not familiar with “real life hentai”.