Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Scott Ritter obviously has some creds via his military training / experience and his role as weapons inspector, but the Russians patently don't seem to get that people tend to be visceral towards pedos. His double conviction suggests someone fixated in that state.
Even his weapons inspector role is fairly non-credible.
He basically flip-flopped from "Saddam has loads of WMDs and Iraq can rapidly manufacture & deploy chemical & bioweapons within a month" to "What!?! Saddam NEVER had WMDs! It was all a lie!!!"
Like brah, you were the one lying then.
 
Even his weapons inspector role is fairly non-credible.
He basically flip-flopped from "Saddam has loads of WMDs and Iraq can rapidly manufacture & deploy chemical & bioweapons within a month" to "What!?! Saddam NEVER had WMDs! It was all a lie!!!"
Like brah, you were the one lying then.
He did turn publicly tankie over what was generally understood as a pretext manufacturing job, after playing his role passably.
 
He did turn publicly tankie over what was generally understood as a pretext manufacturing job, after playing his role passably.
That's kind of what I'm saying.
Regardless of your opinion on the capabilities of Saddam's Chemical Kurd-Away! rockets or their ability to continue production, fit them with biological & "dirty bomb" warheads, etc., you have to admit that AT SOME POINT Scott Ritter lied about it.

Either he lied while he was at the job, and only told the truth after, OR he told close-enough-to-the-truth at the job, then only lied about it after when it became en vogue to start ripping on the Iraq War.
 
That's kind of what I'm saying.
Regardless of your opinion on the capabilities of Saddam's Chemical Kurd-Away! rockets or their ability to continue production, fit them with biological & "dirty bomb" warheads, etc., you have to admit that AT SOME POINT Scott Ritter lied about it.

Either he lied while he was at the job, and only told the truth after, OR he told close-enough-to-the-truth at the job, then only lied about it after when it became en vogue to start ripping on the Iraq War.
Seemed the latter. After the fact clout chasing. Now he's famed as Putin's favorite pedo.

Putin praising his tribal savages in Ukraine, Lukashenko calls himself an 'Orthodox Atheist' (likely Putin too but the Belarus dictator might be more honest here), No ceasefire talk now. Ukraine holding their trans-Dnipro bridgehead like at Krynky, helped in part by the recent destruction of SU-34s, and after the Japanese FM's visit, a notable mostly civil aid package is agreed (like 5 gas turbines, 7 transformers).

 
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But you will likely vote for these politicians. Who else? You have no choice basically, it's not like you'd choose Biden over Trump based on Biden wanting to continue to fund Ukraine.
All those Republicans got in because of MAGA types unhappy with Ukraine getting money.
That's another false assumption; I'm far from being the type who cares enough to vote, and if I do I'm not under any illusions that my vote will make a lick of difference. I used to participate in the process a while ago on the local level, but in the past 20 years or so even piddly local elections have become pointlessly partisan & are sold (one way or another) to the highest bidder.

Sperging about any of it into the void is a pointless endeavor, and I'm pretty sure the people who make policy aren't going to read this forum and/or care enough to change anything. All we can do is private citizens is try to work outside official channels, and keep doing it regardless of what the stooges in Washington or Europe do.
I personally know two men who ship traditional arms to Ukraine from America. It is a bit convoluted and one was extremely worried about the ATF process but once he did one successfully, it was nothing to him. No where near the level of country sponsored packages but he is guaranteed to get cheaper arms than what is avaliable in Ukraine, and its what soldiers want (barretts, scars, etc). The big issue exporting is Ukraines laws and bureaucracy (the same bureaucracies its citizens/soldiers hate). If I had a legal registered entity in Ukraine I would be supplying arms myself.
I was thinking more along the lines of heavier artillery, not really small arms. Back in the beginning I was told that it's much easier, faster, and cheaper to just send funds, especially to avoid the risk of high-dollar equipment being "diverted" or lost. My friends over there have always been pretty adamant about not sending valuable stuff like optics or drones for those reasons, although cheaper things like TA-50 or medical supplies are more appropriate. It just takes a long time and units move often enough that their mail is just sent to Kyiv or Kharkiv & they send someone to pick if up every couple days or weeks.

But yeah, I do know a shop owner who still paid for a crate of ARs for Ukraine, and after the check cleared the unit went into Kyiv & did an unboxing video for the guys. They had originally looked into sending a bunch of rifles already on-hand, but exporting them would've been a bridge too far. It worked out in the end, but you just gotta be sure (as possible) the people on the other end are legit.

Unfortunately, I also know a couple people who got taken for their money, and in one case donations were even sent to a Russian posing as a Ukrainian soldier.
 
We are spending billions trying to replace the ammunition we are sending them you retards.
Yes, in the United States where most of the money is being spent to build up industrial infrastructure. If you want to parse which infrastructure is worth federal investment that would be interesting but blanket statements amounting to "the American Federal Government shouldn't invest in local manufacturing" come off as short sighted. Especially at a time like this where an increasing amount of on-shoring of manufacturing is occurring in the United States and it is expected to continue over the next decade. Investing on rebuilding and expanding munitions production is also investing in the talent to build out manufacturing in other fields.

In the end a comparison should be made between investment and return. If you believe that munitions production has a zero return on investment to the United States I would strongly disagree. If you believe that the investment doesn't have an adequate return I would mildly disagree but I am open to your arguments, be they hard numbers or in generalities.

One argument for the value of the investment is the deterrence effect it would have on other powers playing fuck fuck games. If Communist China wanted to go for Taiwan then the belief that America is ready and willing to supply enormous quantities of ordnance would be a strong deterrence. In any war with Communist China the economic expenditure would be vastly greater than the past and proposed expenditure towards Ukraine. Thus the probability math works out.

That deterrence effect would not exist without supporting Ukraine as there is a strong argument that if the United States had left Afghanistan with dignity then perception would be that the United States may get bored in twenty years, but will spend trillions trying to pull a bunch of pedos and goatfuckers into at least the 18th century. Instead it appeared that the United States wasn't just bored, but was so done with war to the extent it ran away with it's tail in between it's legs in full retard fashion.

If you want to go full isolation that is fine, but the United States is a Republic and the majority of Americans are not isolationists. Meaning that any isolationist policy would not stand the test of time leading to the United States having to re-enter the international stage with a weaker hand. There is also the general moral argument against Isolationism, that the world should not be left to ChiComms, Street Shitters, Vodka Monkeys, or, worst yet, the Frogs.
 
I doubt the US burned through much of its cold war stockpiles fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan was a low intensity war against insurgents. Iraq was a war against a country that didn't have much in the way of a military and then after that it turned into a low intensity conflict against an insurgency.
Twenty years of low-intensity fighting is still twenty years of fighting. You'd be surprised.
Also, after the cold war the US never really stopped producing weapons.
Actually, we pretty much did. Go look into Clinton's Dividends of Peace initiative. Defense companies were forced to merge, all our M60 tanks were dumped in the ocean to become artificial reefs, and production as a whole was sharply scaled back to the bare minimum to sustain existing stocks.
 
Actually, we pretty much did. Go look into Clinton's Dividends of Peace initiative. Defense companies were forced to merge, all our M60 tanks were dumped in the ocean to become artificial reefs, and production as a whole was sharply scaled back to the bare minimum to sustain existing stocks.
Military industrial complex replaced government's role in terms of arms production, Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Rheinmetall on top of my hwallead. US keeps HIMARS, cluster munitiyyons and Bradleys in stockpile to gather dust insince they're obsolete, granted even obsolete arsenal are better than nothing and smaller nations have arms deals to sell obsolete F line fighter planes, tanks and APCs to name few.

HIMARS are obsolete to developing to hypersonic weaponry, despite being very destructive weapons and better than alternatives.
 
That's kind of what I'm saying.
Regardless of your opinion on the capabilities of Saddam's Chemical Kurd-Away! rockets or their ability to continue production, fit them with biological & "dirty bomb" warheads, etc., you have to admit that AT SOME POINT Scott Ritter lied about it.

Either he lied while he was at the job, and only told the truth after, OR he told close-enough-to-the-truth at the job, then only lied about it after when it became en vogue to start ripping on the Iraq War.

Doesn't help it have been on the news for a decade of Saddam playing fuck-fuck games with the UN inspectors. Good part of the coverage was showing Iraqis loading shit on to cargo trucks by the back door and driving off. While the inspectors are standing with their thumbs up their asses by the front door waiting to be let in.
 
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Twenty years of low-intensity fighting is still twenty years of fighting. You'd be surprised.

Actually, we pretty much did. Go look into Clinton's Dividends of Peace initiative. Defense companies were forced to merge, all our M60 tanks were dumped in the ocean to become artificial reefs, and production as a whole was sharply scaled back to the bare minimum to sustain existing stocks.
Even after twenty years of low intensity warfare against insurgents it still wouldn't come close to what a war with the Soviets would be like. The average lifespan of an M60 in a scenario where the cold war would go hot was about 15 minutes. The US was pretty much counting on being able to out produce the Soviets.
 
Even after twenty years of low intensity warfare against insurgents it still wouldn't come close to what a war with the Soviets would be like. The average lifespan of an M60 in a scenario where the cold war would go hot was about 15 minutes. The US was pretty much counting on being able to out produce the Soviets.
Quality over quantity, pack of seething retards in suicide boxes are still seething retards in suicide boxes, Ukraine has gear from NATO countries, modern doctrine and high training.

Storm Z units are untrained penal batallion squads meant for meat wave attacks, they're engineered to die.
 
Take it with a hefty pinch of salt, but apparently some employees of Special Technology Center, the Russian technology and defense industry company, sold hundreds of terabytes of data of their company's classified documents to the Ukrainians, and they now reside in Slovakia for their own safety.
From the OP of the /k/ post on this:
Employees of the biggest russian military industry conctractor Special Technology Center (state run arms, defense, security, and technology corp) sold out hundreds of TBs of classified documents, blueprints and patterns for free. After providing initial package to Ukraine to prove their identities and intentions, they were extracted from russia by GUR and now safely reside in (presumably) Slovakia.
https://www.opensanctions.org/entities/NK-oB6r54BXe7UDS3iRHSo354/ their sanctions page, basically sanctioned by every first world country in 2022.
Short video in OP contains some bits, like full 200 page documentation for Orlan-10, Orlan-30.
Mobile complex for radio and radio engineering control and protection of information Svet-KU.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB-636AM2_"Svet-KU"
Radio stations, like R-168-5UT-2
EW on truck chassis https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/PБ-341B. Few of them were capured last year intact https://www.unian.net/war/rb-341v-l...iy-rossiyskiy-kompleks-reb-foto-12132954.html
Basically everything their company produced since 2001, including new stuff in active development, everything from radio engineering, radio technologies, drones, microchips, microcontroller programming.
The YouTube source of the news of this leak (all in Russian(?)); "ВСЕ ИДЕТ СОГЛАСНО ГРАФИКУ! ВСЕ ПО ПЛАНУ | Интервью с @dmytrokarpenko", 7 January 2024:
Archived in 360p:

WEBM (from the /k/ OP) of the documents shown in the above YouTube video:
 
regarding the rest of you post I again remind you:
Iran is only able to make ballistic missiles to sell to Russia because in 1990s Ukraine sold them Iskander prototypes the US had paid them to destroy.

Ukrainian leadership is corrupt. Much is still incompetent. You saw in the early days of the counter offense operational control had been given to only finest soviet minds doing retarded funnel attacks like we boggle at when Russia does them. If they had more western armor, they would have just sent more ineffectively in the kill zones.
There is also a slavic beggar component. Ukraine pushed off their counter-offensive for at least a month trying to weedle more weapons from the west. That was a month Russia had time to know what was coming, where, and unlike last winter there was no rope-a-dope. They had to push into competently built hardened defenses with a enemy ready and expecting them. Who knows if that extra month any difference.
I hear you dude and I'm not trying to say that the Ukrainians from the 90s (or current day ones for that matter) are some sort of childlike savants free from sin that definitely are not responsible for some fucky fuck games being played today. But unless I'm misreading between the lines here, assuming they turned around and sold some of the ordinance (unsure proper term) to another hostile entity because Slav, isn't the tech so old that it doesn't even matter? And wouldn't that basically be the equivalent of them saying, 'guess we didn't want to win the war' not only by pissing off Western aid givers but also getting rid of shit used to kill Russians?

I just don't understand the drip-feeding of shit like ATACMS (or outright refusal of Tauruses [Taurii?]) when it's clear they are being used effectively. I hear you regarding Soviet deathballs in Western hardware, I just have extreme difficulty with understanding the holding back of long-range missiles that are good at truly fucking up Russians.

And call me an optimist (rainbows please) but why should the US or the West even give two shits about what China thinks or does when it comes to decisions regarding handing over antiques to a country that was promised protection from the Vodka Niggers that invaded them twice since? If the Chinese or Norks or Iranians want to play games (the latter of which are already spamming their ironically styled suicide drones) instead of sitting back and worrying Jake Sullivan-style about the real politik behind it, the US and the collective (cucked) West should be able to stand up and say just try it motherfucker, increase your aid to the Russians and we'll give you a taste too and up the ante with our hand-outs.

Just blows my mind to see the US/West pussy-footing around not offending/aggravating certain countries when it comes to establishing strength and demonstrating that no, we're in charge and we make the decisions here, especially when for years everyone was afraid of Russia and then we get to see in 4k what they're actually capable of when engaging in their Three Day SMO against their poorer, smaller, weaker neighbour.

I would rather live in the relatively stable and fat Burgerstan hegemony any day over the Goat Fucking Caliphate of Chinky Vodkastan because we're seeing what happens when the World Police decides to go for a smoke break and elects pudding brained geriatrics puppeteered by staffers just to spite the Orange Man.
 
isn't the tech so old that it doesn't even matter? And wouldn't that basically be the equivalent of them saying, 'guess we didn't want to win the war' not only by pissing off Western aid givers but also getting rid of shit used to kill Russians?

No. What Ukraine sold Iran were (essentially, its a little fucky) Iskandr prototypes. Iskandrs are still in use, and slav-rigged Iskandrs are the basis Putins 'hypersonic' missiles. This was (and still is) extremely, extremely bad. If this had never happened, Iran wouldn't have any missile program until Russia used another former corrupt soviet hinterland satellite to be the scapegoat

The problem is that while this was a different regime that did this (very likely with Russia's blessing/at Russia's urging) most of those same people are still around and lounging near the levers of power. Ukraine has pivoted towards a more high-trust society, but we saw Iran undo all progress in exchange for Islamic global expansion after the Shah. Just because they are behaving NOW doesn't mean they'll keep behaving. And even if the leadership isn't working for the Russians, both sides are absolutely rotten with informants for the other.

So there is no guarantee that ATACMS don't end up sold to the Norks unless very tight controls are kept on the supply. As its easier to keep an eye on 12 missiles than 1200.

I just don't understand the drip-feeding of shit like ATACMS (or outright refusal of Tauruses [Taurii?]) when it's clear they are being used effectively. I hear you regarding Soviet deathballs in Western hardware, I just have extreme difficulty with understanding the holding back of long-range missiles that are good at truly fucking up Russians.
See above, you need to both make sure that no supply officer decides to get payday + you need to make sure highcommand doesn't get any ideas about potentially triggering WWIII.

And call me an optimist (rainbows please) but why should the US or the West even give two shits about what China thinks or does when it comes to decisions regarding handing over antiques to a country that was promised protection from the Vodka Niggers that invaded them twice since? If the Chinese or Norks or Iranians want to play games (the latter of which are already spamming their ironically styled suicide drones) instead of sitting back and worrying Jake Sullivan-style about the real politik behind it, the US and the collective (cucked) West should be able to stand up and say just try it motherfucker, increase your aid to the Russians and we'll give you a taste too and up the ante with our hand-outs.
Because hitting Russia with Sanctions doesn't matter if no one actually sanctions Russia.

If China decided to say "fuck it" (well more than they have) and start shipping war prodution to Russia, Russia could start turning out real tanks instead of soviet refurbs. They could replace their missiles. They could equip mobliks with guns that actually shoot, the US would need to spin up to match and war gets a lot more difficult and expensive.

Just blows my mind to see the US/West pussy-footing around not offending/aggravating certain countries when it comes to establishing strength and demonstrating that no, we're in charge and we make the decisions here, especially when for years everyone was afraid of Russia and then we get to see in 4k what they're actually capable of when engaging in their Three Day SMO against their poorer, smaller, weaker neighbour.
While its annoying, remember Russia's leader doesn't care what international opinion of him is, and we've seen how that's turning out.

International consensus is important for international order.
 
Even after twenty years of low intensity warfare against insurgents it still wouldn't come close to what a war with the Soviets would be like. The average lifespan of an M60 in a scenario where the cold war would go hot was about 15 minutes. The US was pretty much counting on being able to out produce the Soviets.
And what part of "After peace broke out Bill Clinton began gutting our entire industrial base, military and civilian" are you not getting? Machinery was sold to China, tooling was destroyed because storing it is expensive, and so on. We never built that shit back up during the War on Terror since lo and behold, we had these massive stockpiles that needed to get run down to save on storage costs.

So, here we are, after thirty years of giving zero fucks about production capacity and twenty years of fire support missions.,
 
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I would rather live in the relatively stable and fat Burgerstan hegemony any day over the Goat Fucking Caliphate of Chinky Vodkastan because we're seeing what happens when the World Police decides to go for a smoke break and elects pudding brained geriatrics puppeteered by staffers just to spite the Orange Man.
What's crazy is there are retards who actually believe Dugan's "multipolar world" cope will bring about more peace and prosperity. They're so /pol/-brained or propagandized by daddy russia that they actually think Russian klepto oligarch rule is better than the "globohomo" meme they think exists IRL as much as it does online.
 
Having a bad day? A rough night? Feeling down? Well, to lighten the mood, have a laugh at the comments here:

The bad part is that air currents brought this polar cyclone thing from Russia to my country too, and 2 days ago I was running in shorts at like 5-10C, now it's fucking -5 and there's too much snow to even try until the pathways/roads get fixed.
Adding weather as just another shitty thing coming from Russia
 
So there is no guarantee that ATACMS don't end up sold to the Norks unless very tight controls are kept on the supply. As its easier to keep an eye on 12 missiles than 1200.
The problem is. you've only made the argument for sending 12 ATACMS at a time and not a total of only 12 ATACMS.
 
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