Are you lost needing femoid advice post here - For the poor bastard's who dare or are just curious

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You didn't post the section that would actually answer my question.

Even if this is true (and keep in mind this is just one study conducted on a small group of people), it's still a massive leap to suddenly not think your kid is really yours just because you didn't give birth to them naturally. Struggling to bond with them, sure, but not thinking they're yours? Hell no, especially after gestating the thing for nine months.

This article is unrelated to the study that Dr. James Swain conducted, and this one points out how doctors are encouraging "gentle" c-sections to encourage bonding similar to natural births; if C-sections were no different then this wouldn't be necessary:

This one is also unrelated to Dr. Swain's study, and tries to downplay any fears mothers may have regarding the operation. Again, these reassuring articles would not exist if there wasn't suspicion in the first place:

This is only a small sample of the amount of documentation surrounding mothers not properly bonding with their children. As @TapewormSalesman pointed out there are situations where c-sections are necessary to save the lives of the mother and infant, but that does nothing to invalidate the decades of observation and concern surrounding the procedure that has resulted in certain women just flat out not connecting with their own flesh and blood.
 
this is the deal with sections and bonding:

basically we don't know shit. the western medical paradigm has a very hard time developing models of healthy normal birth because it is based on nonholistic thinking about the body and mind, and on the male body as normal and the female body as aberration from the norm. that's not some kind of wook talk, that is facts.

however, once you leave the western medical paradigm, you completely lose all rigor and intellectual discipline and it's all vibes.

these are things I am very sure are true from my own experience, from observation, from reading, and from independent reasoning:

* the experience of birth and the postnatal period is different from anything else, extremely powerful, and like psychedelics, leaves the thoughtful person with a changed relationship to their own emotions, consciousness, and sense of self.

* humans can bond with infants they did not birth

* human mothers can fail to bond with infants they did birth, even to the extreme extent of killing those infants

It is my opinion that natural birth is ideal and our customs, medical practices, and laws should acknowledge this. However, I also believe that the individual pregnant, birthing, and postpartum woman is the sole authority over what happens to her. (I have spiritual-political beliefs about the sovereignity of the individual and right order that are relevant here.)

It seems to me that sections can lead to disruption in bonding. But they don't always, and natural birth doesn't always lead to ideal outcomes either.

It would be nice if we had a rigorous, intellectually respectable way of thinking about things that gathered actual data and made it available to regular people in a way they could understand. But hey at least we have the internet and you can ask me what I think about it and I'll tell you.
 
I'm pretty sure they are, but even then, I genuinely can't imagine not considering my child really mine just because of that, and because I didn't give birth to it naturally. That just sounds crazy to me.
It is crazy, and it's bullshit. Just some stupid fantasy a few men have of women as primitive and bound by biology, and imputing some mysterious and mystical quality - which implies limitations on women as irrational and made helplessly emotional, by nature...which is then torqued to argue fake "reasons" why women should be limited, managed, and restricted to subordinate servicing of men. Very convenient!

Also, they essentially argue that the nature of woman is pain. Women are supposed to be in pain; pain is womanly and natural and necessary to her essence and success as a woman. If women don't experience pain, they are unnatural, alien, against the natural order of things. Another wonderful coincidence of women's "natural imprisonment" by our bodies and natural wretchedness just so happening to be extended to "reasons" to keep women under men's thumbs. More convenient theorizing/fantasizing!


It is very, very stupid.
Again, these reassuring articles would not exist if there wasn't suspicion in the first place:
https://www.romper.com/life/can-you...ol-pills-can-you-skip-your-period-on-the-pill
This is only a small sample of the amount of documentation surrounding mothers not properly bonding with their children.
Oh, yes, "reassuring articles" and "suspicion" absolutely equals "c-section births create monsters who don't love their children."

And they say education doesn't teach critical thinking these days....

It would be nice if we had a rigorous, intellectually respectable way of thinking about things that gathered actual data and made it available to regular people in a way they could understand.
You mean like the quasi-mysticality infusing your comments? That kind of rigor?
* the experience of birth and the postnatal period is different from anything else, extremely powerful, and like psychedelics, leaves the thoughtful person with a changed relationship to their own emotions, consciousness, and sense of self.
1. Being "thoughtful" has nothing to do with it. Plenty of very "unthoughtful" women give birth and bond with their children. Qualifying this to "thoughtful" women is nonsensical, though it does suggest a certain arrogance.

2. The statement^ is incorrect as a blanket statement of either what inherently "is" or "should be.". Some women - both thoughtful and unthoughtful - just have their baby and get on with the raising of it. No mystical, swirly, psychedelic experience. No "changed relationship to their own emotions, consciousness, and sense of self" purely as a result of the physical birth experience itself. It varies.

3. "changed relationship to their own emotions, consciousness, and sense of self" - lol, I had to include it twice. Rather hyperbolic as a general phrasing, but even more notably - and oddly, it suggests some starry-eyed notion of the physical birthing experience and ascribes to the physical process the possession or bringing of profound, fundamental physical and metaphysical meaning and power. If anything were to bring that level of power/impact, it would more likely be the larger concept of bringing a child that you literally grew into the world, and the recognition of the responsibility and intertwined relationship going forward than a biological process.

A birth experience can be good, bad, or OK; it can be difficult and painful...or not. It can have immense impact...or not. Hormones related to birthing serve purposes that facilitate physical birth and nursing. They are not metaphysical happenings. If someone wants to apply a metaphysical overlay to their experience, or is dramatically impacted by the pain of the experience, or is emotional, or was profoundly affected by the awe of becoming a parent, that's fine and normal. But the physical is physical. And it is not inherent in the technical, physical process to experience a "changed relationship to their own emotions, consciousness, and sense of self."

It may be that your personal experience involved some complete reconstruction of self purely due to a physical experience. But it is not even logical, much less supportable, that the mere physical birth process inherently changes one's core (or, as you suggested, should do and will do in a "thoughtful" woman) - rather than or moreso than, say, the gestation of life, the post-birth regime and regimen, or the recognition of what you have wrought: the conception of responsibility for the life of another, or your own life's altered path - and so on.
 

This article is unrelated to the study that Dr. James Swain conducted, and this one points out how doctors are encouraging "gentle" c-sections to encourage bonding similar to natural births; if C-sections were no different then this wouldn't be necessary:

This one is also unrelated to Dr. Swain's study, and tries to downplay any fears mothers may have regarding the operation. Again, these reassuring articles would not exist if there wasn't suspicion in the first place:

This is only a small sample of the amount of documentation surrounding mothers not properly bonding with their children. As @TapewormSalesman pointed out there are situations where c-sections are necessary to save the lives of the mother and infant, but that does nothing to invalidate the decades of observation and concern surrounding the procedure that has resulted in certain women just flat out not connecting with their own flesh and blood.
Studies regarding bonding are to be taken with a massive grain of salt because there's no real consistent scientific way to measure bonding. That Yale study you mentioned earlier is as close as it gets, but mother/child bonding does not look the same across the globe.

I assume it's very easy as a man to paint natural childbirth as some mystical event that imparts children with some sort of intangible worldly essence, but the fact remains that modern mothers (even with their access to caesarian sections) are able to bond with their children to a far deeper degree than the mothers of yore who popped out litters of kids.
 
Advice for kiwis if you seek kitchen knives, get German-made ones. I was cutting a slice of bread once and unknowingly I was half-way through my thumb.
Japanese knife: folded a million times
German knife: folded one time, but correctly

I agree with this, all my knives are German and I love them so much, it's worth the price.
 
Yeah, I'm just gonna say it. All this romanticization about childbirth being "mystical", and "psychedelic", and "primordial" just sounds like shit a stoner troon would say.
It's like a potentially fatal log flume ride. It's all fun and games until you get stuck.
 
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damn you're mad about something but I'm not reading all that to figure out what
Your inability to read, reason, or think (or reply correctly) does not change reality. But bc I'm nice, here's the sort version: you, and your theories of childbirth, are full of shit.
 
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This isn't really an advice question, and I don't know if it's been asked before, but what's the consensus on sugar daddies?

I ask because a friend of mine says she met an old guy and after one night out he's going to pay her rent. And she specifically called him a sugar daddy so she's not in denial or anything.

I can't look at her the same, both of em, I find it incredibly pathetic. But, maybe I'm just a man and I haven't had to make ends meet in such a way like a lot of women unfortunately have. What do you guys think?
 
This isn't really an advice question, and I don't know if it's been asked before, but what's the consensus on sugar daddies?

I ask because a friend of mine says she met an old guy and after one night out he's going to pay her rent. And she specifically called him a sugar daddy so she's not in denial or anything.

I can't look at her the same, both of em, I find it incredibly pathetic. But, maybe I'm just a man and I haven't had to make ends meet in such a way like a lot of women unfortunately have. What do you guys think?
It’s a kind of prostitution. Old men pay off young women for GFE. It’s exploitative and yet another example of male privilege, and sugar babies need to be cool with the idea of fuckin a guy twice their age plus.

It’s also fertile ground for scams, even some that rip off the potential sugar baby.
 
It’s a kind of prostitution. Old men pay off young women for GFE. It’s exploitative and yet another example of male privilege, and sugar babies need to be cool with the idea of fuckin a guy twice their age plus.

It’s also fertile ground for scams, even some that rip off the potential sugar baby.
Sugar mamas exist too ya know, so it’s not really a male exclusive privilege.
 
Japanese knife: folded a million times
German knife: folded one time, but correctly

I agree with this, all my knives are German and I love them so much, it's worth the price.
German knives aren't folded, it's a weird tradition/cosmetic thing that only the Japanese do.
 
Women: "He's gross and old, but at least he buys me Louis Vuitton and Boba Teas."

Men: "You're telling me I get paid for fucking a milf? Hell yeah brother, sign me up."
Yeah lol calling it a male privilege when having a sugar baby is literally available to someone who has enough money.
 
This isn't really an advice question, and I don't know if it's been asked before, but what's the consensus on sugar daddies?

I ask because a friend of mine says she met an old guy and after one night out he's going to pay her rent. And she specifically called him a sugar daddy so she's not in denial or anything.

I can't look at her the same, both of em, I find it incredibly pathetic. But, maybe I'm just a man and I haven't had to make ends meet in such a way like a lot of women unfortunately have. What do you guys think?
It's prostitution for men who can't admit to being johns and women who can't admit to being whores, not to mention the daddy/baby girl shit is pretty sickening in itself. I agree it's pathetic. If you're gonna be a whore or be a guy who fucks whores, at least own it.
 
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