Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Napoleon III]

Last post on USSR/Polish history. It is relevant to Ukraine in that it is a debate about how this war came to be and how the decision-maker of one of the major sides views this war and politics. I am breaking my won't post anymore about the interview because of the historical nature of the claims being made. But no more after this.

I don't understand why Poland is wrong for this. First, the non-communist part of Ukraine, the Ukrainian People's Republic, attempted to attack Poles living in cities in western Ukraine and Poland responded with force. Poland crushed Ukraine and annexed only western parts of it, of which there is a sizable Polish population there dating to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

I will not answer this question in a moral sense but rather a strategic sense. Poland by doing this and by taking a bit of Czechoslovakia made it so all of its neighbors hated it. The only people that actually liked Poland was Britain and France. This was really stupid of Poland to do as you can't make enemies of the two great powers if you are a middle power like that. Eventually if you cause enough of a ruckus the two sides will agree to devour you and put their conflict aside for a time.

All these lands were closer to Poland in regards to its culture that many Russian nationalists in the Russo-Ukrainian War considered that Ukraine can keep if they were turned into a rump state.

You are actually not incorrect about this at all. This is especially true of places like Galicia. I wished Putin had talked more about the actions of the Austrians particularly since they are the ones that promoted the Ukrainian language. Outside of mentioning that the general staff was promoting Ukrainian identity Putin didn't say much.

I will say you might be reading into Putin's history a bit too much. For example Putin said that if Minsk 2 had been followed there would be no conflict and he wouldn't try to redraw the borders. He uses history as an explanation for what has happened not so much as a way to make decisions about what to do or not do. In a sense he is trying to explain what has happened as a sort of natural process. The history of the interactions of Poland and Russia will have little to do with how Putin decides to deal with Poland. Something like the threat Poland provides, what can be gained from conflict/cooperation, and how strong Russia and Poland are will factor in much more heavily.

 

[Vesperus]

*PROTIP*
Anyone who feels bad about the current status of the oval office should go and look at the hohol cope thread.

Biden is not actually the dumbest motherfucker in America.

 

[Cuckoman]

Let us not loose sight of what is important:
1, the war will continue
2, germany will continue to de-industrialize
3, german homosexuals (== the entire population) will soon have more expensive energy and might become poorer.
4, Biden stopped export of LNG, shutting off 80% of german imports of LNG.
5, Maybe/hopefully, germans will freeze to death in their bug-holes as they can not afford both food and heating
6, More immigrants to germany
7, Everytime a german woman is raped by a migrant God gives an Angel their wings.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Even pro-Russia twitter is having fun with it

 

[Betonhaus]

*PROTIP*
Anyone who feels bad about the current status of the oval office should go and look at the hohol cope thread.

Biden is not actually the dumbest motherfucker in America.

Can you summarize? i got a migraine and i don't want to make it worse.

 

[White_N]

Oh right this is a war thread, opinions on the new commander?

 

[Corn Syrup Connoisseur]

/pol/ reacts to the interview:

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Oh right this is a war thread, opinions on the new commander?
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Well first you must understand the rivalry between Hector of Troy and Achilles back in......

 

[Feline Supremacist]

I fail to see as to how events from the period of 800 AD to 1600 AD are at all relevant to the current situation. The world has, um, kind of changed a lot since then.

They absolutely are.

I am still learning about Russian/Ukrainian events they learned as wee children, and take for granted Americans have at least a passing acquaintance with; most of us do not. In the past this understanding was not really relevant to the average American.

Putin reminds me of my father, who was older and in a second marriage when came along. He was a immigrant and was patient with me when I asked about family and the languages spoken at home. I didn't feel any different from the other families we knew, especially the Russians and the Irish, who also had immigrant parents that made sure their children knew their family history, which was very much part of who and what they were.

The world has changed, but a people do not. If you read Taras Bulba, a story about a fictional Zaporozhye Cossack in the 16th century who goes to war against Poland by Gogol there are many sections that would confuse most Americans but Russians/Ukrainians know very well. The Ukrainian/Polish relationship, in all its mutual allure/hatred is a large part of the novel, which is still present today; its not a historical vestige but still very real to the people in those countries.

I don't understand why Poland is wrong for this

This is a good example-a Russian and Ukrainian would understand this perspective even as a kindergartner. We simply don't have that perspective; even this morning I asked a Russian friend about something in Taras Bulba when we briefly discussed it.

Russia and Ukraine have a common history because the idea of a separate Ukraine is thoroughly modern. To communicate this concept to a people who struggle to understand their own history, he held a brief class in Russian History. I agree it was necessary, even if the subject matter is very dry to a European. To a yank, I'm sure it's riveting to learn something new.

Absolutely agree but it just skimmed the surface. Wait until they learn about salo and the common love Russians and Ukrainians share for it.

Honestly the US is likely the most historically illiterate country in the world.

It is, but that's deliberate. Everything you posted is true, though. Most Americans here will scream and cry not them but yeah, that's them.

I don't think Putin or any of the people he listens to has a good sense of why the West acts the way it does. Putin would act much differently if he did.

He's a Soviet boomer; they are both fascinated and repulsed by the West. By us.

 

[MrJokerRager]

Putler declares @Ukraine is Big Gay is now canon.



And Byldos butthurt.

 

[Napoleon III]

Oh right this is a war thread, opinions on the new commander?
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I think the idea that everyone has that he will be a butcher is somewhat untrue. Ukraine simply does not have that option available it has lost too many men. If he loses too many men too quickly he will be relieved near immediately. He may decide to fight more last stands though. Though I think this entire thing is good for Russia. He probably won't be as much as a bad commander as Budanov would have been. But he likely won't be as good as Zaluzhny.

I also think the military will not have decisive leadership. Frequently there are times when a quick bad decision is better than a good late decision in war. My sense is that he will not be given the autonomy that his position requires. There are indications that Zaluzhny did not have that much autonomy. There are also indications that there were a lot of western officers who were actually in command. I don't think this is entirely true but I do think they had some influence that they could wield some of the time. They would say they weren't exerting pressure on Zaluzhny they were simply advising him. This is likely to be worse for the new guy because he is so new he doesn't know how to deal with these western officers. And they have already have tons of experience over someone in his position.

 

[There Is Light At The End]

Absolutely agree but it just skimmed the surface. Wait until they learn about salo and the common love Russians and Ukrainians share for it.

You have no idea. Especially with boiled potatoes and rye bread. Or roasted potatoes with salo. It's called картошка со шкварками. List goes on and on

 

[Feline Supremacist]

You have no idea. Especially with boiled potatoes and rye bread. Or roasted potatoes with salo. It's called картошка со шкварками. List goes on and on

I am a prosciutto, serrano and Tyrol speck girl. Eastern slavs and I will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Shallow Wave]

Post this to scare a mutt

 

[Strix454]

Oh right this is a war thread, opinions on the new commander?

Zelensky really wanted Budanov. For a while Budanov was giving interviews as if the job was already his. He was bragging up his deep warfare strategy in Russia and how Ukraine was going to launch a new counteroffensive in the spring. The western intelligence agencies also seemed to want Budanov and often openly ridiculed Syrskyi as an unpopular general who was personally (somehow) responsible for everything that happened with Bakhmut.

The official newspaper voice of the CIA (the Washington Post) initially reported that Budanov had been appointed to the job. That showed IMO the depth of the fighting between the various factions over who would get the job.

The western media script is to refer to him as a "butcher" addicted to Soviet Army tactics and hated by all the soldiers in the Ukrainian Army.

He is disliked by a certain section of US military people because of his interference with "NATO tactics" during the 2023 counteroffensive. He is generally held responsible for the switch from so-called "combined arms" attacks during the counteroffensive to small unit tactics. Endless articles appear calling him a backward military thinker addicted to soviet meat grinder tactics. The US wargamers want a puppet who does as instructed. This guy isn't a puppet.

In my opinion, he was a very safe choice which will lead to preservation of the status quo and no real change of strategy. He was so closely associated with current military strategy that any radical departure from it seems incredibly unlikely. He is professional, experienced and competent. He was the natural successor to the position within the military hierarchy. But all the qualities that make him Ukraine's best choice for the job will lead to him having no friends within the Ukrainian government.

At the same time, I don't think the internal fighting over control of the military and military strategy is over. I would not be surprised if in the aftermath of some military setback within the next few months that he is also fired and replaced by Budanov.

 

[Vesperus]

Can you summarize? i got a migraine and i don't want to make it worse.

In that case I won't.
Save it for later.

 

[HOMO FOR LIFE RETURNS]

Not sure if this is a PR win or lose. Either way, memes are epic.

 

[geckogoy]

Tbh I think putin was trying to dunk on carlson and make him look like a clown, but accidentally just came off as a vaguely clumsy and relatable history autist instead. I guess thats a win for russia?

 

[Radola Gajda]

I fail to see as to how events from the period of 800 AD to 1600 AD are at all relevant to the current situation. The world has, um, kind of changed a lot since then.

Welcome to the old world . Here events that happened 1000 years ago still have impact on society, culture and borders today. In case of this war period between 1000 - 1600 AD is really important for understanding why there are 3 east slavic states today.
Why modern Ukraine is split between east and west. Why Ukrainan claim on Crimea is pretty weak etc...

 

[Betonhaus]

Welcome to the old world . Here events that happened 1000 years ago still have impact on society, culture and borders today. In case of this war period between 1000 - 1600 AD is really important for understanding why there are 3 east slavic states today.
Why modern Ukraine is split between east and west. Why Ukrainan claim on Crimea is pretty weak etc...

Also to demonstrate how far Russia intends to go, as half of Europe is convinced that their countries will be invaded next.