Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Betonhaus]

In the other thread they're having a discussion with the premise that the continued existence of America as a power is in question.

 

[HOMO FOR LIFE RETURNS]

Denys is now openly criticizing Elensky for wasting the army in Bakhmut and likely about to do the same again.

Now it's milquetoast but hearing this coming from his mouth means things are really, really fucking bad.


That's not how attritional wars work. It's a simple equation, x amount of artillery plus y amount of air defense and z amount of troops. You have less of one you need more of the other.

Ukraine has run out of X and Y and the west can't pull 5 million 155mm rounds or 10 Patriot systems out of their arses no matter how many billions in funding is approved. Shell starvation and lack of AD is allowing the Russians to change their tactics and concentrate their forces. When the Ukrainian army breaks it will be sudden. Can the Russians take advantage of a localised collapse in the Ukrainian lines? We'll see but collapse it will.

Yeah I am thinking the same too. When shit hits the fan, things will break down quickly and rapidly. Once that happens, Russia will dig into the hole and split it right open. It's a matter of when not if.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

It’s basically the same terms and conditions they levy on anyone since the end of the Cold War. America is treating Russia the same as they did in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. Funny thing is America failed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria but think it’ll work on a country much larger than those three combined.

Our own oligarchs think they "won" the Cold War with the break up of the USSR. They act as if we are the conquerors, and the citizens of the Russian Federation are a vanquished people. Also, never underestimate the willingness and cupidity of ordinary Americans to believe the US is a shining beacon of freedom and liberty, ignoring not only the destruction and death it has wrecked upon other nations throughout its relatively short existence, but upon it's own citizens-of all colors and creeds.

Spoiler: sidetrack but important

It was a scant two years ago the US put their citizens under a de facto house arrest, de facto prevented them from exercising their rights to free speech and actively sought to prevent them from earning a living or going to church to worship unless they consented to a medical experiment over a mild cold virus. Only state sanctioned expression of speech was allowed, and only state approved political groups were encouraged to use violence to enforce it. All this, despite evidence that not only was the virus relatively mild, but that the state was causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people by denying safe and proven medications and/or subjecting them to unnecessary medical treatments to preserve the appearance of an emergency and justify political repression to ensure the preferred candidate of American oligarchs was crowned head of state.

Let's put aside this astonishing denial of history and ignorance of Russia for a moment, and instead focus on the arrogance of the belief the USSR was conquered when it voluntarily dissolved.

The United States has built an enduring industry dedicated to painting the USSR, it's leaders and its peoples as barbaric and vicious murderers of its own citizens and as cruel expansionists that brutally suppressed and victimized its "minorities", as if anyone unable to connect to cia.gov and explore the large archive of declassified documents that detail not only their many efforts to do so but how and with whom we collaborated with. Ukraine is good case as it hosts loads of documents that very clearly shows they collaborated and paid Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych right after WW2 ended, and this policy to foster Ukrainian dissident groups continued for over fifty years. This was but one of many secret and not so secret strategies to fracture and destroy the USSR but instead of devolving into an orgy of carnage and destruction it very calmly held referendums in all the SSRs and voted to end. It's not my contention it was smooth and without any violence, but certainly it didn't fall apart as some had hoped, because the ultimate goal was to strip the former USSR of all its resources and wealth following an ensuing period of chaos for the benefit of our wealthy; our oligarchs that control business and corporations. In addition, Russia, once it has been pacified and under American control, was going to be the way into China, via the Russian Far East. Thus, the new tactic was to pivot to using former citizens of the USSR with revanchist hopes, which was pursued because they were outsmarted by the Russian oligarchs they had used as their cat paws. The same factotums that had been employed in the anti-Soviet industry now became Anti-Russian shills, claiming Russia was still the Soviet Union, and enthusiastically continued their work as if nothing had happened in 1991. Intelligence agencies went to work on minority groups in Caucasus that had a historical grudge with Russia, leading to two wars in Chechnya as well as several terrorist attacks in, and around the Russian Federation. Of course, they also went to work on their favorites: nationalist Nazi elements in the Ukraine.

Russia and Russians have existed, in one form or another, as an organized political, ethnic and nation for over a thousand years. It has been invaded several times and survived, with the two most recent invasions-Napoleon and La Grande Armée and Hitler's Third Reich-still very fresh in the minds of all Russians, and the citizens of the Russian Federation. They have been many things throughout the centuries, but they have never been a conquered people. I'm not going to into a history lesson like Putin but every Russian school child can tell you who Alexander Nevsky was, and what he did in 1221. I can guarantee you the majority of the clowns in the US government have no clue who this Russian Orthodox saint is or why he's important, yet they claim they conquered the Russian peoples when they precipitated the dissolution of the USSR. To them its the same as the fall of Baghdad and the taking of Kabul as well as the impending (second) conquest of Aleppo. Except that its not, and never will be. These are a people who set fire to Moscow rather than allow Napoleon to walk into it intact, and then wrote a concert overture with real cannons celebrating it. They are Slavs at heart and when Putin, and those around him, say they will use nukes if NATO enters this conflict, he, and they, are not bluffing. The idiots running the US believe he is, and it will our undoing.

 

[Michael Wade]

You all owe the train autist an apology

 

[There Is Light At The End]

I thought for a long time what he was doing there and how his relatives allowed an obviously mentally challenged man to go to the front, but then I remembered that for the death of a soldier, the family receives a compensation of 400,000 dollars...
https://life.pravda.com.ua/society/2022/08/3/249854/

The former Aidar commander threatened to purge Ukrainian villages and towns for resisting mobilization.

The former commander of the Ukrainian national battalion Aidar, Yevhen Dikiy, has threatened to purge Ukrainian villages and towns for resisting mobilization. This is how he reacted to the incident in the village of Kosmach in the Ivano-Frankivsk region, where the crowd beat a woman, suspecting her to be a recruiter for the Ukrainian military recruitment center.

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Bucha

 

[>tfw no Asian gf]

You all owe the train autist an apology

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Holy shit! Berlin and all the other European capitals are about to get invaded! It's joever!

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

Our own oligarchs think they "won" the Cold War with the break up of the USSR. They act as if we are the conquerors, and the citizens of the Russian Federation are a vanquished people.

Well, we kind of were for about a decade. The nineties were a time of unprecedented organized crime, horrifying drug abuse, mind-shattering poverty, mindless worship of all things American and sweet freedom that some are starting to see fondly because memory is a funny thing and the hardships fade but the infatuation with one's youth remains.

Then we got better. The US did not approve of it not one bit.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Well, we kind of were for about a decade. The nineties were a time of unprecedented organized crime, drug abuse, mind-shattering poverty and sweet freedom that some are starting to see fondly because memory is afunny thing and the hardships fade but the infatuation with one's youth remains.

Then we got better.

Ironically saved by the greed of your own oligarchs. Reminds me of this CS Lewis quote: It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

Substitute neocons for moral busybodies and this is what your oligarchs saved you from.

 

[Strix454]

The BBC has presented its own version of history to counter that of Putin:

- Claiming that Russia originated in 862 with Rurik is a complete fabrication and mythology. That people in 862 were simply a collection of bandits that have no relationship to Russia.

- Although a national consciousness among Ukrainians didn't appear until the 20th century, Ukrainians still existed in 17th century poland. Just because they didn't have a state didn't mean they were not a nation.

- Crimea doesn't belong to Russia or Ukraine because it was stolen by Russia from the Ottomans and Cossacks who are (apparently) the only rightful owners.

- Just because the Soviet Union arbitrarily drew borders for something called Ukraine in the 20th century doesn't mean that Ukraine isn't real. According to the BBC, all countries are fake countries because they are created by a historical process.

- Poland's diplomatic relationship with Germany in the 1930s was "diplomatic outreach to a threatening neighbour" rather than collaboration.

 

[Seedling]

The US/Ukraine has its own peace plan. The terms are:
1) Russia must withdraw unconditionally to the 1991 borders.
2) All Ukrainian citizens in Russia must be handed over to Ukrainian custody. Even if they don't want to live in Ukraine or return to Ukraine. This in particular applies to Ukrainian seperatists and Ethnic Russians in Crimea.
3) Russia must agree to submit to a war crimes tribunal and turn over any Russian citizen to its custody.
4) Russia must agree to compensate Ukraine for long-term damage to the Ukrainian environment which cannot be immediately calculated. This includes compensation for animals who have died as a result of the conflict.
5) Russia must agree to international controls over the prices it sells its natural resources at. In particular oil and gas resources. A new international organization would set the prices at which Russia could sell these resources.
6) Russia must agree to reparations for all damage done to Ukraine during the conflict. The reparations would be paid by Russia out of state revenues, natural resource revenues and whatever methods seem appropriate to Ukraine and its international partners.

This is just borderline insane, Russia might as well nuke itself.
The absurd hatred the west has for Russia for not bending to them is honestly disorienting, hundreds of thousands death, millions of people impovirshed and all because their geopolitical chess game is not playing out like they want it to

 

[Napoleon III]

You all owe the train autist an apology

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Tbqh I saw this and didn't comment because I have absolutely no fucking clue what this is for.

I heard that maybe this was some sort of preparation for an offensive in the next 48-72 hours. Maybe as a way to store supplies for an upcoming offensive or something. This would seem to explain why Macron cancelled his visit for Feb 14-15th but who the fuck knows. This actually makes some sense but I don't know why you'd store supplies like that. Maybe so you don't have to bother loading them as they are pre-loaded. I don't know.

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

- Crimea doesn't belong to Russia or Ukraine because it was stolen by Russia from the Ottomans and Cossacks who are (apparently) the only rightful owners.

This is perhaps my biggest beef with Putin's history lesson. It is a very slippery slope because it opens Russia to territorial claims from helluva lot of other players. Kaliningrad is historically German, Vladivostok is historically Chinese, Vyborg is historically Finnish and Crimea was indeed taken from the Ottomans. The list goes on.

 

[Strix454]

This is perhaps my biggest beef with Putin's history lesson. It is a very slippery slope because it opens Russia to territorial claims from helluva lot of other players. Kaliningrad is historically German, Vladivostok is historically Chinese, Vyborg is historically Finnish and Crimea was indeed taken from the Ottomans. The list goes on.

i somewhat agree. The best Russian claim on Crimea is that the modern population is overwhemlingly "Russian" and doesn't want anything to do with Ukraine. That its association with Ukraine was a very recent and rather arbitrary decision.

They are better off making arguments around the reality of the present in Ukraine rather than making historical arguments. In particular that Ukraine was always a divided country politically since 1991 and that after the legal government was overthrown by force in 2014, certain regions wanted nothing to do with that Ukraine anymore.

 

[Shallow Wave]

conquered people

Golden horde tho

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Golden horde tho

You know, I didn't want to go full Putin but correct. The Horde is still present in Russia. Conquista, reconquista and then absorbed into the whole. Putin touched on it in the interview with Tucker; not Russians but citizens of the Russian Federation, equals with different identities.

 

[Shallow Wave]

You know, I didn't want to go full Putin but correct. The Horde is still present in Russia. Conquista, reconquista and then absorbed into the whole. Putin touched on it in the interview with Tucker; not Russians but citizens of the Russian Federation, equals with different identities.

Caspian steppes are predominantly russian now tho.

Crimea doesn't belong to Russia or Ukraine because it was stolen by Russia from the Ottomans and Cossacks who are (apparently) the only rightful owners.

And then it was stolen from khazars who stole it from goths, who stole it from greeks who probably stole it from macedon people. Basically, Macedonia numba 1 and shoud get the entirety of southern and eastern europe and anatolia. Also persia. And a little bit of india.

 

[There Is Light At The End]

The BBC has presented its own version of history to counter that of Putin:

- Claiming that Russia originated in 862 with Rurik is a complete fabrication and mythology. That people in 862 were simply a collection of bandits that have no relationship to Russia.

- Although a national consciousness among Ukrainians didn't appear until the 20th century, Ukrainians still existed in 17th century poland. Just because they didn't have a state didn't mean they were not a nation.

- Crimea doesn't belong to Russia or Ukraine because it was stolen by Russia from the Ottomans and Cossacks who are (apparently) the only rightful owners.

- Just because the Soviet Union arbitrarily drew borders for something called Ukraine in the 20th century doesn't mean that Ukraine isn't real. According to the BBC, all countries are fake countries because they are created by a historical process.

- Poland's diplomatic relationship with Germany in the 1930s was "diplomatic outreach to a threatening neighbour" rather than collaboration.

You shouldn't trust history matters to those, who claimed about black legionnaires in legio Brittanica. Nigs were at best, auxiliaries in legions, stationed in Africa

 

[The Ugly One]

Just because they didn't have a state didn't mean they were not a nation.

The same people insist that there are no such ethnic groups as Swedes, Germans, Italians, or French, those are all just labels given to territories, and anyone living in them, including a Somali who hasn't even unpacked his bags, belongs to the group.

- Crimea doesn't belong to Russia or Ukraine because it was stolen by Russia from the Ottomans and Cossacks who are (apparently) the only rightful owners.

Another favorite liberal trope of mine is "nonwhite empires GOOD, actually." They use this same logic to argue that Britain really belongs to Africans. See, a couple members of the occupying imperial Roman garrison may have been black, that makes blacks native to Britain. Americans have no right to live in America because this land belongs to Indian tribes who pushed out other Indian tribes in the 1600s, but anywhere Arabs or Turks conquer immediately becomes their eternal homeland.

 

[Iron Jaguar]

They are Slavs at heart and when Putin, and those around him, say they will use nukes if NATO enters this conflict, he, and they, are not bluffing. The idiots running the US believe he is, and it will our undoing.

I agree. I could give the Department of State an insight into Russians in a single sentence: "They're not like us". This has been a timeless truth forgotten or ignored by policy makers in every nation, through all of history. The handful of really successful Statesmen and Diplomats were those who never assumed the other side had the same motivations as they did.

 

[St.Davis]

You all owe the train autist an apology

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I Kneel.