Grace Lavery / Joseph Lavery & Daniel M. Lavery / Mallory Ortberg - "Straight with extra steps" couple trooning out to avoid "dwindling into mere heterosexuality"

Her Toast writing is the apex quirky lit-nerd girl stuff. I was assuming, maybe wrongly, she wanted to change that label after The Toast. The last year of the Toast she looks like a proper young woman, long hair, skirts, blouses, etc…A year after that, and the Toast’s closure, she’s got the full soft butch prog hipster look going in publicly photos.
I think the soft butch style is so trite now. I'm surprised it is still popular in the leftist progressive circle, but it's an easy to maintain style and it's non-threatening to work and normal people, ironically enough.

I was also assuming there might be some noted change in her writing voice when she went from wholesome, quirky chick lit writer to woke transman with troon wife that likes posting photos of their sex life and lives in polycule.

Seems like radical personal transformation might translate into her writing, esp since her much of writing is personal in nature. But minus the generic trans-stuff and woke scold vibe I don’t detect much change in her general quirky girl writing style. Her doing an advice column was a strange given the circumstances.
I wonder what her inner voice is like? Is her writing a forced chore or a chipper facade for what's inside?

Pooner creative writing tends to be even more stereotypically feminine than writing from women who accept they're women.
I think most, if not all, come from fanfiction bacbackgrounds. There are SO many women writers in fanfiction that it is nigh inevitable to be influenced by another woman's writing and not ever figure out what a true and honest male writer sounds like. Sure, there's a lot of male writers in literature, but most of these women are reading hours of romance novels and young adult literature if they're not reading fanfiction, two other genres populated with a lot of women.

Pooners are astounding as they aspire to be the other gender they're attracted to just like AGP males, but while AGP males demand to get into women's spaces and redefine them to THEIR version of women, most pooners chicken out or are outright scared of men. Comes with the territory of being physically weaker and being physically weak nerds, I suppose.

This is so funny and accurate. And Lily saying "I didn't want to read fanfiction, I wanted my life to be a fanfiction." These are two women who were such sheltered homebodies that they don't even have a roadmap for how to rebel or be interesting. It's at this point that Joe worms in and suggests that true liberation comes through humiliating group sex. These are all horribly uncool people, but one of them is so much more degenerate that the other two think of him as the one with cool access because they wouldn't have imagined getting into the things he comes up with.

Honestly, it's hard to convey to these women that being "boring" isn't a bad thing. Had they stayed themselves they would have likely been much more enjoyable to be around and grown into traits and hobbies they earnestly like. Ok, well, I take that back: I think Mal and Lily would stay fairly unpleasant people or spoiled kids in personality. I don't know if there would be any chance for them to be more appealing unless they became less interested in an "image" and less judgy towards others.
 
What’s worse for Bobby Joe: having a delusional narcissist for a father, or a weird hairy yet balding woman who thinks she’s your mother?

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One of the replies linked to this article on American polyamory, which is a fun read apart from the silly final bits which seem to ignore so much of the rest of the article.
 
Someone on reddit claims that Mallory was in a serious relationship with someone, maybe a FTM?, before Joe.

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oh! i stumbled across this post from just glancing through someone's account, and i know some stuff relatively unimportant about daniel lavery. can i share it? is that weird?

someone i know years ago told me that one of their friends had gone through a long relationship with daniel. it was formative for both of them, and daniel sort of used their relationship as fodder for his journey into being a gay trans man, including writing about it and possibly publishing stuff about it. it was super intense, and i repeat: he wrote about that relationship a lot and sort of used it to wax philosophical about being a gay trans masc (a lifestyle that is honestly.... so fraught and hard and intense and emotional, having identified and dated that way once) then out of nowhere, he dumps them and gets with grace, a woman, very suddenly and out of the blue. i am sure i am forgetting details as to why the breakup was so messed up, but he apparently crushed that friend of a friend very deeply and didn't seem to care about it, and the way it was done was messed up enough to have someone several degrees of kevin bacon away from him express disgust that i was reading his book. it put me off finishing the book, since the way it was described was just so cruel. i wish i remembered more details.

i have memory issues so apologies if i missed anything, if anyone else knows this situation i'll happily take correction!

edit: reading more of these comments and learning more about these people... i suspect this would have happened right before he published his book. i do believe my friend wasn't lying to me, (even if they got told a skewed version) as they would have definitely been in a social circle to know someone who dated him.
 
Someone on reddit claims that Mallory was in a serious relationship with someone, maybe a FTM?, before Joe.

Something weirdly fake about that, isn't there? Maybe it's just because the redditor is trying to fluff up a vague bit of gossip into something ever so fascinating. "Can I share it?" As Joe would say, "Tremendous!!!!!!!!!!"
 
Someone on reddit claims that Mallory was in a serious relationship with someone, maybe a FTM?, before Joe.
So to translate from Redditor/idiotese into English:

Mallory was in a lesbian relationship and her partner trooned out. Mallory then went Single White Female on her and copied her "gay transmasc" identity. But along the way she got together with a man, which as usual, the lesbian onlookers viewed as the ultimate betrayal, worse than the bad breakup itself by far.

Indeed. Classic stuff here.
 
Someone on reddit claims that Mallory was in a serious relationship with someone, maybe a FTM?, before Joe.

Hmmm. Not much we can do with that over here in the Land of Compulsory Autistic Receipts. I read through some of that Reddit thread but it is exhausting dealing with their obedient opposite-pronouning. I wonder why Joe doesn't go and argue with them instead of us. Plenty of them are going on about how he wastes money and makes stupid decisions.
 
Hmmm. Not much we can do with that over here in the Land of Compulsory Autistic Receipts. I read through some of that Reddit thread but it is exhausting dealing with their obedient opposite-pronouning. I wonder why Joe doesn't go and argue with them instead of us. Plenty of them are going on about how he wastes money and makes stupid decisions.

Joe thinks KF is cool. You can tell the whole polycule does.

Mal's agent thinks people post here because it makes them feel like badass revolutionaries.

Joe namedrops us the way a music snob would namedrop a particularly obscure, difficult-to-listen-to band. He reads enough of his thread to know different posters and our personalities/posting styles.

If Joe wasn't featured here, he'd have an account and use it to snipe at the troons he finds repugnant.

Everyone, even dummies like Joe, knows that Reddit isn't cool.

Remember when Joe actually showed up briefly to see if he could sit at our table but we laughed at him? Aww.
 
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So to translate from Redditor/idiotese into English:

Mallory was in a lesbian relationship and her partner trooned out. Mallory then went Single White Female on her and copied her "gay transmasc" identity. But along the way she got together with a man, which as usual, the lesbian onlookers viewed as the ultimate betrayal, worse than the bad breakup itself by far.

Indeed. Classic stuff here.
I think the problem was that Mallory is a boring person. She didn’t like that about herself, and instead of happily becoming a single middle aged woman who watches Britbox and PBS, farmer’s market on Saturday with a small photo album of summer travel to England, oatmeal for breakfast and working at her cholesterol, she had to become interesting. She’s still really boring though. She can’t even make her new wild clothes interesting. She’s picked the most boring hair.


Again I posit she could have been a classic literary type. In today’s world the old way of being boring is kind of unique. She could have developed some fun hobbies and kept up with her friends.

The one place I think her parents did really screw her over was her mom’s obsession with weight. I think Mallory felt it was horrible to be a fat or chubby woman so she became a man . I don’t she is the only FTM to transition because the worst thing in this planet is to be a fat woman, according to a lot of people. Instead of jumping in the body positivity wagon and celebrating a real female body with all that it can do and all the pleasure that can be had with it, she chopped off erogenous zones and her hair. She no longer is a fat woman, no. She’s a medium sized man. Phew. All better.

She is rooted in misogyny, as is Joe. I don’t think Lily is. I think Lily is severely misguided and maybe not too bright.
 
Something weirdly fake about that, isn't there? Maybe it's just because the redditor is trying to fluff up a vague bit of gossip into something ever so fascinating. "Can I share it?" As Joe would say, "Tremendous!!!!!!!!!!"
Yeah, I wouldn’t put much credence into this particular bit of anonymous gossip, but it’s easy to believe Mallory would basically use someone as a character study to emulate or learn.

Mallory said she was dating a woman before she hooked up with Joe and every lesbian was being told they were probably just trans by 2016 so I could see whoever she was dating also being “transmasc” or applying that label to their past or present.

Writers either have an extremely solid sense of identity or a very weak one. In Mallory’s case I think she had a solid sense of identity but grew to intensely dislike it. She wanted to radically alter her identity. Maybe see if Joe is enticed by this transmasc Mallory identity it's the right one.

All the ridiculous BS surrounding the concept of “identity” and it's importance in the modern era has convinced lots of unhappy or unsatisfied people that identity is fluid, flexible and can be altered to almost anything they want. They also proclaim it's totally unconnected to your family or biology, esp if it doesn't feel fashionable or "right."

I think Mallory wanted to recreate her image and identity in her late 20’s. For most people this just means adjusting and maturing, maybe aligning yourself more with goals in life. I think for a writer like Mallory it could involve shopping around, using the Bay Area people surrounding her, to come up with a new identity for herself.

Mallory hit the jackpot in terms of family. She was born to a white, relatively affluent, educated, Christian, traditional family that loved her unconditionally and offered opportunities 99% of the world could only dream of. However Mal was also being raised in the Bay Area, where being white, straight, Christian, traditional is so out of fashion. It’s far easier and cooler to be a danger hair trans-scum punk in SF than a Christian woman.

I thought she had been a Christian, if an indifferent or questioning one, up until 2018, but was wrong. She apparently had proud atheist phase a few years before this, even published a Gawker essay on it. (lol) The essay seems to have disappeared, but she referenced it in a the article below but the link is 404. In 2016, after Nicole’s baptism, she gave an interview stating that merely having faith in god (even if she doubted its existence) was enough for her. It seems going to AA meetings and Nicole renewed her sense of faith. This quote caught my attention. I think it's notable that faith returned to degree when surrounded by other people who unashamedly embraced a "higher power" in AA meetings and then when her bestie got baptized.
think sort of the best way I can sum it up for myself is, “There’s probably not a god, but God helps me.” … But I’m not just appreciative bystander to Nicole’s religious faith. I also have some. I don’t always know how to discuss it well. Recently a friend of mine asked point blank if I was, and I was like, “Ha, no, don’t be ridiculous!” And later I had to say like, “Oh, a little though. Sorry. But kind of yes.”[/qoute]
Imagine feeling the need to apologize to a “friend” who asked about your faith or religion. Not just apologize, but her first inclination was to lie and laugh off the idea as absurd. Even better this “ridiculous” idea is one her family has devoted their life in service too,
Imagine feeling the need to apologize to a "friend" who asked about your faith/belief in god. Not just apologize, but her first reaction was to lie and laugh off the idea as absurd. More so, the "ridiculous" idea is one her entire family has devoted their life in service to promoting. "Christian, believe in God me? What a silly notion" I found it very sad that she felt the need to react that way to someone inquiring about it, before meekly admitting maybe a little bit, yes.

Compare this to how Mallory felt about telling "friends" she was trans. Oh the celebrations, the embraces, the fake giddiness and support. Word gets around, everyone coming up to her to tell her how brave and awesome HE is. "Oh, please what's your new name so I can start using it! Daniel fits you perfectly!" Maybe a few had grave doubts about this, but they'd be committing a hate crime if you are going to question someone's new trans identity of someone in California. So even if anyone did think differently about her big reveal they'd never let the supportive mask slip for a second.

This shit is very dangerous for a weak natured, people pleaser and someone who is strongly swayed by peers. Her new identity was far more popular and palatable among her peer group.
 
Her Toast writing is the apex quirky lit-nerd girl stuff. I was assuming, maybe wrongly, she wanted to change that label after The Toast. The last year of the Toast she looks like a proper young woman, long hair, skirts, blouses, etc…A year after that, and the Toast’s closure, she’s got the full soft butch prog hipster look going in publicly photos.

I was also assuming there might be some noted change in her writing voice when she went from wholesome, quirky chick lit writer to woke transman with troon wife that likes posting photos of their sex life and lives in polycule.

Seems like radical personal transformation might translate into her writing, esp since her much of writing is personal in nature. But minus the generic trans-stuff and woke scold vibe I don’t detect much change in her general quirky girl writing style. Her doing an advice column was a strange given the circumstances.

Presenting the public “proud transman with trans wife living in polycule persona” counterproductive if you wanted to continue to writer persona of quirky girl writing centric humor pieces for quirky bookish women. Pooners busting male writer stereotypes I guess? Then again Mallory’s private life only became public fodder after Joe, she seemed fairly private about her personal life until he came on the scene.
The only thing at, at least initially, that I saw chang with her transformation was to go from tone-deaf Prudie with no sense of behavioral norms or wisdom to extra-bad, unrelatable, tone-deaf Prudie with a dull axe to grind about heteronormativity and still no sense of behavioral norms or wisdom to offer. Quirky-clunky was one thing, but her clunky, passive-aggressive nouveau sexual politics was tired and strained from the jump. Like Joe, she thought making herself the story was most important. They're all insufferable.
 
She apparently had proud atheist phase a few years before this, even published a Gawker essay on it. (lol) The essay seems to have disappeared, but she referenced it in a the article below but the link is 404.
The Gawker essay, "Have You Heard the One About the Religious Woman Who Stops Being Religious in College?," is on archive.org here.

Have You Heard the One About the Religious Woman Who Stops Being Religious in College?

Mallory Ortberg
11/17/12 12:50pm
Filed to: TRUE STORIES

In my final year of attending a Christian sports camp in rural Missouri, the year before I started high school, they began to offer an elective Bible study group for young Christians who wanted a chance to read in the afternoons instead of learn to water-ski. The leader was a very kind, very impassioned man with a bristling chestnut mustache. He spent an hour every day for three weeks drawing the geographic conditions that led to the Flood and charting out the life spans of the Patriarchs on an old whiteboard for a group of prepubescent Christian nerds. I thought he was the most compelling person in the world. He had everything I could possibly aspire to have: a masterful command of the Bible, a deep and abiding love of God, a pleasant speaking voice, a dry-erase marker, a captivated audience.

One afternoon, on a bus ride to Branson (a highly anticipated reward for final-year campers), the two of us fell to talking and I ended up confessing my admiration to him. I spoke of how much I loved writing and spirited discussions and studying the Bible; I spoke of my hopes of someday becoming a pastor or a Christian author like some of my other family members. He looked grave. He also looked a great deal like Ned Flanders, something I don't think a lot of the other campers noticed because most of them were not allowed to watch the Simpsons.

"Mallory," he said, "I know you are a strong woman of God." So far, so good. "I know you are very gifted, very intelligent." He paused and wiped his glasses. "I think this impulse you have to – wield authority – over others, over men – comes from the Devil." He said it kindly; he was not angry with me but concerned.

"Ah," I said. Something to consider.

***

There has been plenty of recent talk, some on this very site, about the reduced political and cultural clout of the evangelical movement - in particular the white evangelical movement. Evangelical Christians, of course, are not all white, nor conservative, nor Republicans, but the ones who are have made rather a habit of banding together and making decisions. Mitt Romney drew roughly 80 percent of the white evangelical vote (six points more than John McCain did four years ago, if you're interested) but is not, in fact, currently president, as you may or may not have heard. For the first time, gay marriage won on the ballot. As someone who grew up squarely in the center of that movement, I've found myself keeping tabs on it in an occasional way (How is it doing? Is it getting enough rest? Is it putting itself out there and making new friends?), as with an ex you don't plan on reuniting with but still feel rather fond and protective toward.

I have been able to vote in two presidential elections; both times I have voted for the same candidate; by lucky coincidence I am currently 2 for 2. I have never voted while religious, but had I done so, my vote would have likely been the same. My credentials, briefly: I no longer go to church or believe in God but I can still name every one of the fruits of the Spirit and reeled for days upon hearing the announcement that Audio Adrenaline was reunited with one of the singers from DC Talk. For those of you who grew up in secular homes, replace Audio Adrenaline with the Pixies and DC Talk with the Fugees and you'll start to understand how huge this news was for me (Pity the former evangelical child, who has no religiously themed Buzzfeed to remind her of the liner notes from WOW 1998 or how often Susie Shellenberger used to say "I wish I could take you out for a Coke" in every one of her old Brio columns).

I was raised, as you have so shrewdly guessed, in a moderately liberal household within a deeply religious environment. We went to church twice a week, my parents were employed in ministry, we prayed before dinner, we rollerbladed in the summer, we were allowed to watch the Simpsons, I fought with my younger brother over Legos. I had a copy of the Old Testament that was illustrated like a graphic novel, and I also had every novel published under the Star Wars Expanded Universe imprint published before the year 2000. I learned that every moment of my life, however trivial it seemed at the time, carried in it a potential charge that could draw me either closer to God or further away. I learned that God loved me, much as Mara Jade came to love Luke Skywalker after she was able to shake off the training she had received from Palpatine during her tenure as the Emperor's Hand. I had at least three friends at any given time.

Occasionally I heard things at church or from other Christians that I never heard at home. Human evolution, I learned from a visiting drama ministry team, was like throwing a 1,000-piece puzzle in the air and expecting it to fall to the ground fully assembled. I should have my father co-sign a purity pledge and buy me commemorative jewelry (I understood the purity part well enough but couldn't figure how a parental signature or a ring from Claire's entered into things). Being gay was like looking into a dirty mirror; it clouded God's image of you somehow. These suggestions flew in too low and close for immediate analysis; most of them were filed away for later consideration.

When I was in sixth grade, I saw an ad for a well-known chain of Christian sports camps in rural Missouri and immediately begged my parents to let me go. When you spend so much of your time in an atmosphere of intensified spiritual awareness, the chance to sequester yourself with biblically-minded woodsmen is like a trip to the spa. The camp I went to was run by an inexhaustibly cheerful, impossibly sunburnt staff who loved nothing more than discussing theology with twelve-year-olds struggling through their first ropes course.

I loved it.

The differences between the evangelicals of northern Illinois and the evangelicals of Missouri, however, were immediately apparent. All non-biblical reading materials were confiscated upon arrival and held in the infirmary until the end of camp. This included the copy of Time magazine I inexplicably brought my first summer. Please feel free to imagine how insufferable a sixth-grader I must have been to bring Time magazine to a Christian sports camp. Unleash that imagination; allow it to caper and leap and burst through any limits that might restrict it. I went back for three successive years.

It was in the third year that my cheerful, unquestioning self-confidence ran up against this brick wall in the form of a mustachioed man. "The devil knows you have remarkable abilities," he said on the bus that day, "and it's through your abilities that he wants to tempt you. You should not become a minister; it would be a perversion of God's plan for you. Will you let me pray over you for guidance and release?"

There is no real way to say no to this question, by the way. I said yes, and he prayed, and I gave some thought to what he had said – I was barely fourteen, I had barely had time to be credulous yet, much less reject new ideas. Later, when I told my mother what he had said to me, she seemed both sad and angry as she explained why interpretation of the Bible was wrong. I found it merely curious - it felt absurdly clear, after a few minutes' consideration, to me that this man was simply mistaken, and his mistake made me laugh. He was a kind man and well-intentioned, but he was wrong and I knew it and he passed out of my life as quickly as he entered into it.

As a now-former evangelical myself, I'm well aware of their value in the fairly small marketplace of possible converts: it usually means plenty of speaking gigs, mid-list memoirs and lots of attention at the post-service coffee hour (cocktail hour if you decide to become a depraved Episcopalian. Have you heard the one about Episcopalians? It isn't really a joke so much as a bitchy list, but I never tire of it. A Methodist is a Baptist who can read; a Presbyterian is a Methodist who has gone to college; an Episcopalian is a Presbyterian who has married into the Social Register. See? It isn't very good).

Have you heard the one about the religious person who stops being religious in college? You have; excellent, I will be brief. I attended an evangelical Christian university on the outskirts of suburban Los Angeles and by the time of my graduation was neither evangelical nor Christian. There was a group of students I became aware of toward the end of my senior year – liminal Christians, mostly – some tentatively-out gays, social justice activists willing to remove their shoes and go about barefoot on anyone's behalf at a moment's notice, participants in the emerging church movement, nonbelievers and near-Catholics and other aberrants – who attended a nearby Episcopal church (see what I mean about those Episcopalians?) and created something of an underground gay support network.

There has always been a small but significant part of the church, of course, that focuses on issues of poverty and equality rather than buying expensive rings for young virgins; it has always been possible and often common for someone to possess a rich and layered faith in God without being a total fucking asshole about it. But I remember the general atmosphere on the campus of my Christian school after Election Day in 2008. There were a great number of trembling jaws and red-rimmed eyes; there were plenty of Yes on 8 signs dotting nearby lawns (I could not have been expected to deface them all; I had class and mandatory chapel to attend). Someone - I didn't personally know the young man who did it - decorated his truck with a Confederate flag and parked it prominently on campus. The window on the driver's side was smashed in with a rock. All students received a letter about how the situation was being handled. I fled in the spring.

I am not a part of the church now, although there are plenty of churches that would have room for me; this is not a shift I am taking part in from the inside. It is in some circles not uncommon to hear that religious people, particularly social conservatives, are dying without being replaced, that it's simply a matter of waiting the requisite number of years before America blossoms into the secular paradise the fanciest of our Founding Fathers always meant it to be. I don't think it's very likely. But it is a new and a promising and a hopeful development for us that the contingent of evangelical Christians who would see this country based on a rigid hierarchy bolstered by fear of the unknown, the unrestrained, the uncontrolled are no longer the most influential and the most powerful. That's good for the church, and I am grateful for that – it is not my home now but it was home to me for the earliest and the most formative years of my life, and it was a good home. It should continue to be a good home. The Bible also teaches little girls that they can grow up to drive spikes into the heads of Canaanite generals, and I think there's value in that.

That Bible study teacher ended up being right, of course, as anyone familiar with this type of story might have guessed. I did not become a minister; instead I moved to San Francisco, with many of the attendant implications. "We're really going to miss you. Have fun in San Francisco," a boy in my history class wrote in my yearbook that year. "Hope you don't turn gay there." It was an AP class.

This sounds like the kind of thing a person would make up in order to highlight a point, but it also happened in real life.

Mallory Ortberg is a writer and editor living in the Bay Area.
 
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A thoughtful, if not especially interesting, take on her religious background. How strange to know in a few years she'll be with Joe, and all that will come with that, including his hatred of Christianity.

I do like this part:

Someone - I didn't personally know the young man who did it - decorated his truck with a Confederate flag and parked it prominently on campus. The window on the driver's side was smashed in with a rock. All students received a letter about how the situation was being handled. I fled in the spring.
So Mallory. Girl, you didn't 'flee,' and all that word implies - you graduated and left like everyone else.
 
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The Gawker essay, "Have You Heard the One About the Religious Woman Who Stops Being Religious in College?," is on archive.org here.
Thanks for digging it up. Mallory seemed to really enjoy and thrive in the evangelical Christian environment she was raised in. I’m accustomed to adults who were absolutely miserable in crazy Christian households. It’s odd that she decided eventually throw the baby out with the bath water. (Well it would seem Joe and Lilly brought a baby back in regardless.)

I’m also gobsmacked that the worst stories a girl raised as an evangelical Christian can dredge up are “weird Bible studies Ned Flanders at summer camp believed in women’s subservience and harboring devils” and “teenager put confederate flag in vehicle window” which resulted in the champions of justice smashing his window. She really did live in a comfy bubble. People who spent a weekend with a southern Baptist cousin have better Christian horror stories.

Given the levels of progressive purity and trans-scolding she has embraced maybe Mallory was just hungry for extremism and her parents failed by not serving up fire, brimstone, and damnation. At least conservative Baptist parents would have given her some legit grievances to write about.

I give her credit for being honest in the piece, it would have been easy to exaggerate or make-up stories to show how awful Christian evangelicals were to the Gawker audience, who were hungry for it. Much like she could have lied about her father or brother molesting her if she wanted to amp up the drama to max.

Then again 2012 was a much simpler time. Young progressive readers dismayed at confederate flag in a vehicle window and yard signs supporting Prop 8. It was all so clear.

The ante must be upped! In a decade you can call people bigot for thinking there should be women only rape/domestic violence shelters, never assume pronouns and are an obvious racist if you didn’t support BLM protests on SM. Then in twelve years they get to eat each other over not supporting Hamas. It really is a repeat of the mistakes of 60’s liberalism, then radicalism, ending in conflagration of retarded extremism and infighting. We just need a Murdoch heir to be kidnapped and later rob banks to aid in the neurodivergent trans sex workers of color revolution.

It shocks me how people in today’s current political climate never took the time to learn from the mistakes of the fairly recent political past and have repeated them so earnestly.
 
"Mallory," he said, "I know you are a strong woman of God." So far, so good. "I know you are very gifted, very intelligent." He paused and wiped his glasses. "I think this impulse you have to – wield authority – over others, over men – comes from the Devil." He said it kindly; he was not angry with me but concerned.
The way he phrased this is very culturally specific to their little evangelical world. And maybe that wording is too off-putting for many outside that world to put aside in order to hear the underlying message. But basically he was calling her out on her pride. Her ego. Her desire to be the center of attention and the focus of admiration. And he was right.

Most of us at that age-11, 12- are the most larval version of the adult we will eventually become. We're not cute toddlers or bumbling little kids anymore. The personality shows through enough you can guess pretty well what a kid will grow up to be like. And we're also obnoxious as all hell, each in our own special ways. Imagine raw, unfiltered young Mallory. An arrogant, smug know-it-all little goody two shoes teacher's pet. Someone who has been told over and over again by mommy and daddy and Mrs. Johnson in 5th grade how very clever she is, how mature for her age, how prim and proper and what a good example she is to the raggedy rough and tumble off-task little boys.

We are supposed to undergo some refining and some character formation between sixth grade and adulthood, that takes the good (smart, funny, diligent) and hones it and takes the bad (arrogant smirking little asswipe) and tones it way down. Sometimes clever kids, especially verbally adept kids like Mallory, are able to evade this process by intellectualizing to themselves all the reasons why every single critic and critique was wrong, akshually. I think we all know what happened here.
 
In Mallory’s case I think she had a solid sense of identity but grew to intensely dislike it. She wanted to radically alter her identity.

Agree on the weak/very strong dichotomy with writers, but I query this. I’ve always seen her as a rather weak person. The issue IMO is an individual’s role in shaping their own identity. Mal got a clear identity from her very close and supportive family, but not one she seems to have actively shaped through external challenges. She lived in a bit of a bubble. She gets with Joe. He wants to Yoko her. She embraces it, leaves one bubble for another and takes on a new identity dictated by the bubble.

Imagine her doing a solo trip backpacking around the world, meeting people without degrees who don’t speak English, and learning a manual skill from random villagers. No, I can’t either. It’s too hard, too challenging. No-one to set the rules, tell her she’s great for playing well by them. She would be responsible for herself.

She’s just lucky she didn’t get recruited by Scientology instead, otherwise she’d be on staff and working long hours at a manual job for no money. At least this way she gets $18 an hour. None of this absolves her of responsibility.

We are supposed to undergo some refining and some character formation between sixth grade and adulthood, that takes the good (smart, funny, diligent) and hones it and takes the bad (arrogant smirking little asswipe) and tones it way down. Sometimes clever kids, especially verbally adept kids like Mallory, are able to evade this process by intellectualizing to themselves all the reasons why every single critic and critique was wrong, akshually. I think we all know what happened here.

Yep. The lack of character formation is key here.

It really is a repeat of the mistakes of 60’s liberalism

Fortuna spins the wheel and smirks.
 
Agree on the weak/very strong dichotomy with writers, but I query this. I’ve always seen her as a rather weak person. The issue IMO is an individual’s role in shaping their own identity. Mal got a clear identity from her very close and supportive family, but not one she seems to have actively shaped through external challenges. She lived in a bit of a bubble. She gets with Joe. He wants to Yoko her. She embraces it, leaves one bubble for another and takes on a new identity dictated by the bubble.
I struggled on how to phrase it because I agree she does have a weak sense of identity. I started with that as blanket statement, “she is not a writer with a strong identity.” Then I considered her family/ childhood provided an identity for her that she seemed comfortable with until she neared adulthood. But I’m too verbose as it is so didn’t want to keeping quantify my statements and weakly tried to keep my word count down.

Someone with a truly strong sense of identity would have never ended up in Mallory’s predicament. I think the people she wanted to impress or please just changed from parents/teachers to a peer group /particular audience (Nicole/ Toast readers) to Bay Area gays and ending with old Joe. The last twelve years must have been exhausting for a people pleaser in progressive circles.
 
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Coming back to this:
Being called insane by Elon Musk can go straight to a girl’s head

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What a mischievous old sex potato he is.

Joe absolutely does not know anything about Fourier, but he does remember Marcuse claiming Fourier wanted to make pleasure the highest goal of society.
Because I realized that Joe rarely cites Marcuse, didn't here for example, but his position seems to literally be Marcuse's. That anyone not being permissive of anything you want to do is oppressive. Hence his statement that "nothing should be a crime" because the Marcusian utopia is one where there's no limitations on you doing whatever you want, even language won't oppress you by limiting your thoughts by constraining meaning. A permanent state of Eros where you just act freely on every impulse.

I certainly wouldn't want to accuse the good professor currently under siege by the Berkeley TERFs of not citing his sources so nobody can clearly go to the source and read the superior yet still stupid, incoherent and overly wordy version of his ideas but can I stop others from coming to that conclusion? I wouldn't want to repress them by limiting the individual possibilities at their fingertips. Plus it's certainly possible he came to this position entirely independently with zero knowledge of such a popular radical critical theorist.
 
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