Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[LucasSomething]

Saw an interesting thread on reddit ranting about hazbin on the court episode saying it's the most stupid thing ever. It's kinda long but i'll focus on this one bit they said:

2) "Charlie being ill prepared*: Charlie already begins the trial wrong by bringing in a bunch of definitions, which not only doesn't prove that souls can be redeemed, but is also offensive to the people she is pitching the hotel to because it's a tad belittling. Also not only are those papers with definitions and drawings her opening statement, that's all that she has, which is weird because she was more prepared when she met Adam, in fact she was doing well with Adam, she was explaining what the hotel, what it does, and why they should accept it and even appealing to his clear laziness, the only reason she failed was because Adam doesn't do the exterminations just because they are his job, he does for fun too. If Charlie actually put in the same amout of work and competency she would have brought with her and showed Serpentious to give his own statements about the hotel and his stay there, he made remarkable progress despite being in the hotel for 5 months at best. But instead Charlie is ill prepared and she ends up relying entirely on luck, imagine how much more different the trial would have happened if Angel Dust had been just sleeping, or in the salon cutting his hair, or wanking, or doing literally ANYTHING else.

(I actually wish to correct a previous comment i made. I said Charlie brought out stuff Angel did offscreen but she actually livestreamed Angel and she had no way to know what Angel was doing. Charlie literally had no plan. Angel miraculously happened to do the exact things she needed to argue against Adam.)

And here is some funny exchanges by a hazbin defender insisting it's not Charlie's fault because "she was stressed" (click to enhance)

 

[InJailOutSoon]

The meme should go like this:
Vivziepop fans happy at Valentino
Vivziepop fans rage at Adam

They like Valentino who was basically sexual harassing Charlie and wanted to pimp out Nifty, but hate Adam because he's a misogynistic dudebro.

Oh believe me, the Vivziepop fans love Adam too. You...you don't have to look too deep to find that.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

she actually livestreamed

She didn’t even live-stream it, it was an angel who used her magic ball to livestream everything, and the one who greenlit the exterminations because of the belief of an active plan by Hell to invade Heaven.

The extermination plot is really stupid because if the angels were doing it for fun like Adam or it was for overpopulation, it would be fine. But nope it’s done for le greater good because this dumbass seraphim who has a magic crystal ball that can look into Hell and has direct contact with Lucifer, didn’t bother to even fact check if there was a Hell uprising against Heaven.

Like I ranted about this before, but it keeps getting ridiculous the more I think about it.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

The whole courtroom scene really is just fucking stupid all around. Nothing about it makes any logical sense? Why would Sera even hold a trial if she's trying to keep the extermination a secret from the other angels? That's the whole reason why Charlie is trying to redeem Sinners in the first place. To STOP the exterminations. Did it not cross Sera's mind that Charlie might would have brought that up in her case?

 

[didelphigina]

Kind of a nothingburger but Brandon's apparently done wrapping up for season two, and from the clip provided, I'm assuming it's related to him finishing all his lines. I don't even know what other character he voiced other than Katie Killjoy in the first season, so I'm curious on what other characters he could've probably voiced in the second season. But I'm being a bit optimistic here.

Saw an interesting thread on reddit ranting about hazbin on the court episode saying it's the most stupid thing ever. It's kinda long but i'll focus on this one bit they said:



(I actually wish to correct a previous comment i made. I said Charlie brought out stuff Angel did offscreen but she actually livestreamed Angel and she had no way to know what Angel was doing. Charlie literally had no plan. Angel miraculously happened to do the exact things she needed to argue against Adam.)

And here is some funny exchanges by a hazbin defender insisting it's not Charlie's fault because "she was stressed" (click to enhance)

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People should really accept the fact that the whole trial went nowhere and Charlie being stressed's no excuse for her underperformance. All she had in her hands was some notecards that only showed how ignorant she was towards the sinners of Hell, which only justified Adam's claims even more because how can the princess of Hell not know how sin works and see sin as some kind of "throwing sand at the child you got mad at me" kind of action. But then again, Adam doesn't know how people can get into Heaven as much as Charlie doesn't know how SIN really works, so they're both hypocrites in their own right, and that could've been explored well if the courtroom actually had a reason to exist and wasn't just there to antagonize Sera's backflopping reasoning for the extermination.

Like I ranted about this before, but it keeps getting ridiculous the more I think about it.

That's how I felt the more I looked through Hazbin Hotel and HB- the more I looked at the episodes and the more I saw people's critiques about it, the more I came up with my own theories and thoughts that all equated to "what???", "this doesn't make sense...", "WHAT KIND OF JUSTIFICATION IS THAT??", "this is more inconsistent and broken than a mcdonald's ice cream machine my GODD".

And such thoughts're only gonna get worse in Season 2 of Hazbin Hotel and possibly the rest of the episodes of Season 2 HB.

The whole courtroom scene really is just fucking stupid all around. Nothing about it makes any logical sense? Why would Sera even hold a trial if she's trying to keep the extermination a secret from the other angels? That's the whole reason why Charlie is trying to redeem Sinners in the first place. To STOP the exterminations. Did it not cross Sera's mind that Charlie might would have brought that up in her case?

They had to be dumb for the plot. All of these characters do actions without double thinking. Again, the extermination's so useless of an idea. Like, isn't the point of Hell is that it's a place where people suffer in, forever in purgatory? Killing them only alleviates that and yet we're suppose to sympathize with the poor sinners who probably deserved the killings? Of course, not everyone in Hell's a Hitler or an Epstein (points if you get the reference) but why not show that? That's the thing- they couldn't. Charlie knows about sinners as much as we know about the character's past lives. We're only told to see them as these blokes who just so happened to do bad in their human lives and got to Hell and are totally "redeeming" themselves.

There's no mixed-media of sinners who are clearly irredeemable or sinners who got to Hell because of actions they had no choice to do, which again, could've been explored very well and showcased to Sera if Charlie actually had a brain. But no, no, Angel Dust doing basic human decency and GOOD BOY deeds are apparently the needed requirements to get to Heaven.

Hell is easy to get in to, but getting into Heaven is harder, they say. I just- I don't know man. I could jot down a whole list of things that Charlie could've done to bring up Heaven's backwards understanding of what gets someone into Heaven and how much they misunderstand Hell and its sinners (not in terms of them being innocent "didndunuffin" people but in terms of how much sin truly varies and that not every sin committed by a sinner was done by choice or malicious reasons), but that would take a whole spoiler/tl;dr to do.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Hazbin's whole justification for the extermination is really retarded. Like overpopulation is the only way it can work with the idea of reformation in the very basic sense is overpopulation. But it became convoluted just to set up Eve ("Lilith") as the main villain of the show by making up the extermination to stop her uprising which totally could not have been prevented by doing basic research, and see that Hell is as threatening to Heaven as a poor neighborhood is to the US military.

A Heaven vs Hell plot in the traditional sense would also make more sense compared to the idiotic attempt at making the dumbass Seraphim morally grey, at least having exterminations happen out of fun could work.

Or even the third option where VivziePop acknowledges her version of Hell is ineffective against punishing sinners by letting them just live consequence-free lives and the extermination happens due to Hell not even punishing anyone.

But this all happens for a dumb misunderstanding.

 

[LucasSomething]

Even within it's own internal logic, both overpopulation and preventing uprising are arbitrary and nonsensical.

For starters, Sinners are only allowed in Pride ring so 6/7 of hell is ignored in this dillema. Maybe the other rings are overcrowded but why isnt that a problem too? And wouldnt demons also be a threat to heaven? If Lucifer can fuck up Adam, other sins surely can fuck up angels.

The other is that Adam somehow only ever kills weak no name hobos while letting other sinners live or demons become high tier threats. Alastor is a sinner who became overlord and he survived almost 100 years of exterminations. Carmine might be a demon (?) but she manufactres angel killing weapons and no red flags were raised in heaven?

You can at least argue overpopulation is "arbitrary" but it doesnt "help preventing an uprising" at all.

I saw a comment from that reddit say that Vivzie is probably writing songs first and twisting the plot into forcing them. She probably wanted charlie to yell at Sera being dumb regardless of the logic to get there.

The whole courtroom scene really is just fucking stupid all around. Nothing about it makes any logical sense? Why would Sera even hold a trial if she's trying to keep the extermination a secret from the other angels? That's the whole reason why Charlie is trying to redeem Sinners in the first place. To STOP the exterminations. Did it not cross Sera's mind that Charlie might would have brought that up in her case?

 

[didelphigina]

Even within it's own internal logic, both overpopulation and preventing uprising are arbitrary and nonsensical.

For starters, Sinners are only allowed in Pride ring so 6/7 of hell is ignored in this dillema. Maybe the other rings are overcrowded but why isnt that a problem too? And wouldnt demons also be a threat to heaven? If Lucifer can fuck up Adam, other sins surely can fuck up angels.

The other is that Adam somehow only ever kills weak no name hobos while letting other sinners live or demons become high tier threats. Alastor is a sinner who became overlord and he survived almost 100 years of exterminations. Carmine might be a demon (?) but she manufactres angel killing weapons and no red flags were raised in heaven?

These are questions I really enjoyed seeing. Adam likes treating himself as a powerful angel that no one can mess with. So, in that case, why not try and target the Overlords? Why null out the homeless LA population but not with the higher powers? Is it cause Adam fears of being overpowered? OF COURSE NOT, HE'S ADAM! So why did it take until some half-bummed """"""""war"""""" for him to go over an overlord aka Alastor, who I feel he didn't even KNOW was an overlord. It's so anticlimactic and it would've been a lot more impactful if they specifically only went towards the demons who they feel is an actual threat.

Even though, again, Adam can just wipe them all as easy as he did with Sir Pentious. But nah, the plot doesn't demand it.

 

[make_it_so]

It was me coming across that "7 Deadly Sins of Modern Writing" video by that weird Weeb/Furry YouTuber that's been posted a few times here in the thread that actually even made me aware of this show and its creator, and what prompted me to watch the YouTube Pilot (which I enjoyed a lot) and the show proper (which I...didn't enjoy quite so much).

I pretty much have the same praise for the show that so many others have expressed in here - the designs and style are neat, the songs are pretty catchy (I really like both "Hell is Forever" and "You Didn't Know"), and I do admire the core concept - truth be told, I'm something of a bleeding-heart sucker for stories about people trying to find redemption, or about otherwise despicable people showing sparks of humanity and signs of hope/desire to move away from their bad ways and habits (that was what really drew me towards Black Lagoon, even though that was ultimately a rather ancillary aspect of that series).

But everything in the show around that? It's a complete hot fucking mess.

People have pointed it out before, but it's truly stunning how some fan works can have far more compelling story and character development than the actual episodes of an alleged "adult" show:

In this little comic/video, we get
1. An actually compelling reason for why Vaggie would be so fiercely loyal and protective of Charlie besides "lol they're girlfriends"
2. A fully aware in-universe reminder/understanding that this story takes place in fucking Hell, an immensely fucked up and dangerous place full of immensely fucked up and dangerous people
3. A sincere exploration of the themes of seeking redemption and wanting to atone for past misdeeds - you know, the thing this entire fucking show is supposed to be premised on
NGL, this whole thing actually made me tear up

I watch something like this, and then watch the actual episodes and can't help but shake my head and sigh

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"I'm not interested in the actual premise of the story or its core cast of characters, that's boring! Give me the unimportant lolrandom shit instead!" Dear lord, this generation is hopeless.

Why are nerds like Vivziepop and her fans so obsessed with lore and theories?

I mean, I love mythology so I like lore in my stories too but Hazbin’s lore is terrible.

I've been giving some thought to this, and in doing so I've noticed that this is actual a phenomenon that's occurring with a lot of media these days.

And it boils down to three words: Social. Media. Engagement.

I actually first noticed this with HBO's Westworld, another series that started off strong with an amazing premise and potential, only to wind up going completely down the shitter in a fit of poorly written stupidity. Throughout season 1 and in the space between seasons 1 and 2, there was constant speculation and discussion in online spaces about where it was going, what Anthony Hopkins' character had been trying to accomplish, what part Ed Harris' character would ultimately play or what his goal was, and so forth.

Anyone who's seen Westworld Season 2 and onward will probably no doubt agree with me when I say that in the end, the fan speculation proved to be far more intelligent and compelling than what the hacks at HBO ultimately shat out.

But I don't think that mattered to any of the people in charge. The setting up of ultimately empty mystery boxes and all the Twitter/YouTube fan speculation that spawned from it generated a lot of talk and buzz about the show. I genuinely suspect that the producers and heads at HBO actually cared more about the online engagement and search algorithm metrics related to the show than about actual viewership of the show. Whether you want to chalk it up as yet another example of how the Silicon Valley tech company mentality has seeped in and poisoned the rest of Corporate America or what, it's there, and I suspect we're going to keep seeing it pop up a lot more often with more and more media projects going forward, especially with all these cable or streaming shows that have very limited episode runs.

 

[I_Am_Not_Bruce_Willis]

the Silicon Valley tech company mentality

Fascinating. I sometimes think about just how reliant pop culture and a lot of the systems that used to operate completely independent in previous decades have become so reliant on the mentality and systems owned by Microsoft, Apple, Google, and Amazon. It's like there's this Quadopoly where those 4 corps have so many other companies and systems on strings and the reason we're just now finally getting a steady stream of good media like Pizza Tower, TADC, and AntonBlast is that they all exist outside of the "Silicon Valley/infinite growth/data farming" bubble.

 

[LucasSomething]

These are questions I really enjoyed seeing. Adam likes treating himself as a powerful angel that no one can mess with. So, in that case, why not try and target the Overlords? Why null out the homeless LA population but not with the higher powers? Is it cause Adam fears of being overpowered? OF COURSE NOT, HE'S ADAM! So why did it take until some half-bummed """"""""war"""""" for him to go over an overlord aka Alastor, who I feel he didn't even KNOW was an overlord. It's so anticlimactic and it would've been a lot more impactful if they specifically only went towards the demons who they feel is an actual threat.

Even though, again, Adam can just wipe them all as easy as he did with Sir Pentious. But nah, the plot doesn't demand it.

Reminder that Adam

1-Calls Angel Dust the "The porn demon" and says he has no chance of going to heaven, meaning he DOES know angel and logically should know about some "famous" hell people.

2-Recognizes Vaggie and both he and lute know she is Charlie's girlfriend,, implying he's probably aware of what happens in the hotel.

There is also the magic orb thing that would let Adam spy

yet Adam

3-Had no idea who killed the exterminator, much less HOW they did it. He seemingly never cared to even search about it either ("That's how they can kill us? With our own weapons?"). I can forgive Adam not giving a fuck but Lute didnt bother either??

4-Has no idea who's Alastor despite his presence in the hotel and being a +100 year old sinner.

The only theory i see for these is people unironically say "surely Adam watches gay porn" and "Adam is just THAT stupid and arrogant he didnt care".

Hazbin is like rwby where characters are written in the "vaacum" of their current scene. Adam just knows what he needs to know in order for THAT particular scene to be funny or dramatic, with no care for how one thing would affect the other. He's an "arrogant badass" so he's as conveniently competent or stupid as Vivzie needs him to be.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Huh...that's actually interesting...stupid, but interesting that angels know certain ongoings in Hell. It reminds me of Helluva Boss when Mrs. Mayberry knew that she was unsuccessful in killing whats-her-name for some reason.

I'll give these shows this....they do propose many unintentional questions that love to wrap my head around in trying to figure out with the broken plot and terrible world building.

 

[didelphigina]

Huh...that's actually interesting...stupid, but interesting that angels know certain ongoings in Hell. It reminds me of Helluva Boss when Mrs. Mayberry knew that she was unsuccessful in killing whats-her-name for some reason.

I'll give these shows this....they do propose many unintentional questions that love to wrap my head around in trying to figure out with the broken plot and terrible world building.

Oh, yeah, I didn't even know that. I do wonder how the woman even knew she unsuccessfully killed Martha (the woman who was sleeping with her husband and also the woman who was actually a murderous psychopath mid way throughout the episode). Maybe it's because she didn't see her in hell? Because I'm assuming Martha's sinner-form would definitely show some signs of it being her. I don't know the jump cut between her killing herself and her eventually getting the souls (the show's currency in Hell) to go to I.M.P headquarters and pay Blitzo to kill Martha for her, but I'm assuming some few days or weeks went by, so this definitely gave her a lot of time to realize that Martha wasn't killed and thus went to Blitzo for help.

That's a really interesting thing to think about, honestly. I know the whole situation and her being around Blitzo definitely didn't happen on the same day, so this is really my best explanation for how she flippin knew she was unsuccessful in killing Martha.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Honestly I would shrug it off as it being an episodic comedy but uh given the second season, I guess those questions need to be thought of.

 

[AnOminous]

That's a really interesting thing to think about, honestly. I know the whole situation and her being around Blitzo definitely didn't happen on the same day, so this is really my best explanation for how she flippin knew she was unsuccessful in killing Martha.

She was lauded in the news as a brave survivor and a hero. I imagine people in Hell have some way of paying attention to actual news from aboveground.

Honestly I would shrug it off as it being an episodic comedy but uh given the second season, I guess those questions need to be thought of.

I think a lot of the problem with modern Western animation is not being able to decide whether it wants to be episodic comedy or have story arcs. HB is a huge example of this, because it went totally schizo and apparently decided the episodic comedy shit went out the window and it was just going to be gay fujo shit from now on.

I thought the first season of HB actually had the balance down right, where you'd have something like every other episode being about the series premise. That would have been enough to keep me happy.

 

[Jormungand]

I think a lot of the problem with modern Western animation is not being able to decide whether it wants to be episodic comedy or have story arcs. HB is a huge example of this, because it went totally schizo and apparently decided the episodic comedy shit went out the window and it was just going to be gay fujo shit from now on.

It's far worse than that.

The biggest problem with modern animation is that they cannot commit to any of their ideas.
They can't decide if they want their shows to be episodic or serialized. They're always confused about whether they want their show to be a dark comedy, a serious drama, or even the premise of their show.
Consequently, without exception, all their shows come off as entirely tone-deaf.

You can see this with Hazbin Hotel, where they'll have a moment with Angel Dust struggling with his abusive relationship with Valentino and how it's clearly tearing him apart, but then five seconds later, they'll have Sir Pentious getting raped and treat it like a joke unironically.

You can't do that.
You cannot just discuss a serious subject such as sexual abuse with one character and then quickly make jokes about it with another.
It kills whatever drama you're trying to make out of that discussion because you refuse to take it seriously.
You need to understand the right time to tell the joke, and modern animators and writers are hopelessly inept at determining the tone of pacific moments.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

I genuinely suspect that the producers and heads at HBO actually cared more about the online engagement and search algorithm metrics related to the show than about actual viewership of the show.

I bet their tune quickly changed when westworld's viewership dropped like a lead brick season by season leading to it getting cancelled with an unfinished story.


Fact of the matter is, "lore", "engagement" and shipping can't carry any show on their own, you still need a modicum of actual writing for people to cling onto long term.

 

[Roger Dennis]

Back to Stella for a moment because wow, this is some serious cope I came across.

 

[LucasSomething]

Back to Stella for a moment because wow, this is some serious cope I came across.

I already saw this video and it's annoys me how people keep quoting some this smug fucker who keeps making dishonest arguments.

Spoiler

>(season 1) Stella and Stolas have been loveless for a long time. The implication being, they never were.

No dude, Octavia explicitly says she "misses when her parents didnt hate each other". It was made clear they must've loved each other once. He points out most pro-stella arguments but this one line he avoids completely because he knows there is no defense.



Stolas even says "happening right now" which would make no sense if him and stella always hated each other.

>So it ends up not being that shocking when she wants to kill the man. She's terrible. She shouldnt do it.

Wtf do you mean this lol. Blitzo kills innocent people for money and it's ok cause "ITS HELL BRO" but this fandom talks like stella putting a bounty on her hubby people talk like it's irredemable. The most you can say is her not caring about Octavia's felling but Stolas doesnt either.

>Stella is just a petty bitch, to the point when stolas cheats you root for him, cause it's framed as him getting that sweet revenge. This is by design. Sure this could've been written more morally gray but that's not the point. The point is to show Stolas tragic backstory.

"Dont you understand that, by complaining they made stela evil, you miss that point that they made her evil?"

>Sure, wife being a beat so husband can justifiedly cheat is a bad trope but i think it's fine here. Yes, Stella is being thrown under the bus for Stolas more compelling. If you dont like that trope you wont like that trope. But her voice actress is so good and i find her so enjoyable!

We literally cant win.

>ok but lets compare to owl house and mcu-

omg this dude only watches mainstream slop jesus christ

>Mysoginists elements that thrive on tearing down female characters is a machine of outrage and death of nuance. No conversation can be ended with "the writing failed this character", fanbases will treat them like real people. (...) The people who always hate stella now feel vindicated while her defenders are calling it character assassination.

He's becoming self aware.

>Congrats to the haters you won. Have fun hating her. To all defenders tho, this is not a retcon. Yes, she was trying to kill stolas. But this doesnt justify her breaking the house and throws this butler imp. So for this episode to reveal Stella was always a terrible person, yeah that tracks. (...)

This dude is unironically arguing Stella was always evil cause she broke pots and threw an imp at stolas once in a fit of rage. WHAT A MONSTER!

>Sure her pulling the blanket and telling Stolas to watch Octavia isnt that bad, but it's a problem when it's shown to be part of a bigger pattern, that this is what she always does. Stella is always putting herself over Stolas. She's always been like this. She's never shown considering "maybe throwin this imp a bad thing" (LOL). It's always her feelings that matter over everyone else.

What do you mean, """"pattern""""? Yes, Stella is only ever shown shitting on Stolas because they literally never shown her on any other situation whatsoever. We still dont know how she interacts with octavia and the little we've seen from her brother it seems Stella is obeys him while she uses her a a pawn.

I'm not gonna argue Stella was "retconned" or not but the problem is that stella haters keep using "Stela was always evil BECAUSE she had no scenes shown otherwise" and that doesnt work because both are dishonest premises based on lack of knowledge.

Also, the burden of love is always on stella for some reason. Like, people take "Stella always hated stolas" as a FACT but the idea that "Stolas always hated Stella" seemingly doesnt compute as a possibility. He disliked her on first sight and fell for blitzo as kid, with the fandom insisting he's 100% a faggot.

What if Stella actually tried to like Stolas, but ended up hating him due to years of neglect? There is no evidence to prove Stella hated him first isnt there? No matter how vivzie tries, she keeps accidentally gifting Stella the benefit of doubt.

 

[Grand Duke Snowfall]

Stella throwing the butler Imp in a fit of rage and calling a hit man on Stolas: Proof that she’s an evil bitch
Stolas using the same butler Imp as a stress ball and Blitzo having a hit business: No problems here, guys!