Would a demon actually cheat a human in a deal? - A schizo post

[ArnoldPalmer]

There's actually no concept of demons in Judaism, at least not in the Christian sense. Witchcraft and divination are still serious sins in both religions though.

It's less about that and more trying to Lawyer The Supernatural. Israel's etymological origin (To "Wrestle" With God) literally comes out of trying to lawyer the supernatural.

 

[Newfag14]

Woops, I messed up the reply
@Str8Bustah


Let's take a 40ft view of this discussion
You are 100% correct when it comes to the finer points of stuff like monasticism, theosis and such and know how to spin it in a way that is more "idealistic" and adherent to the stuff pious people say. You really do know your stuff, I will give you that.

I on the other hand will admit that I will of course misrepresent topics of the faith and spin them in a "heretical" way that reduces them down to just some concepts that people adhere to for reasons that are pretty much just material or the product of humans being illogical, retarded and easy to be distracted from hard material facts.

I was once decently versed in theology as a guy who read a lot of scripture and talked to all kinds of clergy. At some point, after many years I just accepted that i wasted like +5 years of my adult life attending church services on a regular basis, reading scripture and books on doctrine, praying etc... All those years, nothing changed for the better in my life because of spiritual practice but rather despite of it. I don't fall for sunk cost fallacy, especially when it comes to something that is intellectual in nature.
All improvement I got in life was because I decided to improve something and go through the measures as best as possible that were required.
In my opinion, a person that says that he didn't take up a spiritual practice for self-improvement, a personal gain, escapism, etc... but for "god" or whatever is someone very dishonest (with themselves) or coping hard, monks included.
There are of course many fancy arguments that say other wise and also claim some "ultimate truth". You even used some of those fancy arguments in your replies, but those arguments always seem to lead to very abstract points no one can prove, depending on a person to always fill up the gaps with "god real, why don't you just give in" I mean all reasoning is motivated reasoning but religious arguments take them to another level.

It is all just coping, be it very elaborate coping that has a long and rich tradition.

I on the other hand just came to terms with the fact that nobody knows like anything about anything and the only important question is how can I and my tribe of people flourish in a very unfair, cruel, hostile world.

That's where I'm coming from and that's why it doesn't make sense for us to argue since I will always just gloss over christian talking points never accepting them.
I will always give a (functionally) 100% material, cynical take that will brand religion of any kind as a cope or mere concepts that someone had reasons to propagate and enforce in the past (of wich we will also never really know about).

Also thank you for your sperging about the faith, you are helping me to put in to words why I despise religion. I wish you well tbh

Fun fact:
I still help out a church or rather people within it btw, but only because there are no other places left to meet decent people. I know that they will abandon their silly believes anyway as soon as shit hits the fan so I just humor them to get along and get stuff done that is worthwhile.

 

[Str8Bustah]

@Newfag14 It seems very clear that we're not going to able to agree on this as you're not very interested in things that you can't ground in what human perception dictates is reality, and I care far more about stuff outside of what's tangible because, from my experience, I have never accomplished anything through my own willpower and the world has given me nothing but suffering whenever I've looked to it for a solution, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, bury the hatchet and hopefully save us both another couple of pages of autism. I wish you all the best.

If I catch you misrepresenting Church doctrine again oi'll still smak u in da gob roight kwik tho. Cheers!

 

[Invective Mass]

Please do not ever fuck with demons, daimons, djini or whatever fucking name is used. We are of a divine spark, and preserving that is your greatest imperitive. Preserving yourself involves leading a pure life or seeking a pure life and avoiding any worldly pleasures that could break or diminish that spark or soul. As a previous poster said, beings that have been separated from God desire souls, because that is what they lack. Treasure what you have.

 

[Male Idiot]

This all sounds like pilpul made up by merchants.

You don't want that money, goy. That gold you can give to me, it will only weight you down after you die, oy vey. I am already damned so I'll take it off your hands.

Those spices? I'll trade you 5 cabbages for that, you don't need that, it distracts you from talking to an empty room.
Oy veyyyyyy!

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

It's less about that and more trying to Lawyer The Supernatural. Israel's etymological origin (To "Wrestle" With God) literally comes out of trying to lawyer the supernatural.

Very much so, the symbolism of a trial and court involving God runs throughout the OT.

 

[Agent Abe Caprine]

Both results are a trap, one is just delayed and the other is instant. Don't talk to demons, it's not worf it.

Last demon I talked to punched me, then stole my last Life Stone. 0/10 Do not talk to demons. Talk to equally deranged angels instead.

 

[The Lawgiver]

If I encountered a demon Iwouldn't try to get some kinda "deal" to gain shit short term with em I'd be like "oh shit! A demon!" and if it's like actual evil demon type demon trying to torment me or deal with me to take my soul I'd probably get annoyed at the fucking thing and it'd turn into some ATHF broodwich ass shit in terms of absurdity.

Anyways the way I remember demons shitworking is they're "supposedly" more tied to contracts than people and basically function like evil genies minus actually fulfilling your wish half the time. Don't do deals with them unless it's like some tame shit that isn't soul level price. Like if the demon's like "dude could you make me something to eat please" that's on you, you wanna feed the demon? No? Maybe? Does it even need to eat? You decide, either way that things gonna bother you till you make it that meal probably. Retika's corner demon probably never got it's end of whatever bargain they had set up so he's just gotta deal with it being there now forever.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Liberals cheat in deals all the time, see the last election.

 

[AssignedEva]

Honestly I just don't want to ever witness anything with multiple limbs, eyes, claws, or any other kind of abomination ever pop up in or around my home.

If I encountered a demon Iwouldn't try to get some kinda "deal" to gain shit short term with em I'd be like "oh shit! A demon!" and if it's like actual evil demon type demon trying to torment me or deal with me to take my soul I'd probably get annoyed at the fucking thing and it'd turn into some ATHF broodwich ass shit in terms of absurdity.

If we're going off Christian understandings of demons, a deceptive demon wouldn't appear as anything scary. The "King of Tyre" (Satan) was "perfect in beauty" before the fall, and in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, talking about false Apostles, Paul says "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." This is more about human agents of the Devil, but the idea holds, and you see the same thing with the Antichrist who is foretold to perform wonders and miracles to make people think he's God (or sits in the house of God, or sits his throne above God or whatever.

Angels can appear as regular human beings and only reveal their "be not afraid" form to Prophets, so if you assume demons are fallen angels they'd also presumably have that ability. So in theory it'd be like in Lucifer

where most of the time Lucifer can appear in his handsome Tom Ellis form or a revolting demonic form. A demon who was hideous and frightening all the time would struggle to charm and sweet talk people into corrupting themselves.

 

[Michael Wade]

Are you fucking kidding me? Name me one guy who had a good deal. You can't, because your ALWAYS FUCKED. History doesn't remember the men and women who fell into the pit.

Its a trap. It's always been a trap. It's a slot machine that gives you the dopamine rush before they find the best way to not give you the money and destroy your life. Or they give you the money and you play around with it for a year before you discover it's radioactive and will give you cancer.


Nick tried playing with this shit. Yeah that didn't end well. The house is always stacked.
It doesn't have to be today or tomorrow but they will screw you elaborately.

Thats not to say your permanently screwed if you find Jesus in time. But don't try to fuck a demon. Don't try to be clever. Or play both sides like Constantine. You have to be sincere in your love of Jesus and God. And the scars are not going to just go away.

 

[Str8Bustah]

If we're going off Christian understandings of demons, a deceptive demon wouldn't appear as anything scary. The "King of Tyre" (Satan) was "perfect in beauty" before the fall, and in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, talking about false Apostles, Paul says "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." This is more about human agents of the Devil, but the idea holds, and you see the same thing with the Antichrist who is foretold to perform wonders and miracles to make people think he's God (or sits in the house of God, or sits his throne above God or whatever.

Angels can appear as regular human beings and only reveal their "be not afraid" form to Prophets, so if you assume demons are fallen angels they'd also presumably have that ability. So in theory it'd be like in Lucifer
View attachment 6109968View attachment 6109969
where most of the time Lucifer can appear in his handsome Tom Ellis form or a revolting demonic form. A demon who was hideous and frightening all the time would struggle to charm and sweet talk people into corrupting themselves.

In Orthodoxy one of the key things we bring up is not to trust any visions that you have, that goes for visions which seem like they're divine revelations as well.

The reason is that all demons were once angels, and they can very happily put on their suit and tie to look nice and presentable for the moment they want to trick you into doing something awful.

 

[Michael Wade]

No, they are very legalistic and will always uphold their side of whatever they are offering. It is worth more than anything else in existence to demons to get someone to give their will and soul to them freely. They're happy to give you what they promised because the reward for them is worth more than even their own existence.

Permanently separating a soul from God is their greatest victory.

Sorry to double post but here's the thing. They don't technically own your soul.

Jesus has ultimate authority to give it up. Now if you embrace the sin and jump into the devil's arms.... He can't do that much to help you and will give it up. But if you resist and take it back? The deal can be broken.


Just don't take this lightly.

If we're going off Christian understandings of demons, a deceptive demon wouldn't appear as anything scary. The "King of Tyre" (Satan) was "perfect in beauty" before the fall, and in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, talking about false Apostles, Paul says "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." This is more about human agents of the Devil, but the idea holds, and you see the same thing with the Antichrist who is foretold to perform wonders and miracles to make people think he's God (or sits in the house of God, or sits his throne above God or whatever.

Angels can appear as regular human beings and only reveal their "be not afraid" form to Prophets, so if you assume demons are fallen angels they'd also presumably have that ability. So in theory it'd be like in Lucifer
View attachment 6109968View attachment 6109969
where most of the time Lucifer can appear in his handsome Tom Ellis form or a revolting demonic form. A demon who was hideous and frightening all the time would struggle to charm and sweet talk people into corrupting themselves.

Yes demons want to look nice at first. They'll always be something off but they'll look good at a distance or maybe have a light about them.

The trick is to ask them to say Christ is lord. They can't do it and will get pissed if you persist. That is a very telling sign. They can pretend to like Christ and will try everything they can to foster an imitation image but they won't directly mention him as much as possible. It's all hollow like something out of Freemasonry.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Sorry to double post but here's the thing. They don't technically own your soul.

Jesus has ultimate authority to give it up. Now if you embrace the sin and jump into the devil's arms.... He can't do that much to help you and will give it up. But if you resist and take it back? The deal can be broken.

This is absolutely correct. Under no circumstances can you "sell" your soul to a demon or to the devil, it always belongs to God. What you can do however is allow yourself to be possessed or controlled by a demon or commit mortal sins that separate you from God permanently if unrepented.

This is also not something you can do accidentally or by just thinking it'd be a neat idea.

Demons can't read your thoughts, only God and perhaps saints and angels in heaven that he has given that power to can do that, but they can pick up clues from your behaviors and actions about what is happening. Also why they can't refer to forgiven sins, God has blotted them from existence. It requires some open, unequivocal consent in the face of the thing that wants to take possession.

In Orthodoxy one of the key things we bring up is not to trust any visions that you have, that goes for visions which seem like they're divine revelations as well.

The reason is that all demons were once angels, and they can very happily put on their suit and tie to look nice and presentable for the moment they want to trick you into doing something awful.

This is the exact same advice the Catholic Church gives people regarding visions. In general I would recommend people assume the source of an active haunting to be malevolent in nature and to rule the demonic out first. Weak demons that cause minor phenomena can be easily driven out by prayer and fasting.

They can take any form they think will be best suited for their goals - demons enjoy causing fear because it sustains them but they don't need to use it. They can pick a form that better suits the person's weaknesses and makes them more willing to give in. Ultimately, all that matters is they get the person to separate from God and give control over to themselves. Whatever works for that goal.

St. Anthony of the Desert is a Church Father all Christians can learn from.

 

[AssignedEva]

In Orthodoxy one of the key things we bring up is not to trust any visions that you have, that goes for visions which seem like they're divine revelations as well.
The reason is that all demons were once angels, and they can very happily put on their suit and tie to look nice and presentable for the moment they want to trick you into doing something awful.

It's the same sort of thing people say about Ouija boards. The thing communicating through the Ouija board may give a very convincing impression of being your sweet old grandma, but you can't know for certain that it is grandma or if it's some sort of evil spirit pretending to be grandma in order to influence you.

The trick is to ask them to say Christ is lord. They can't do it and will get pissed if you persist. That is a very telling sign. They can pretend to like Christ and will try everything they can to foster an imitation image but they won't directly mention him as much as possible. It's all hollow like something out of Freemasonry.

From a historicist perspective, this probably all goes back to early Christians being a splinter off of the Pharisees. Temple Judaism was about ritual worship of YHWH through various things like animal sacrifice, and the Sadducee Kohanim (Cohens) were hereditary aristocratic priests who had a nice little money spinner where Jews all had to travel to Jerusalem during festivals in order to make sacrifices at the Temple (kinda like Muslims with Mecca), but they needed to buy the (expensive) animals at the Temple, and the Temple only accepted shekels, so they had to go to (exorbitant) currency exchanges to change their Roman money into Jewish money. That's what Jesus clearing the Temple was all about. They were also Torah literalists and didn't believe in immortal souls or an afterlife or angels and demons, the deal was you'd worship YHWH on Earth and he wouldn't smite you.

The Pharisees are the precursors to Rabbinical Judaism and eventually wrote the Talmud, which is all about close readings of scripture to try and rules lawyer your way out of following it. Synagogue is a Greek word meaning meeting place while Beit Knesset (the Hebrew) means "house of assembly". Even the Yiddish word "shul" means school. Synagogues were something that emerged during the Second Temple period originally as places for Jewish communities outside of Jerusalem to gather and also to read and learn about the Torah. But they started preaching the "Oral Torah" which contradicted the Temple Priests and also came down to the minutiae of Jewish law. Rabbi/Rev means "master" (as in "master of the Torah" or "our master") and there's no suggestion that Jews were supposed to consider synagogues as being somewhere God dwells (like you would with Herod's Temple pre-curtain-tear or a church). They just started making stuff up, basically, and then getting more and more "well ackshually" about it - came up recently in that thread about the Talmud (which is the Oral Torah written down).

Another sect of Jews, the Essenes (John the Baptist's people, who were a bit like Jewish monks) complained a lot about the Pharisees in the Dead Sea Scrolls;

The commanders of Judah have acted like shifters of field boundaries. On them I will pour out my wrath like water. (The Jews are) defrauded, robbed of redress.
"Stop preaching" (the Pharisees) preach. "That’s no way to preach."
(The Pharisees) even rendered impure their holy spirit and in revelous terms opened their mouth against the laws of the covenant of God, saying, "They are not correct"
They planned evil against me to replace your Torah with smooth things (false laws) to your people
Those who lead (the Jews) astray, whose falseness is in their talmud (teachings), and whose lying tongue and dishonest lips lead many astray

and also a bunch of commentary about how they were fucking with the rules of ritual purity to try and undermine the Temple priests. The Essenes even refer to the Pharisees as "seekers of smooth things", "preachers of falsehoods" and "builders of the wall" (a wall of fake laws derived from tradition rather than divine teachings). Most of Jesus's run ins with the Pharisees involve them trying to use their rhetoric to trick him with words or them being so focused on "straining out a gnat" (the devout would strain water through a cloth to avoid swallowing insects, because Jews couldn't eat insects) that they'd "choke on a camel" - same deal with a "mote in your neighbour's eye" vs "beam in your own eye". They were so busy trying to find exemptions that they were profaning God's teachings.

You do also get this from Paul's letter to the Corinthians -

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. (...) And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Don't listen to smooth talkers who are skilled at rhetoric and try and twist the meaning of words to mean something else (or "we don't want Christianity to develop Rabbis and another Talmud"). So if they're agents of Satan designed to lead the faithful astray, there's no reason to assume that a demon in the Christian understanding wouldn't be able to misrepresent scripture through selectively quoting it - which is what Satan does during Jesus's temptations, quoting parts of Psalms. What rumbles him is he refuses to prostate himself before Jesus, which is mostly to do with Satan's ego problems (why he got cast out in the first place), but there's no reason to think Satan or demons wouldn't be able to tell a random Christian "oh yeah Christ is Lord, praise Jesus hallelujah!" in order to deceive them.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Angels can appear as regular human beings and only reveal their "be not afraid" form to Prophets, so if you assume demons are fallen angels they'd also presumably have that ability. So in theory it'd be like in Lucifer

This is exceptionally important to keep in mind. Any time someone has been sent from God, the first thing they say is to not be afraid. Demons will never say this, they feed on the fear and intimidation their power creates even if they are appearing in a beautiful form to tempt someone.

One way to discern is to ask the spirit to proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord*. A human spirit or angel God has permitted or sent to Earth for his own purposes will joyfully state this truth, but this will reveal the demons' nature instantly. Demons hate the person of Christ in the Trinity even more than the Father or Spirit and will never speak his name if at all possible, let alone proclaim him Lord.

*This is the only phrase fully capitalized in the Catholic breviary due to the sheer power and meaning of "Jesus Christ is Lord".

The trick is to ask them to say Christ is lord. They can't do it and will get pissed if you persist. That is a very telling sign. They can pretend to like Christ and will try everything they can to foster an imitation image but they won't directly mention him as much as possible. It's all hollow like something out of Freemasonry.

Literally just said the same thing almost verbatim without reading yours. Maybe God is working through us sinners here to provide other people wisdom against the enemy.

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD

 

[Sneedenhagen Chew]

I'm inclined to say no, because they speak Legalese in Hell (and not because lawyers go there, but because Satan invented it). The 400-page tome of contract says exactly what will happen to you and no one forced you to sign it.

Pic related, that giant tome is the shortest and least predatory contract ever written by a demon.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

If it was possible… Just walk away. It’s not worth the money.

 

[Agent Abe Caprine]

In Orthodoxy one of the key things we bring up is not to trust any visions that you have, that goes for visions which seem like they're divine revelations as well.

*Sad Mother Ann Lee noises*

Fun fact about the Shakers: They believed Mrs. Fivehead over here was God's feminine side. They interpreted the whole "man was made in God's image" thing as meaning God was a sexless, but had a male and female side.

Yes, this is a real drawing that was made when the Shakers were around. No, it wasn't intended as a joke. Yes, I used this as an excuse to post the holiest of fiveheads.

 

[Dyn]

If I was a demon I'd just hide my contract in a Terms & Services popup on discord.