Philosophy Tube / Oliver Lennard / Oliver "Olly" Thorn / Abigail Thorn - Breadtube's Patrick Bateman.

N.B. "She" in this context does not refer to Contra, but to some socialist organization pulling their endorsement of AOC.
https://archive.md/jlRWp
https://nitter.poast.org/PhilosophyTube/status/1812057383562023244#m
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“She” in this context does refer to Contra (see “all Democrats and DSA stuff aside”). It’s a direct punch — nothing new for Alice; he’s dragged Contra by name before — made different this time only by Olly’s choice to respond.

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When the 4chan schizotheory blew up earlier this year Olly didn’t post about it, just liked his friends’ defenses and kept up his “professional” voice in public. He thinks of himself as the bigger person, has spent years claiming he never gets into drama and practices the "Philosophy Tube jutsu" of waiting for his enemies to cancel themselves. Historically his jabs at Contra have been veiled — barely, but veiled. It's unusual for him to be this direct in public.

This tweet in reply to Alice is one of his cleverer ones, I think, because it gives him plausible deniability. People who like both him and Contra can read it straight ("after everything Abi is still defending Contra and calling her kind, oh how sweet, how generous"), while his friends and other Trans Twitter posters who scorn Contra's insufficient radicalism can see the sarcasm ("ha that catty neolib war criminal shill would be delusional enough to think of herself as kind"). Those close to him seem to understand it as a joke.

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(@noahpasaran is followed by all three KJB hosts and sometimes guests on Trashfuture and Well There's Your Problem, Alice's other pods.)

Anyway he's outfitposting again and completely misunderstanding the nature and mechanics of hotness, so the show goes on.

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Anyway he's outfitposting again and completely misunderstanding the nature and mechanics of hotness, so the show goes on.
I wanted to rate your post informative for contextualising the twitter nonsense, but then you posted that photo of Ollie somehow achieving a front-whale-tale and it was visceral, sorry.

Just to add that crop/bustier tops, low rise, flares and skirts over trousers are all in among zoomers, but all four at the same time absolutely aren't for very obvious reasons.
 
How on earth do you look fat while possibly starving yourself?

Make it make sense
Because he has a man body and no idea how to hide it.

Lets be generous and use beiber as an example, who is less fat and more toned than chube. In the first image I’ve recreated his outfit. The curving lines he has chosen on a rectangular body gives an illusion of having a gut/ belly. A female with a skinny waist that goes in at the sides and actual hips could pull the outfit off. He doesnt have a waist and is visually creating the opposite of the waist that a female would have. The next illustration shows how he could better
Hide his male body. This would be by creating the illusion of a hips and waist with fabric and using a wide neckline to try to balance out his shoulders. And never ever bare his midriff. I mean it still wouldn't look good. But he would look less skinny fat. Also if you are skinny fat having a tan helps a little. Pasty flub just reads worse.

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"Cis" puberty is when the body goes through an oftentimes challenging but completely natural process through which a child's body matures into an adult's body.

Trans "puberty", on the other hand, is when the aforementioned process is unnaturally halted through the use of puberty blockers (with a whole host of side effects) in order to stop the body from maturing. In other words, no puberty is taking place as the blockers don't cause a person's body to magically go through the opposite sex's puberty or gender special puberty (whatever that looks like).

What is this trans puberty that he is speaking of? Is it losing bone density and becoming sterile?
 
This was in response to the UK banning puberty blockers and is, true to form, completely insane. Trans puberties are abnormal
He's made a couple of tweets about it:
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I made a summary of it elsewhere
It's hard to pick on timings but one that's already bubbling over is puberty blockers. Wes Streeting the Health Secretary is going to convert the emergency temporary ban on puberty blockers into a permanent ban. TransActual and an anonymous applicant are currently in tribunal trying to challenge this and get a judicial review - basically, the Medicines Act 1968 allows the Health Secretary to "restrict the supply of medications". However, the Health Secretary must engage in a lengthy consultation process with organisations that have an interest (i.e. groups like TransActual and GenderGP). The exception to this is the "urgency requirement"; if the Health Secretary needs to act quickly and decisively in the face of new evidence representing a significant and imminent risk of harm to public health, like when herbal supplements containing Aristolochia got banned in 1999 because it turns out it causes kidney failure, they can act unilaterally.

The argument being mounted is that the Cass Report says there is a lack of evidence around the efficacy and safety of puberty blockers and they should be used in clinical trials, which they're saying doesn't meet the same standard of significant and imminent risk - it's not "puberty blockers fuck up kids for life with no benefit", it's "we don't have any evidence that the benefits to children are outweighed by the harms" - and there was no clear ministerial statement made laying out what the significant and imminent risk was. Also Wes Streeting has vocally criticised GenderGP and misrepresented private provision of medications as "loopholes", and the previous Health Secretary didn't do the temporary ban based on clinical advice, and they didn't consult about the potential health risks of cessation of treatment to children on puberty blockers or in gender clinics. It's therefore getting mooted that this represents a breach of Article 8 rights of transgender children (right to a private life, which sort of gets bundled up in Gillick Competency and the right of a child to consent to or withdraw consent for a medical treatment).

The Judgement is still pending, and it's hard to say what the outcome is likely to be. If upheld, it basically boils down to "the emergency ban wasn't done properly, you were supposed to spend a couple of years arguing with us first" and the ban would be sent to judicial review and could end up getting revoked. To be clear, I'm pretty sure the Health Secretary would still ultimately be able to ban puberty blockers if they were smart about how they approached the consultation process, but it would take a couple years of arguing and draw a lot of ire from the usual suspects who'd constantly be trying to prove the Secretary of State wasn't following the right process because he'd already made up his mind.
Basically TransActual are in tribunal pending judgement against the last health secretary (the Conservative one, Victoria Atkins) for passing a temporary emergency ban on puberty blockers. The current health secretary (Labour's Wes Streeting) is attempting to make this ban permanent. The argument that is unfolding is that although it is possible for a health secretary to unilaterally ban medication, there may have been procedural errors based on the level of evidence being provided which means the ban might not have been lawful in the way it was enacted, and also banning it infringes the human rights of children.
Trans puberties are abnormal
What the fuck even is a trans puberty, as usual he makes zero sense.
What is this trans puberty that he is speaking of? Is it losing bone density and becoming sterile?
Ollie's argument is incredibly mind numbing but boils down to this:

A woman is unhappy with her bust size. She decides to go to a plastic surgeon to get a breast augmentation, as she will feel happier with larger breasts.
If that woman is cisgender, the breast surgeon will do a simple medical consult and then give her a breast augmentation. However if that woman is transgender, then the feelings that are seen as normal and understandable in a cisgender woman are pathologised as "gender dysphoria", which is a way for doctors to take control over transgender people's lives and bodies. The transgender woman is required to jump through a series of hoops to "prove" that she has "gender dysphoria" in order to obtain the treatment a cisgender woman could just get. But the only difference between the cisgender and the transgender woman is the transgender woman's feelings get labelled as a medical condition while the cisgender woman's feelings are just accepted as her feelings. This is a very broad example and he doesn't use cosmetic surgery in his argument, rather HRT for menopausal women. I made his argument a bit better because the obvious flaw in his argument is a woman has to be diagnosed as menopausal to get HRT and is not just getting HRT because she fancies it (and at the same time it's available on the NHS/insurance).

So there's no such thing as gender dysphoria. It is purely a way for medical institutions to treat people differently to punish them for being trans. Sex and gender are the same thing and also don't exist but also Ollie has changed his biological sex (even though there is no such thing as biological sex). So really it's just the same as if a white woman could go to a sexual health clinic and get hormonal birth control, but a black woman would need to first get diagnosed with "black lady who doesn't want children right now syndrome" before she'll get hormonal birth control. This is the underlying logic of Ollie's argument, they're victimising a group of women for a characteristic that isn't relevant to the treatment they want.

Because this children are being denied access to a medical treatment they need, it is forcing them to undergo a puberty they do not want. The only reason they are being forced into this situation is because doctors are victimising them and controlling them for an unrelated characteristic. Again, it's like if white girls were allowed to grow up but black girls were forcefed testosterone unless they got diagnosed with "black girl who is actually a girl syndrome". It's treating the way white girls up as normal but the way black girls grow up as pathological and saying their bodily autonomy must be overridden because they're black. Letting black girls opt out of being forcefed testosterone will help them massively, but this option is being denied to them in order to protect some imaginary black girls who opted out of taking testosterone and then regretted it when they were older.

This is obviously a completely fucking stupid argument. But that's ultimately what you have to remember with Ollie's arguments; sex can be changed at will with full success rates and no complications, and therefore sex is irrelevant to treatment and is ultimately a dumb concept. So if you're a doctor and a girl goes "my puberty is developing the wrong way and I'm starting to develop masculine traits", your job is to provide a medical intervention to that girl so she grows into a female, and whether that girl is a female child or a male child who wishes to become a female child does not matter (beyond potentially just working out what doses and bloodwork she needs). A girl who was suddenly masculinising would not be asked to prove that she actually did want to grow up as a woman and wouldn't be happier as a man, and therefore a boy who is going through puberty should not be asked to prove that he actually does want to grow up as a woman and wouldn't be happier was a man.

It took a while for me to realise this is actually what he was arguing, because it's so nonsensical.
 
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This was in response to the UK banning puberty blockers and is, true to form, completely insane. Trans puberties are abnormal
Hahahaaa that SHAME ON YOU is such toff talk. "I know what'll really scare you! If I, your social better, verbally disapprove of your actions! Transphobes BTFO!"

@AssignedEva Another issure with Ollie's argument is that what he calls "gender-affirming surgeries" are cosmetic surgeries that normal women have to pay for themselves, but that troons want taxpayers to pay for.
 
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I love how he’s so bad at explaining his own stupid arguments that people who actively dislike and disagree with him have to do it for him.
He does sort of explain it, he just doesn't want it spelled out this much (and admittedly I've engaged in reductio ad absurdum). If I wanted to be pretentious I'd say I was doing a Straussian exegesis. He has an exoteric message designed for the hoi polloi, and an esoteric message for the hoi olligoi, his in-group, that is deliberately obscured. Kind of like a Motte and Bailey argument.

If you drink the kool-aid and are well meaning and do what you think is the "kind" thing, like I used to be like and still pretend to be outwardly, he's presenting one form of argument. He's a man who wants to be a woman, but that's not a nice way of saying it, so we say he's a woman trapped in the wrong body. But that's an unkind way of saying it, so we say he's a woman in a woman's body (because the body belongs to a woman), it's just that body has the wrong chromosomes so she just needs medical help to make her body match what it's supposed to be. But he's biologically male, except talking about biological sexual categories isn't nice to intersex people (it's not nice to call as CAIS woman a male because she's XY but immune to testosterone) and also you don't always know someone's intersex status.

So the nice and kind thing to do is say that Abigail is a woman who had a hormone imbalance that needed treatment, and also because that hormone imbalance wasn't caught earlier, she might need some additional surgeries to help her recover from this endocrine disruption and make her body match what she feels it's supposed to be. Trying to say her feelings around this are pathological (gender dysphoria) and she needs to be diagnosed with it before she can get that treatment (specifically in a separate system with long waiting times) is treating her differently purely for being trans.

You then get into the argument around consent. Imagine a 22 year old goes to the doctor and says she definitely never wants kids and wants a hysterectomy because she has very bad endometriosis that has not responded to treatment. And the doctor says: I knew a woman who did that at your age, and when she met a man a few years later, she fell in love with him and wanted to have his babies. But she couldn't have them, and he wouldn't consider marrying anyone who couldn't give him biological children, so she killed herself. So I'm not going to let you get sterilised, in case you one day meet a man and you kill yourself because you can't bear his children. Well that's terrible! He's denying her bodily autonomy based on a hypothetical. And in British medicine we have the concept of Gillick Competence and how a child can decide if they're sufficiently mature that they want or don't want certain treatments (which is why teenage girls can get the pill without their parents knowing, or get a covid vaccine if their parents were anti-vax).

Therefore, if a child decides they want to go on puberty blockers and they're judged to be Gillick competent, their parents or the state should not intervene to stop them, because it's forcing them to go through hormonal changes they don't want. And it's victimising them just for being transgender, when a cisgender child who was experiencing a similar endocrine disruption would be helped. The distress they feel at this can lead to them killing themselves - this isn't gender dysphoria, it's just like a child getting some freakish pituary tumour causing endocrine disruption getting told they can't have it treated till they're 18 and to "just live with it". Evil doctors who hate trans people use the concept of "gender dysphoria" to pathologise the distress transgender children feel about their endocrine imbalance in a way that they wouldn't do to those cisgender children with pituitary tumours.

The exoteric message is "trans kids need help and you're saying no! To object to this is transphobic and means you want trans kids to die!". The esoteric message is what I've just laid out. Ollie doesn't want normal people to understand his argument properly, he wants them to trust him as an expert and deliberately muddies what he's saying to prevent you thinking it through.

Because if you think through what he's saying, there will come a point where you say "wait, hold on, that's not the same thing". But you can't say that to any of his arguments without being unkind, and so therefore he'll shut you down as a transphobe, and people won't hear what ludicrous logical jump you're criticising and just hear you want to hurt trans kids, and his line of argument is too muddied for them to realise for themselves because again, it's the esoteric hidden argument that's deliberately obscured from them.
 
Once again I find myself feeling a bit sorry for Ollie, although I'm sure those feelings will evaporate in time for his next video.
Honestly, I think that Olly might have a shockingly high ceiling, as much as I'd hate to admit it. He's certainly done well for himself as a diversity hire, and the fact that he's now on major TV shows basically means he has his foot in the door. In general Hollywood can be absurdly tolerant of the worst kinds of people, especially massive narcs, and if he can still throw money at agents and exploit the troon grift, then he'll probably get lots of work, no matter how much we chagrin.
My own standup act got increasingly challenging, deliberately esoteric, Brechtian, political (in a superficial way) and confrontational until I was basically just trying to make the other comics laugh and the audience feel like they had to laugh too or they'd be left out. I took a lot of cues from Stewart Lee, in the sense that I used to inhabit a right-wing perspective that wasn't mine and take it to extremes in order to parody it. Some of it survives, you can still see it! In that video you can hear the other comics off camera left laughing the loudest and fastest after a punchline, and the audience lagging behind, not sure of themselves, which is exactly how I used to like it.
Oh also, fuck me, every single time I see him talk its always something new that makes me marvel at how unbelievably obnoxious and full of horseshit he really is. Like this is basically the absolute worst kind of naval gazing bullshit from any comedian, and Olly is doing it in his capacity as a fucking amateur who went nowhere. Like seriously, anybody who self describes their own comedic work as "challenging" can be safely dismissed as an insufferable cunt regardless of context, especially in this case where he's trying to present himself as basically a comedian's comedian, too fiendishly clever for the audience to properly get but which all of the other comedians, who really know comedy, appreciate the full genius of his mastery of the craft. If Olly spent a weekend putting together a bed from IKEA you can bet your ass he'd be bragging about how he knows what its like to be a master carpenter now.

I'll give him this though, he is kind of funny with this, in a David Brent kind of way.
 
I can believe that Olly was focusing on just making his comedian buddies laugh because they were only ones he was seeking approval from. They had "discerning" taste in comedy, the crowd doesn't. It doesn't matter if he could bring the house down, to them Dane Cook is proof that any idiot could do it. So can Dave Chsppelle. And Joe Rogan. Along with plenty of other of comics who make millions while lesser comics seethe, to them, audiences are stupid and fall for silly voices and lowbrow shit and clap when they "punch down" with jokes about junkies.

No, he'd rather prove to his peers (comedy nerds) that he's above it, by doing a biting subversion of the problematic millionaires that they hate. This allows Olly to claim he's above pandering to the crowd.....in order to pander to another crowd.

It's been a lifelong thing, his identity shifts to match whatever audience he's trying to impress. First his family, then the bullies at school, then his proffesor and classmates, his fellow comedy nerds, then youtube. Youtube was his most successful venture because it's the easiest possible medium to hide your identity and fool people. Audiences there are NOT going to debunk or fact-check your work, at least not in philosophy where there's no stakes. The site is now designed to discourage it.

The channel is specifically pitched to people who would never pick up a book, it just needs to smell academic enough with a bibliography. You can, in fact, just brute force your way into success there with sleek and well-edited bullshit

Over time, it became clear his audience was heavily left-leaning, feeling like the system is rigged because they are either struggling with employment or handed life on a silver platter. And disproportionately LGBT. Olly catered to them, told them they were valid, the only barrier was his identity. In past videos he repeatedly apologized for being a cis white male. The audience wasn't entirely comfortable with being lectured by someone like him. Being "queer" hekped but wasn't good enough. In q & a sessions they prodded.

"Have you ever experienced dysphoria?"

"Have you ever questioned your identity? Do you think you think you might be trans?"

"
Hah yeah....sorry, I'm not trans"

"Awwww, but you said you were depressed. It would do wonders, we're cheering for you"

His vid on male abuse makes it clear he doesn't think his feelings are as valid, due to being male. He knows and feels that society with brush off his problems, so he had to dedicate an hour to getting the audience to sympathize with the abuse of....having an unreceptive girlfriend. Even though they aready sympathize with him.

But no matter how much he validated their identities, no matter how much sympathy he expressed, he couldn't really know what it's like to be trans. To them, it's not his life at stake when politicians scrutinize HRT. Olly accurately predicted transitioning would go over super-well with his audience, and anything he says about it being a gamble is a bunch of horseshit.

No, a real gamble would be making a 10-minute video, or arguing a point his audience didn't already agree with, or daring to act centrist. That would burn his patreon income, which I 100% garuantee he will abandon if his acting career starts pulling in six figures.

EDIT: I noticed a bunch of typos but in my defense I wrote that after downing a bottle of wine, on my phone, with autocorrect disabled so no one is logging my keystrokes. See kids, thats sort of like the thing breadtubers do- by signaling their flaws, setbacks, and inebriations they can make themselves seem smarter than they are. Sort of like how an athelete might boost themselves after winning a game by claiming they had the flu or a bad ankle. Plus, it feigns authenticity!
 
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No, a real gamble would be making a 10-minute video, or arguing a point his audience didn't already agree with, or daring to act centrist. That would burn his patreon income, which I 100% garuantee he will abandon if his acting career starts pulling in six figures.
I tend to unfavourably compare Olly to Contrapoints, and I know that Contra does too lol, but this is something I can have a little respect for Contra with, he does disagree with the kinds of orthodoxies his audience would go along with in various cases and accordingly can come across as an actual human being with blood in his veins compared to the plastic facsimile that is Choob in contrast, who's always sure never to say anything actually controversial to the kinds of people he curries favour with.
 
I think is ought to be more embarrassing how he can't even just act normal. In the first still he gives me overacting with a tinge of 'gotta look pretty while acting'. In the second he has this blank expression whereas everyone around him reflects in their expressions they are actually listening, also hands are held claw-like compared to the more relaxed demeanor of the lady right next to him.
I've not watched The Acolyte and I don't plan on changing that, so for all I know this are stills right after he delivers his lines but its more likely the same shit as with his slumping, he wants to stand out and either no one cares or wants to tell him to stop. This has to be deliberate, they want him to stand out because even in the mass death scene it seems his robes are of the different colour than the other characters.
I posted that Curb clip about "Acting Without Acting" earlier but it's really just Jason being pretentious about something very true and you can especially see it in older movies because so many people were first transitioning (heh) from stage. The same acting doesn't work on stage versus a camera. You have to "underact" even while overacting when it's for a camera. On stage the audience can potentially look anywhere, but for film the audience looks where the director wants them to especially in modern directing/editing. Olly has no clue, not that I'm saying his stage acting is any good, just that they're distinct. In many ways, Olly isn't acting for the audience of the show who is personified in the camera or at least the director, he's acting for his peers in the industry. Except, as a narcissist, he has no clue what they might want so he assumes they just need to notice him.

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This was in response to the UK banning puberty blockers and is, true to form, completely insane. Trans puberties are abnormal
But "cis" puberties are normal. You don't do anything and they happen. Even if you do something they'll still happen. You're just trying to suppress them in hopes that will mean they "reverse" or something, it's not real clear what exactly you think you're doing but it is clear you have no interest in understanding what "is" versus what you think "ought" to be. And that you're doing this to others for your own validation that it could have worked for you even though it couldn't have. You're trying to live through other people's children.
 
It's been a lifelong thing, his identity shifts to match whatever audience he's trying to impress. First his family, then the bullies at school, then his proffesor and classmates, his fellow comedy nerds, then youtube. Youtube was his most successful venture because it's the easiest possible medium to hide your identity and fool people. Audiences there are NOT going to debunk or fact-check your work, at least not in philosophy where there's no stakes. The site is now designed to discourage it.

The channel is specifically pitched to people who would never pick up a book, it just needs to smell academic enough with a bibliography. You can, in fact, just brute force your way into success there with sleek and well-edited bullshit

Over time, it became clear his audience was heavily left-leaning, feeling like the system is rigged because they are either struggling with employment or handed life on a silver platter. And disproportionately LGBT. Olly catered to them, told them they were valid, the only barrier was his identity. In past videos he repeatedly apologized for being a cis white male. The audience wasn't entirely comfortable with being lectured by someone like him. Being "queer" hekped but wasn't good enough.

I think you've gotten at something when it comes to Olly's psychology. Olly is clearly a person who expects to be looked at as an expert. His central political idea as espoused in recent videos (that people should "listen" more to marginalized people, like himself) seems like an externalization of this entitlement complex: if he doesn't receive infinite praise and attention for courageously speaking out, then he's somehow being victimized.

In Olly's set, there's a prevailing notion that "lived experience" should grant someone a magic talking stick that allows them to speak over other people. Of course, our experiences do give us a tangible insight in a way that mere theorizing cannot. But when Olly appeals to his lived experience, it comes off as an exaggeration designed to increase his perceived authority. This dates back a long time: in "Work (or the five jobs I had before YouTube)," for example, he specifically framed his arguments within the context of a more vloggy video describing his personal experiences. Few of the experiences were particularly relevant to his ideas—instead he projected his current ideas onto his former experiences in a way that came off as artificial. Yet it seems his fans reacted positively to this aspect of the video:

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It's gotten a lot more egregious since the dawn of the Abigail Era. Some of his newer arguments are stitched together internally only via the tenuous thread of Olly's personal victimization experiences. For instance, what does a man stealing Olly's script he wrote without giving credit, have anything to do with the colonial persecution of Obeah women as witches (as in his video "A Man Plagiarized My Work")? The conceptual leap seems ludicrous to us. But since Olly opened this video with his "experience of misogyny," a Philosophy Tube fan is less likely to catch it. Trans women are women after all. And as an added bonus, an unearned frisson of authority is conferred on everything Olly has to say related to misogyny.

I like seeing people seriously trying to untangle and engage with Olly's views. There are people in this very thread with political beliefs that they've clearly put a lot of thought into, and which arise out of a passionate sense of right and wrong. Not only does Olly spread a lot of misinformation about high-stakes issues, he doesn't even seem passionate about many of the ideas he espouses. In the end the act of speaking, and the image of the speaker, is supreme over anything that's actually being said. It's good to see people reclaiming genuine ideas from this husk of a philosopher.

Honestly, I think that Olly might have a shockingly high ceiling, as much as I'd hate to admit it. He's certainly done well for himself as a diversity hire, and the fact that he's now on major TV shows basically means he has his foot in the door. In general Hollywood can be absurdly tolerant of the worst kinds of people, especially massive narcs, and if he can still throw money at agents and exploit the troon grift, then he'll probably get lots of work, no matter how much we chagrin.

This is wise. It's unlikely Olly will ever get a major role—peeks behind the curtain via his Tumblr and Twitter indicate his instantly obsequious or oppositional attitude towards people he meets in his industry. But this type of person just goes on and on. Olly is like a liquid, always flowing into another available niche.
 
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