Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[Rendang]

How do you square Christian faith and ethno-racist politics?

Hebrews 13 asks us to treat strangers with hospitality by giving food and shelter, but we should not allow them to infect us with bad practices (Verse 9: "Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.").

Hospitality does not mean that I give my house and cat to them, rather that they should see that our uprightness reflects God, and that they'll wish to follow Him and His teachings.

As Paul adopted practices for others, became weak to the weak, they would likewise have to naturalize. If they do, then they're a brother to us, and can stay with us. However, if they refuse to adopt our practices and spread vile teachings, then we have the right to kick them out of the Church, and likewise we should do the same for these illegals.

 

[Kung Pow]

Here's something I struggle with.

How do you square Christian faith and ethno-racist politics?

For example. I don't want mass migration of third world niggers, but does that track with what Christ preached? Did Christ not die on the cross for all of humanity?

Are they good for the common good? (i.e security, economy, food, shelter, water, expression)
If they are fucking over one of those essentials infrastructures of a healthy society, they should be treated with contempt since that goes against the teachings of Christ, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

 

[Str8Bustah]

But if they show up uninvited, asking for help, are we to turn them away?

Firstly, only offer what help you personally can, not what help you cannot. If all they want is your money and not your time, then they do not want your help. 'Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime'. If anyone chastizes you for your percieved lack of ability to help, then accept the scourging as Christ did, and you will be rewarded greatly, so the Fathers teach.

Bless them who curse you and pray the Lord keeps them from all evil, for if anyone really needs prayer, it's the one who curses the righteous while not lifting a finger to do anything in turn of their own effort. A demon truly has such a person by the balls.

 

[Derrick]

How do you square Christian faith and ethno-racist politics?

You can't and I wouldn't because I am not a racist. Christ came for everybody as Jesus told us, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"- Matthew 28:19.

I live in America, which has historically been a melting pot, and if they wanted to import 20,000,000 million Christians and we had enough room to feed, house, and employee them (I don't want to bring people in to make them homeless) than I say good, by all means bring them. I don't care if they're white, black, Asian, or whatever, if they share my Christian values than bring them in (and we properly vet them to make sure they're not criminals). This country could use some more Christians.

 

[Smashed & Slamed]

How do you square Christian faith and ethno-racist politics?

The Bible is full of references to distinct ethnicities. And it also has a great important tale of man trying to best God in the Tower of Babel. There is nothing wrong from a Christian perspective in having a nation. After all it's just an extension of the tribe which is an extension of the family.
But people pushing for no nations, no tribes, no families are clearly in a fight with God and against Christian beliefs.

 

[Preacher ✝]

Are they good for the common good? (i.e security, economy, food, shelter, water, expression)
If they are fucking over one of those essentials infrastructures of a healthy society, they should be treated with contempt since that goes against the teachings of Christ, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Firstly, only offer what help you personally can, not what help you cannot. If all they want is your money and not your time, then they do not want your help. 'Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime'. If anyone chastizes you for your percieved lack of ability to help, then accept the scourging as Christ did, and you will be rewarded greatly, so the Fathers teach.

Bless them who curse you and pray the Lord keeps them from all evil, for if anyone really needs prayer, it's the one who curses the righteous while not lifting a finger to do anything in turn of their own effort. A demon truly has such a person by the balls.

Both good points and very applicable in a practical sense.


But what about in a purely theological sense? For the sake of argument lets picture a perfect Christian society where everyone is (INSERT YOUR DENOMINATION HERE), and everyone has more than they need to the point of abundance. What if anything would that change? Practicality aside, what are the theological limitation of helping others? Should conversion be a requirement or is that akin to forcing people to come to the Lord?

 

[Smashed & Slamed]

But what about in a purely theological sense? For the sake of argument lets picture a perfect Christian society where everyone is (INSERT YOUR DENOMINATION HERE), and everyone has more than they need to the point of abundance. What if anything would that change? Practicality aside, what are the theological limitation of helping others? Should conversion be a requirement or is that akin to forcing people to come to the Lord?

Helping them doesn't mean letting them in your country.
There has been a conflation of things. But if they have a country, and you have a country. Why do they need to come here in order to receive help?
You can go there to help or you can send help.
The next point someone might make is hospitality. Yes you have a duty to be a good host. They also have a duty to be a good guest. If they are taking advantage of you then they are not being a good guest.
And the thing about guests. Is that guests eventually go home.
Immigration is not helping someone and it's not about hospitality. It's about bringing someone into your family.

 

[The Crescent King]

Here's something I struggle with.

How do you square Christian faith and ethno-racist politics?

For example. I don't want mass migration of third world niggers, but does that track with what Christ preached? Did Christ not die on the cross for all of humanity?

You're having issues because you can't square the two - one ideology will have to win out over the other. Being Christian doesn't mean you have to believe in open borders, but Christianity is incompatible with notions of racial heirarchy, racial prejudice or foregoing necessary compassion to those who have migrated. I'm sure there's someone in your family history who has migrated, so maybe try to think of them when condemning all refugees. Remember, none of the biggest critics of immigration are Christian and instead are bankrolled by Jews, which should give you some food for thought.
If you're truly angry about mass migration, I think the best direction of your frustration is at the American military industrial complex, the foreign policies they've bankrolled and the media propaganda surrounding it. People don't flee from functional societies. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union Eastern Europeans migrated into Western Europe in massive numbers, and in modern times American meddling into the Middle East and Latin America is the driving factor behind the mass immigration from these countries.

Apologies for double posting but I thought my question was more suitable to a seperate post.
Throughout my studies of Christian ethics I've come across the notion of certain behaviours being "intrinsically disordered", mainly in Catholic and Orthodox thought. I'm very interested in resources that explore the theological foundations of this idea in greater depth (besides the Church Fathers). Anyone have any recommendations?

 

[Rome's rightful successor]

 

[Mr Bunny]

How old is the earth? Just read the timeline given to you.

Spoiler: How precisely can we know the earth’s age?

The Bible’s history gives us the answer to the age of the earth. Given that the chronogenealogies—genealogies where the age of the father at the time of the son’s birth is given in an unbroken chain—end shortly after Noah, how do we get from ~1600 AM (anno mundi = ‘year of the world’) to today, which we would argue is about 6000 AM?

The precision by which we can know the timing of historical events or ages of things is constrained by the precision of the data we’re given. The timing we’re given in the chronogenealogies is accurate to within one year of the event. By this, I mean we can know that Adam was 130 years old when he fathered Seth, but we don’t know if he was 130 and 3 months, or just shy of 131, for example. This is true for all the ages. So when you add up the chronogenealogies, we know that the Flood happened in 1656, plus up to less than 10 years, because we have 10 numbers that have less than a year of uncertainty. If all of the numbers were recorded just shy of the next birthday (for instance, Adam was 130 and 11 months when he fathered Seth, Seth was 105 and 11 months when he fathered Enosh, and so on), the Flood could have been as late as 1665 AM. But clearly this sort of small-scale uncertainty won’t give any comfort to people who want to add thousands of years to human history.

Spoiler: The Flood to the Patriarchs

There is an unbroken chronogenealogy from Shem to Abraham in Genesis 11, and we’re given the information elsewhere in Genesis1 to extend the chronology until the relocation of Israel to Egypt when Jacob was 130 years old. Going by these numbers, Jacob went to Egypt in 642 + less than 12 years after the Flood, or 2298 + less than 22 years AM. The chronogenealogy ends here, with nearly 2,000 years to go until Christ. How do we extend the timeline?

Spoiler: The Patriarchs to the Exodus

Exodus 12:40 says that Israel was in Egypt for 430 years. This harmonizes well with Genesis 15:13 where God tells Abram that his descendants will be enslaved and mistreated for 400 years (enslavement did not happen on their arrival in Egypt but some time after Joseph died, when their number became threatening). So the Exodus happened in 2728 + less than 23 years AM.

Spoiler: The Exodus to the Kings

We know that Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years, meaning that they entered the Promised Land in 2768 + less than 24 years AM. But here the chronology becomes a bit hazier for a while. This is because we don’t know exactly how long the conquest took, or exactly how long it was before the judges started ruling Israel. We’re told how long each judge ruled, and how long each period of peace lasted, but some of these clearly overlap, and some judges clearly only ruled part of Israel while another judge was ruling another part.

But we have a clear statement in 1 Kings that allows us to continue a reliable chronology. 1 Kings 6:1 says “In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites had come out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the Lord.”

So if we subtract 124 years (40 each for the wandering in the desert, Saul’s reign, and David’s reign, and 4 for the partial reign of Solomon), we get a period of about 356 years for the judges, which fits well with the numbers in Judges if we assume a few overlaps. So Solomon began to build the Temple in 3208 + less than 23 years AM. Notice that even though we’re thousands of years into history at this point, the uncertainty about the dates is less than 25 years!

Spoiler: The Kings to the Exile

If we go by the reigns of the kings of Judah, without assuming any co-regencies, from the Temple to the Exile of Judah would have been 429.5 years + less than 21 years. But we know that there were co-regencies in Judah, partly by comparing the kings of Judah to the kings of Israel.3 If we do that, we know that from the Temple to the Exile of Judah is actually around 345 years, at around 3553 AM. At this point, it’s possible to say what the date would be in our terms—and when one adjusts for the differences in calendrical systems, the vast majority consensus is 586 BC. This would mean that 1 AD would be around 4150 AM, plus or minus less than 50 years, and today we would be around 6150 AM, plus or minus less than 50 years.

Spoiler: The Bible is history!

It’s clear that, from the very first verse of Genesis, the Bible is concerned with giving a factual account of how God has interacted with the earth. This means that it must give historically accurate details, as well as being theologically accurate. In fact, what we believe about God is based on historical claims, so if the history is inaccurate, then the theology must be as well! One of the ways the biblical authors communicated that they were giving actual history is by recording lifespans, or measuring the amount of time between certain events. 1 Kings 6:1

We can be confident that God’s Word is accurate in its historical details as well as in what it tells us about theology.

Spoiler: Table

Father/Event 1

Son/Event 2

Age/Length of time

Running total

Reference

Adam	Seth	130	130	Genesis 5
Seth	Enosh	105	235
Enosh	Kenan	90	325	Genesis 5
Kenan	Mahalel	70	395	Genesis 5
Mahalel	Jared	65	460	Genesis 5
Jared	Enoch	162	622	Genesis 5
Enoch	Methuselah	65	687	Genesis 5
Methuselah	Lamech	187	874	Genesis 5
Lamech	Noah	182	1,056	Genesis 5
Noah	Flood	600	1,656	Genesis 7:11

Flood	Arpaxad	2	1,658	Genesis 11
Arphaxad	Shelah	35	1,693	Genesis 11
Shelah	Eber	30	1,723	Genesis 11
Eber	Peleg	34	1,757	Genesis 11
Peleg	Reu	30	1,787	Genesis 11
Reu	Serug	32	1,819	Genesis 11
Serug	Nahor	30	1,849	Genesis 11
Nahor	Terah	29	1,878	Genesis 11
Terah	Abraham	130	2,008	Genesis 11
Abraham	Isaac	100	2,108	Genesis 21:5

Isaac	Jacob	60	2,168	Genesis 25:26
Jacob	Egypt	130	2,298	Genesis 47:9
Jacob in Egypt	Exodus	430	2,728	Exodus 12:40
Exodus	Temple Begun	480	3,208	1 Kings 6:1
Temple	Exile	345	3,553

I am terrible at making tables

 

[Preacher ✝]

Apologies for double posting but I thought my question was more suitable to a seperate post.
Throughout my studies of Christian ethics I've come across the notion of certain behaviours being "intrinsically disordered", mainly in Catholic and Orthodox thought. I'm very interested in resources that explore the theological foundations of this idea in greater depth (besides the Church Fathers). Anyone have any recommendations?

The chief example of this is homosexuality, or more mechanically, sodomy.

The intrinsic order of the sexual act is first and foremost procreation. This should be self evident in the ways our reproductive organs function.

Because sodomy cannot result in procreation, it is an intrinsically disordered act.

I'm not sure what greater depth you need, could you be more specific?

 

[Snack Cracker]

Iron sharpens iron, and KF is almost certainly not a place that honors Christ, but I can’t shake it.
There’s a lot of things on here that are diametrically opposed to living by the Bible, they’re sins to partake in.
Iron sharpens iron in my actual life, but this is a place to vent because still only human.

The only thing I can think of is we’re all still sinners, and I’m not using this site to say things that are against Him.
Maybe hateful and bigoted sometimes which are sins, but I’m flawed.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Str8Bustah]

Iron sharpens iron, and KF is almost certainly not a place that honors Christ, but I can’t shake it.
There’s a lot of things on here that are diametrically opposed to living by the Bible, they’re sins to partake in.
Iron sharpens iron in my actual life, but this is a place to vent because still only human.

The only thing I can think of is we’re all still sinners, and I’m not using this site to say things that are against Him.
Maybe hateful and bigoted sometimes which are sins, but I’m flawed.

What does everyone else think?

You do not have to use this site to mock your brother or your sister, you can also use this site as an indicator of if someone needs prayer, or along the same lines if they need the intercessions of the saints and the most Holy Theotokos. Countless saints all make a very good point about offering heartfelt prayers for those who are having a rough time even if it's entirely the fault of the person in question.

I'm not in a position to say anything with authority about light-hearted jokes, but I don't personally see anything wrong with them if you're either making yourself the punchline or making a funny observation which isn't actually targeted directly at another person. There's plenty of posts like that on this website.

 

[Snack Cracker]

You do not have to use this site to mock your brother or your sister, you can also use this site as an indicator of if someone needs prayer, or along the same lines if they need the intercessions of the saints and the most Holy Theotokos. Countless saints all make a very good point about offering heartfelt prayers for those who are having a rough time even if it's entirely the fault of the person in question.

I'm not in a position to say anything with authority about light-hearted jokes, but I don't personally see anything wrong with them if you're either making yourself the punchline or making a funny observation which isn't actually targeted directly at another person. There's plenty of posts like that on this website.

I hate trannies and other kinds of deviants and admittedly select nationalities though, and hating isn’t good or Christian.
Like really, really hate trannies.
I don’t want them to die but I laugh when they experience misfortunes.

As a woman in the church we’re not talking about moral decay most of the time, we’re talking about harvest parties and chapel and youth group events and extracurriculars.
There’s no way to vent it and I’m no longer classed as a TERF because I’m no longer a feminist, that wouldn’t work either.

 

[Str8Bustah]

I hate trannies and other kinds of deviants and admittedly select nationalities though, and hating isn’t good or Christian.
Like really, really hate trannies.
I don’t want them to die but I laugh when they experience misfortunes.

As a woman in the church we’re not talking about moral decay most of the time, we’re talking about harvest parties and chapel and youth group events and extracurriculars.
There’s no way to vent it and I’m no longer classed as a TERF because I’m no longer a feminist, that wouldn’t work either.

Christ teaches us to love our enemies. It's not easy at all, but it's the narrow path that leads through the straight gate. Hate the demon that has possessed them and not the person who's skin is being worn by a monster.

 

[Snack Cracker]

Christ teaches us to love our enemies. It's not easy at all, but it's the narrow path that leads through the straight gate. Hate the demon that has possessed them and not the person who's skin is being worn by a monster.

I’m honestly having a really hard time not hating or being angry at the people who completely cut me out when I came back to the church.

Some of them I had lived with and were best friends with, some of them were mentors, some of them were friends I had for almost 20 years.

I need to forgive them and I do pray about it every time that comes into my head, but He’s still working on me.

 

[Derrick]

You do not have to use this site to mock your brother or your sister

That's a good point, while I know I'll probably encounter some slack for this personally as a Christian I don't think we should be spreading Gossip, so I don't post in any of the 'lolcow threads'. I still like to use this site as it is a great place to talk about various topics on the off topic boards without any fear of censorship. Theres not too many truly free speech locations on the internet.

 

[Hweeks]

I have a couple comments -

Preacher I really appreciate your viewpoints which have given me a lot to think about. My faith is similar to Derrick in that my church is non-denominational, but considers the Bible the sole source of truth.

Regarding racism and the faith - as others pointed out you cannot be racist and a follower of Jesus. When I accepted Jesus one of the first things I noticed is how casually racist people around me act. I try to not judge others at all or when I do its by their actions and words.

Mr Bunny - my primary struggle with faith is creation and how it fits in with science. The information you posted was very interesting and helpful!

 

[Str8Bustah]

I’m honestly having a really hard time not hating or being angry at the people who completely cut me out when I came back to the church.

Some of them I had lived with and were best friends with, some of them were mentors, some of them were friends I had for almost 20 years.

I need to forgive them and I do pray about it every time that comes into my head, but He’s still working on me.

If it's any consolation, my besetting sin is still gripping my neck and has been for like 14 years. I'm lucky I found the Church when I did, I really don't know how bad I'd be without it, but it's always really humbling to see just how little I actually care about the Lord when it really comes down to it.

It really is hard to find someone as wretched as I am, at least people outside of the Church have that excuse. I have literally no excuse at all, and yet I still continue to trip over myself and the Old Man within me keeps rejecting the Cross that the New Man keeps trying to welcome in so that my soul can actually be saved and the process of Theosis can begin in full.

 

[Smashed & Slamed]

It might be best to try to still love the individuals who live in evil societies or belong to evil groups but I am not sure if it is such a sin to see these groups for what they are.

At what point are they not the same as Lot's wife, turned to salt for lacking conviction to begin salvation?
And are they not the rotten fruit of the rotten tree?
You should pray for them, as one should pray for all souls to reach salvation. But I think your efforts are better spent on those who wish to be saved rather than hoping they will change.

It really is hard to find someone as wretched as I am, at least people outside of the Church have that excuse. I have literally no excuse at all, and yet I still continue to trip over myself and the Old Man within me keeps rejecting the Cross that the New Man keeps trying to welcome in so that my soul can actually be saved and the process of Theosis can begin in full.

If God can forgive you, you can forgive yourself too. I was in a similar spot to you and you just need to learn to love yourself as God loves you. The little negative voice that says you are not worthy is not there to make you righteous, it's there to set you up for failure. Tune that voice out.