Philosophy Tube / Oliver Lennard / Oliver "Olly" Thorn / Abigail Thorn - Breadtube's Patrick Bateman.

[kazuhiro]

Abi's essay has been creating waves in the discourse. From his piece: "...It would be nice if we didn’t have to resort to such measures, or to buying hormones off the internet. I consider these practices analogous to backalley abortions: the inevitable response to paternalism. People will seek freedom where they can get it, risks be damned."
One response:

He's also gotten a few hundred or so blocks since it was put out.

 

[AssignedEva]

Based system not blindly buying into delusions.

I might have a proper dig through his article and unpack some of his NHS claims over the hols if there's nothing good on TV. But this one jumps out at me. "The system denies that we are reliable bearers of fundamental truths about ourselves."

For the sake of argument, let's assume that's actually correct. And to be fair, even Blanchard feels some AGPs would benefit from transition (@Paper Machete you might find this article interesting as to why people don't tend to make AGP arguments about FTMs).

The question is not "do trans people know that they want to transition". The question is: "Is a patient attempting to access gender affirming care actually transgender?". If someone is having a psychotic episode and demands gender affirming care, are they going to still feel that way once the episode ends? Ollie would argue that this is a stigmatising question that also gatekeeps treatment for trans people with certain mental health conditions. But the reality remains, people with various comorbidities may express a desire to transition and then once they've received treatment for their comorbidity, realise they didn't want to transition and then sue... because they're not reliable bearers of fundamental truth about themselves. I don't know that Ollie ever really talks about detransitioners - I'm sure he'd probably frame it as "trans people detransitioning due to transphobia" or "that never happens" (in fact I think he's tried to argue that the number of detransitioners is so low, that trying to protect detransitioners from themselves is not worthwhile because any barrier harms more trans people). The role of doctors is to assess what the fundamental truth is. If I tell a psychologist I have anxiety and want a valium prescription, the psychologist's job is to consider how severe my anxiety is, and if there are other treatments available that may have less risks than addictive benzodiazepines and so are more likely to be beneficial to my overall health.

This was in his replies:

Very narcy response. He's not fighting the good fight for the trans community - he's seeking revenge for personal grievance. If he's been given his hormones when he wanted, then he would never have worried about "all the trans people dying on waiting lists".

 

[Cr1ms0n_&_C10v3r]

A bloke and another bloke? Fags, simple as.

More or less. I don't think anyone is arguing Toob is legitimately gay in the same way a lifelong exclusively into men normie dude who wants to settle down with a husband is, though. Bisexuality at this point seems to be less of a sexuality, and more of a broad umbrella that encompasses a bunch of perversions and the resulting seeming sexual flexibility such as in the case of GAMPs and AGPs. People who are attracted to both women and men for what they are without any particular sexual perversion don't seem to be the majority at all, especially amongst men.

I get that this makes sense to Ollie, because he has created this bizarro narrative and reality where transness is some sort of immutable trait and the patient always knows what's best for them. I would want to ask him why, exactly, and how far this logic extends. Does it apply to any other kind of elective plastic surgeries and medication? Why or why not?
I don't think this is really about being denied autonomy, and assessing your level of distress/"need" for these things is like the very bare minimum of gatekeeping. The problem is that the NHS is taxpayer funded and you're asking for these things for free. If they aren't medically necessary, why should they be free? It's totally your right to troon out on your own dime, but you can't waste public resources and money on getting breast implants and estradiol because it gives you a stiffy. I'm actually amazed he's been able to spin such a gross and simplistic situation into a big narrative about medical oppression and self determination. Why is this any different from not giving an anorexic liposuction or someone with body dysmorphia a free nose job? I know this is all beating a dead horse by now with him but fucking hell it is SO painfully stupid.

In other news someone has created a new genre of music, Tubecore rave.
https://soundcloud.com/altairsjh/trance-rights-are-human-rights

 

[Chris Konon]

I might have a proper dig through his article and unpack some of his NHS claims over the hols if there's nothing good on TV.

Please do, there is a lot of lunacy to discuss.

Very narcy response. He's not fighting the good fight for the trans community - he's seeking revenge for personal grievance. If he's been given his hormones when he wanted, then he would never have worried about "all the trans people dying on waiting lists".

He mentioned harassing NHS workers about that twice or thrice in his article, and also mentions how he didn't allow his interlocutor to cishetsplain anything. The entitlement makes me MATI, at least he was ignored by DHSC ELEVEN TIMES. That must be causing a huge narcissistic injury.

 

[kazuhiro]

This was in his replies:

Very narcy response. He's not fighting the good fight for the trans community - he's seeking revenge for personal grievance. If he's been given his hormones when he wanted, then he would never have worried about "all the trans people dying on waiting lists".

He's still really sore over getting questioned about what he jacks off to.

He tries the "Skibidi Rizzmas" line again.

Spoiler: Attempted cleavage

In league with Baphomet.

New Kill James Bond episode.

Nabokov for dummies.

 

[Turquoise]

"The system denies that we are reliable bearers of fundamental truths about ourselves."

Boy, I hate the way the women and leftist men write in modern times. What a fucking grotesque arrangement of words that is. Overcooking a sentence like that is a foul perversion of good artistic sense and should be recognized as a minor sex offence in all God fearing lands.

 

[Jondavis2]

"The system denies that we are reliable bearers of fundamental truths about ourselves."

This is one of the funniest statements in modernity, especially because:
The system never stated that you had any fundemental truths, that's solipsism. You have personal truths, which can be aggregated to approximate the "fundemental truth", ala the idea behind democracy.

 

[Paradox Mystic]

"The system denies that we are reliable bearers of fundamental truths about ourselves."

Boy, I hate the way the women and leftist men write in modern times. What a fucking grotesque arrangement of words that is. Overcooking a sentence like that is a foul perversion of good artistic sense and should be recognized as a minor sex offence in all God fearing lands.

They don't want a hospital to tries to give you nuance and alternative perspectives, they want a vending machine that will instantly dispense any surgery or medicine you request. Part of the reason they reject it is because it requires patience and admitting you might be wrong and require a second person who knows more to help you reconsider.

 

[Mudkipcorn]

This is one of the funniest statements in modernity, especially because:
The system never stated that you had any fundemental truths, that's solipsism. You have personal truths, which can be aggregated to approximate the "fundemental truth", ala the idea behind democracy.

It's so dumb. The most obvious retort is to bring up serious psychiatric illnesses like schizophrenia. What if a schizo suffering from the Christ delusion were to come out to the systems that are the Catholic/Orthodox/whatever sect Churches and say "Hey, I'm Jesus and you people aren't recognizing it. Why is no one praying to me and paying homage? You realize by not doing so you are denying that I am a reliable bearer of a fundamental truth about myself?" Should that schizo be taken seriously? The same applies to schizos with all manner of delusions. This argument gives every narcissist an out. They can say that "You call me a selfish asshole, but my fundamental truth is that I am an earnest person who is being victimized."

In less extreme cases, anyone can say 'I am this or that' or 'this or that is correct'. And they will always be correct because what they attest are fundamental truths about themselves.

PT having a master's degree is a fundamental truth that he holds. How can any of us say that he doesn't?

Spoiler

Yes, I understand that he technically has a master's degree by the standards of a certain sub-national education system. I wonder if any graduates from Scottish universities have successfully undertaken Phds or taken up masters-only jobs based solely on their primary university degrees. I expect some probably have

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

He was annoying on bg3. Reminds me there's a guy in veilguard who is one of the shadow dragons yet apparently voiced by a troon. It's disgusting

 

[ghjoigcbn]

Let’s dive into his comparison to pregnancy and pregnancy treatment.

He says transitioning should be like getting pregnant- you can get pregnant whenever you want on your terms. But getting pregnant ia something a woman’s body can naturally do. If someone has infertility, Im guessing there is more of a process to go through than the NHS just saying, oh you want a baby? Here is IVF treatment immediately.

He also makes the argument that transgenderism should be depathologized in the medical system, and follow the model of pregnancy. Basically supporting the process and making it safer until the completion of the process which would be birth/ transition. This doesnt make sense for several reasons, but the most obvious one that comes to mind is that birth is a natural process. Most pregnancies would lead to live births without any intervention at all, but the medical system is there to assist and try to help prevent/ catch any problems that can arise. On the other hand, without the medical system and surgeries and hormones, there is no transition happening. There’s also the importance of reproduction- a society needs future generations of people , but we dont need people living out their weird fetishes by mutilatibg their bodies on the public dime. Especially if those “treatments” make them less likely to contribute to society, not more.

 

[Nigor]

Listening to the die hard kill James bond episode and while it's a very average podcast, at one point someone mentions John McLanes hair being pushed back a few more inches by an explosion and choob said that's what happened to his hair and I thought that was kind of funny

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

He's still really sore over getting questioned about what he jacks off to.

He tries the "Skibidi Rizzmas" line again.
View attachment 6785860

Spoiler: Attempted cleavage

View attachment 6785861
View attachment 6785863

In league with Baphomet.
View attachment 6785864
New Kill James Bond episode.
View attachment 6785865
Nabokov for dummies.
View attachment 6785866

Sylvia Plath would have hated AI god

 

[toobular]

I am feel uncomfortable when we are not about me

 

[Turquoise]

Let’s dive into his comparison to pregnancy and pregnancy treatment.

He says transitioning should be like getting pregnant- you can get pregnant whenever you want on your terms. But getting pregnant ia something a woman’s body can naturally do. If someone has infertility, Im guessing there is more of a process to go through than the NHS just saying, oh you want a baby? Here is IVF treatment immediately.

He also makes the argument that transgenderism should be depathologized in the medical system, and follow the model of pregnancy. Basically supporting the process and making it safer until the completion of the process which would be birth/ transition. This doesnt make sense for several reasons, but the most obvious one that comes to mind is that birth is a natural process. Most pregnancies would lead to live births without any intervention at all, but the medical system is there to assist and try to help prevent/ catch any problems that can arise. On the other hand, without the medical system and surgeries and hormones, there is no transition happening. There’s also the importance of reproduction- a society needs future generations of people , but we dont need people living out their weird fetishes by mutilatibg their bodies on the public dime. Especially if those “treatments” make them less likely to contribute to society, not more.

I have a colleague who is obsessed with some crap stand up comedian called Jeselnik and he showed me a whole section where the guy compares trannyism to pregnancy.

"Are you pregnant/trans?.... It's best not to ask, right?"

"How far along are you?"

Oh, it's a side-splitting routine! I wonder though, does our young maiden Abigail get her philosophies from Netflix now?

 

[PandaChai]

Spoiler: Attempted cleavage

View attachment 6785861
View attachment 6785863

Teeth like a horse, chest like the business end of a trussed up turkey

 

[Frederica Bernkastel]

t would be nice if we didn’t have to resort to such measures, or to buying hormones off the internet.

I mean... it seems like it would be easy to just not be a troon, you know? It's not like you're being forced to be retarded. Realizing you have some agency helps. It is a choice, a bad behavior, one you could correct.

One response:

Destroying ICE is a bad idea, and so is being a troon, so I'm not sure this guy has a great idea on what should be considered "bad." He also is some sort of anarchist retard so it's even doubly true. You can't even talk to retards like this because they block themselves into an internet bubble. That's how they end up adopting really stupid ass beliefs, like his, since there's no push back.

 

[Oliver Onions]

I mean... it seems like it would be easy to just not be a troon, you know? It's not like you're being forced to be retarded. Realizing you have some agency helps. It is a choice, a bad behavior, one you could correct.

And what, be normal like everyone else? That simply will not do. Olly and all his fellows troons have to be troons or else there's nothing special about them; they'd have to earn attention on merit instead of making a constant spectacle of themselves.

 

[kazuhiro]

Checking in on Bluesky:
There was no rest for Abi over the festive period.

There's a double episode of Philosophy Tube due, on Nietzsche.

He took Christmas Eve off and felt awful. Did you realize MOST people take TWO days off a WEEK? Who knew, right?

And, after all that effort, he's now a sleepy girl.

Spoiler: Full image

 

[fax machine]

November Kelly, fka Alice Caldwell-Kelly, fka Alexander Kelly, co-host of Kill James Bond and other podcasts, has, a year and change after giving up hijab, officially broken up with Islam. He is now flirting with Catholicism.

It appears that the "ex who was there for my whole transition" is Christopher Caldwell-Kelly, the black American SF writer once referred to as Alice's husband who appeared in some of his old pre-trans Insta posts. Some time back, when Alice became November, he dropped the Caldwell from his digital footprint. Strangely Christopher has kept the Kelly. They still interact from time to time on Twitter. Alice mentioned the divorce recently and confirmed that Christopher is, as speculated by some in this thread, trans:

The "new wife" is Gwen @POISONOMICON, who tagged along to some KJB liveshows and features regularly in Alice's posts — though one must keep in mind when hearing about "wives" from this lot that they use the term not legally but expressively, to signify their undying love and devotion to all members of their long-distance T4T polycules.

Relationship drama aside — run of the mill stuff for their circle — the turn to Catholicism is funny to me. How long did the Muslim phase last? five years? All spent insisting upon his sincerity, posting nonstop about his adventures as a trans woman in arcane exotic Islam, drawing the ire of (real) Muslim (real) women with his fetishism but sticking to the bit nevertheless... then he bought a hair transplant with his podcast earnings, ditched the hijab after a year of recovery, and is now looking for a different culturally conservative religion to post about for angst and edge. lol.

Muslim, woman, wife: all these identifications come so cheaply to him and to his subculture more broadly, untethered from anything that anyone less online would call real. As a Muslim he never entered a mosque. As a woman he is a man. As a wife he is probably not married to someone with multiple "wives" already. Let's not rehash the purported lesbianism.

Spoiler: more

Based on his posting this spring, I don't think it unreasonable to suggest that his interest in Catholicism was motivated at least a bit by its voguishness online.