US US Politics General 2 - Discussion of President Trump and other politicians

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Should be a wild four years.

Helpful links for those who need them:

Current members of the House of Representatives
https://www.house.gov/representatives

Current members of the Senate
https://www.senate.gov/senators/

Current members of the US Supreme Court
https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/biographies.aspx

Members of the Trump Administration
https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/
 
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For the erection of tariff walls has the same effect as the erection of real walls. It is significant that the protectionists habitually use the language of warfare. They talk of ‘repelling an invasion’ of foreign products. And the means they suggest in the fiscal field are like those of the battlefield. The tariff barriers that are put up to repel this invasion are like the tank traps, trenches, and barbed-wire entanglements created to repel or slow down attempted invasion by a foreign army.
For someone arguing against tariffs, you sure make them sound based
 
Tariff Bad

I may not be a big city slicker economist but I know a thing or two about stagnation and wage depression and giving too much power out to others.

You know what's really unethical? Relying whole cloth and basing your entire economy around getting every last little nicknack and infrastructure and system critical thing from a nation of "not technically" slaves employed by a myriad of unaccountable chinese con artist corporations and market fixers.
That and it's just bad practice to regularly and freely hand foreign nationals who hate you the keys to your kingdom.

You never want to be in, much less put YOURSELF in a position where you can be shut down with no recourse besides begging and getting an even shittier deal at the drop of a hat if they are feeling froggy because you don't actually control a damn thing you need to function anymore.

Which you should damn well know if you're actually a German/EU resident and the gas bill went up after your leadership laughed off a six year "I told you so" in the making when you got far too reliant on disloyal and self serving foreign powers to heat your very homes. It's not just bad business, it's harmful to the viability and longevity of your nation.

Thus and so tariffs come into the picture when you're planning on cutting the cord or at least getting a more favorable set of terms and conditions.

That and what is the proposed alternative besides let it rot as is or shut it down entirely? Because it's not particularly wise to go full emergency brake while said fairweather trade friend is still attached to you like a parasite and has your balls in a vice. Nor is it good optics or politically viable to full stop declare and blurt out like a fucking ape

"No trade with them ever immediately!"

But you CAN put the brakes on and hit people in the wallet to slow burn discourage it. So you can pivot to a more desirable position and outcome.
And give yourself time to restablish yourself and get a foothold back and get your own shit together.

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A multitude of other nations are already doing it in a one way lopsided trade deal to us anyway from automotives to raw materials to consumer goods. And we and many other nations already have our exports specially taxxed and tariffed from the EU to Angola even if they call it by any other name or call it a tax and you're acting like the whole thing is some wild unprecedented policy and not the current reality that's been around forever elsewhere.

As far as using tariffs as a corrective measure to getting in too deep and losing the rudder on your own economic stability goes...
Is it perfect? Fuck no, nothing's perfect. Is it great? No, it's not at all. Is it the best chip you can put on the table while you still have leverage and you've let things get this bad already?

Yeah, kinda.
And if it's viewed as unfair and going against the spirit of the "Free Market" because it should always always be super honest and organically competitive?

Then I'll tell you full bore to your face that's naive pie in the sky bullshit. One bad actor in the network queers the whole deal for everyone and global trade has no shortage of em. Because no actual shit if we want to treat our citizens like something more than cattle and speculative market units... Then we can't "compete" in the race tto the bottom with the places that have zero qualms with treating theirs like it. And we shouldn't be basing our standards and price points on that as a metric. Because you end up in a situation like we are now or worse.

IE: Being steered entirely by the short sighted smash and grab mindset where megacorporate retards forget you still need a prosperous population that if not believes - Still thinks there's some kind of a future to save for. And a functional enterprise base. Both of which who ideally can afford to buy the goods and services you provide, and their money has to still be actually worth something if you want to turn a profit beyond that mysterious and unknown day called "Tomorrow" and well beyond the first "But number went up!" Quarter. Because you can't outsource everyone's jobs and majority import materials and goods then wonder with feigned shock where your consumers all went. That's fucking retarded.


I'd even go as far as to argue the very foundation of modern trade models and the global market for luxury goods and services was quite literally only made possible BECAUSE your average citizen in the first world (on average at least) suddenly had more than enough money to go beyond simply surviving and putting food in their mouths after wartime was over and business was booming circa the 1950s.

This all isn't necessarily aimed at you, more also venting my bile towards the gaggle of people who only looked up the definition of the word "Tariff" after it came out of orange man's mouth.

But by and large, the vehement "Tariffs will ruin us" chicken littles always strike me as people parroting a talking point to epicly own their political rivals at least, and at worst are willingly home front blind profiteers, who - for the sake of unfettered global trade are more than willing and happy to to sell their countrymen out in the aformentioned mentioned race to the bottom.

Simply because at the moment it's not affecting THEM and they can blissfully ignore the long term... For now. But at home a yucky tariff makes their toys cost more in the short term and abroad their shorting and pump and dumps and wheelings and dealings suffer so they get pissed.

Edit: Fixed my graphic not uploading due to troon induced DDOS lag spike no doubt
 
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It is logically necessary and inevitable that consumers are being exploited by tariffs. Every attempt to debunk or disprove this is futile.
I understand the concept of economic efficiencies and their relation to free trade. You're missing my overriding point: the burden of a slight economic inefficiency that is to the benefit of the American middle class outweighs the benefits of a slight economic efficiency that is destructive to the American middle class. If you're not willing to pay a little bit more to support Americans, then that's a moral failing before any economic considerations should even be considered. That's why I only buy American-made shoes—they're more expensive, but they last a lot longer and support American workers. And I try and do the same with other products, whenever I can.

The global free trade experiment has no doubt produced a cavalcade of cheap foreign-made items that enable consumers to buy more things. And it has certainly resulted, to some extent, in countries being able to specialize in more efficiently produced products, then sell those products globally, resulting in savings for everyone. But the effects of that experiment have also destroyed whole swathes of manufacturing and hollowed out huge parts of our country, resulting in entire regions that are economically and literally depressed. Why shouldn't that be put on the economic scales—what are the lives of thousands of young men dead from opioid abuse in the Rust Belt worth when balanced against the savings of cheaper vinyl flooring? What productivity has been lost from women in Appalachia whose only economic escape after all the industry has left is to hope to make it big on OnlyFans? Other countries take advantage of these policies to screw over American families and youth, and I frankly don't care if that means some NPC can get slave-made Nikes from China for $20 less.

Consumers go for cheaper items because most consumers are thoughtless or, giving them the benefit of the doubt, want to spend less. But most consumers also are purchasing items they don't actually need, because the underlying driver of globalized free trade is not economic efficiencies but conspicuous consumerism. Granted, that's a cultural problem. But if tariffs force some soy-drinking NPC to put off purchasing their next funko pop because it costs twice as much, I don't care. Nor do I think the nation's economy is actually better off because twice as many funko pops are being sold at a cheaper price, even though that's what the pure statistics and consumerist models of success would suggest.

Again, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if there was fair trade as equals. But the countries that undersell and poach American industries generally don't consider us equals, but rather a granary to pillage that's under the control of uncultured barbarians. And all the while, it's our country subsidizing their entire sociopolitical system. It's insult upon injury.

Tariffs can be done intelligently and they can be done brutishly. If they're done brutishly, then your concerns are not entirely misplaced. But that doesn't mean tariffs as a concept are stupid. We're not living in Adam Smith's ideal of capitalist society where the savings from cheaper consumption are put toward greater economic and civic investments. We're in a world where conspicuous consumerism rules, and tariffs that impede conspicuous consumerism sourced from foreign=made products are absolutely fine with me even if they create the economic inefficiencies you're decrying.
 
But how and WHY are tariffs bad? The point of tariffs is to remain competitive in the global market for the benefit of the host country. If businesses will outsource jobs and products but still expect the host country to pay full price, the tariff will have them reconsider their choices. Encourage domestic trade and business to strengthen domestic economy. What's wrong with that?
Maybe I'm misinterpreting this out of tiredness, but
If a foreign producer can manufacture AND SHIP something for $8 to the USA, and the same something could be produced in the USA for $10, as an earlier poster gave an example for, how exactly does the USA imposing a tariff on the foreign producer of that something make the USA more competitive in the global market to the benefit of the US?
Like, maybe I'm not seeing something you are, but that first sentence is just plainly insane to me.

"Encourage domestic trade and business to strengthen domestic economy."
This here contains multiple unrelated claims and logic.
As in, "tariffs encourage domestic trade", "tariffs encourage domestic business", "tariffs strengthen domestic economy".
None of these are true. Or can you logically explain how exactly?
 
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