Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[Bob Barbas]

I'll never get tired of seeing people endlessly parrot the narrative that the OT is only good because of Fox and Lucas' team keeping him in line, and that it was the rest of the team who are actually responsible for thr OT coming out as well as it did.

I do think there is SOME merit to the idea. But of course none of it would have been possible without Lucas.

 

[William Murderface]

Should come with a warning. The whole documentary is pure Gen X and Millennial generation nerd cringe and in the worst way possible. Just the sheer amount of hubris and entitlement. Just about every single person in that documentary deserves to have the disney era. Like lol, when Neil Gaiman is the most reasonable person in your documentary you know how low it can get. Like none of these people deserve creatives at all and it is very understandable why George Lucas no longer wanted anything to do with these people. Is George Perfect? No, but he made his art the way he wanted to and you are not entitled to anything else. You are all the reason why good things cannot be made anymore.

The biggest thing George has done that irked me was his hypocrisy towards colorizing old B&W films and saying "films aren't finished, they're only abandoned and once a film is out there it shouldn't be touched" and then multiple editions of the OT and PT because he couldn't stop tinkering with them and would just say "sorry you fell in love with unfinished films but I need to fix them" especially when the fixes made everything worse and he had to keep tinkering with the movies to try to fix his fix (e.g. Han shooting Greedo).

The OT wasn't perfect. There was clunky dialog, bad acting, bad SFX, bad characters, all the things people bashed the PT for, but we gave the OT a pass because we saw them through the eyes of kids and the PT through the eyes of adults. But it was his tory to tell. I just wish that he respected his own position and stopped messing with them once they were released to the public.

 

[Ghostse]

I'll never get tired of seeing people endlessly parrot the narrative that the OT is only good because of Fox and Lucas' team keeping him in line, and that it was the rest of the team who are actually responsible for thr OT coming out as well as it did.

the dude cannot write dialog, he's not very good at directing actors (and that's a nearly universal complaint). The OT is still mostly Lucas, but it wouldn't be as well remembered as it is if Lucas hadn't been made to accept changes made by others.

If some one makes delicious cakes but their buttercream icing tastes like rotten ass and they can't pipe flowers to save their lives, and was forced to allow someone else to handle these things its not inaccurate to say "that cake is only as good as it was because peope who were competent were allowed to fix the short the short comings of the chef", nor does that change that the chef made delicious cake and did the majority of the work.

 

[Mr. Racewar1488]

I'll never get tired of seeing people endlessly parrot the narrative that the OT is only good because of Fox and Lucas' team keeping him in line, and that it was the rest of the team who are actually responsible for thr OT coming out as well as it did.

Lucas is very similar to Gene Roddenberry. Yeah, their first big thing was great and mostly their idea but when they came back years later (the Prequels for George, and the first season of TNG for Gene) they were kinda shit because they didn't have to listen to anyone else. Lucas needs someone to help him with dialogue because he's probably on the spectrum and Gene's brain was fried from decades of drug use and boning every woman you saw in the Original Series.

 

[Bob Barbas]

I liken Lucas to Kojima myself in that they come up with some great and cool ideas on their own, but without somebody there to filter those ideas and play tard wrangler more or less it's easy for them to get carried away and for the idea to be executed poorly.

In Kojima's case, just look at his work while he was at Konami such as the Metal Gear series... (Minus 5 obviously. I think at that point they stopped caring and just wanted Kojimbo out the door as fast as possible.) then look at Death Stranding. A game Kojima made as the head of his own company.
It's not that someone else came up with all of this and Lucas is getting unwarranted credit or something. I believe the truth is closer to "Lucas comes up with incredible ideas but needs at least one competent person to filter them through so they can really shine."

 

[Ghostse]

I liken Lucas to Kojima myself in that they come up with some great and cool ideas on their own, but without somebody there to filter those ideas and play tard wrangler more or less it's easy for them to get carried away and for the idea to be executed poorly.

In Kojima's case, just look at his work while he was at Konami such as the Metal Gear series... (Minus 5 obviously. I think at that point they stopped caring and just wanted Kojimbo out the door as fast as possible.) then look at Death Stranding. A game Kojima made as the head of his own company.
It's not that someone else came up with all of this and Lucas is getting unwarranted credit or something. I believe the truth is closer to "Lucas comes up with incredible ideas but needs at least one competent person to filter them through so they can really shine."

Kojima is not an inapt comparison however the issue is he is Japanese and they are all insane autists.

I'm also just going to say that Lucas' foibles aren't unique to Lucas. Its pretty much any creative given access to vast resources and the ability to turtle into their own little sperg hole.

 

[Screamer_2]

Jaws is a good movie despite of Spielberg because the shark puppet didn't work.

That vibe.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

As a little extra, Hot Waffles' tastefully-titled tune - "George Lucas Raped Our Childhood"!

The guy in the plaid looks like he failed an audition for Smashmouth and the guy with the tattoos is definitely dead from Monkey Pox by now.

 

[William Murderface]

Lucas is very similar to Gene Roddenberry. Yeah, their first big thing was great and mostly their idea but when they came back years later (the Prequels for George, and the first season of TNG for Gene) they were kinda shit because they didn't have to listen to anyone else. Lucas needs someone to help him with dialogue because he's probably on the spectrum and Gene's brain was fried from decades of drug use and boning every woman you saw in the Original Series.

The problem with Lucas is he needs someone like a Gary Kurtz to say "George, that doesn't work." Unfortunately, Lucas seems to not want people around who aren't yes-men. He clashed with Kurtz over the direction of Jedi, how the films were becoming more commercial and toy friendly, the tone of the film, and the cost of Empire and so he and Lucas fell out. Between that and McCallum never saying "no" and everyone who shows any backbone seem to be shown the door, Lucas has no brake. It's why we end up with stuff like Jar Jar and Red Tails and Crystal Skull. He just needs people he can rely on to tell him he's in the wrong, but he doesn't want them around.

 

[Ghostse]

The problem with Lucas is he needs someone like a Gary Kurtz to say "George, that doesn't work." Unfortunately, Lucas seems to not want people around who aren't yes-men. He clashed with Kurtz over the direction of Jedi, how the films were becoming more commercial and toy friendly, the tone of the film, and the cost of Empire and so he and Lucas fell out. Between that and McCallum never saying "no" and everyone who shows any backbone seem to be shown the door, Lucas has no brake. It's why we end up with stuff like Jar Jar and Red Tails and Crystal Skull. He just needs people he can rely on to tell him he's in the wrong, but he doesn't want them around.

Or at least a Harrison Ford to tell him "your dialogue sucks".

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The problem with Lucas is he needs someone like a Gary Kurtz to say "George, that doesn't work." Unfortunately, Lucas seems to not want people around who aren't yes-men. He clashed with Kurtz over the direction of Jedi, how the films were becoming more commercial and toy friendly, the tone of the film, and the cost of Empire and so he and Lucas fell out. Between that and McCallum never saying "no" and everyone who shows any backbone seem to be shown the door, Lucas has no brake. It's why we end up with stuff like Jar Jar and Red Tails and Crystal Skull. He just needs people he can rely on to tell him he's in the wrong, but he doesn't want them around.

The thing is, whenever Lucas tried to get one, not only did they turn him down, but they told him that Star Wars was his baby and he should take full control. So not only was he told "no", but the people he asked gave him an ego boost.

Or at least a Harrison Ford to tell him "your dialogue sucks".

Everything that came out of Palpatine and Dooku's mouths was good dialogue. So the man at least had an inkling of what good dialogue is.

 

[Bob Barbas]

Everything that came out of Palpatine and Dooku's mouths was good dialogue. So the man at least had an inkling of what good dialogue is.

You do have to question however how much of it was Lucas' own writing and how much of it was due to input from the actors.

One very specific example that comes to mind is that originally at the end of his fight with Anakin in Episode III, Dooku was supposed to beg for mercy before Anakin killed him. But when Christopher Lee saw the script he went to Lucas and told him he felt that Dooku would be far too prideful to do that even as he was about to die and so the scene was changed.
I wouldn't be surprised if stuff like that happened a lot behind the scenes and was just not see as important enough to mention them all.

EDIT: An OT example I can list is something that came out recently I think? Honestly unsure but I heard it in a short clip of Harrison Ford talking about being Han Solo insanely enough. He was talking about the carbon freezing scene and apparently Lucas wanted Han to reply to Leia's "I love you" with "I love you too." but Harrison thought "He wouldn't say that." so he decided to say what he thought would be the last fucking thing any woman would want to hear in that situation. Which is how we got "I know."

 

[Ghostse]

The thing is, whenever Lucas tried to get one, not only did they turn him down, but they told him that Star Wars was his baby and he should take full control. So not only was he told "no", but the people he asked gave him an ego boost.


Everything that came out of Palpatine and Dooku's mouths was good dialogue. So the man at least had an inkling of what good dialogue is.

Ian was able to make Palps work because he understood the character as basically Ming the Merciless and read the lines as such.

Christopher Lee is just that good. He also I'm sure also had the cojones to go to lucas and say "this is utterly retarded, do it like this" or just read the lines like how he figured they should go and being he's Christopher Lee he was right.

 

[Captain Syrup]

I do think there is SOME merit to the idea. But of course none of it would have been possible without Lucas.

Founder’s syndrome. Let somebody else mess it up for a change!

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Ian was able to make Palps work because he understood the character as basically Ming the Merciless and read the lines as such.

That, and the role Lucas wrote for him was a classic Shakespearean "Honest Iago" type.

Christopher Lee is just that good.

Of course he is. You can't go wrong with Space Dracula.

He also I'm sure also had the cojones to go to lucas and say "this is utterly retarded, do it like this" or just read the lines like how he figured they should go and being he's Christopher Lee he was right.

Proof? The only change Lee suggested was with Dooku's death. And Lucas rolled with it.

One very specific example that comes to mind is that originally at the end of his fight with Anakin in Episode III, Dooku was supposed to beg for mercy before Anakin killed him. But when Christopher Lee saw the script he went to Lucas and told him he felt that Dooku would be far too prideful to do that even as he was about to die and so the scene was changed.

It goes to show that Lucas was open to suggestions. The only thing is how abrupt Anakin and Padme's dialogue are, and given that one is a child queen and the other is a mentally-stunted teen, it made sense.

 

[William Murderface]

The "I hate sand" scene is two very broken people trying to be normal.

Padme's a child queen who has given up any sense of a normal adolescence to be a politician that actually fights for the good of her people. she simply has no time to be a normal girl or young woman.

Anakin's never had a chance to grow to be a normal young man because his teenage years were stuck in essentially a monastery. He's had Padme on his mind the whole time, and I suspect in no small part because he was never allowed a normal teenage relationship with girls.

Throw them together and they clearly want each other but don't know how. Remember how awkward you were in high school trying to be cool and debonaire, but in looking back you can see just how awkward and pathetic you were? That's where Anakin is. He's trying to sound like he's an awesome guy but he's just fumbling the whole time. Padme knows it's wrong to get involved with him for many reasons, but he's got her moister than an oyster. But she's also fumbling because she has no life experience to fall back on. Even after he confesses to killing the sand people and she's thinking "I'm in love with a human time bomb" and even after the scene where they say they both know it's wrong and can't let it go on, she still says when they're being led into the arena to be executed that she loves him. She simply doesn't know how to say "no" and mean it because her background meant she didn't have a normal childhood.

They were both set up for failure by their lives. They were simply never going to have a "happily ever after" story because of her political life and his Jedi life. Once she got pregnant, Anakin's days as a Jedi were numbered. He couldn't have her and the Jedi and would never give her up.

The PT was very much a Greek tragedy just like the OT was very much the archtypical Hero's Journey.

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

The only remote possible chance Anakin had was with Qui-Gon not being killed and not seriously injured in the dual with Darth Maul. As Qui-Gon understood what would be need to done for Anakin. As soon as Qui-Gon die, Anakin's fate was already sealed.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The "I hate sand" scene is two very broken people trying to be normal.

Padme's a child queen who has given up any sense of a normal adolescence to be a politician that actually fights for the good of her people. she simply has no time to be a normal girl or young woman.

Anakin's never had a chance to grow to be a normal young man because his teenage years were stuck in essentially a monastery. He's had Padme on his mind the whole time, and I suspect in no small part because he was never allowed a normal teenage relationship with girls.

Throw them together and they clearly want each other but don't know how. Remember how awkward you were in high school trying to be cool and debonaire, but in looking back you can see just how awkward and pathetic you were? That's where Anakin is. He's trying to sound like he's an awesome guy but he's just fumbling the whole time. Padme knows it's wrong to get involved with him for many reasons, but he's got her moister than an oyster. But she's also fumbling because she has no life experience to fall back on. Even after he confesses to killing the sand people and she's thinking "I'm in love with a human time bomb" and even after the scene where they say they both know it's wrong and can't let it go on, she still says when they're being led into the arena to be executed that she loves him. She simply doesn't know how to say "no" and mean it because her background meant she didn't have a normal childhood.

They were both set up for failure by their lives. They were simply never going to have a "happily ever after" story because of her political life and his Jedi life. Once she got pregnant, Anakin's days as a Jedi were numbered. He couldn't have her and the Jedi and would never give her up.

The PT was very much a Greek tragedy just like the OT was very much the archtypical Hero's Journey.

My point exactly. People who complain about that being bad dialogue never checked the characterization of the people saying it.

Someone like Obi-Wan, Jango, Mace, Palpatine, and Dooku can talk like regular people. They aren't stunted, broken teens with the world forced unto their backs. Their dialogue sounds normal, whereas Anakin's dialogue sounds awkward, but that's on purpose, because his character is awkwardly trying to walk the path of the Light while burdened with hormones and the inner darkness in his heart. Meanwhile, someone like Kenobi, Palpatine, Fett, Windu, or Dooku already had their consciences be clear and know whose side they're on, so they talk normally because they don't have the mental issues or inexperience that Padme and Anakin have.

 

[Rome's rightful successor]

The biggest thing George has done that irked me was his hypocrisy towards colorizing old B&W films and saying "films aren't finished, they're only abandoned and once a film is out there it shouldn't be touched" and then multiple editions of the OT and PT because he couldn't stop tinkering with them and would just say "sorry you fell in love with unfinished films but I need to fix them" especially when the fixes made everything worse and he had to keep tinkering with the movies to try to fix his fix (e.g. Han shooting Greedo).

To be fair George was more against Ted Turner and other heads going back and colorizing old films who's directors had long passed then being against directors themselves tinkering with their own movies after the original release.

 

[LovisXVI]

To be fair George was more against Ted Turner and other heads going back and colorizing old films who's directors had long passed then being against directors themselves tinkering with their own movies after the original release.

Which is incredibly true, "upscaling" often fucks with the art design, and just adding color to a black and white film is often bad.