Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[teriyakiburns]

Trump really, really loves Putin.

Loves him so much that he wanted to increase sanctions on Russia and threatened to introduce russia-specific tariffs and taxes just last month. Why else do you think Putin is being such a cocksucker? He knows Trump doesn't do half measures. Putin could rely on "just a small incursion" Biden to inch out a pittance in aid and sanctions while making ineffectual noises about peace, but he knows Trump will go full ham. Putin wants him to go ham in his direction, so he's being a snivelling arselicker, but that's not an act he can keep up for very long.

Meanwhile, Trump has been consistently talking about post-war deals with Ukraine for resources in currently Russian-occupied areas. It's obvious that Zelensky's victory plan was workshopped with Trump because they've both been running the same messaging for weeks now. You'd have to be a blind man to look at what Trump is actually doing vis-a-vis both countries - not what media personalities and vatniggers say he is doing - and interpret it as anything other than bringing Russia to heel.

 

[Snekposter]

Loves him so much that he wanted to increase sanctions on Russia and threatened to introduce russia-specific tariffs and taxes just last month. Why else do you think Putin is being such a cocksucker? He knows Trump doesn't do half measures. Putin could rely on "just a small incursion" Biden to inch out a pittance in aid and sanctions while making ineffectual noises about peace, but he knows Trump will go full ham. Putin wants him to go ham in his direction, so he's being a snivelling arselicker, but that's not an act he can keep up for very long.

Meanwhile, Trump has been consistently talking about post-war deals with Ukraine for resources in currently Russian-occupied areas. It's obvious that Zelensky's victory plan was workshopped with Trump because they've both been running the same messaging for weeks now. You'd have to be a blind man to look at what Trump is actually doing vis-a-vis both countries - not what media personalities and vatniggers say he is doing - and interpret it as anything other than bringing Russia to heel.

Trump should take up being a magician as a hobby whenever he retires since he's one of the world masters of misdirection and sleight-of-hand.

 

[World in Scarlet]

what Trump is actually doing

Having the SecDef make a public statement that Ukraine will not join NATO, a major Russian demand, right before publishing some of the most servile prose ever, confirming that the US and Russia negotiated without Ukrainian involvement, another Russian demand.

IDK why you constantly insist that it's the media that paints Trump in a certain light, you only need to look at what he's doing and saying to come to these conclusions.
Nothing he says or does ever hints at some kind of 4D chess, he says what crosses his mind when it does and then has jannies clean it up for him. Look at the way he deals with Canada and Greenland. It's the same pattern of idiotic bullshit that harms the United States and allies without redeeming qualities. Remember when he threatened to tariff the shit out of Taiwanese chip exports? He then proceeded to allow TikTok to continue to psyop American citizens and harvest their user data, and reopened a loophole for imports from China he had apparently accidentally closed before. He also shut down an investigation into the big Chinese cyber attack.
Now CRINK lover Gabbard is his DNI.

Trump has an incredible obvious pattern of praising enemies and attacking allies and if your analysis does not account for that, it looks like quote mining.

 

[Fuck It We'll Do It Live]

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Edit: Oh yeah looks like Kellogg is missing from the list of negotiators.

At least hawkish on Russia Marco Rubio is part of the team.

 

[Verdun_Salient]

The conversation with Zelensky is done, seems we are getting a meeting on Friday. The historian in me notes that it will take place in Munich, I only hope that it is better than the last time peace was discussed in Munich

Link, Archive

 

[No. 7 cat]

Hegseth's speech basically suggests Putin will be allowed to keep its illegimate gains from the actual start of the war in 2014 plus a bit more too, ensuring that an eastern stop of Ukraine will stink of death and fail for a good more years.

No NATO membership either. Even if NATO forces are in Ukraine, it isn't wholly clear that'll mean much if Putin engages in provocation. Relevantly, Trump has been harassing Denmark which has been a loyal and contributing ally to the US suffering notable losses in Afghanistan in proportional terms. It's said of Afghanistan that many village elders withheld support from the US and allies as they knew they'd be gone?, which happened after Trump negotiated a bad deal with the Talebs that Biden foolishly implemented. A contrast can be made with how Gorbachev after withdrawing from Afghanistan continued supporting the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan whose forces and rule of the cities survived until Yeltsin cut off aid, after which it lasted c. 6 months. The US has a tendency to leave allies high and dry.

The Budapest Accord of 1992 saw the US, PRC and others provide security guarantees in return for Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan giving up nukes. Belarus is a Russian satrapy while Kazakhstan might see Putin wanting to call in a supposed debt for the CSTO saving the Kazakh Pres in Jan '22 (just before invading Ukraine) and to try claim the heavily Russian north. It's likely Ukraine will use its reactors and scientific ability to create a deniable but understood nuclear deterrent, like Israel. International pledges are worthless.

However, while the Hegseth speech seems weak, Putin has wild claims to nearly half Ukraine, which don't seem to be tactical gambits to keep what he holds. We will see.

 

[World in Scarlet]

Note that spineless lickspittle and obese conman fetishist JD Vance will co-lead the delegation.
It seems Kellogg is out for good?

 

[Hooked on phobics]

I have confidence trump can do it, but it will involve compromises ukraine WILL NOT like. Probably giving some land up which has been contested for almost a decade anyway

 

[Null]

one of the dumbest fucking wars ever with a million white men dead

 

[Dead Lion]

Trump has an incredible obvious pattern of praising enemies and attacking allies and if your analysis does not account for that, it looks like quote mining.

Well most American allies have been treating America like a teenager does his parents, constantly going against American advice and then running back and begging for help when something inevitably goes wrong. At the end of the day our little union is completely irrelevant without the USA and we will get rolled over by Russia the second NATO ceases to exist. European leaders need to be either replaced or brought to heel.

Also if this deal manages to materialise then it’s not going to last a decade, so Ukrainian membership in NATO would mean death to everyone here eligible for conscription.

 

[Snekposter]

The conversation with Zelensky is done, seems we are getting a meeting on Friday. The historian in me notes that it will take place in Munich, I only hope that it is better than the last time peace was discussed in Munich
View attachment 6974291
Link, Archive

Did anyone else notice he's using the Ukrainian version of Zelensky/Zelenskyy's name?

 

[teriyakiburns]

I have confidence trump can do it, but it will involve compromises ukraine WILL NOT like. Probably giving some land up which has been contested for almost a decade anyway

It might involve giving up the claim to Crimea. Zelensky's suggestion of a straight swap of captured kursk territory for the territory Russia seized in the current "operation" will almost certainly be part of the proposal - one Russia likely won't countenance. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess, but Putin's intransigence and belief Russian should own everything east of the dniepr will likely cause a collapse of the talks in any case.

 

[Snekposter]

It might involve giving up the claim to Crimea. Zelensky's suggestion of a straight swap of captured kursk territory for the territory Russia seized in the current "operation" will almost certainly be part of the proposal - one Russia likely won't countenance. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess, but Putin's intransigence and belief Russian should own everything east of the dniepr will likely cause a collapse of the talks in any case.

Wouldn't surprise me if they show up with some reasonable, practical proposals for something that can at least try and resemble a lasting peace, Putin thinks that's the "hardball" offer he can haggle them down from to get something great for him but bad for Ukraine, and then they just counteroffer with Ukrainian membership in NATO if he's going to start being a dick like that.

 

[Hooked on phobics]

It might involve giving up the claim to Crimea. Zelensky's suggestion of a straight swap of captured kursk territory for the territory Russia seized in the current "operation" will almost certainly be part of the proposal - one Russia likely won't countenance. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess, but Putin's intransigence and belief Russian should own everything east of the dniepr will likely cause a collapse of the talks in any case.

I'm not super familiar with specifics of crimia, but the places which have been a civil war zone for close to a DECADE would be best to either give to russia / seperated as a new state. They wanted nothing to do with ukraine for a long ass time long before the war, and trying to stop the war and expecting those zones to JUST obey ukraine after 10 years of fighting would be fucking retarded.

I think it would be better for every party involve to just give it up considering that information, lest shit reboil because irrate locals still hating ukraine govt, leading to ukraine govt extreme force, leading to russia response again.
Like I said, ukraine the state wont like it, but its the better solution.

 

[EyeGuy]

one of the dumbest fucking wars ever with a million white men dead

Have you reflected on the fact that white men being willing to slaughter each other in such numbers maybe means your worldview is completely retarded?

 

[National Defense Advocate]

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Does nobody have the heart to tell him this war started in 2014?

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

It might involve giving up the claim to Crimea. Zelensky's suggestion of a straight swap of captured kursk territory for the territory Russia seized in the current "operation" will almost certainly be part of the proposal - one Russia likely won't countenance. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess, but Putin's intransigence and belief Russian should own everything east of the dniepr will likely cause a collapse of the talks in any case.

Crimea is a tough one because of how its control transferred. Russia has an extremely strong claim to it on historical grounds.

 

[R00T]

I think it would be better for every party involve to just give it up considering that information, lest shit reboil because irrate locals still hating ukraine govt, leading to ukraine govt extreme force, leading to russia response again.
Like I said, ukraine the state wont like it, but its the better solution.

most of the surveys of these territories have shown a flip on their opinion between Russia and Ukraine. For the last 3 years their "based Russian brothers" have been bombing their homes and terrorizing them, kidnapping children and sending them to Russia in a Native American Anglicization school equivalent system. The territory is ravaged and will never recover. If given to Russia it simply won't thrive (The Russian is incapable of fixing it's disasters), if left to Ukraine it will need significant outside support to rebuild.

People trying to make it seem like Crimea is happy with how this war has been going are tourists that haven't paid attention once for 3 years. On top of this the "pro-Russian population" is people who have lived in the region for less than a century, planted their during the territorial occupation by the USSR. If Texas announced it wanted to be Mexican again should the US capitulate?

 

[Mound Dweller]

>Russians
>White
Select one
The east has never been a part of Western Civilisation, westoids feeling any sort of kinship with anything past the Don is lunacy.

Crimea is a tough one because of how its control transferred. Russia has an extremely strong claim to it on historical grounds.

It's not hard at all, it's de jure Ukrainian clay. Rozzia has as much a "legitimate" claim to it as Germany does to Kaliningrad or France to Alegria. yeah there's "self determination" to take into account but that's a bit of a meme when little green men are at play.

 

[The Man With No Name]

I'm cautiously optimistic about peace terms, but largely, the war has to stop. No one was winning. Ukraine could kill 10,000,000 more Russians from every far flung oblast and the lines would stay the same.

It does sound like when Trump is referencing the death tolls, he's using the US/Ukraine numbers and not doctored Russian MOD numbers, too.